The Dreaded Group Project

[plansrme]

I'm just venting here, which I know is dangerous because someone (and I can nearly tell you who) is going to chime in and tell me how this is all my daughter's fault.  I disagree and am not interested in debating it, but I am posting this experience anyway in case it is helpful to someone else whose kid is in a B&M school or co-op.

 

My sophomore was grouped, by the teacher, with two other girls for a group project in world lit.  There was no option to do the project alone although, frankly, that would have been easier.  The project included a short research paper (4 or 5 pages) and an in-class presentation.  One of the girls, we'll call her "Brook," 'cause that's her name, wouldn't meet with the other two girls to practice, wouldn't respond to their texts, etc.  She did produce part of the paper but contributed nothing to the introduction and conclusion.  When it was time to turn in the project, Brook did not turn in her sources as the teacher required.  She eventually turned them in, and the grades were posted for everyone else except for my daughter's group.  Their grade says, "See me."  Uh-oh. We don't know all of the details yet, but there was--shockingly--plagiarism and misuse of a source, so the teacher is holding the grades until she sorts out who did what.  We do not know yet how the grade blame will be apportioned among the three girls, but this adds a whole new layer to the group project dynamic.  We're all accustomed to having members who freeload and let others do all or most of of the work, but having one of them cheat and having there be potential serious ramifications for the others is just not something I ever expected.

 

So, there you have it:  even in a sophomore lit class, apparently the group participants should check each other's sources and text for plagiarism.  Yeah, it would just be easier to do the entire project alone; learning this is surely not the intended purpose of a group project.

[SkateLeft]

Ugh. I feel for you. I absolutely hate cooperative learning, especially when the instructor insists on the same grade for all participants. As the diligent student, I never, ever had a good experience on a college group project, and it never mirrored real world collaboration in anything except maybe my computer science classes.

 

I hope things work out in your daughter's favor. She must be very angry and frustrated. :(

[amy58103]

Ugh, that sucks!  

 

School group projects are so unfair and in no way represent how "group projects" actually work in the real world.  I say this as an engineer that had to endure way too many school group projects during my education and now works on group projects on a daily basis. 

 

Hopefully the teacher will be able to distinguish between your daughter and this other group member and adjust the grades accordingly.   :grouphug:

[JudoMom]

Group projects are stupid.

[lllll]

nm

Edited April 22, 2016 by _ ?^..

[Mom22ns]

We don't know all of the details yet, but there was--shockingly--plagiarism and misuse of a source, so the teacher is holding the grades until she sorts out who did what.  We do not know yet how the grade blame will be apportioned among the three girls, but this adds a whole new layer to the group project dynamic.  We're all accustomed to having members who freeload and let others do all or most of of the work, but having one of them cheat and having there be potential serious ramifications for the others is just not something I ever expected.

 

:scared:  :banghead:  :svengo:

 

So sorry that your daughter got a lousy group member. I hope it all gets straightened out and she and the other group members are not punished for what they didn't do and didn't think to guard against (who checks everybody else's sources?).

 

I know how frustrating group work can be and this is definitely worst case scenario. However, I still don't throw it all out as bad. Ds has had some kind of group project or presentation in most of his classes each semester this year and so far all the experiences have been good. 

[plansrme]

Thanks for the sympathy.  The students find out what happens tomorrow, but tonight, my daughter was able to unlock (is that the right term?) their originality assessment from turnitin.com.  I knew she had submitted the paper, but I did not realize that the report is not available until the teacher releases it.  As we suspected, Brooke's section was more than 50% not her own work.  It came out to 17% of the paper, but it in her section.  I had not read her section before, since it was such a late addition to the paper, but just reading it, I could tell it wasn't written by a 15 year old.  It was two or three paragraphs, Hon, the shortest component of the paper; you really couldn't suck it up and write three paragraph???

[Ms Brooks]

All I can say: It does not get any better at the college level. I dislike group projects.

[Janice in NJ]

For some folks:

Group Project: (noun) Time to relax while you watch someone who cares do all the work.

 

 

Or in our case: 

 

 

My kids knew that they were just going to have to take charge from the beginning. You can quickly determine who is who is the group and then adjust accordingly. IOW: teach your kids to start out as the leader (one who is secretly planning to do everything if necessary) and then only cautiously move away from that position as they progress through the project. The DAY the project is assigned my kid, group leader, includes everyone in a group email reminding everyone about how the group decided to divide up the project and what dates the group has agreed on. 

 

Unfortunately, in most cases, it's easier and WAY less time consuming to take on the responsibility yourself than it is to push others along. Trying to argue with a disinterested prof about who did what is a pain. In most cases, profs assign group projects so they have less work to do, not more. So the trick is to plan/organize the project so that everyone is done with their part well in advance of the due date. AND do it all via email/Google documents. That way there is a clear documented record of everyone's participation. The leader gets credit for being the leader, the workers get credit for working, and the slackers are obvious!

 

Setting fake due dates for the group also makes it very obvious who is going to participate and who isn't WELL before things are due. The kids who have stepped up can then divide the remaining load among themselves. No drama. Project gets done well by the best students. And if there are members of the group who have done nothing, it is well documented too. 

 

Dragging is easier than pushing when something/someone has no form. 

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited April 21, 2016 by Janice in NJ

[FaithManor]

I hate to say it, but this happens in college too. Happened to me.

This has happened to both of my collegians. Ds did 85% of the work on his group project last semester with one other student who appeared to have some motivation to do at least kind of well completed 15% and the other two students contributed nothing, but to make the professor happy ds put their names on a small portion of the work to please the professor. They all received A's. Ds was profoundly unhappy about having to do it that way, but he wasn't willing to sacrifice his GPA over it, and let the others ride on his shirt tails.

[SparklyUnicorn]

That stinks and definitely does not sound like your daughter's fault. 

 

 

 

 

[MarkT]

My B&M charter school son hates group projects/work for the very reasons cited above. The schools like them because the smart kids "carry" the slackers.

 

It is a huge trend in education with no end in site. Colleges jumping on the band-wagon.

[FaithManor]

My B&M charter school son hates group projects/work for the very reasons cited above. The schools like them because the smart kids "carry" the slackers.

 

It is a huge trend in education with no end in site. Colleges jumping on the band-wagon.

Exactly, while I don't think this was the case in his UNV class, since the professor literally drew names from a hat to form the groups, this happened a LOT when dd was in a brick and mortar middle school for two years. As a matter of fact, when she scored in the top 5% in the nation on standardized testing except the spelling section which brought her score down to the top 25%, she was verbally berated over that because the teacher was counting on all the "smart kids" to score tippy top in everything in order to bring up the class average on the test. I pulled her which really upset the teacher. Too bad! My child is there to get an education, not to make you look better because some of the class is under-performing.

[plansrme]

Well, the girls met with the teacher, and I still don't really know what's going on.  There is still no grade; the paper was due March 25, 3 1/2 weeks ago, and she will not have a grade until Monday.  The teacher is giving all of them additional work on how not plagiarize, which makes no sense to me.  Then, on Monday or later, the girls will each complete a form about who did what (although the teacher already knows); then the teacher divides the total points among the girls.  We are still not clear on how the penalty for plagiarism will be allocated.  The girl who admittedly did all of the plagiarism claims it was an accident, that she meant to quote it all.  Really, Hon?  The teacher, predictably, says the other girls are equally responsible, despite the fact that Brooke only uploaded her portion of the paper late Sunday night, the night before it was due, so how they were supposed to check her work then, I don't know.  I have requested a phone call or meeting but have not heard back yet.  Monday will make four weeks since this paper was turned in, and there's still going to be no grade.  

[G5052]

School group projects are so unfair and in no way represent how "group projects" actually work in the real world.  I say this as an engineer that had to endure way too many school group projects during my education and now works on group projects on a daily basis. 

 

I've never assigned group projects for my college classes, primarily because I hate grading them and dealing with the group dynamic issues as a professor. To me it's too high-maintenance. Thankfully I'm in a field where I'm not pressured to do that at the level I teach.

 

HOWEVER, I disagree with the above statement. This is not universally true. In some fields you truly have to work with what you're given and swallow your pride.

 

When I was university research, there were plenty of times when I gathered the data, write the programs to analyze it, did the graphs, and even wrote most of the journal paper. And I got last billing on the paper. Of course first billing went to the famous scientist who had the idea and who had obtained the funding. Second billing went to his best bud who did zero. And they went to Europe and presented the paper, not me.

 

Later on I wrote technical speeches and Congressional testimony. Did I know the content far better than the government official? Certainly. In some cases they were a recent political appointee with minimal background. I would write their speech and then spend several hours drilling them on the potential questions by scripting it all out for them. Sometimes I was in the audience, but never once was a recognized as the person who truly knew the material.

 

Bottom line, sometimes you just have make it work and carry far more than your load to get something done. Employers want those kinds of skills, and that's why colleges assign group projects. When I've sat on committees with local businesses who are specifying what kind of skills they want in the graduates, they all talk about group projects.

 

Do I like them? No. Not as a student or professor. But they're part of higher education because employers want them there.

  Then, on Monday or later, the girls will each complete a form about who did what (although the teacher already knows); then the teacher divides the total points among the girls.  

 

 

Sounds like the teacher is creating a paper trail, so she can prove academic misconduct for the appropriate parties -- in these cases, it often doesn't matter so much what she knows, as what she can prove.

 

My only advise for your dd is to retain a paper trail of her own -- keep the unanswered group texts, screenshots or other evidence of when work was (or wasn't) done, etc.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've never assigned group projects for my college classes, primarily because I hate grading them and dealing with the group dynamic issues as a professor. To me it's too high-maintenance. Thankfully I'm in a field where I'm not pressured to do that at the level I teach.

 

HOWEVER, I disagree with the above statement. This is not universally true. In some fields you truly have to work with what you're given and swallow your pride.

 

When I was university research, there were plenty of times when I gathered the data, write the programs to analyze it, did the graphs, and even wrote most of the journal paper. And I got last billing on the paper. Of course first billing went to the famous scientist who had the idea and who had obtained the funding. Second billing went to his best bud who did zero. And they went to Europe and presented the paper, not me.

 

Later on I wrote technical speeches and Congressional testimony. Did I know the content far better than the government official? Certainly. In some cases they were a recent political appointee with minimal background. I would write their speech and then spend several hours drilling them on the potential questions by scripting it all out for them. Sometimes I was in the audience, but never once was a recognized as the person who truly knew the material.

 

Bottom line, sometimes you just have make it work and carry far more than your load to get something done. Employers want those kinds of skills, and that's why colleges assign group projects. When I've sat on committees with local businesses who are specifying what kind of skills they want in the graduates, they all talk about group projects.

 

Do I like them? No. Not as a student or professor. But they're part of higher education because employers want them there.

 

Although in your examples it seems the various players in the group know what their part is.  They each have a specific function.  Yes, sometimes the lower people in the pecking order do the biggest amount of grunt work.  I assume that the top dog was probably in that position before.  Or not.  He/she may just have the higher credentials or position.  Still it's fairly clear in terms of who is expected to do what. 

 

While in these school group projects it's kinda like just throwing random people into the middle of the ocean and they are only learning how to swim and you expect them to in a short time coordinate their efforts.  In the real world groups have assigned leaders.  Each person in the group often has a specific role/task.  They don't all sit there and wonder who is doing what or who is qualified/knowledgeable about what. 

 

In some classes I think it makes sense.  A business course which teaches how to coordinate groups in business, for example.  But just some history course?  Why?  Makes no sense to me. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh and with high school this is even worse.  Many aren't there out of choice.  Some might flat out not want to be there at all nor care about the quality of their work.  Seems unfair for a good student who does care about that to be punished for ending up with a group of disinterested slackers.

 

 

[daijobu]

Wow.  It's one thing to have a member who doesn't pull his/her weight on the project.  But another thing entirely if this person is plagiarizing because that's such a serious crime in academics.  I like Janice in NJ's ideas about assuming your student will do all the work until proven otherwise.  That's a keeper, and one I will share my dd's.  

[lllll]

nm

Edited April 22, 2016 by _ ?^..

[CaffeineDiary]

Yeah, personally I think "My group project went totally sideways because no one coordinated with anyone else and half the team flaked out and I got totally screwed by it" is an extremely valuable lesson for kids to learn, so I'm all in favor of kids having as many of these group projects as possible.  

 

Because, really, welcome to the working week.

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by CaffeineDiary

[SparklyUnicorn]

I asked my dh about this last night.  (He's a process engineer, 30 years in semiconductor industry.  I highlighted the above.)  As in, WHY would employers want kids to do such a ridiculous number of these group things.  He said, first, because that's real life - it's what happens on the job.  Some are slackers, some are incompetent, and some end up doing all the work.  Then, he thought a minute and said maybe it's because kids are so isolated today, what with spending all their time staring at screens, and employers are wanting to make sure these kids can actually work with live human beings before hiring them.  And from the things my dc tell me about some of the kids they've had in their group projects, I think my dh is probably right.  Some (not all) kids will actually sit there and stare at their phones the entire time the group is discussing something, never talking or offering anything whatsoever - when they can be bothered to show up, that is.  It's hard to tell if they CAN work with actual, live human beings ....

 

Overall, though, my dc have worked with some wonderful, fascinating kids, too, in their college group projects.  They've made some friends this way, too.  I guess I hear mostly about their frustrations with the kids who seem to be the source of the problems in the group, causing more work for the members who care about their work/grades.  But there are definitely kids out there who know how to work and enjoy it - hs'ed, ps'ed, all of it.  :)   

 

My husband has definitely complained about slackers.  Eventually they get fired though.  There is only so much coworkers are going to put up with that.  He complains the most about how much time they spend in meetings not getting actual work done. 

 

And I don't get the impression that kids are isolated in general.  Most kids are in school all day.  Many are there for extended hours (childcare).  Kids are in more extracurricular activities than ever.  I mean that IS one of the biggest complaints I hear all the time from parents.  That their kids' activities take up so much time or are tiring on the parent because they are carting them around and waiting for them. 

 

I think there is some value to group projects, but I think how they are generally organized isn't the best.  For example, your husband has a specific job role.  They don't usually take the janitor, the receptionist, the business analyst, the CEO, and the engineer and tell them ok make something and ignore the job title you have.  My example is an exaggeration obviously, but I'm just saying they have roles.  

[Reefgazer]

I don't object to group projects, but I do object to group grades. After all, this isn't a work situation where an account is going to be lost if a project fails, but this is a learning environment where kids that actually have mastered the material and the idea of group work should not be penalized because of those who can not do that. A classroom situation ( where students are not necessarily committed to that one class, nor do they necessarily feel the obligation to be there) also does not have the same dynamics of the work situation (where people are obligated to be at work if they need the paycheck and where they are obligatoed to perform when the boss asks). When I assign group projects (rarely, because they are over-rated), I set up the assignment such that each person receives a separate grade for their work on the project, and I require "progress reports" from each participant so that I can evaluate their individual contributions to the project. Assigning a group project with one final grade, while not making the effort to evaluate each student's contribution, is the hallmark of a lazy instructor.

 

I asked my dh about this last night. (He's a process engineer, 30 years in semiconductor industry. I highlighted the above.) As in, WHY would employers want kids to do such a ridiculous number of these group things. He said, first, because that's real life - it's what happens on the job. Some are slackers, some are incompetent, and some end up doing all the work. Then, he thought a minute and said maybe it's because kids are so isolated today, what with spending all their time staring at screens, and employers are wanting to make sure these kids can actually work with live human beings before hiring them. And from the things my dc tell me about some of the kids they've had in their group projects, I think my dh is probably right. Some (not all) kids will actually sit there and stare at their phones the entire time the group is discussing something, never talking or offering anything whatsoever - when they can be bothered to show up, that is. It's hard to tell if they CAN work with actual, live human beings ....

 

Overall, though, my dc have worked with some wonderful, fascinating kids, too, in their college group projects. They've made some friends this way, too. I guess I hear mostly about their frustrations with the kids who seem to be the source of the problems in the group, causing more work for the members who care about their work/grades. But there are definitely kids out there who know how to work and enjoy it - hs'ed, ps'ed, all of it. :)

Edited April 22, 2016 by reefgazer

[lllll]

nm

Edited April 22, 2016 by _ ?^..

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

But I really have no idea.  I've never done a group project in my life.  Not in K-12 or in college.  This seems to be more of a recent trend.  The only reason I was even thinking about it was I couldn't figure out for the life of me why "local businesses" would want to see kids doing them in schools, as G5052 said in her post upthread. 

 

I've done a few.  Sometimes teachers let you pick who you work with and sometimes they choose who will be in what group.  Then they say ok you are to do a presentation on the exciting activity of watching trees grow.  So kids get into their groups.  Nobody is in charge.  Some kids care deeply about the quality of their work, and or good grades.  Some would rather be doing just about anything else.  Some want to do all the work because they are afraid it won't get done otherwise.  Some think easy peasy I can hide the fact I won't do much or anything because it's a group project.  Nobody may outright have these thoughts, but that is how the whole thing always played out when I was in high school.

 

College was better.  More students there want to be there. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh and yes let's not forget about being worried you are a little too excited about learning so you don't try too hard because you don't want to be made fun of and harassed.   

 

 

[plansrme]

Update from the OP:

The three girls met with the teacher yesterday morning, and the two innocent girls came out more confused than ever, so I requested a call from the teacher.  To her everlasting credit, she did call me.  She talked in circles a lot (no wonder the girls were confused), but it seemed pretty clear to me that she did intend to reduce all of the girls' grades for the plagiarism.  I asked what, exactly, the two girls were supposed to have done about it, and as she was at a loss to offer an alternative, I think she eventually came around to saying that the plagiarism would not be held against them.  It does sound like Brooke will get the benefit of their work (school policy is that she gets a zero, but it sounds like she will be graded on the rest of the project less her contribution), which chaps my hide a little bit, but I keep reminding myself that that is between the teacher and Brooke.  Having reviewed the paper again with the turnitin.com analysis, I am convinced that there is no way the other girls could have detected the plagiarism even if they had read Brooke's sources.  The teacher rather grudgingly had to admit this when I asked whether they should have stayed up all Sunday night comparing each other's sources and work.  We should have a grade this weekend, and as long as it is a solid B or higher, I'll let it drop.  

 

Although I do think it will work out okay, I am a little shocked that the teacher's first reaction was to treat them all as guilty.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I asked my dh about this last night.  (He's a process engineer, 30 years in semiconductor industry.  I highlighted the above.)  As in, WHY would employers want kids to do such a ridiculous number of these group things.  He said, first, because that's real life - it's what happens on the job.  Some are slackers, some are incompetent, and some end up doing all the work.  Then, he thought a minute and said maybe it's because kids are so isolated today, what with spending all their time staring at screens, and employers are wanting to make sure these kids can actually work with live human beings before hiring them.  And from the things my dc tell me about some of the kids they've had in their group projects, I think my dh is probably right.  Some (not all) kids will actually sit there and stare at their phones the entire time the group is discussing something, never talking or offering anything whatsoever - when they can be bothered to show up, that is.  It's hard to tell if they CAN work with actual, live human beings ....

 

Overall, though, my dc have worked with some wonderful, fascinating kids, too, in their college group projects.  They've made some friends this way, too.  I guess I hear mostly about their frustrations with the kids who seem to be the source of the problems in the group, causing more work for the members who care about their work/grades.  But there are definitely kids out there who know how to work and enjoy it - hs'ed, ps'ed, all of it.  :)   

Yeah, it happens on the job.  But I still don't think that a group project with a group grade teaches anything but frustration.  If the goal of education is to beat everyone down to just accept lousy management and just be cogs in the machine, then I guess group projects with group grades fulfill that goal. 

 

I don't think teachers assign them to combat "screen isolationism."  Group projects have been around since before I went to school and I am in my 50s.  I don't think kids are more isolated than they were back then.  There are kids who are isolated, but there were many back then.  What they did with their time is different.  I was isolated because I didn't have many friends, not because I had screens to look at. I read books instead ... lots and lot. Dd has lots of screens to look at and she is way less isolated than I was. She has tons of friends that she sees IRL and can keep in touch with other friends that she doesn't see.   I was assigned group projects since elementary school.  Some were the typical group grade things and some were better designed to reflect who did what.  Know what?  Working in a group in the real world at a real job was way better than school projects.  We were all actually there during working hours.  We could record who was doing what, what the deadlines were, and how to know when a deliverable was completed.  Yeah, there were slackers.  But we knew who they were and we were able to get the project done because the manager was in charge. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Update from the OP:

The three girls met with the teacher yesterday morning, and the two innocent girls came out more confused than ever, so I requested a call from the teacher.  To her everlasting credit, she did call me.  She talked in circles a lot (no wonder the girls were confused), but it seemed pretty clear to me that she did intend to reduce all of the girls' grades for the plagiarism.  I asked what, exactly, the two girls were supposed to have done about it, and as she was at a loss to offer an alternative, I think she eventually came around to saying that the plagiarism would not be held against them.  It does sound like Brooke will get the benefit of their work (school policy is that she gets a zero, but it sounds like she will be graded on the rest of the project less her contribution), which chaps my hide a little bit, but I keep reminding myself that that is between the teacher and Brooke.  Having reviewed the paper again with the turnitin.com analysis, I am convinced that there is no way the other girls could have detected the plagiarism even if they had read Brooke's sources.  The teacher rather grudgingly had to admit this when I asked whether they should have stayed up all Sunday night comparing each other's sources and work.  We should have a grade this weekend, and as long as it is a solid B or higher, I'll let it drop.  

 

Although I do think it will work out okay, I am a little shocked that the teacher's first reaction was to treat them all as guilty.

 

Bunch of bull.  But yeah, what can ya do?

[Mom22ns]

Although I do think it will work out okay, I am a little shocked that the teacher's first reaction was to treat them all as guilty.

 

You are surprised by that? I think that would be expected. Treat them all as guilty until you have evidence otherwise. Plagiarism is handled quite harshly in education today. As long as she gives the innocent girls the grades they deserve in the end, I think the teacher has done fine. Could she have made it less stressful for the innocent - yep. But I bet they both learned they NEVER want to be caught plagiarizing in the future. I know they didn't this time, but the temptation is always there. Being terrified of the potential results isn't a bad thing. :)

[plansrme]

You are surprised by that? I think that would be expected. Treat them all as guilty until you have evidence otherwise. Plagiarism is handled quite harshly in education today. As long as she gives the innocent girls the grades they deserve in the end, I think the teacher has done fine. Could she have made it less stressful for the innocent - yep. But I bet they both learned they NEVER want to be caught plagiarizing in the future. I know they didn't this time, but the temptation is always there. Being terrified of the potential results isn't a bad thing. :)

I am surprised that she was going to grade them all as guilty after she KNEW who was guilty. I talked her into leniency for the innocent parties after she knew who was guilty. There is no way the other girls could have prevented what happened.

[scoutingmom]

I hated group projects. I had to do one at the technical institute where I took computer engineering technology, near the end of the program. One of my classes had a final group project that was writing a software program for a specific industrial control problem. I know it was to give us opportunities to experience making various sections of software written by different people work together and look consistant as well as teamwork etc. Project teams could be any size, and self chosen.

 

Remember choosing teams and the poor kid always picked last? Um, yeah.

 

I quickly realized no one wanted me on their team. I go to the instructor and declare a team of one. He wasn't going to allow that, but another instructor who had realized what had happened talked to him. I think he realized there was no way for him to really fix it without causing both major emberassement on my part as well as some team all ticked that they had to have me on their team... he let me do it on my own.

 

So yup. Nothing like discovering that things hurt just as much as an adult as they do as a kid.

 

OP glad to hear you got some sense into the teacher. Hope the grade is ok.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[Alessandra]

Update from the OP:

The three girls met with the teacher yesterday morning, and the two innocent girls came out more confused than ever, so I requested a call from the teacher. To her everlasting credit, she did call me. She talked in circles a lot (no wonder the girls were confused), but it seemed pretty clear to me that she did intend to reduce all of the girls' grades for the plagiarism. I asked what, exactly, the two girls were supposed to have done about it, and as she was at a loss to offer an alternative, I think she eventually came around to saying that the plagiarism would not be held against them. It does sound like Brooke will get the benefit of their work (school policy is that she gets a zero, but it sounds like she will be graded on the rest of the project less her contribution), which chaps my hide a little bit, but I keep reminding myself that that is between the teacher and Brooke. Having reviewed the paper again with the turnitin.com analysis, I am convinced that there is no way the other girls could have detected the plagiarism even if they had read Brooke's sources. The teacher rather grudgingly had to admit this when I asked whether they should have stayed up all Sunday night comparing each other's sources and work. We should have a grade this weekend, and as long as it is a solid B or higher, I'll let it drop.

 

Although I do think it will work out okay, I am a little shocked that the teacher's first reaction was to treat them all as guilty.

Have you thought of going up the line? In our school, each kid is assigned an advisor. Then there is a director of students, can't remember the exact title. When Ds was having a teacher overload the work after Ds had a hospital stay, the director was able to call him off and shut him down. Very satisfying!

 

If your school has an advisor for mental health or a social worker, your dd could ask for an appointment and complain of stress. Usually the mental health people deal with much more serious issues, but Ime, they tend to be student advocates. School nurses can also be great student advocates. I don't know about your school, but stressed students are something our school does not want.

 

To me, the teacher sounds unreasonable. She seems to be taking the guilty until proven innocent position. That is subjecting students who are still kids to unnecessary stress.

 

I would try to have your dd take the initiative herself as much as possible (with your behind the scenes advice). Schools often like to see students advocate for themselves, but often don't feel as positive about parents helping.

 

Have you checked the schools handbook. Most have sections on plagiarism, but not sure about it in context of group project.

 

I would also want help in getting your dd's record with turnitin cleaned up, if her name is associated with plagiarism in any way.

[Garga]

I hated group projects. I had to do one at the technical institute where I took computer engineering technology, near the end of the program. One of my classes had a final group project that was writing a software program for a specific industrial control problem. I know it was to give us opportunities to experience making various sections of software written by different people work together and look consistant as well as teamwork etc. Project teams could be any size, and self chosen.

 

Remember choosing teams and the poor kid always picked last? Um, yeah.

 

I quickly realized no one wanted me on their team. I go to the instructor and declare a team of one. He wasn't going to allow that, but another instructor who had realized what had happened talked to him. I think he realized there was no way for him to really fix it without causing both major emberassement on my part as well as some team all ticked that they had to have me on their team... he let me do it on my own.

 

So yup. Nothing like discovering that things hurt just as much as an adult as they do as a kid.

 

OP glad to hear you got some sense into the teacher. Hope the grade is ok.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

People can be so mean sometimes. Or at least clueless. Half of the time I think, "Oh, people aren't too bad," and the other half of the time I wish I never had to leave the house and interact with anyone ever again. They can be so hurtful. Edited April 25, 2016 by Garga

[daijobu]

 

Remember choosing teams and the poor kid always picked last? Um, yeah.

 

I quickly realized no one wanted me on their team. I go to the instructor and declare a team of one. He wasn't going to allow that, but another instructor who had realized what had happened talked to him. I think he realized there was no way for him to really fix it without causing both major emberassement on my part as well as some team all ticked that they had to have me on their team... he let me do it on my own.

 

 

I want to read about the happy ending where you prove them all wrong.  

[scoutingmom]

I want to read about the happy ending where you prove them all wrong.

Hm.... I did get a good mark....

 

Does getting a job as a software developer at the company in the city that made the industrial control software we used in class count?

 

Edited to add... I worked there for 6 years, became a project leader, and learned a lot too!

Edited April 25, 2016 by scoutingmom

[Garga]

I want to read about the happy ending where you prove them all wrong.

I have one for you.

 

I was also always picked last in school for everything. I mean, everything. For a high school science project, there was no one to be my partner except for a girl who was out that day. The teacher said, "Well, you can start working on it and when so-and-so comes back, she'll be your partner..." since no one else would have me.

 

It was that project where every group is given the same materials (tape, paper, straws, cotton, etc) and has to make some sort of device that will protect a raw egg when it's dropped from various heights. First, from the height of a desk, then from the height of the ceiling, then from a 2 story window, and then from the roof of the school.

 

My egg project, which I worked on entirely alone since no one would have me, was the only egg project in the history of the school that made it all the way to the roof, with the egg still protected.

 

Group projects are stupid and don't they all wish they'd had me on their team now. Little twerps. :)

Edited April 25, 2016 by Garga

[Tsuga]

Oh, UGH.

 

What a horrible way to have to learn that you have to check everyone for plagiarism. :(

 

Whether or not the prof was justified--honestly in her place I'd do the same--it does not change the fact that this is incredibly frustrating for your daughter and that she doesn't deserve it (not fully).

 

I'm sorry. I hate group projects.

[Lolly]

My honest opinion? Group projects in school should be banned if they are for grades. Period. I am glad the teacher would listen to you when you called. I hope she doesn't grade them more harshly because of this.

 

Dd may have to retake a class in college and add an additional semester (this was supposed to be her last one) because of a group project. THis is a girl who is graduating, or would be, with a 3.8 overall gpa. The teacher is horrid. HIs grading is odd and unpredictable. ANd, this is the one and only group project in her college career she didn't just do by her own self. She made sure everyone had their stuff together. It was to be submitted as a video presentation. They met and made the video a week in advance. One of the guys insisted that he was editing it and submitting it. She was quite relieved because she had a surgery right before it was supposed to be submitted. AND...he submitted it 3 hours after the time it was due. They may have a zero on the assignment. No grade has been assigned. They have no clue. Now the odd part, this was used as part of a competition the school is taking place in. Her group won the first section of the competition and is having to go forward to the next/final step this week. Yet, they don't know if the teacher is accepting the work for a grade... She is upset because the work wasn't good in the first place by her standards. She is embarrassed to have to present it to a very real company. She has way too much work to get done because finals are next week, lots of tests this week, and she has been sick the last two months (and still is) with stomach problems that the surgery didn't fix. Add in more doctor's appointments to that list...Not to mention the big one, the job she has lined up...

Edited April 25, 2016 by Lolly

[GoodGrief]

I think you did the right thing getting involved in that situation. Your daughter does not need any whispers of plagiarism on her record. The grade is one thing, but that sort of accusation is bad news academically.

 

My worst "group" project was in high school, can't remember the class. We were paired with someone of the opposite gender to plan a wedding, no lie. Awful.