Should I spend time challenging this to (possibly) help other homeschoolers

[*LC]

My children and I receive social security survivor's benefits since my husband died. When a child turns 18, they are no longer eligible for survivor benefits unless they are still in high school (or disabled). A month or so before the child turns 18, the parent receives a letter notifying you of this. The child receives a form to fill out and then take to his/her school to prove school attendance. 

 

My child who recently turned 18 is homeschooled, so there is no school to fill out the form. The page of form SSA-1732 that the student fills out asks what type of school it is (homeschool is an option), how many hours a week they are scheduled to attend, the expected date of graduation, and few other things that are not relevant. It does not ask for anything additional for homeschool students.

 

In addition to this student form, I filled out the school form that confirmed the information on the student form. It also asked if the school program lasted more than 13 weeks and if it was a yearlong or semester program. I then agreed to keep additional forms to send in if the student stopped attending school before graduation. There was nothing on this form about homeschooling. I signed it with my name and school title. 

 

After we sent in these forms, I received a letter from SS requesting more information to make a determination in his case. It says they need a "copy of completed current form PI-1206; a curriculum or list of all the courses being taught and approximate hours for each course (by day, week or month); an attendance log or chart if available; an indication of the educational level of the home school instructor." 

 

I had never heard of a form PI-1206. Thanks to the internet I discovered it is possibly a form for homeschoolers in Wisconsin. I do not live in Wisconsin; I have never been to Wisconsin, so I do not have a form PI-1206. There is no equivalent form for homeschooling in my state. There was a name/number to call if I had questions. I called and was told I would receive a call back in 3 days. I did not get a call back. I sent all the other paperwork and an explanation of why I couldn't send a PI-1206. I never heard back.

 

Soon after this, I received a letter saying my child's survivor benefits would stop in x month, because he was turning 18 and not in school. It said what to do if you disagree with the decision. I wasn't too worried, because I had already sent the additional information requested. I thought the forms passed in the mail. I called and left a message with the original contact number. I was told I would receive a call in 3 days. I did not. 

 

The child's survivor benefits stopped. I filled out the appeal as instructed in the letter. I never heard anything. I also called the local contact and was told I would receive a call withing 3 days. I did not. 

 

Yesterday, I called the number on the appeal, and I talked to a person. She said they logged my appeal into the system (a month after I sent it) and it would take 60-90 days to reach a decision. He may graduate before that. I pushed the issue and discovered they do not have the original 1732 form in their system. They also do not have the documentation I sent logged into their system. I pushed some more. She said the states determine what is needed from homeschoolers to prove the student is in school, so I need to provide what the local SS office wants. I said I cannot, because one of the forms does not exist in my state. I said I sent everything else. She said I needed to call the local office. I said I did, but never received a call back. (We went around and around with this for a while with her making the same suggestions for every question I asked.) She did say if I won the appeal I would get the money retroactively. 

 

So, in all likelihood my appeal will be denied, because the appeal office does not have access to the form I sent in certifying my student is in school or the additional information I sent about our homeschool. She did say the local office may not have entered the information yet, and they may be doing it soon. (I did call my local office again, and I have not received a call back at the 24-hour mark.)

 

Should I push the issue? We are talking about less than $20 total from the benefits stopped till this child is truly not eligible due to graduation. When one child stops receiving benefits, his/her benefits are then split among me and the other children. Due to rounding we will receive a few dollars less each month than we did before.

 

I have the form to send a request to my US senator to get involved. Should I fill it out and send it to possibly help other homeschoolers down the line? Homeschooled students are entitled to receive social security survivor benefits until they graduate just like all other students. If SS wants more paperwork from homeschoolers, they need to ask for it on the original form. If they can't do that, they need to at least ask for paperwork that relates to the student's state. It bothers me that this is so arbitrary for homeschoolers. While it does not cost us much money right now, if my youngest homeschools through high school, it would cost us a lot since there will be no one to pass the benefit to at that time. (My survivor benefits will end when the youngest turns 16.)

 

Thanks

 

P.S. I refuse to go to the local social security office, because that would take all day. It is not worth $20.

 

 

[Karen A]

First of all, I'm really sorry for your loss, and that you are dealing with all of this to begin with.  

 

Regarding the SS issue, I think it would be great for you to fight this to make the situation right, and (hopefully) improve the system.  But I also know we all have limited amounts of time/energy, and for your family, the payoff seems small for the time/energy you'd need to expend.  Though it sounds like the issue  needs to be dealt with sometime in the future--but maybe I'd just wait til then, and hope the system had improved??  Do you have more time now, or when your youngest is 18???  

 

I'm frustrated for you.  Keep up the good work, mom, whatever you end up doing!

[Beth78]

Is this what I have to look forward to in 1.5 yrs?   :svengo:

[Valley Girl]

Are you a member of HSLDA or a state homeschool association? If so I would definitely pursue it on principle since you're paying dues. If not, I'm not so sure as it sounds like you would need a lawyer to write a letter possible to get their attention. 

 

Even if you're not a member, it might be worth letting them know about this issue. You're very likely not the only homeschooler who's dealt with that issue. A call to your congressperson's office might be worthwhile as well even if you're not planning to pursue it personally. Sorry for the hard time you've had.

[wendyroo]

As I read through your post I kept guessing how much money you were talking about.  As you outlined each form you filled out and phone call you made my estimate kept going up.  By the ninth paragraph I guessed we were talking about a loss of at least $300-500.  In the 10th paragraph you said $20 and my jaw actually dropped.  No!!  I would not jump through any hoops trying to convince the government to retroactively reimburse $20 - my time is worth way more than that.  And I would not consider it fighting the good homeschooling fight, because even if the kid had been in public school and the forms were not sent or processed in time, I still would not spend any time or energy fighting that battle over $20.  Personally, I would just count that as the cost of living in and dealing with a slow-moving bureaucracy held together by red tape.   :patriot:

 

Wendy

[G5052]

No!!  I would not jump through any hoops trying to convince the government to retroactively reimburse $20 - my time is worth way more than that.  And I would not consider it fighting the good homeschooling fight, because even if the kid had been in public school and the forms were not sent or processed in time, I still would not spend any time or energy fighting that battle over $20.  

 

Yes, $20 is my limit for fighting on health insurance issues as well. If I get it to $20 or less after 2-3 go-rounds, I stop. I'll fight each bill, but at a certain point it's not worth it.

 

This is a long-standing issue. We know multiple local widows who have had a tough time. Supposedly HSLDA has worked on it quite a bit, but it seems more regional than national. There are national procedures, but they're handled unevenly. I'd send it along to your senator and let him handle it for that reason.

Edited April 15, 2016 by G5052

[Acadie]

$20 total, or $20/month, for how many months?

[wendyroo]

$20 total, or $20/month, for how many months?

 

If I reading this correctly...

 

Should I push the issue? We are talking about less than $20 total from the benefits stopped till this child is truly not eligible due to graduation. When one child stops receiving benefits, his/her benefits are then split among me and the other children. Due to rounding we will receive a few dollars less each month than we did before.

...then $20 total.

 

The child's benefits were stopped recently, when he turned 18, and at that point the total of the family members' benefits decreased by a few dollars a month due to rounding.  He, hypothetically, should have continued to receive benefits (and the family get the few extra dollars) for a few more months until graduation.

 

A few dollars a month x 4ish months = a total loss of less than $20.

 

Wendy

[EndOfOrdinary]

I would merely let HSLDA know. If it is on their radar, they can look into it for future issues when another circumstance arrises woth much more at stake. At that point you are paying forward all your due diligence.

[heartlikealion]

 

I pushed the issue and discovered they do not have the original 1732 form in their system. They also do not have the documentation I sent logged into their system. I pushed some more.

 

Does this mean it just hasn't been done yet or is lost? For things like this I would make copies or photographs of all documents just in case.

 

Since you said $20 total, it's probably not worth the headache, but because of the principle behind it might be worth bringing to the right person's attention. Whether that is an HSLDA association or someone else, I don't know.

[RootAnn]

HSLDA has cases like this all the time. It looks like many of them take years to settle & get the back-money.

 

You aren't asking due to the money, if I understand correctly. You are asking about paying-it-forward either for your own kids for the future or other people's kids. Based on what I've seen from HSLDA's files, one family fighting isn't going to change the system. They literally have 10 or more of these fights going on at a time. 

 

I probably wouldn't mess with the SS office anymore, but I probably would send the form to my senator so he or she is aware of the issue. It might take some sort of legislative action or official policy in place to make a wholesale change.

[Paula in MS]

I would probably at this point just try to figure out for sure what to do when your youngest turns 18 so that you won't have to go through this again.  At that point, it will be a large chunk of money.  I am going to make note of this so that I will start early when my daughter is going to turn 18 (halfway through her senior year).  She is an only and will really need that money.  Our local SS office never has a line, so in my case, that would probably be the easiest route.

 

It would be great if homeschoolers could get survivor's benefits extended until your child graduates.  It is going to be difficult to homeschool and work.  Not looking forward to that at all.

[maize]

I know that HSLDA fights the SSA over similar cases on a regular basis and is able to get benefits reinstated.

[*LC]

Thanks for the opinions. I appreciate hearing them. We are talking less than $20 total, and I would take it to the next level on principal, not for the actual money. You are probably right it won't change anything though. However, I am going to basically copy what I wrote here and send it to my senators and congressman. E-mail is cheap, so I may send it to all the congressmen from my state, since the local social security office wanted inappropriate documentation and has not been returning calls. There is no reason for that. There may have been more calls than I mentioned, but I only mentioned the ones I am sure about.

 

(I have been known to argue over a smaller amount of money on principal. We went to IHOP once for their kids eat free deal. It was 1 free kid meal (probably less than $5) for every 1 adult meal purchased. I verified there was not a limit before we ordered. We ordered an equal number of kid meals for kids meeting the age requirements and adult meals. When I went to pay, the cashier told me an amount that didn't seem right. We figured out that the computer didn't take off one of the kid meals. I showed her the offer, she said she couldn't do anything, because the computerized cash register did the calculation. She tried calling a manager, but no one came. She said I had to pay that amount, or she would have to call the police. I said that would be fine with me. This went back and forth for probably 10 minutes. Finally, she called the manager again. Based on her face, the manager probably reminded her that the customer is always right, and told her to void out the kid's meal. I probably paid more in treats for my kids for being patient with their crazy mother than I would have for the kid's meal. We were on vacation and my kids were extremely patient and didn't flinch when I said to call the police. 

Edited April 16, 2016 by *LC

[*LC]

First of all, I'm really sorry for your loss, and that you are dealing with all of this to begin with.  

 

Regarding the SS issue, I think it would be great for you to fight this to make the situation right, and (hopefully) improve the system.  But I also know we all have limited amounts of time/energy, and for your family, the payoff seems small for the time/energy you'd need to expend.  Though it sounds like the issue  needs to be dealt with sometime in the future--but maybe I'd just wait til then, and hope the system had improved??  Do you have more time now, or when your youngest is 18???  

 

I'm frustrated for you.  Keep up the good work, mom, whatever you end up doing!

Thankfully, our loss is long enough ago that this just makes me mad not weepy. Dealing with craziness at the social security office right after my husband died, about drove me crazy. I cried a lot then.

 

You are absolutely right. I sure hope I have more energy and time when my youngest reaches 18 than I do now. It took me all day to get back to all of you. When my youngest is 18, it will be thousands of dollars involved. I am not 100 percent certain exactly how much, because I don't remember if the youngest will get everything we get now or if it is reduced. It is far enough off that I will have time to research it if it doesn't become obvious when the youngest turns 16. 

 

Is this what I have to look forward to in 1.5 yrs?   :svengo:

 

I am very sorry for your loss. I hope you have better luck. It seems completely arbitrary. Knowing what I know now, I would send any documentation showing you comply with state laws in with the form 1732 even though it doesn't ask for it. I can't promise it would help, but I don't think it could hurt. (There was actually a case where SS wanted benefits to be paid back the govt after it was decided the child was not a student.) There is also a place online that may show what your state wants. I am going to post it in response to another post. 

 

Yes, $20 is my limit for fighting on health insurance issues as well. If I get it to $20 or less after 2-3 go-rounds, I stop. I'll fight each bill, but at a certain point it's not worth it.

udent after 

This is a long-standing issue. We know multiple local widows who have had a tough time. Supposedly HSLDA has worked on it quite a bit, but it seems more regional than national. There are national procedures, but they're handled unevenly. I'd send it along to your senator and let him handle it for that reason.

 

Your post and another one made me wonder about if there was a state homeschool association that knew about or was interested in this problem in my state. I never found the answer to that question. However, I found something better: the social security administration's program manual for determining who is a student after age 18. One of the things it says is each state SS office should go by what has been determined makes a homeschooled student for that state, if something has in fact been determined (confusing enough for you.) It then has a link for the determinations for the states with policies, which seems to be all states except Hawaii and South Dakota. https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0500501020

 

I read various states. Some were just legalese. Some states have actual cases of students appealing their denial. These made me mad enough that I may also send my e-mail to my region's lead counsel for social security. That seems to be who makes the determination in contested appeals. It is crazy. One state, I think Oklahoma, said it couldn't didn't decide if the student was homeschooled, because the state doesn't really define homeschooling. They ended up denying it, because the student didn't have a school official sign his certification form. His mother did sign it. A different state denied it because an online school didn't require the student to be in school a certain number of hours. 

 

For states that only require notification of homeschooling until a certain age, the SS offices seemed to rule the child was not a student if the notification was not filed even though it was not required for a 17/18-year-old. Some seemed completely arbitrary. Some rulings were very old, 1996  or earlier. One of the older ones ruled a student was a student, because the student had proved homeschooling was effective by earning her GED. (I am guessing she was asking for money retroactively, since she would no longer be a student with a GED.)

 

Does this mean it just hasn't been done yet or is lost? For things like this I would make copies or photographs of all documents just in case.

 

Since you said $20 total, it's probably not worth the headache, but because of the principle behind it might be worth bringing to the right person's attention. Whether that is an HSLDA association or someone else, I don't know.

I know I filled out the form and sent it in. I know it was received, because checking homeschool is what prompted the request for more information and then the denial. The lady at the SS appeal office admits they had to have received it at the local office, but it is not in the computer system. She had no way of knowing if the local office would put it in the system. She suggested I call them and ask. I reminded her that I had never been called back with my previous messages. I have a copy of what I sent. I have a copy of the letter I sent when I asked for more documentation. I have the appeal letter I sent. She didn't want those. With my appeal letter, I filled out the SS form that I think if what I wanted... she mentioned that form is in the computer. She did not mention my letter. 

 

I would probably at this point just try to figure out for sure what to do when your youngest turns 18 so that you won't have to go through this again.  At that point, it will be a large chunk of money.  I am going to make note of this so that I will start early when my daughter is going to turn 18 (halfway through her senior year).  She is an only and will really need that money.  Our local SS office never has a line, so in my case, that would probably be the easiest route.

 

It would be great if homeschoolers could get survivor's benefits extended until your child graduates.  It is going to be difficult to homeschool and work.  Not looking forward to that at all.

 

I hope you have an easier time, and maybe going in to ask for help for filling out the original form will help. Under the law, homeschool students are eligible for benefits until they are 18 if they are high school students. I filled out the form correctly. The form did not request any documentation for homeschooler in addition to the school's certification (which I filled out as a homeschool school adminstrator.) Look here for Mississippi's social security rules for homeschool students. https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/1608005000

The rules are from 1992 with no court cases, so that could be good news for you. 

 

I am sorry that you are facing homeschooling and working. I may be going back to work also in a few years to pay for private school for one of my other kids, which is why the youngest may not homeschool high school. 

Have you seen this link?

 

https://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/Issues/F/Federal_Social_Security.asp

 

No. I hadn't. Thank you. 

 

Of course, now I am just in an ill mood, and it made it worse. It says, "There are steps our members can take to help avoid receiving that initial rejection letter. While HSLDA takes a neutral position on Social Security benefits, we realize that many of our members are assisted by such payments. ....For homeschooled children, however, the process can be a little trickier.

The single best step you can take to convince the Social Security office that your homeschooled child is still enrolled in school is to continue to file any required notice of intent to homeschool with your state beyond the compulsory attendance age (if you live in a state that requires filing). Once the SSA sees a family’s record of compliance with the state homeschool law, the administration usually continues the benefits. If you do not live in a state that requires filing, keep good records, especially attendance records."

The problem is the SS form to prove your student is a high school student does not ask for any details (or have a space to prove compliance.) In my case, when I received a letter wanting more information. I sent the paperwork requested and explained why I couldn't send the specific form requested. I also sent a letter explaining there was not an equivalent form for my state. It was still denied. I am not a member, but will send HSLDA copies of the letters from SS, so they can use it to help someone else from my state. 

 

And I would not consider it fighting the good homeschooling fight, because even if the kid had been in public school and the forms were not sent or processed in time, I still would not spend any time or energy fighting that battle over $20.  Personally, I would just count that as the cost of living in and dealing with a slow-moving bureaucracy held together by red tape.   :patriot:

 

Wendy

Funny thing, I never turned in forms when my oldest, who was a public school student, turned 18. It was at the very end of the year, and it wasn't worth the effort. If I had taken the same approach this time around, I would have been happier. Of course, I would be very mad, if I was blindsided by this with the last child and losing thousands of dollars of survivor that he is absolutely entitled to until he graduates form high school. 

Edited April 16, 2016 by *LC

[foxbridgeacademy]

I'd probably send the letter/paperwork to the state and consider that I did my part.  For the future you might look into a cover/umbrella school who will fill out forms of enrollment so that you might be able to skip all the hassle when your younger child is 18.

[Amira]

I wouldn't pursue it to get the money back and I definitely wouldn't get HSLDA involved. But I would follow up with my representatives in Congress because they're the only ones who can actually fix this to make the requirements for homeschoolers more reasonable. It's not likely to go anywhere, but I would want to communicate with all of them to see what they might be able to do.

[zimom]

If it doesn't 'push you over the edge', I would continue to pursue this, for your youngest and for the homeschoolers behind you.   I have one with a disability and I am known to pursue some things further for those behind her as a matter of principle because life just shouldn't always be this difficult.  

[*LC]

I'd probably send the letter/paperwork to the state and consider that I did my part.  For the future you might look into a cover/umbrella school who will fill out forms of enrollment so that you might be able to skip all the hassle when your younger child is 18.

Actually in reading the various state appeal cases, cover schools and online schools seemed to get hit hard and the students that used them were deemed not students. Seems crazy. One was ruled a provider was correspondence school and that didn't qualify. If I remember correctly, that was an old case and that state may have changed the rules.

 

If it doesn't 'push you over the edge', I would continue to pursue this, for your youngest and for the homeschoolers behind you.   I have one with a disability and I am known to pursue some things further for those behind her as a matter of principle because life just shouldn't always be this difficult.  

You hit the nail on the head...there is no reason for this to be difficult (and arbitrary). The rule is the child receives benefits until high school graduation. The form asks if the student is a student; the student says yes & fills out the information about the school attendance and graduation and the homeschool parent certifies the student's answers as the school administrator. It should that simple. 

[J-rap]

For $20 total, I probably wouldn't fight it, because I wouldn't have the energy for such a small outcome.  I do understand that SS stuff.  My dh became severely brain-damaged due to a stroke some years back and I had to sort through all of this for SS disability.  We had the option of putting our girls on SS benefits, and I thought, why not?  When we did, they simply reduced the amount I was receiving, gave it to them, which ended up in my bank account in the end to pay their same expenses that I had been paying in the first place.

 

On the other hand, if you can get the superintendent of your school district to verify that you homeschool, that might be all it takes.  That's actually what we did when we first got them on SS benefits (when I thought it would be adding to our income!).  In our state, homeschoolers have to report to the district superintendent of their intentions and testing, so he was easily able to do that for us.

[Reefgazer]

This and stuff like this regarding social security benefits is something HSLDA is always dealing with. SS routinely denies benefits to homeschoolers, but HSLDA has had luck in getting the decision reversed. In fact, it's on their legislative agenda for the upcoming year. Contact HSLDA.

 

My children and I receive social security survivor's benefits since my husband died. When a child turns 18, they are no longer eligible for survivor benefits unless they are still in high school (or disabled). A month or so before the child turns 18, the parent receives a letter notifying you of this. The child receives a form to fill out and then take to his/her school to prove school attendance.

 

My child who recently turned 18 is homeschooled, so there is no school to fill out the form. The page of form SSA-1732 that the student fills out asks what type of school it is (homeschool is an option), how many hours a week they are scheduled to attend, the expected date of graduation, and few other things that are not relevant. It does not ask for anything additional for homeschool students.

 

In addition to this student form, I filled out the school form that confirmed the information on the student form. It also asked if the school program lasted more than 13 weeks and if it was a yearlong or semester program. I then agreed to keep additional forms to send in if the student stopped attending school before graduation. There was nothing on this form about homeschooling. I signed it with my name and school title.

 

After we sent in these forms, I received a letter from SS requesting more information to make a determination in his case. It says they need a "copy of completed current form PI-1206; a curriculum or list of all the courses being taught and approximate hours for each course (by day, week or month); an attendance log or chart if available; an indication of the educational level of the home school instructor."

 

I had never heard of a form PI-1206. Thanks to the internet I discovered it is possibly a form for homeschoolers in Wisconsin. I do not live in Wisconsin; I have never been to Wisconsin, so I do not have a form PI-1206. There is no equivalent form for homeschooling in my state. There was a name/number to call if I had questions. I called and was told I would receive a call back in 3 days. I did not get a call back. I sent all the other paperwork and an explanation of why I couldn't send a PI-1206. I never heard back.

 

Soon after this, I received a letter saying my child's survivor benefits would stop in x month, because he was turning 18 and not in school. It said what to do if you disagree with the decision. I wasn't too worried, because I had already sent the additional information requested. I thought the forms passed in the mail. I called and left a message with the original contact number. I was told I would receive a call in 3 days. I did not.

 

The child's survivor benefits stopped. I filled out the appeal as instructed in the letter. I never heard anything. I also called the local contact and was told I would receive a call withing 3 days. I did not.

 

Yesterday, I called the number on the appeal, and I talked to a person. She said they logged my appeal into the system (a month after I sent it) and it would take 60-90 days to reach a decision. He may graduate before that. I pushed the issue and discovered they do not have the original 1732 form in their system. They also do not have the documentation I sent logged into their system. I pushed some more. She said the states determine what is needed from homeschoolers to prove the student is in school, so I need to provide what the local SS office wants. I said I cannot, because one of the forms does not exist in my state. I said I sent everything else. She said I needed to call the local office. I said I did, but never received a call back. (We went around and around with this for a while with her making the same suggestions for every question I asked.) She did say if I won the appeal I would get the money retroactively.

 

So, in all likelihood my appeal will be denied, because the appeal office does not have access to the form I sent in certifying my student is in school or the additional information I sent about our homeschool. She did say the local office may not have entered the information yet, and they may be doing it soon. (I did call my local office again, and I have not received a call back at the 24-hour mark.)

 

Should I push the issue? We are talking about less than $20 total from the benefits stopped till this child is truly not eligible due to graduation. When one child stops receiving benefits, his/her benefits are then split among me and the other children. Due to rounding we will receive a few dollars less each month than we did before.

 

I have the form to send a request to my US senator to get involved. Should I fill it out and send it to possibly help other homeschoolers down the line? Homeschooled students are entitled to receive social security survivor benefits until they graduate just like all other students. If SS wants more paperwork from homeschoolers, they need to ask for it on the original form. If they can't do that, they need to at least ask for paperwork that relates to the student's state. It bothers me that this is so arbitrary for homeschoolers. While it does not cost us much money right now, if my youngest homeschools through high school, it would cost us a lot since there will be no one to pass the benefit to at that time. (My survivor benefits will end when the youngest turns 16.)

 

Thanks

 

P.S. I refuse to go to the local social security office, because that would take all day. It is not worth $20.

[plansrme]

I know you said you didn't want to go into the office, but if you can get an appointment, I've had a reasonably pleasant experience with our (and "our" office would be the same as yours, I believe) local SS office.  I also had a perfectly horrid experience about 15 years ago, but my pleasant experience was much more recent.  I was in and out in 15 minutes the second time.  If the local person has the authority to fix it, she might, and it might be a helpful precedent when this comes up for your last child.