"6th graders in the richest school districts are 4 grade levels ahead of children in the poorest districts."

zoobie · May 5, 2016

Difference in culture can permeate deeply. Families who live together multi-generationally have a greater support system and more flexibility than single families or single parents on their own.

umsami · May 5, 2016

Re: Hamtramck. It is basically surrounded by Detroit and Highland Park. It used to be known for being Polish, but has now switched to more Muslims (Arab-American, Bengali, Yemeni, Pakistani, etc.) (Not necessarily first generation either. Arabs have been big in the Detroit area since the 1920s. We have a big Chaldean community, too.) In general, it wasn't regarded as scary as the other cities.

One of the big issues Hamtramck schools have had is keeping the Arab and Muslim students in their public schools.

1.9k · May 5, 2016

I wonder what the difference in grade levels of the average parents in these districts is.

Murphy101 · May 5, 2016

Why aren't more parents doing those things?

I'd bet donuts those Asian, Hispanic/Latino families who are doing it also have one or more of the following:

Supportive extended family that live nearby

Married parents

At least one parent with a reliable and or flexible work schedule

A relative who is home when the child is home to keep the child on track

A relative with the ability to network to find out what opportunities are available

A kid who isn't resenting being in school all day and having to do it more afterwards for hours.

A kid who doesn't feel like he is just too stupid to learn or he would have already fingered it out after spending hours at school.

Every single one of the things mentioned by Arcadia predicate on the above already existing.

And on the school being supportive or at least the relatives not caving to the school pressures.

When I dropped off and picked up my kid every day, in kindergarten no less, the teachers really didn't like it. They claimed I was being over protective and helicoptering. It annoyed them. And they undermined me by coaching my kid to say he was a big kid and didn't need mom or dad to do that for him.

When my kid was struggling bc he had nothing to do in class, the teacher told me point blank it wasn't her fault I had sent him to private school the year before and he'd just have to bide his time until the rest of the class caught up. There's not a doubt in my mind that she was also telling the students that were way behind to not worry because eventually it'd all even out. (To no one getting much education, but let's not quibble over that I guess.) We were actively told to not give tutoring outside of class bc it would just confuse the student(s). Total BS, but the truth is it made it harder for the teacher to manage the class that was already hard to manage as it was.

People talk on this forum every day about how it's a full time job to get their kids any help, in academics or in medical needs. And most on this forum are somewhere in the middle classes socioeconomics, married, and have a sahp.

Now try to imagine how to navigate it when you have none of those three things, and several other strikes against you.

It's not as simple as if you love your kid, make it happen.

I agree there's lots of social changes I think we need to strongly encourage that would help prevent these problems.

But we have to meet people where they are too.

Telling a woman she should have gotten married and made sure her child was wanted doesn't do a damn thing to help the single mom right now. (Never mind that we shouldn't presume unplanned means unwanted either. And that marriages end all too often. I'm all for marriage and then babies, but it's not some miracle solution either.)

And we need to stop presuming successful students are because of great teachers and failing students are because of crappy parents. The blame is usually not anywhere near that clear cut.

SparklyUnicorn · May 5, 2016

All that does is create what is effectively a magnet school on the CC campus...rather costly if the district provides the bussing.

I think the solution is grouping by instructional need. Everyone learns. One thing happening in my county is satellite clinics for psych help located near high schools...that will free some of the school budget up for other needs than medical.

Although what I discovered very recently is that the local high school does not really have DE. Other than that scholars program, the only DE things they offer is basically college in high school. These are a limited number of offerings delivered by TV at the high school (so of course that makes it not an option for a homeschooler). And really the courses are only things that the high school does not offer (stuff like Chinese).

The other CC in another city has a list of on-line courses open to high school students for $50 per credit. But nothing on campus.

Bluegoat · May 5, 2016

Most Black British people are descended from immigrants who came after WWII from the Caribbean to fill jobs such as nursing and rubbish collection, so there is not necessarily a family history of higher education.

More recently, there has been some immigration from Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British#History

No, there isn't necessarily a history of it when they come here either. But for some reason they, or their children, are much more likely to aquire it once the do get here.

And the business thing I mentioned is very interesting to me. One of the big worries in the black community overall has been lack of black-owned businesses, particularly in the city. But those who come from away seem to be very inclined to become small business owners.

kitten18 · May 5, 2016

OK, so, it's why aren't more parents seeking out-of-school help / tutoring to buck up their child's academics.

Kind of surprised to see this viewpoint on a homeschooling board. I mean, I don't want my kids going to school all day, then spend another 1.5 hours in extra academics (on top of homework) to get better test results. I don't know what the answer is, but, I don't think that's it.

I agree. I would like to think we can *value education* without having kids in school for 7 hours, then 2-3 hours of homework, and 1-2 hours at Kumon for math drill.

SparklyUnicorn · May 5, 2016

The other side of this though is I don't think education is the only thing involved here. A low income parent could faithfully send their kid to school and help with homework and read to them and still their kid could be at a disadvantage in a way. Lower income people are less likely to be taking their kids on cool vacations and other sorts of experiences, for example.

In elementary the school was big on broadcasting educational achievement. So we all knew who the top students were. For years it was me and one boy who were tops. At this time students were also tracked in junior and senior high. So we both were tested and given interviews to be placed in honors. We were asked to write essays about a fun summer experience. I wrote about being bored staring at the grass in my back yard. He wrote about his trip to Spain. Who do you think had the easier time getting into the honors classes? It wasn't that my parents valued education less per se, they just were too broke for extras. I really did often spend my summers staring at grass.

wendy not in HI · May 5, 2016

This is just my personal observation from living in a "poor" school district and in a "rich" school district, from rural to urban. Yes, just my own small story as an example of different levels of education around the country.

Two years ago we moved away from a very small town with some of the worst paid teachers in the country. We left that small, underfunded school district and moved to one of the best and biggest school districts in america. A small example, there were two buses at my kids middle school and no buses at the high school, or just buses for special needs students at the high school level. Here at the big school, there are about 30 buses at the middle/high school. Public transportation is a big deal here... where at the poor school district, living more than 2 miles away and having to cross big streets did not guarantee busing.

We had a child going in to the 6th grade when we moved here two years ago, and I worried that he would be a year or two behind in school. Guess what? he was fine! So was our then 8th grader and our High School Junior. I was sure that they would all be behind and struggle in their new big amazing schools. But, they did great. They excelled.

It has made me wonder if those statistics are really honest. How could my regular kids attending small town schools that offered no gifted differentiation transfer to big schools and compete in those gifted/honors/IB classes?

One big thing I have noticed is in the technology. Small town school invested in all sorts of exciting and promising computer programs and stuff. Smart boards. Ipads for students. Special programs for individualized education. Little click things where teachers could do little quizzes and see immediate data... Teachers were always getting grants to test new programs. PTA's were funding smart boards and ipads... At the new big school, we see much lower levels of technology. The teachers have computers and projectors, but not smart boards. The computer lab looks a little dated. No ipads for students. It feels like the small town school is spending their money on technology (maybe trying to make up for not having great teachers?) while the big city school is spending money to attract good teachers. Good teachers = good schools?? Fancy technology is sometimes just window dressing.

Other observations between poorest and richest school districts: in the "rich" district where we currently live there is a feeling that students are going some where. Kids are applying to big colleges and getting accepted. There is a lot of hope and drive in the students. My dd who is a senior says "even the stoners are taking AP classes..." In the smaller town school, there was a general feeling that the small state school was good enough for them. It was very rare for students to apply for colleges out of state, and almost seemed like you were thumbing your noses at the locals if you suggested that you might want to go somewhere else.

And, new big school district = extremely diverse! Small poor district = overwhelmingly white and blonde.

Education in america is complicated. Rural vs urban. Inner city vs. suburban. Rich vs poor. I read an article many years ago about how to help your student get through high school. It was all about numbers and drugs and teen pregnancy. The article concluded that main thing parents could do for their children is to do their best to get their kids in the best schools they could. Good schools = good kids?

We will be moving back to that same small town this summer. My concerns for this move are different. How to help my ds get into Algebra for 8th grade in a school that is using Common Core and does not offer "Algebra". How to help dd15 get the advanced help she needs. She has been recommended for all of the highest level classes offered to rising Sophomores here, where at the small town school there is often just one choice (no honors, no gifted, no IB, maybe AP if you are lucky) and you are not guaranteed to get into the one and only Chemistry class... At what point do I push for dual enrollment... Moving your teenage children really is the worst part of being a military family. Repeated deployments have nothing on the stress of helping your child through multiple moves in high school... Sorry, that has nothing to do with the article.

Artichoke · May 5, 2016

I ran the numbers using 30 years of service and the top level pension plan. I am still not coming up with a number near $100k/year. I looked at the site you gave me (btw, through, not thru) and I am not seeing yearly pension numbers.

Looking at the pension calculations and both the median pay and top end pay in the various districts, I am still not coming up with teachers making $100k/year pensions.

Okay, I got curious and found this link. http://rochester.nydatabases.com/database/teacher-pensions-new-york.

kubiac · May 5, 2016

A low income parent could faithfully send their kid to school and help with homework and read to them and still their kid could be at a disadvantage in a way.

(1) I think this is huge. I think this is actually the case not just with low-income parents but with most parents. The kids are in school, so they must be learning, right?

(2) This guy has a very interesting take on opting out of standardized testing, which he believes helps protect students and families against educational malfeasance:

"I recently read a report titled, â€œOut of Pocket: The High Cost of Inadequate High Schools and High School Student Achievement on College Affordabilityâ€œ. The article had some eye opening stats. Hereâ€™s a few:

1:4 students entering college had to enroll in remedial coursework

This costs students and families $1.5 Billion!

45% of these students came from middle to upper class families while 55% came from poor families

74% more likely to drop out of college

Those that do graduate take 11 more months to graduate on average

I felt my muscles tensing up as I read this. I remember graduating being in the top 10 percentile throughout high school. I remember having As and Bs, thinking I knew what I was doing. Then I had to take a full year of remedial Language Arts and Math. I remember the counselor telling me that these 6 classes â€” yes, dammit 6 classes in a quarter system â€” wouldnâ€™t count towards my college graduation. More than 10 years after college and still owing Sallie Mae more than $75K, Iâ€™m still paying for those courses."

(3) I found this guy's work when I read the HuffPo version of this post, which I think is superhelpful for all parents, not just black parents:

Questions for Black Parents to Ask Their Child's Teacher and School

Edited May 5, 2016 by kubiac

barnwife · May 5, 2016

A little bit of both.

We went to an inner city playground a few weeks ago- they have these really neat playgrounds that they are putting in all over this poorer county, which is known for it's crappy schools. So a bunch of us suburban moms trek out to these awesome playgrounds.

As we were leaving, this car pulled up, with music *blaring*, and the lyrics were explicitly awful. The phrases I remember the most was something like, "like it when they lick my c**t, and I may suck a few d***s," with TONS of curse words thrown in- and then they pulled out 3 toddlers from the backseat. IMO, those people don't care about their kids as I much as I care about mine, or they are dumber than a bag of rocks, or a little bit of both. And yes, I judge the hell out of them, because who in their right mind thinks it's ok or beneficial for children to listen to that crap? Much less at a deafeningly loud volume?

And I was so incredibly sad for those children as I pulled away :( They are so innocent, and so young- FULL of potential... but their worthless stupid parents are setting them up for failure. It just makes me so sad to think about these kids who will have a crappy life BECAUSE of the way their parent/culture raised them.

I made myself feel better by saying, "Well, at least they are taking them to the park." Who

knows if it will make a difference...

And on the other hand, it was great to see so many dads with their kids at the park. They were very hands on with their kids and nice people. You hear so much about absent fathers, especially in the city- so it's great to see so many dads out with their kids. But it sucks that they probably want their kids to succeed, and are active in their children's education, but their kids have to go to school with the kids who are NOT being raised properly, and who destroy the property and disrupt the classroom, and are a bad influence on the good kids.

It's all one big crappy cycle/system... and I don't know what the answers are.

Wow...this is one of the most judgmental, unkind things I have read in a while.

Yes, those families make different choices than you do. But let's get real...a curse word is just a curse word. It some cultures/dialects using such things is normal (perhaps that's not quite the right word). Do I allow our children to listen to such things? Nope. But I am fully aware that I was raised in a culture in which such words were looked down upon. That was so drilled into me that I am now instilling that value in our children.

How wonderful the view seems to be from your high horse. Clearly, you love your children more than the parents you saw at the park love theirs. (Yes, that's sarcasm. When is someone going to invent a sarcasm font?)

I want to say more, but it won't come out nearly as kindly.

ChocolateReignRemix · May 5, 2016

Okay, I got curious and found this link. http://rochester.nydatabases.com/database/teacher-pensions-new-york.

That includes administrators, which draw much higher salaries, and therefore a higher pension. The pension tiers vary, but the one that pays the highest seems to pay about 64% of the average of the final 3 years salary. Looking at the top pay for teachers, not admins, around the state, I couldn't find anyone making a salary that would pay a $100K pension based on that calculation.

Happygrl · May 5, 2016

This thread has been fascinating and horrifying and has left me in tears. I have nothing to add...but, wow. I do read some about schools in the US but, obviously, not enough. All of this...I'm just sad.

Thank you to all the posters who have shared so much knowledge.

SparklyUnicorn · May 5, 2016

Yeah I felt like I was a good hardworking student. I am not impressed with the quality of my education, and I did everything asked of me always. But there was never anything extra. My parents couldn't help me and they really did believe that the school would do their job.

(1) I think this is huge. I think this is actually the case not just with low-income parents but with most parents. The kids are in school, so they must be learning, right?

(2) This guy has a very interesting take on opting out of standardized testing, which he believes helps protect students and families against educational malfeasance:

"I recently read a report titled, â€œOut of Pocket: The High Cost of Inadequate High Schools and High School Student Achievement on College Affordabilityâ€œ. The article had some eye opening stats. Hereâ€™s a few:

1:4 students entering college had to enroll in remedial coursework
This costs students and families $1.5 Billion!
45% of these students came from middle to upper class families while 55% came from poor families
74% more likely to drop out of college

Those that do graduate take 11 more months to graduate on average

I felt my muscles tensing up as I read this. I remember graduating being in the top 10 percentile throughout high school. I remember having As and Bs, thinking I knew what I was doing. Then I had to take a full year of remedial Language Arts and Math. I remember the counselor telling me that these 6 classes â€” yes, dammit 6 classes in a quarter system â€” wouldnâ€™t count towards my college graduation. More than 10 years after college and still owing Sallie Mae more than $75K, Iâ€™m still paying for those courses."

(3) I found this guy's work when I read the HuffPo version of this post, which I think is superhelpful for all parents, not just black parents:

Questions for Black Parents to Ask Their Child's Teacher and School

Arcadia · May 5, 2016

I didn't read the replies, but at the sixth grade level, a score placing a kid two grade levels ahead would be at around the 65th percentile and two grades behind would be at around the 25th percentile.

So if a 6th grade child test score is in the below basic range, that child is four grade levels behind a child whose test score is in the advanced category/range?

I do see that kind of spread in my kids former public school classes. From the 99th percentile to the below 25th percentile in one grade level in the same school.

ETA:

I was taking four grade levels literally. Algebra 1 in 6th vs algebra 1 in 9th for example.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Arcadia

Murphy101 · May 5, 2016

Wow...this is one of the most judgmental, unkind things I have read in a while.

Yes, those families make different choices than you do. But let's get real...a curse word is just a curse word. It some cultures/dialects using such things is normal (perhaps that's not quite the right word). Do I allow our children to listen to such things? Nope. But I am fully aware that I was raised in a culture in which such words were looked down upon. That was so drilled into me that I am now instilling that value in our children.

How wonderful the view seems to be from your high horse. Clearly, you love your children more than the parents you saw at the park love theirs. (Yes, that's sarcasm. When is someone going to invent a sarcasm font?)

I want to say more, but it won't come out nearly as kindly.

No kidding. Like rich smart people don't cuss or listen to loud music. What a mythological level of stereotyping load of poop.

Bluegoat · May 5, 2016

(1) I think this is huge. I think this is actually the case not just with low-income parents but with most parents. The kids are in school, so they must be learning, right?

(2) This guy has a very interesting take on opting out of standardized testing, which he believes helps protect students and families against educational malfeasance:

"I recently read a report titled, â€œOut of Pocket: The High Cost of Inadequate High Schools and High School Student Achievement on College Affordabilityâ€œ. The article had some eye opening stats. Hereâ€™s a few:

1:4 students entering college had to enroll in remedial coursework

This costs students and families $1.5 Billion!

45% of these students came from middle to upper class families while 55% came from poor families

74% more likely to drop out of college

Those that do graduate take 11 more months to graduate on average

I felt my muscles tensing up as I read this. I remember graduating being in the top 10 percentile throughout high school. I remember having As and Bs, thinking I knew what I was doing. Then I had to take a full year of remedial Language Arts and Math. I remember the counselor telling me that these 6 classes â€” yes, dammit 6 classes in a quarter system â€” wouldnâ€™t count towards my college graduation. More than 10 years after college and still owing Sallie Mae more than $75K, Iâ€™m still paying for those courses."

(3) I found this guy's work when I read the HuffPo version of this post, which I think is superhelpful for all parents, not just black parents:

Questions for Black Parents to Ask Their Child's Teacher and School

I agree with him that giving kids the feeling they are capable, when they aren't, is really demoralizing. I think he's really missed the point of why some think opting out of the testing culture is a good idea. It's not that they don't want to make things better. It's that they think that the testing culture in itself is anti-educational.

Bluegoat · May 5, 2016

Wow...this is one of the most judgmental, unkind things I have read in a while.

Yes, those families make different choices than you do. But let's get real...a curse word is just a curse word. It some cultures/dialects using such things is normal (perhaps that's not quite the right word). Do I allow our children to listen to such things? Nope. But I am fully aware that I was raised in a culture in which such words were looked down upon. That was so drilled into me that I am now instilling that value in our children.

How wonderful the view seems to be from your high horse. Clearly, you love your children more than the parents you saw at the park love theirs. (Yes, that's sarcasm. When is someone going to invent a sarcasm font?)

I want to say more, but it won't come out nearly as kindly.

I agree the post felt that way, but I think it touches on something important.

It's ... interesting, to go to some of the inner city playgrounds around here. Plenty of parents in those areas are loving good parents. Many that aren't good parents are still loving. But when I have occasion to go to those playgrounds, the interactions of the kids and parents are very different. There is significant profanity among even the very young kids, a lot of talk about sexual topic that you would not expect among the age groups that are playing on slides and swings, and also a lot of conflict among the kids.

And when their are parents there, they are involved with the same kinds of things - lots of confrontations, really bad language, and so on.

Whatever the reasons are behind this, it isn't hard to see how this kind of environment would be disadvantageous to kids. Of course to the ones who see the same things at home, but even to those who don't - that is still what they are seeing in school and afterwards.

kubiac · May 5, 2016

So if a 6th grade child test score is in the below basic range, that child is four grade levels behind a child whose test score is in the advanced category/range?

I do see that kind of spread in my kids former public school classes. From the 99th percentile to the below 25th percentile in one grade level in the same school.

ETA:

I was taking four grade levels literally. Algebra 1 in 6th vs algebra 1 in 9th for example.

My impression is that if the kids (AS A WHOLE) in Los Altos schools in California are 3.2 grade levels above average [for the country], that means their statistical spread is between 0 levels ahead (average for the country) and 6 grade levels ahead for the country. That means some of their 6th graders are doing 12th grade work (nationally) and some are just being 6th graders, and the average Los Altos 6th grader is working on the 9th grade level.

Meanwhile, at the other end of the scatterplot, the kids in Detroit, Flint and/or Camden NJ AS A WHOLE are 2.5 grade levels below average nationally, which means the average Detroit-Flint-Camden 6th grader is working at a halfway-through-3rd-grade skill level, while their very top tier are just a little behind national 6th grade standards, and their bottom tier of 6th graders are working on about a first grade level.

SO...the spread between the worst-performing kids in Camden and the highest performing kids in Los Altos is actually 12 grade levels. The spread between the center-cut kids is 6 grade levels. And the very worst-performing kids in Los Altos are still doing a little better than the very best-performing kids in all of Camden.

Man, that's distressing.

Edited May 5, 2016 by kubiac

Murphy101 · May 5, 2016

I agree the post felt that way, but I think it touches on something important.

It's ... interesting, to go to some of the inner city playgrounds around here. Plenty of parents in those areas are loving good parents. Many that aren't good parents are still loving. But when I have occasion to go to those playgrounds, the interactions of the kids and parents are very different. There is significant profanity among even the very young kids, a lot of talk about sexual topic that you would not expect among the age groups that are playing on slides and swings, and also a lot of conflict among the kids.

And when their are parents there, they are involved with the same kinds of things - lots of confrontations, really bad language, and so on.

Whatever the reasons are behind this, it isn't hard to see how this kind of environment would be disadvantageous to kids. Of course to the ones who see the same things at home, but even to those who don't - that is still what they are seeing in school and afterwards.

It's about self prophecizing cultural bias.

So yes, it is disadvantageous to a child to not look, behave and speak as white upper class as possible.

But it's not because they actually have an intellectual deficiency from not being raised in that culture.

It's because of the difficulty of acclimating to a different culture social standard.

Ausmumof3 · May 5, 2016

No, it isn't just words. The words are just a symptom.

I have a friend who teaches K. Some kids who enter school never have colored with crayons or held a book.

At 25 ct for a box of crayons and free public library, this is not simply a question of finances, but one of culture..

That or available adult time? Which can be financial or other factors. Libraries are great by you have to be able to get there in opening hours.

Murphy101 · May 5, 2016

My impression is that if the kids (AS A WHOLE) in Los Altos schools in California are 3.2 grade levels above average [for the country], that means their statistical spread is between 0 levels ahead (average for the country) and 6 grade levels ahead for the country. That means some of their 6th graders are doing 12th grade work (nationally) and some are just being 6th graders, and the average Los Altos 6th grader is working on the 9th grade level.

Meanwhile, at the other end of the scatterplot, the kids in Detroit, Flint and/or Camden NJ AS A WHOLE are 2.5 grade levels below average nationally, which means the average Detroit-Flint-Camden 6th grader is working at a halfway-through-3rd-grade skill level, while their very top tier are just a little behind national 6th grade standards, and their bottom tier of 6th graders are working on about a first grade level.

SO...the spread between the worst-performing kids in Camden and the highest performing kids in Los Altos is actually 12 grade levels. The spread between the center-cut kids is 6 grade levels. And the very worst-performing kids in Los Altos are still doing a little better than the very best-performing kids in all of Camden.

Man, that's distressing.

I think upon that too.

I think it just with my own kids tests results.

Otoh, they seem to usually score 100% on the language arts portions of the ACT, usually starting in 8th or 9th grade. 6 out of 10.4 so far anyways. Not anywhere near a conclusive study. But still, I'm thinking: Whew. Didn't totally fail them after all with home schooling. Yay me!

But otoh, I'm thinking, my kids aren't by any stretch super smart or talented IMO. In fact, I'd say they are mediocre to average in language arts. So if they are scoring the 99th percentile... That's not saying anything good for the other students taking the test. In fact, I'm really worried for those other students language skills.

And this also explains why so many students in my state are graduating with great act scores and 4.0 GPAs and then taking remedial English and maths at the colleges.

And why even though my kids usually score in the 80-90 percentile in maths, I sorta mentally feel like a failure bc I know that's more a sad statement about the majority of students than some achievement for mine. I know exactly how they are doing in maths and it shouldn't be that high a score to me.

umsami · May 5, 2016

It's about self prophecizing cultural bias.

So yes, it is disadvantageous to a child to not look, behave and speak as white upper class as possible.

But it's not because they actually have an intellectual deficiency from not being raised in that culture.

It's because of the difficulty of acclimating to a different culture social standard.

So not swearing is acting white upper class? I never really associate Black English/AAVE with swearing, but perhaps that's just me.

(For the record, I read that upper middle class people are more likely to swear than lower middle class people.)

madteaparty · May 5, 2016

How telling are these statistics though with a large school district. I can tell you having lived in "NYC public school district"'that that particular term means nothing.

Ausmumof3 · May 5, 2016

Agreed! The president of our PTO also reads to kids regularly (Ones who for whatever reason their parents do not read with them at home -- so she reads with them so they can get their papers signed that they did their reading -- you can say "Then the teachers shouldn't require the reading at home" but these kids are not progressing with reading because of not having the practice. So volunteers that can come in and help fill in where the parents are not are necessary.) and one girl she noticed always puts the book right on the edge of her nose. Turns out the girl is severely near sided. The nurse sent home a paper to the parent about it, but the mother just told her daughter she didn't need glasses. She just needed to look better. That girl is probably not going to progress in reading until she can get her vision helped. She's just stuck. And with a PTO that earns about $10K a year AFTER expenses... I'm not sure we can do anything. Certainly not about all the kids that have problems even if we can help this one.

This also makes me wonder about parent involvement at school. When I was in primary mum and various other mums went in to do readers a couple of times a week with all kids. I know child protection policies have made this harder as well as increased family working hours. I wonder how much impact that has.

Ausmumof3 · May 5, 2016

Or even wild and crazy things like clean water that's not giving children lead poisoning.

This is a major issue in one of our poor areas.

Murphy101 · May 5, 2016

So not swearing is acting white upper class? I never really associate Black English/AAVE with swearing, but perhaps that's just me.

(For the record, I read that upper middle class people are more likely to swear than lower middle class people.)

It's not about what actually happens.

It's about the appearance of how it should happen publicly based on your cultural expectations.

It's not accurate, but it's still an unconscious bias.

There's no evidence whatsoever that cussing or knowing about sex very young has anything at all to do with academic ability.

So why would you or anyone else presume that a kid (of any ethnicity) who cusses or has cussing parents or knows too much about sex would have any education disadvantage based on that?

I don't associate any race or economic level with cussing.

But I've also picked up on when I can let a mild cuss word slip and when it's going to cost me socially. If I go to an area where the culture doesn't have an expectation that children will be sheltered from what another area would consider adult language or topics, I'm not surprised or offended or thinking they are obviously disadvantaged. I'm thinking, well. Me and the kids will have an interesting dinner conversation tonight.

It's not even about racism. It's about cultural clashes. And contrary to some, culture is not only ethnicity. A whole lot of it is socioeconomics.

Bluegoat · May 5, 2016

It's about self prophecizing cultural bias.

So yes, it is disadvantageous to a child to not look, behave and speak as white upper class as possible.

But it's not because they actually have an intellectual deficiency from not being raised in that culture.

It's because of the difficulty of acclimating to a different culture social standard.

There is that. But it is something more than that I'd say. The conflict level is very, very high for some reason. Kids and parents are very reactive to situations and people (which is where the swearing seems to come in), what seem to be almost unnoticible actions are perceived in a very personal way and called out. Fights are more common than in other areas' playgrounds.

I don't think that is really different social standards or ways of speaking. Learning that interacting that way is normal would cause much deeper problems getting along in education or employment or community functions.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Bluegoat

TammyS · May 5, 2016

It's not accurate, but it's still an unconscious bias.

Well, I'll just pipe up and say that for me it's not unconscious bias. It's totally conscious. I am biased against the people who make that music, the people who listen to that music, and I am triple biased against horrible people who expose small children to that music and inflict it on the rest of us who are just trying to live our lives without having to hear their choice of filth spewed into the open air as we go about our day.

umsami · May 5, 2016

Agreed! The president of our PTO also reads to kids regularly (Ones who for whatever reason their parents do not read with them at home -- so she reads with them so they can get their papers signed that they did their reading -- you can say "Then the teachers shouldn't require the reading at home" but these kids are not progressing with reading because of not having the practice. So volunteers that can come in and help fill in where the parents are not are necessary.) and one girl she noticed always puts the book right on the edge of her nose. Turns out the girl is severely near sided. The nurse sent home a paper to the parent about it, but the mother just told her daughter she didn't need glasses. She just needed to look better. That girl is probably not going to progress in reading until she can get her vision helped. She's just stuck. And with a PTO that earns about $10K a year AFTER expenses... I'm not sure we can do anything. Certainly not about all the kids that have problems even if we can help this one.

Are you in the States? If so, your local State Optometry Society can help. Have the PTO President give them a call.

barnwife · May 5, 2016

Well, I'll just pipe up and say that for me it's not unconscious bias. It's totally conscious. I am biased against the people who make that music, the people who listen to that music, and I am triple biased against horrible people who expose small children to that music and inflict it on the rest of us who are just trying to live our lives without having to hear their choice of filth spewed into the open air as we go about our day.

This is so strange to me. You are expressing that you are happy that you believe you are better than others?

I just can't with this sanctimonious attitude. I truly want to believe you aren't as awful as this makes it sound.

Also, it is "filth" in your opinion. You are judging. They quite possibly think the same of what you listen to.

Murphy101 · May 5, 2016

There is that. But it is something more than that I'd say. The conflict level is very, very high for some reason. Kids and parents are very reactive to situations and people (which is where the swearing seems to come in), what seem to be almost unnoticible actions are perceived in a very personal way and called out. Fights are more common than in other areas' playgrounds.

I don't think that is really different social standards or ways of speaking. Learning that interacting that way is normal would cause much deeper problems getting along in education or employment or community functions.

It IS different social/cultural standards. Do you think they do it because it is NOT normative and effective for them? I don't.

They live in an area where the culture is very attune to position, and aggressively enforced, which is determined very clearly by a cultural code you don't see. To you it's an unnoticeable action being met unreasonably. But it isn't. In their culture, they both very likely knew exactly how the action was an infraction and bet no one was acting all surprised by the result either. And from their point of view, their culture so to speak, us uppity people getting our knickers in a wade over some cuss words loudly spoken around kids is just silly. But obviously you think loudly cussing in anger around kids is much more than just some words. It crosses your cultural acceptance into an area of unacceptable infraction.

And you're right, it does cause problems when they send their kids to schools taught and run mostly by people who don't share their cultural background and view it as less than. Hence my point about how it self prophecizing a kids failure in class.

Yes, they need coaching on expectations outside of their subculture, but by sending the message home everyday that they are automaticly disadvantaged and unlikely to succeed bc of the culture they are born into - it's unlikely they will be very receptive to that coaching.

Murphy101 · May 6, 2016

Well, I'll just pipe up and say that for me it's not unconscious bias. It's totally conscious. I am biased against the people who make that music, the people who listen to that music, and I am triple biased against horrible people who expose small children to that music and inflict it on the rest of us who are just trying to live our lives without having to hear their choice of filth spewed into the open air as we go about our day.

Biases how?

I think certain music genres and the creation and playing of it is deplorable and disgusting to me.

I think lots of things are wrong for various reasons.

But we are all just trying to live our lives and go about our days. You have no special privledge or right to not be offended by others you encounter in the process.

Not being offended is not a civil or human rights issue. Darn near seems like it some days. And one day it might be. But it's not this day and unlikely to be tomorrow either.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Murphy101

LucyStoner · May 6, 2016

A little bit of both.

We went to an inner city playground a few weeks ago- they have these really neat playgrounds that they are putting in all over this poorer county, which is known for it's crappy schools. So a bunch of us suburban moms trek out to these awesome playgrounds.

As we were leaving, this car pulled up, with music *blaring*, and the lyrics were explicitly awful. The phrases I remember the most was something like, "like it when they lick my c**t, and I may suck a few d***s," with TONS of curse words thrown in- and then they pulled out 3 toddlers from the backseat. IMO, those people don't care about their kids as I much as I care about mine, or they are dumber than a bag of rocks, or a little bit of both. And yes, I judge the hell out of them, because who in their right mind thinks it's ok or beneficial for children to listen to that crap? Much less at a deafeningly loud volume?

And I was so incredibly sad for those children as I pulled away :( They are so innocent, and so young- FULL of potential... but their worthless stupid parents are setting them up for failure. It just makes me so sad to think about these kids who will have a crappy life BECAUSE of the way their parent/culture raised them.

I made myself feel better by saying, "Well, at least they are taking them to the park." Who

knows if it will make a difference...

And on the other hand, it was great to see so many dads with their kids at the park. They were very hands on with their kids and nice people. You hear so much about absent fathers, especially in the city- so it's great to see so many dads out with their kids. But it sucks that they probably want their kids to succeed, and are active in their children's education, but their kids have to go to school with the kids who are NOT being raised properly, and who destroy the property and disrupt the classroom, and are a bad influence on the good kids.

It's all one big crappy cycle/system... and I don't know what the answers are.

You think that music selections reflect a lack of love for one's kids? That's quite a leap.

TammyS · May 6, 2016

This is so strange to me. You are expressing that you are happy that you believe you are better than others?

I just can't with this sanctimonious attitude. I truly want to believe you aren't as awful as this makes it sound.

Also, it is "filth" in your opinion. You are judging. They quite possibly think the same of what you listen to.

Yes, I am judging. "I just can't" with people who can't judge it to be filth.

Maybe they are judging what I listen to as filth. But I doubt it. Because while I've listened to many kinds of music, I have never listened to any kind that I had sexual acts described in those manners. Nor have most of the people I have met in my life. Because while we can all question the value of rock/country/grunge/classical/Latin/pop/etc., none of them (at least that I have heard) have lyrics in even the same ball park as that. That is hard core porn for the ears. Other forms of music are simply not comparable.

ETA: Most people believe that they are better than some other people. Charles Manson? Jeffery Dahmer? Rapists? Hitler? Unless you literally believe that you are better than no people, ever (in which case, congratulations, you are better than me, at least by that standard), then the only difference is where we draw the lines. I have no problem drawing the line with me on the other side from people who spew that vileness into the air and force others and small children to have to hear it.

Edited May 6, 2016 by TammyS

Murphy101 · May 6, 2016

I can judge something to be filth and not necessarily judge the person as filth.

I can judge that I've made better decisions than others I know while also understanding it doesn't necessarily make me a better human for having made a better decision.

But sure, there are people I think are good people and others I think are bad people. Usually it takes more than their music selection or not cussing to convince me though.

Janeway · May 6, 2016

Is there already a thread discussing this NYT infographic?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/29/upshot/money-race-and-success-how-your-school-district-compares.html

The poor are screwed and the rich are terrified, as per this Atlantic piece which came out today:

"At its core, this relentless drive to spend any money available comes not from a desire to consume more lattes and own nicer cars, but, largely, from the pressure people feel to provide their kids with access to the best schools they can afford (purchased, in most cases, not via tuition but via real estate in a specific public-school district). Breaking the bank for your kidsâ€™ education is, to an extent, perfectly reasonable: In a deeply unequal society, the gains to be made by being among the elite are enormous, and the consequences of not being among them are dire. When understood mainly as a consequence of this rush to provide for oneâ€™s children, the drive to maximize spending is not some bizarre mystery, nor a sign of massive irresponsibility, but a predictable consequence of severe inequality."

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/american-financial-hell/481107/

The kids in the richer districts do not do better just because they have more money. If you take a poor, failing child out of a poor district and put them in a rich one, chances are, they will still perform the same.

It is completely wrong to judge a school or teachers by the test scores. You can only judge the population of students for the test scores. My child would not likely perform as well if I stuck my child in an inner city district where it is seriously not ok for kids to care about reading and math and such. Kids will usually perform in a similar success level as their parents. And their parents will chose to live in a place that matches what they feel is important.

It is sort of like the time where there was a study saying kids who owned X number of books did so much better in school later on. So someone started a project to give books to all children. And it made no difference. It is a much bigger picture than that.

ChocolateReignRemix · May 6, 2016

Yes, I am judging. "I just can't" with people who can't judge it to be filth.

Maybe they are judging what I listen to as filth. But I doubt it. Because while I've listened to many kinds of music, I have never listened to any kind that I had sexual acts described in those manners. Nor have most of the people I have met in my life. Because while we can all question the value of rock/country/grunge/classical/Latin/pop/etc., none of them (at least that I have heard) have lyrics in even the same ball park as that. That is hard core porn for the ears. Other forms of music are simply not comparable.

ETA: Most people believe that they are better than some other people. Charles Manson? Jeffery Dahmer? Rapists? Hitler? Unless you literally believe that you are better than no people, ever (in which case, congratulations, you are better than me, at least by that standard), then the only difference is where we draw the lines. I have no problem drawing the line with me on the other side from people who spew that vileness into the air and force others and small children to have to hear it.

I think most adults can make a distinction between judging those who hurt other people versus judging those who like/listen to something we find distasteful.

When you have to bring Dahmer and Hitler into a discussion about vulgar lyrics, I think it is safe to say your argument has jumped the shark.

Murphy101 · May 6, 2016

I think most adults can make a distinction between judging those who hurt other people versus judging those who like/listen to something we find distasteful.

When you have to bring Dahmer and Hitler into a discussion about vulgar lyrics, I think it is safe to say your argument has jumped the shark.

I agree.

With the quibble, that I do think porn, and I know the music she is talking about and I'd classify it as porn too, is harmful to others imnsho. But that's an entirely other topic too.

barnwife · May 6, 2016

Yes, I am judging. "I just can't" with people who can't judge it to be filth.

Maybe they are judging what I listen to as filth. But I doubt it. Because while I've listened to many kinds of music, I have never listened to any kind that I had sexual acts described in those manners. Nor have most of the people I have met in my life. Because while we can all question the value of rock/country/grunge/classical/Latin/pop/etc., none of them (at least that I have heard) have lyrics in even the same ball park as that. That is hard core porn for the ears. Other forms of music are simply not comparable.

ETA: Most people believe that they are better than some other people. Charles Manson? Jeffery Dahmer? Rapists? Hitler? Unless you literally believe that you are better than no people, ever (in which case, congratulations, you are better than me, at least by that standard), then the only difference is where we draw the lines. I have no problem drawing the line with me on the other side from people who spew that vileness into the air and force others and small children to have to hear it.

I can judge something to be filth and not necessarily judge the person as filth.

I can judge that I've made better decisions than others I know while also understanding it doesn't necessarily make me a better human for having made a better decision.

But sure, there are people I think are good people and others I think are bad people. Usually it takes more than their music selection or not cussing to convince me though.

I was going to type out a response to TammyS and then I realized that Murphy 101 had already said things quite well.

ChocolateReignRemix · May 6, 2016

I agree.

With the quibble, that I do think porn, and I know the music she is talking about and I'd classify it as porn too, is harmful to others imnsho. But that's an entirely other topic too.

I think an argument can be made in that direction.

*lifeoftheparty* · May 6, 2016

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