Mommaof4 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) Hello. I am new to the "Well Trained Mind" forum, so forgive me if I'm asking a question that has been asked a lot. I have been using Teaching Textbooks with my son for 3 years (4th - 6th). It has seemed to work well for us, until recently. My son doesn't seem to have the concepts cemented in his brain. We only use the written textbook for the last 2 years because my son needs to put pencil to paper to learn. I actually use the workbook to teach him the concepts myself and I am VERY hands on with him and his learning. I was considering switching curriculum because of the retention issues. I have been looking at other curriculum and now I am REALLY frustrated because I am seeing how far behind he is compared to the scope and sequence in other programs. He will be in 7th grade next year and would have to start in 5th grade if I wanted to use Christian Light (which looks really good, BTW). I am at a loss. He LOVES science and I could see him wanting to go into that field for his profession, which means he needs to do really well in math! ANY input would be greatly appreciated, especially from people who have had a similar experience. Blessings..... **********UPDATE********* Thank you everyone for all of your thoughts. I have been looking at curriculum until me head was spinning. I finally place my order last night. I am going to use "Mastering Essential Math skills". I ordered book 1 and 2. It should fill in any gaps and my son should be ready for pre-algebra in 8th grade. My younger son is dylexic and really prefers black & white, straight forward pages. I decided to use the "Classic Curriculum Arithmetic Series", level 4 that goes along with Rays Arithmetic for next year. It will give him a solid foundation and then I can spend hours and hours looking at what comes next.... ;) Blessings to you all! Edited March 1, 2016 by Mommaof4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilltopmom Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 CLE is a bit tougher than other programs, TT is lighter (& runs about a year behind, IMO, although we do use it for one kiddo), so comparing them, yes, there's a big difference. Most math curriculums have an online placement test to help you figure out where to start. If you search these forums, you'll find lots of posts asking this question- is TT good enough? For some, it's not. For others, it is:). But if it's not working for you anymore,then it's time to look around for something else. CLE is cheap & you can try just one light unit to start, so if you don't like it, you aren't out too much $. Good luck. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IfIOnly Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Hello. I am new to the "Well Trained Mind" forum, so forgive me if I'm asking a question that has been asked a lot. I have been using Teaching Textbooks with my son for 3 years (4th - 6th). It has seemed to work well for us, until recently. My son doesn't seem to have the concepts cemented in his brain. We only use the written textbook for the last 2 years because my son needs to put pencil to paper to learn. I actually use the workbook to teach him the concepts myself and I am VERY hands on with him and his learning. I was considering switching curriculum because of the retention issues. I have been looking at other curriculum and now I am REALLY frustrated because I am seeing how far behind he is compared to the scope and sequence in other programs. He will be in 7th grade next year and would have to start in 5th grade if I wanted to use Christian Light (which looks really good, BTW). I am at a loss. He LOVES science and I could see him wanting to go into that field for his profession, which means he needs to do really well in math! ANY input would be greatly appreciated, especially from people who have had a similar experience. Blessings..... Hi! A few questions for you... Do you mean he doesn't have the concepts cemented from 4-6th grade or just from this current school year's lessons? If the latter, where did your ds start having issues? How do you know he doesn't have the concepts down? Does he know his math facts? There are folks who have used other curriculum who didn't feel their child had the concepts down before moving to another level and so took their child through some of the Key To books, for example. If you do a search, you will find that kids who have used many different curricula have needed them. It could be TT isn't a great fit for your ds, but it could also just be a math issue that we can help troubleshoot. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IfIOnly Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) I am finding that all math curriculum's are different, I never realized how much until recently. For example My son took the teaching textbooks placement tests and tested into 7th grade at the beginning of 5th, in Math mammoth it was 4th grade, hes in 5th grade in Abeka, in Saxon hes in 76 and when I did CLE test he was midway through 4th. They all have them start learning different concepts in different years so sometimes its not comparable other times the program may be weak, it all depends on your child's learning and what they remember and how they learn. That said I do think tt is a little behind most curricula. That's interesting. I think homeschool math curricula tends to be advanced when compared to public school curricula anyway. I think it all depends on what you're comparing. :) I have two kids who are doing school work a grade ahead what they would be doing in public school due to birthday cutoffs and the other two have late summer birthday and just made the cut off for their grades. Doing TT on grade level is perfect here. Edited February 10, 2016 by ifIonlyhadabrain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommaof4 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) ifIonlyhadabrain: He actually knows his multiplication facts better than his addition and subtraction facts....not sure why. I've noticed the retention problem with fractions and a few other things. As I was looking at CL, for example, I noticed that they have the kids reduce the fractions before they multiply in 5th grade, which I also learned in school, but had forgotten (I am not a math whiz). TT doesn't even show them how to do that and he's in 6th grade! I wouldn't be so concerned if he didn't appear to be TWO grade behind other curriculum. I have no idea how to make up two grade levels, especially since we do math year-round already! I am also concerned because I believe he will need a strong math background for his areas of interest when it comes time for college or learning a trade. What are some good, strong math programs that don't have all the bells and whistles? I also don't want any common core. Rod & Staff seems good, but he hates writing and I prefer a consumable workbook format. I am SOOOO hard to please! :tongue_smilie: I have been homeschooling for 15 years and STILL don't have the math issue resolved! UGH! Edited February 10, 2016 by Mommaof4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeachyDoodle Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) We've used CLE from 3rd-5th and love it. Because the new material is presented in such small increments, and there is so much review, it is very easy to accelerate. Obviously you wouldn't want to do that too much if you feel your ds is behind. But if you think it's more a matter of picking up some things he's missed in TT, it might be an option. We accelerate some here because dd picks up concepts very easily and just didn't need all the review. We've slowed down somewhat because I don't want her getting too far ahead, and because I feel that fractions and decimals are extremely important to master before she goes into algebra. Right now she is about 1/2 year ahead. We typically combine two lessons one day per week. So she does only the new material on (for example) lesson 2 and completes all of lesson 3. Doing that, we can complete a LightUnit in three weeks, with two extra days left over for challenge math exercises. Also keep in mind that the first LU is typically just tests of previous concepts (at least thru 6th, which is all I have used at this point). We usually skip that one because we don't take extended breaks like the public schools do, so we don't need to see what she remembers. There is review from previous grades scattered throughout the first few LU's. YMMV, of course, but it might be something to think about, at least until he's "caught up" in CLE. One more caution I would raise (not to make your decision any harder than it already is, LOL): Do you know what your plan will be for high school math? My understanding is that CLE's high school program is less rigorous. I believe the Sunrise Editions end with 8th grade. Many people switch to something else before high school. Just something to keep in mind since you're getting close. There are lots of threads on here about that particular topic that you can search for. Good luck! ETA: Because apparently I can't type. :tongue_smilie: Edited February 10, 2016 by PeachyDoodle 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IfIOnly Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 ifIonlyhadabrain: He actually knows his multiplication facts better than his addition and subtraction facts....not sure why. I've noticed the retention problem with fractions and a few other things. As I was looking at CL, for example, I noticed that they have the kids reduce the fractions before they multiply in 5th grade, which I also learned in school, but had forgotten (I am not a math whiz). TT doesn't even show them how to do that and he's in 6th grade! I wouldn't be so concerned if he didn't appear to be TWO grade behind other curriculum. I have no idea how to make up two grade levels, especially since we do math year-round already! I am also concerned because I believe he will need a strong math background for his areas of interest when it comes time for college or learning a trade. What are some good, strong math programs that don't have all the bells and whistles? I also don't want any common core. Rod & Staff seems good, but he hates writing and I prefer a consumable workbook format. I am SOOOO hard to please! :tongue_smilie: I have been homeschooling for 15 years and STILL don't have the math issue resolved! UGH! That's a tough place to be. My 7th grader is doing very well with TT7 and 6th grader in TT6. They'll also being doing enrollment in 10th, and I don't have any worries about them transitioning to college level math. For us it just works well for my kids and our particular circumstances. PeachyDoodle gave you great advice with CLE though! I wish you the best Mommaof4! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Math Mammoth is also very inexpensive - esp on a HSBC group buy- and has the blue series that focus on particular topics like fractions or division or whatever. MM is a mastery currciulum, not a spiral one and is strong on conceptual teaching. Hope you find something that works for your Ds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnMyOwn Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 CLE was a wonderful fit for us. And, if I remember correctly, you only have to go through the level 7 light units to be prepared for algebra -- so you may not be as far behind as you think. My dd went from halfway through CLE 6 into Saxon 8/7 and then algebra. If you think your son would place in the level 5 light units now, you could have him take the end of light unit tests, which are at the end of each book until you see where he needs to slow down and begin to work. The first light unit of each level is review of the prior grade, so you could probably skip that. Maybe get some flash cards or software to solidify his math facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storygirl Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 We use CLE. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things. The revised Sunrise math program now goes through algebra 1, which is their ninth grade level. They are working on switching the other high school courses over to the Sunrise version, but it's a slow process, and I don't know when the next level will be released. Also, some people do switch from CLE to another prealgebra program after the 600 level, because CLE covers prealgebra over two years, in levels 700 and 800. Some people have reported that their students were able to transition to a different algebra program after 700, skipping 800. Or even partway through 700. I think that it would have to be a strong student to go right from 600 straight into algebra, because it would mean skipping over prealgebra. We are sticking with CLE through algebra, and DD14 is working through the 800 level now. Math is not easy for her, and we want to make sure she has a thorough foundation before moving on to algebra, so we're okay with taking both 700 and 800 to cover the prealgebra concepts. It is possible to move more quickly through CLE than just one level a year, but how quickly will depend on the needs and abilities of each particular student. DD14 completed four levels in three years (400-700) by working slowly and steadily through the whole program, without skipping much. A different student could work through it faster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insertcreativenamehere Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Another vote here for CLE. It has been a great fit for us! I've used grades 1-5 and plan to continue as long as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Did you give the placement test for CLE? If so, and he placed in the 500s but missed only some of the math problems for that level, you might consider buying just the TM, the math reference chart, and Light Units 501, 505 and 510. Do CLE 501 to review previous levels. Use just the 500 TM to introduce new concepts and do periodic review at a more accelerated rate for the rest of the light units until 505. Do all of 505, but skip the quizzes and lesson 17. Mastery is not expected right away. There is a lot of review. If he is doing well then do new material and select review from the TM only until Light Unit 510, don't worry about the light units themselves. Do all of 510, skipping quizzes. Then if he does really well with 510, follow the rest of the suggestions below to accelerate through the 600s/700s. If he is still doing well, and you want to stick with CLE, continue on to the 800s at an accelerated pace and then start CLE Algebra I. This is not an ideal scenario but it means that if he isn't snagging on anything he could complete the 500s in around 3 months. If you started now, he might be done by mid-June with the 500s. Then if he passed the 510 test with an A you could probably skip Light Unit 601 since it is review. Buy all the 600 light units but do new material from two lessons and review problems from the second lesson. Skip quizzes and Lesson 17. Light units could be completed in 2 weeks each. At that pace CLE 600 could be completed in 18 weeks. Many people have successfully accelerated the 700s and 800s in the same way as above so that the 700s and 800s are completed in one year (36 weeks total or 18 weeks per level). You skip 701 if the student is solid on the 600s and skip 801 if the student is solid on the 700s. You do the new material from two lessons, the review material from the second lesson (or select review problems from both), skip the quizzes and just do the tests (or skip the tests). In other words, even if you had to start back at the 500s you could cover the 500s/600s/700s/800s in 2 years or maybe a year and a half (especially if you continued through the summer at least 3 days a week and your son didn't run into any serious issues). Just a thought... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 You could use ALEKS to fill in the holes. It's adaptive and works on a mastery system so he will only be working on the topics he hasn't test mastered. Start with grade 4 and work at least an hour a day until you hit 80% mastery. Then switch to fifth grade and then sixth. There is an initial assessment at the beginning of each level so he should be able to test out of the foundational material. You should plan to sit and teach him though since he'll probably run into a lot of unfamiliar material. Working diligently, he should be able to get through all of the elementary material before next fall. Then you can decide which curriculum you'd like to pick up with right on level 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommaof4 Posted February 29, 2016 Author Share Posted February 29, 2016 Thank you everyone for all of your thoughts. I have been looking at curriculum until me head was spinning. I finally place my order last night. I am going to use "Mastering Essential Math skills". I ordered book 1 and 2. It should fill in any gaps and my son should be ready for pre-algebra in 8th grade. My younger son is dylexic and really prefers black & white, straight forward pages. I decided to use the "Classic Curriculum Arithmetic Series", level 4 that goes along with Rays Arithmetic for next year. It will give him a solid foundation and then I can spend hours and hours looking at what comes next.... ;) Blessings to you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Yes, it is. If you like the method, then just use it at a higher level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 I haven't read all the replies, but I agree with Hilltop Mom that CLE is a bit "ahead" and TT seems a bit "behind." This is just going by what I've seen of both. CLE is simple to use and rather easy to accelerate, if you choose to do so. If you give (or already gave) your student the placement test, then I would purchase the first several light units for wherever he places and just begin. Don't pay too much attention to the level or the numbers on the books. Just go at his pace, focus on concepts and mastery, focus on facts and attention to detail, focus on good work habits and just.... breathe! :) Breathe, Mom! :) In math, solid is better than fast. We switched from Horizons Math 4 last year, about a third of the way through 4th grade. My daughter actually placed higher on the CLE test than where I started her, but I was nervous about changing programs, so we began with 402. In retrospect, she could have started towards the end of the 400 level, since she nearly tested out of it. Duh, on my part. But we did lay a good, solid foundation in those skills, and I suppose I'm not really sorry we did it that way. All that to say, CLE is "begin-able," if that makes sense. When I looked at some other math programs, it seemed that if you hadn't started with them from Day One, there was no feasible entry point. But with CLE, it is possible to leave behind whatever isn't working, and make a fresh start on a solid math course. We have been so happy to leave Horizons behind and learn with CLE Math (not that Horizons wasn't solid, it just wasn't a good fit for my kids). There are 17 lessons in each Light Unit, but some people skip the quizzes (Lessons 5 & 10) as well as the final, optional lesson (Lesson 17). That leaves 14 lessons per Light Unit, which is manageable in less than a month. We skip the quizzes for my 5th grader (she really doesn't need them), but I have my 3rd graders do all the quizzes, tests, and "Just for Fun" lessons. They all do the speed/mastery drills, also. IMO, the teacher guides are clear, the lessons are directed to the student, and there is enough of a mix of new and review to keep them moving forward while mastering the skills and concepts. HTH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodGrief Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 We did not use Teaching Textbooks for the early grades, though we did use it for prealgebra through Algebra 2 with excellent results. We used Singapore all the way through 5th grade. (I did briefly use Saxon for one kiddo and...ugh, can't remember the other program that was hot for a while. Very manipulative heavy, and a complicated system. Tried that too.) Singapore is great, but I'm of the opinion that there is no one program that has it all. I always added in math facts drill. Good old fashioned flash cards. Maybe some drill now would be helpful? I do think that there can be some learning difficulties that show themselves during adolescence. The brains are changing so quickly. Perhaps that is a factor too. Adding a tutor to the mix helps some kids. I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't change programs though. Just tossing some other ideas out there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 (edited) (Snip for space) I have been very happy with TT for the most part; my primary complaint is the two attempts at each problem on the computer. The first attempt not counting against the grade bothers me because it can take your kid two tries for every problem, but they still get a 100. So I have told dd she gets one attempt- after that view the solution so I can keep an eye on where problems are. But since you are working out of the textbook I just remembered, that's probably not an issue..... (snip) This is actually one of the things I like about it. LOL In every math class, in traditional schools (public, private, STEM & hybrid) my kids have taken, the home work is seen as practice to learn the material. Yes, they get a grade on homework, but it is more of a 'did you do your practice and learn the material' as opposed to 'did you get every problem 100% correct the first time'. Every teacher we have had from a variety of learning situations have allowed the kids to turn in their home work, get it corrected, fix the errors and then get full points. TT does the same. If you look in the grade book, it clearly marks how many attempts a student has used to solve a problem, so it isn't deceptive. I like that it gives the student immediate feed back. I would rather my student try to reevaluate their own error before viewing the answer. It gives them time to problem solve on their own before being told the answer. Then they try again immediately, and if it is wrong then they see the answer. They don't keep making errors and practicing wrong. ETA: come to think of it, the same has been true for tests too. The kids could retake tests to get full points also. If you don't like that it allows this for tests, you could just manually adjust the grade in the grade book to reflect that. It allows you to change the recorded score for every problem. I don't think you can do half points, but you can change it from right to wrong. Edited March 3, 2016 by Tap 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucasdrummer12 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) Hi um well i've been using teaching textbooks for about 1 1/2 years now and I was wondering if it is true that teaching textbooks are behind one year? My mom says that it's not but I'm am afraid that I am doing algebra in TT and pre-algebra in Saxon Edited January 16, 2018 by lucasdrummer12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommaof4 Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 ****ANOTHER UPDATE**** We did end up using "Mastering Essential Math skills" (books 1 & 2) for my older son and they were great! All of his basic math skills were cemented and I felt really good about it. I ended up sending the Classic Curriculum back for my younger son. It just wasn't a fit. We ended up printing out the EasyPeasy printable workbook and also using some Rod & Staff. It has worked pretty well for him. He is just a challenge because of the dyslexia (possible dyscalculia) issues he has. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alisoncooks Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 We really like Mastering Essential Math Skills. Oldest DD is working through book 1. Did you find it beneficial to do *both* books? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Indeed Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Hi um well i've been using teaching textbooks for about 1 1/2 years now and I was wondering if it is true that teaching textbooks are behind one year? My mom says that it's not but I'm am afraid that I am doing algebra in TT and pre-algebra in Saxon I have not used Teaching Textbooks- but it seems the consensus is Alg. 1 is some pre algebra, and a lighter coverage of algebra 1 topics. Then algebra 2 finishes those algebra 1 topics (included in other algebra 1 programs) and includes then algebra 2. Then Precalculus covers the rest of algebra 2 topics and some pre cal. So basically it covers some topics later, and I believe it may omit some topics all together. Sorry I can't help with specifics, but if you search the board there are many topics on this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) Hi um well i've been using teaching textbooks for about 1 1/2 years now and I was wondering if it is true that teaching textbooks are behind one year? My mom says that it's not but I'm am afraid that I am doing algebra in TT and pre-algebra in Saxon If you are working hard and understanding it well and can apply it in your other classes (especially science), please do not worry about it. Suppose you were half a step behind? So what? If you changed to a more accelerated curriculum, you would just have to move back a step anyway ... and then maybe you would not be understanding it so well. So if TT is making sense to you, finish TT all the way through pre-calculus, and then check your knowledge with whatever curriculum you intend to continue in -- unless you're ready for college by then, in which case, the college will place you. Edit: To elucidate a bit: When I said "if you are working hard", if you find TT too easy and boring, you might look at a more challenging curriculum, or adding some supplemental challenging problems. Also, for what it's worth, I teach math at a small public 4-year college. I wish my calculus I students actually understood everything in TT pre-calculus. They don't. Edited January 16, 2018 by kiana 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I have been using Teaching Textbooks with my son for 3 years (4th - 6th). It has seemed to work well for us, until recently. My son doesn't seem to have the concepts cemented in his brain. TBH, I've got 4 dc and my youngest is almost 12. I have not seen any of my children have math concepts cemented in their brains. The cementing didn't happen until later. I stressed out at the same time you are. By algebra 2 my dd was FINALLY well focused and not making the same simple errors all the time. I kept the dc working away with a math program that was solid and that the child was willing to do. This method seems to have worked out well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knitgrl Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 ifIonlyhadabrain: He actually knows his multiplication facts better than his addition and subtraction facts....not sure why. I've noticed the retention problem with fractions and a few other things. As I was looking at CL, for example, I noticed that they have the kids reduce the fractions before they multiply in 5th grade, which I also learned in school, but had forgotten (I am not a math whiz). TT doesn't even show them how to do that and he's in 6th grade! I wouldn't be so concerned if he didn't appear to be TWO grade behind other curriculum. I have no idea how to make up two grade levels, especially since we do math year-round already! I am also concerned because I believe he will need a strong math background for his areas of interest when it comes time for college or learning a trade. What are some good, strong math programs that don't have all the bells and whistles? I also don't want any common core. Rod & Staff seems good, but he hates writing and I prefer a consumable workbook format. I am SOOOO hard to please! :tongue_smilie: I have been homeschooling for 15 years and STILL don't have the math issue resolved! UGH! If it makes you feel any better, we experience the same thing here, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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