UPDATE in 456ish: Older boy in women's locker room WWYD

[EmseB]

Confused.

 

It's not an indictment of people's privacy preferences. It's an academic exploration regarding the existence of cultural norms, the roots of those cultural norms, and the examination of this interesting case study of when this cultural norm spawned conflict in the real world.

 

No one is being indicted for having cultural norms. It's normal to have cultural norms. In our culture it's normal to value body privacy most of the time (yet not all of the time, in very specific and fascinating ways). Nobody is being indicted for having that perfectly normal preference.

I think ridiculous and absurd are kind of loaded words then. Regardless of if you are saying the norm itself is ridiculous or absurd, it rather seems to an individual as though you are saying it is ridiculous and absurd for them to not want to be naked in front of a preteen boy (or to have their preteen girls not want to be naked in front of older boys, etc). It definitely sounds like a personal judgement. Especially when others are claiming they would never hold to such a standard themselves. But then, "oh, I'm talking about societal standards, not saying you're ridiculous for falling in with them".

[SKL]

I know that at the Y, for their preschool program, one of the female preschool teachers is in the girls locker room to help them. The preschool kids are almost all young enough to be allowed in opposite gender locker rooms still, though I can't remember if I've seen a boy in the girls for the preschool program. Since the preschool kids swim (and hence change) at a time no-one else is swimming/changing, I'm thinking maybe the other female preschool teacher goes in the boys locker room with the boys (we also have women's and men's locker rooms for adults, so people wanting to use a shower and/or get changed after using e.g. the treadmill can do that in those if it happens to coincide with preschool locker room time).

 

ETA: I don't know what this "swimwear young kids can handle on their own" is. My youngest has swim trunks, and he can put them on independently, and take them off independently, but if he uses the bathroom in the middle of swim time, he can pull them down but can't get them back up because that's just hard to do when they're wet (I've tried to talk him into peeing standing so he'd only have to pull them down a little bit, but he won't).

 

While our rec center has preschool day camps, I was actually thinking more about the school-aged ones.  They have "kids' day off" and summer camps for all grades, so we're talking 5yos (possibly even 4yos) on up.  I know I sent my kids at 5yo to day camp with a swimsuit and towel, and they changed on their own.

 

Going to the bathroom in a swimsuit, and pulling it back up after, is an issue.  (For me too!) I have always told my kids to go to the toilet right before swimming, so that hasn't been an issue for us unless we were swimming for hours.

[Bluegoat]

I'm trying to 'soften' the message that we (collectively) have ridiculously high levels of culture-wide body shame (that you clearly share) into a more comforting (less personal) message -- since you appeared to take it personally. I'm assuring you that you are in the majority and behaving normally for your culture. It's not your fault that your culture is absurd, and has widespread and completely approved ridiculous views on nudity. You don't need to feel ashamed of being a member of your culture... But, as a general sociology lesson, our culture is unusual in this area.

 

I realize you don't mean it that way, but it pretty much sounds like you are saying that you on the one hand are enlightened enough to see this for what it is, while others have fallen prey to their cultural programming.

 

You don't seem to have considered the possibility that others might also be able to be as objective as you, but not take the same viewpoint that their cultural norms are not particularly worse than most others.

[SKL]

Yes, "ridiculous" and "absurd" are very condescending terms.  Personally I think it is ridiculous and absurd to use such words if you're supposedly trying to have a respectful and intelligent conversation.

[MrsWeasley]

 

This thread is so odd to read in contrast with the one about kids playing outside without parent supervision ("Mom lets 4 year old play outside alone, gets arrested".) In that thread, people scoffed at the idea of having to physically be with their little kids while they play - or even be in earshot. I remember several posts about preschoolers walking to school unsupervised? Now the idea of an 8 year old boy getting changed on his own is the one that is considered ridiculous.

 

My opinion is that this shouldn't even be a controversy. If a family restroom is available, use it! If not, go home to get changed. Easy peasy.

I trust that most parents are the best judges of what their kids can handle, whether they allow their four year old to play outside unattended or still help their tween change.

[EmseB]

We'd call a Muslim woman a product of her enculturation process, just like we are.

 

I'm not indicting our culture, I'm describing it.

 

It's ridiculous and absurd because it is incredibly rare and exaggerated (in comparison all of human culture and history). It's unfortunate because it fails to 'do the job' it hopes to do (civilize sex, gender, and sexuality) and is therefore illogical, and yet it continues. It continues based on feelings -- in spite of being plenty of work, and consuming a considerable amount of resources, and resulting (occasionally) in people feeling bad in situations where they could conceivably feel good, if the norm were different. It's basically a superstition that creates mandatory busy work for everyone -- and that's unfortunate.

 

I suppose that's a subjective evaluation, but, it is the logically applied result of a field of study... So I wouldn't say it's completely arbitrary.

Yes, subjective is a word I would apply to that analysis. And I suspect there are differing views on this topic, even among those who logically apply views and results of historical norms to their field of study. Unless you're saying that cultures with more open nudity standards never had any issues related to how the human body (females and children in particular) was viewed or treated simply because they were more free about being naked? It seems to me to be more complex issue than you're alluding to here. More nudity does not necessarily mean healthier attitudes surrounding how others are viewed and treated or healthier body images and such.

 

 

I love the tangential discussions around here, by the way. :)

[vonfirmath]

Now I am wondering how they do this at day camps at the rec center.  They swim every day and parents are not around.  I doubt they herd all the boys into the ladies' locker room after swimming.  Nor do I assume there is a guy who goes in and watches the boys dress.  I assume the children all figure it out.  I assume that parents select swimwear their young kids can handle on their own.

 

Actually, at the swimming YMCA camp my son went into this summer, there WERE male chaperones who went into the changing rooms with the boys to help them keep moving/stay on schedule. I asked about this because my son was 7 and had never done it all himself.

 

And at that, most days my son opted to spend the rest of the day in his swim trunks instead of changing. Though I sent clothes. (We sent them in swim clothes under their clothes at the beginning of the day, per request)

 

[AndyJoy]

I teach a group of boys from 8-12. The 8 year old is maybe an inch shorter than the 12 year old and there are multiple kids in the 9-11 range shorter than him so there is that. I have mistaken a 4 year old girl for a 7-8 year old, she was bigger than my 99 percent on the growth chart daughter by a lot. I'm so very glad I'm not a comment making person and made one before I found out about why she was behaving like a toddler/ preschooler. So I would caution on assumptions.

 

Secondly, please please don't do the loud confrontation in front of everyone thing. You can go to the facilities staff with a complaint. If the boy is really ten and all the other 10 year old boys are allowed in the boys locker room he is probably embarrassed enough. My ten year old would be through the floor with embarrassment and it is probable that his mother has embarrassed him many times. Out of all the people who are likely to actually be hurt in this situation, it is probably that little boy.

I'm not sure of his age other than to say there is NO WAY he's 5-7. So regardless of whether he's "only" 8, his mom is violating the posted signs that women expect to be able to rely on, and his presence IS making people uncomfortable. I have a monster 6-year-old kindergartener who is often mistaken for 8. Plus he's in Level 3/4 and all the others his age are in Level 1 so he's with the older boys. I have no doubt people think he's older--it's been an issue since he was a toddler. I'm more aware of this issue than the average parent, and I'm usually good at guessing actual age. I would estimate this kid is around 5 ft. tall, so maybe 8 if he's at the top of the charts like my son.

 

I have no plans for an in-the-moment. confrontation. It already failed anyway when a half-naked woman tried it. I was debating sidling up to her during lessons and saying something then, but it would probably be too awkward as well, though I feel like if she were open to chatting we could work out a solution like our boys buddying up. Maybe I could lead with that?

 

She may very well not attempt it again after having a week to consider the reaction she got. That would be great. Logistically it would be difficult to alert the staff in the moment. I'd have to ask them to send someone around that time and hope the timing were right. Unless there happens to be a free lifeguard/swimming teacher on deck. That might be good; they're polite but very good about enforcing the rules.

[bolt.]

I think ridiculous and absurd are kind of loaded words then. Regardless of if you are saying the norm itself is ridiculous or absurd, it rather seems to an individual as though you are saying it is ridiculous and absurd for them to not want to be naked in front of a preteen boy (or to have their preteen girls not want to be naked in front of older boys, etc). It definitely sounds like a personal judgement. Especially when others are claiming they would never hold to such a standard themselves. But then, "oh, I'm talking about societal standards, not saying you're ridiculous for falling in with them".

I think you are grouping comments from multiple people. I made one comment to assert that our body shame standards were indeed 'radical' (in terms of culture and history) and shame-based. This was because your initial assertion that they were 'not radical' and did not involve shame was factually inaccurate in terms of culture and sociology.

 

I followed that interaction with an imediate (as far as forums go) clarification -- as soon as I read that you had taken it personally. Followed by various clarifications which you requested, which included many academic comments about social norms, and reported indications that most 'normal' people follow social norms. I only used the words absurd and ridiculous after you used them, because you used them, and I wanted to incorporate your vocabulary into my response for increased clarity. I agree they are a bit of hyperbole, but I thought they were useful enough terms. I would be more likely to use the terms 'extremely uncommon' and 'illogical' if I wasn't writing in resoponse to others who had already chosen words to work with.

 

I also never was among those who claimed I wouldn't hold to such a standard myself. I repeatedly said 'we' are comfortable with 'our' norms. I said I would ask for staff help, and made recommendations for rule changes and even facility modification to accommodate 'our' existing body shame.

Edited January 29, 2016 by bolt.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Honestly if for whatever reason I felt I had to bring my 10 year old in the women's locker room, I'd simply have him turn around and face the locker while people were dressing.

 

A six year old, though, i would not send alone to the men's locker room.

 

I would talk to the lady alone first before alerting staff.  Knowing me, I'd also probably talk to them about the 5+ rule and changing it to be maybe 7+.

 

When I have had to bring older boys into the women's restroom or changing room. This is sort of what I've done.

 

 

There was no way either of my boys could have gone into the mens locker room alone and done the things they needed to and come out the other side without incident until about age 7/8 for one of them and 9/10 for the other (for differing reasons). If there is a family changing room we've used that. If there are restroom stalls we've used that. I make a point to have them be off to the side or we use a corner or something to help make others comfortable.

 

I do not have a problem with prepubescent kids being in opposite gendered locker rooms with a parent. 

 

I preferred family changing rooms because they were smaller and easier to keep my boys focused and on task in.

[poppy]

I trust that most parents are the best judges of what their kids can handle, whether they allow their four year old to play outside unattended or still help their tween change.

Or of what girls / women in dressing rooms should be able to handle, apparently.

[Bluegoat]

Or of what girls / women in dressing rooms should be able to handle, apparently.

 

No, which is why the discussions are different.  In the case of kids on the playground, it really is mostly about whether the parent thinks the child can manage it.  In the case of change rooms, the parent is probably the best person to decide what teh child can manage, but the other people changing also need to be considered.

[bolt.]

I realize you don't mean it that way, but it pretty much sounds like you are saying that you on the one hand are enlightened enough to see this for what it is, while others have fallen prey to their cultural programming.

 

You don't seem to have considered the possibility that others might also be able to be as objective as you, but not take the same viewpoint that their cultural norms are not particularly worse than most others.

I don't think our cultural norms (on the whole) are particularly worse than most others.

 

Anyone who is objective and knowledgable knows that this is a shame-based norm, and that it is uncommonly intense. Those are accurate descriptions that do not imply anything good or bad about our culture. It just is what it is. To say that it is 'not unusual' or 'not shame based' is just incorrect, so I mentioned it.

 

I believe I could count a dozen or more times when I have said that *all* of us are prey to our cultural programming, that it is normal, and happens to everyone. That's pretty much what makes it fascinating. If I said it outright a dozen times, and still managed to imply the opposite, I guess I owe an apology... But I'm not quite sure how I accomplished it. (Maybe I should go into politics.)

Edited January 29, 2016 by bolt.

[SKL]

Why should anyone be ashamed of being shy?  I have had times when I was uncomfortable showing even my toes.  I never wore shorts for years.  I didn't own a bathing suit for years.  Nobody told me I should feel that way; most people told me I shouldn't.  But I was and am entitled to my personal comfort level.

 

I wouldn't tell other people that they have to change their cultural mores to accommodate mine.  But when it's clear that the majority of a group is uncomfortable with co-ed nudity, that should be respected.  I wouldn't go into a Hindu temple in my shoes just because I don't personally think footwear matters in there.  I wouldn't start telling Hindus that their custom is absurd and ridiculous and based on some unhealthy hang-up that was passed down.  I'd simply respect their culture.  Why aren't mainstream Americans entitled to the same respect?

[Gil]

My question is, what would you do? Would you speak up if you were uncomfortable? Would you commiserate about the setup and offer tips that worked for you? Alert the gym staff? Wait for someone else to do it? I'm curious how others would handle it.

I would speak up if I were uncomfortable. I would speak up if someone else were clearly uncomfortable. And yes, I would certainly alert the gym staff. I have no overwhelming compunction to be "nice" for "niceness" sake when I feel that me and mine are losing out while someone else is trampling on the rules to our expense. Forget that crap, the gym rules are the rules, if she can't abide by them then she needs to not use the facility.

 

It does not matter how the various individuals here or even in the room feel about it at that moment.

 

The rules are no opposite sex children over the age of 4 in the dressing room. Her 5+ year old boys are NOT ALLOWED in the womens dressing room. That is the rule and she needs to get herself together and follow the rules. If there are 1000 women in the dressing room changing and only 1 of them feels uncomfortable with the boys being there, then the policy is meant to ensure that ONE females comfort, not the 999 that don't care.

 

I'm not sure what is wrong with some people. Do that they think the mens dressing room is some dark, scary place crawling with pedophiles, kidnappers or just filled to the brim with callous bastards who would watch a child fall unconscious in the shower and just leave them there? Irregardless it doesn't matter. Take towels and leave the pool wet if you are that against using the mens room or waiting for a family room.

 

If it happened again, I'd probably make small talk with the mom or her kids to suss out their ages, if someone confronts her then "commiserate" with her plight about the lack of preferred accommodations and ask about grades/favorite subjects and other fun things they do as homeschoolers to better pin down the kids ages. Maybe invite her to consider another group for kids ages 5-10 years old and ask if her boys would be interested in joining.

 

Once I was confident that she didn't have an exceptionally tall 4 year old, then I'd report the mom to the office for bringing her 5+ year old sons into the womens room and ask that someone from the staff inform her of the policy and enforce it next time that she comes to the gym. Good grief.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Gil

[Bluegoat]

I don't think our cultural norms (on the whole) are particularly worse than most others.

 

Anyone who is objective and knowledgable knows that this is a shame-based norm, and that it is uncommonly intense. Those are accurate descriptions that do not imply anything good or bad about our culture. It just is what it is. To say that it is 'not unusual' or 'not shame based' is just incorrect, so I mentioned it.

 

I believe I could count a dozen or more times when I have said that *all* of us are prey to our cultural programming, that it is normal, and happens to everyone. That's pretty much what makes it fascinating. If I said it outright a dozen times, and still managed to imply the opposite, I guess I owe an apology... But I'm not quite sure how I accomplished it. (Maybe I should go into politics.)

 

Yeah, I think that not everyone will agree that "anyone who is objective" will agree it is a shame based norm and uncommonly intense.  Not having opposite sex kids on the cusp of puperty in public changing areas is not far out in terms of other times and places.  Not having public mixed sex nudity isn't that odd either.

[poppy]

No, which is why the discussions are different. In the case of kids on the playground, it really is mostly about whether the parent thinks the child can manage it. In the case of change rooms, the parent is probably the best person to decide what teh child can manage, but the other people changing also need to be considered.

I don't think anyone is arguing that boys should have to go alone into men's rooms. The discussion is entirely about whether moms of older boys are entitled to take their sons into women's changing rooms. So to me the question is, is that mothers plan to change more important than other girls/ women's expectation of privacy. It's not about trusting kids at all really.

[bolt.]

Why should anyone be ashamed of being shy? I have had times when I was uncomfortable showing even my toes. I never wore shorts for years. I didn't own a bathing suit for years. Nobody told me I should feel that way; most people told me I shouldn't. But I was and am entitled to my personal comfort level.

 

I wouldn't tell other people that they have to change their cultural mores to accommodate mine. But when it's clear that the majority of a group is uncomfortable with co-ed nudity, that should be respected. I wouldn't go into a Hindu temple in my shoes just because I don't personally think footwear matters in there. I wouldn't start telling Hindus that their custom is absurd and ridiculous and based on some unhealthy hang-up that was passed down. I'd simply respect their culture. Why aren't mainstream Americans entitled to the same respect?

You shouldn't be ashamed of being shy. Being shy is perfectly normal.

 

Your feelings are real, they are meaningful, they matter, and you have every reasonable reason to factor them into your personal decisions about your actions and preferences. Your comfort level is extremely important. There is no reason for you to make yourself uncomfortable in this way. No one should encourage you to be even a whisker less private than you prefer.

 

When the majority of a culture is uh cforyad with co-Ed nudity, that should absolutely be respected.

 

If I was discussing Hindu shoe culture in a detached context, and someone asked me whether it was 'absurd' or 'ridiculous' or 'unhealthy' or 'a hang up' or if it was 'passed down' I might reply using that vocabulary . If I was asked nothing, I would say nothing.

 

I don't think it's a part of 'respect' to ignore questions or requests for clarification. I was *asked* to explain why the phenomenon in question could be discribed by those words. Since that was the question I was asked, that was the question I answered.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I don't think anyone is arguing that boys should have to go alone into men's rooms. The discussion is entirely about whether moms of older boys are entitled to take their sons into women's changing rooms. So to me the question is, is that mothers plan to change more important than other girls/ women's expectation of privacy. It's not about trusting kids at all really.

 

Except most locker rooms have minimal privacy by design. The issue isn't privacy.

 

Dad's have to take daughters into the men's room too.

 

 

Little boys aren't perverts.

Little girls aren't fragile creatures.

 

They are all just children.

They will be fine.

 

It is the adults turning it into something. Prepubescent children are just that, children.

[bolt.]

Yeah, I think that not everyone will agree that "anyone who is objective" will agree it is a shame based norm and uncommonly intense. Not having opposite sex kids on the cusp of puperty in public changing areas is not far out in terms of other times and places. Not having public mixed sex nudity isn't that odd either.

Merely having a *concept* of public and private spaces is *very* far out in terms of all of human history and culture.

 

Human 'public' mixed nudity has been common around the world for millennia. It's been uncommon in a few cultures for a considerably less than that. I don't understand what this argument is about.

[frogger]

Side note for a laugh. When I sent my third child (around 4 if I remember right) to the men's lockers with his big brother he had an issue with shorts being twisted around in a knot. He didn't ask his brother for help though. I can't remember the minute details but I very well remembered he did about it. He did what seemed natural. He left the men's bare butt naked and stood out on the side of the pool looking for me shorts in hand and when he didn't find me came into the women's (where he'd dressed the previous year) and asked for help. As a ten year old he wouldn't dream of doing such things but every mom there just thought it was funny. He was obviously oblivious not out to sneak a peek.

 

 

Just last week I had a little girl watching me dress and it was unnerving. Not in a "I'm mad and never coming back here again way" but just a "ok, you can go get dressed now, this isn't how to lotion your body show." I have dry skin and if I waited until home to lotion up after getting wet I could end up with cracks or eczema. Anyway, she was standing about 4 feet away completly still just staring. It just was a reminder to me to tell my young children we mind our own business in the locker room.

[poppy]

Except most locker rooms have minimal privacy by design. The issue isn't privacy.

 

Dad's have to take daughters into the men's room too.

 

 

Little boys aren't perverts.

Little girls aren't fragile creatures.

 

They are all just children.

They will be fine.

 

It is the adults turning it into something. Prepubescent children are just that, children.

Again, that is you deciding what other girls and women should think about being seen naked by an 8, 9, 10 year old boy.

 

No one has to take anyone into a locker room. At all. Go to the family room. Go home. There are options besides 'those people who don't want to be seen naked by an opposite sex 10 year old are just wrong.'

[SKL]

Except most locker rooms have minimal privacy by design. The issue isn't privacy.

 

Dad's have to take daughters into the men's room too.

 

 

Little boys aren't perverts.

Little girls aren't fragile creatures.

 

They are all just children.

They will be fine.

 

It is the adults turning it into something. Prepubescent children are just that, children.

 

So you don't think a school-aged girl can't, all on her own, develop a sense of body shyness as she becomes more aware of herself physically?  I think you are wrong on that.

 

Many years ago, I was watching something on TV about a nudist colony.  I remember them saying that the kids all became shy and wanted to put on clothes around the time they entered puberty.  Then later thy got over it.  Now why would that happen?  Maybe it is natural.

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Except most locker rooms have minimal privacy by design. The issue isn't privacy.

 

Dad's have to take daughters into the men's room too.

 

 

Little boys aren't perverts.

Little girls aren't fragile creatures.

 

They are all just children.

They will be fine.

 

It is the adults turning it into something. Prepubescent children are just that, children.

 

It has been repeatedly asked: Would you be comfortable with your husband taking your 10-year-old daughter into a men's locker room? Would your husband be comfortable with a 10-year-old girl in the locker room with him? No one seems to be responding to that issue.

 

Little boys aren't perverts. They are, however, often very curious (as are little girls). It's unacceptable to decide for other people whether or not they have to be the subjects of that curiosity. 

 

Little girls aren't fragile. They are, however, often easily embarrassed and painfully shy about their bodies (as are little boys). It's unacceptable to decide for them that they have to experience that embarrassment and shyness when they're in a place where they should be learning to feel comfortable. What kind of lesson is that for children of either sex, particularly when we--as parents and as a culture--are usually working hard to teach them that their bodies are private and that they alone get to decide when they are comfortable and who gets to see their bodies? 

 

It's not adults only turning it into something, unless you're deliberately choosing to ignore that children of all ages have actual legitimate feelings about their own bodies. Do you teach your kids that others get to make decisions about their bodies? 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

So you don't think a school-aged girl can't, all on her own, develop a sense of body shyness as she becomes more aware of herself physically?  I think you are wrong on that.

 

Many years ago, I was watching something on TV about a nudist colony.  I remember them saying that the kids all became shy and wanted to put on clothes around the time they entered puberty.  Then later thy got over it.  Now why would that happen?  Maybe it is natural.

 

 

That's not what I said at all. As we approach puberty and our bodies change, we do develop and awareness of ourselves. For some, that results in feeling shy or self conscious.  But that is the case whether other children are in a changing area or not. Often kid developing this awareness go change in stalls because they don't want anyone one to see them.  This is true of boys and girls.

 

I remember many of the girls in my school locker room taking turns using the stalls because they didn't want to be seen.  I know boys do this too, because of my sons and their friends.

 

That still doesn't mean young children (Under 9/10 is usually what I think of young) can't be in a locker room with their opposite gendered parent.  If your child is ready and able to do so younger, wonderful. But not all children are, and it is fairly common that they aren't ready by age 4. I wouldn't expect the families to never go do fun stuff because there are no family rooms.  

 

This thread makes me so thankful my one son is very tiny for his age, he needed to be with me much longer than age four. But no one thought twice of it because he was so small.

[bolt.]

It's like when you see one of those charts of geologic time, with the sliver of time at the very end where humanity has existed on this very long lived planet... And you kinda go, "Oh." -- and feel a little like a Johnny-come-lately, silly human, minor player with a bit-part.

 

Similarly, if you had a chart of all humans, everywhere, ever, and saw the tiny sliver of us that has a body privacy shame-norm at the intensity level that we segregate children, create family change rooms, expect swimsuits for even same-sex bathing -- and feel the specific intense discomforts of body disclosure that we (*me too*) all feel (as normal members of our culture)... You'd maybe have one of those, "Oh." momemts too, and begin to think, "This is real to us, but surprisingly optional on the grand scale. I wonder what that means."

[SKL]

 

Little girls aren't fragile. They are, however, often easily embarrassed and painfully shy about their bodies (as are little boys). It's unacceptable to decide for them that they have to experience that embarrassment and shyness when they're in a place where they should be learning to feel comfortable. What kind of lesson is that for children of either sex, particularly when we--as parents and as a culture--are usually working hard to teach them that their bodies are private and that they alone get to decide when they are comfortable and who gets to see their bodies? 

 

It's not adults only turning it into something, unless you're deliberately choosing to ignore that children of all ages have actual legitimate feelings about their own bodies. Do you teach your kids that others get to make decisions about their bodies? 

 

Right, my girls at age 8/9 brought it to my attention that a younger boy was in there and looking at them while they dressed.  I wasn't saying anything about it.

 

My kids at 8/9 had no issue with the preschoolers/babies in there, but specifically felt that the 5+ boy was too old.  Again, I wasn't saying anything.

 

I would also point out that just because nobody usually says anything, that doesn't mean everyone in the locker room is perfectly comfortable with the school-aged boys in there.  Most people are reluctant to confront a parent about such a thing.  Silence doesn't necessarily mean agreement.

Edited January 29, 2016 by SKL

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

It has been repeatedly asked: Would you be comfortable with your husband taking your 10-year-old daughter into a men's locker room? Would your husband be comfortable with a 10-year-old girl in the locker room with him? No one seems to be responding to that issue.

 

Little boys aren't perverts. They are, however, often very curious (as are little girls). It's unacceptable to decide for other people whether or not they have to be the subjects of that curiosity. 

 

Little girls aren't fragile. They are, however, often easily embarrassed and painfully shy about their bodies (as are little boys). It's unacceptable to decide for them that they have to experience that embarrassment and shyness when they're in a place where they should be learning to feel comfortable. What kind of lesson is that for children of either sex, particularly when we--as parents and as a culture--are usually working hard to teach them that their bodies are private and that they alone get to decide when they are comfortable and who gets to see their bodies? 

 

It's not adults only turning it into something, unless you're deliberately choosing to ignore that children of all ages have actual legitimate feelings about their own bodies. Do you teach your kids that others get to make decisions about their bodies? 

 

 

 

I had a reasoned reply to this, until I got to the bolded. Say what?

 

 

I am not even sure where that leap comes from, that concept applies even if only one gender is in the room.

 

 

How do you go from "young kids are just kids and should be with their parent regardless of gender"  to "MY DAUGHTER HAS NO RIGHT TO BODILY AUTONOMY!"?

 

 

Wowzers.

[Bluegoat]

It's like when you see one of those charts of geologic time, with the sliver of time at the very end where humanity has existed on this very long lived planet... And you kinda go, "Oh." -- and feel a little like a Johnny-come-lately, silly human, minor player with a bit-part.

 

Similarly, if you had a chart of all humans, everywhere, ever, and saw the tiny sliver of us that has a body privacy shame-norm at the intensity level that we segregate children, create family change rooms, expect swimsuits for even same-sex bathing -- and feel the specific intense discomforts of body disclosure that we (*me too*) all feel (as normal members of our culture)... You'd maybe have one of those, "Oh." momemts too, and begin to think, "This is real to us, but surprisingly optional on the grand scale. I wonder what that means."

 

I think you are somewhat exagerining the ubiquitousness of societies that are very blase about nudity.

 

But that isn't in the end the point - I expect most people here are quite aware that many societies have far more public nudity, and that seems natural to them.

 

The point is that every society has ideas about modesty in teh general sense, and appropriate amounts of clothing in any given setting, and to a large degree, they are arbitrary or based on rather local considtions.  Things like climate, tecnology, availuability of privacy.

 

The conslusion they take is that our particular largely arbitrary set of standards isn't all that different from others - we really don't need to start having mixed sex changing rooms, or 10 year olds in opposite sex rooms, as if that will free us from - I don't know what - arbitrary standards? 

 

I would say the idea that 10 year old boys need to be with their parent at all times is at least as unusual historically, and probably in a less arbitrary way.

 

It's true I think that there is now more same-sex shyness about the body in places like change rooms.  That seems to be a relatively new thing and I think has a different origin than our longer standing social norms on this.

[poppy]

That's not what I said at all. As we approach puberty and our bodies change, we do develop and awareness of ourselves. For some, that results in feeling shy or self conscious. But that is the case whether other children are in a changing area or not. Often kid developing this awareness go change in stalls because they don't want anyone one to see them. This is true of boys and girls.

 

I remember many of the girls in my school locker room taking turns using the stalls because they didn't want to be seen. I know boys do this too, because of my sons and their friends.

 

That still doesn't mean young children (Under 9/10 is usually what I think of young) can't be in a locker room with their opposite gendered parent. If your child is ready and able to do so younger, wonderful. But not all children are, and it is fairly common that they aren't ready by age 4. I wouldn't expect the families to never go do fun stuff because there are no family rooms.

 

This thread makes me so thankful my one son is very tiny for his age, he needed to be with me much longer than age four. But no one thought twice of it because he was so small.

What a false choice - never do fun stuff or force your values on everyone else.

 

Just go change in the car .

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I had a reasoned reply to this, until I got to the bolded. Say what?

 

 

I am not even sure where that leap comes from, that concept applies even if only one gender is in the room.

 

 

How do you go from "young kids are just kids and should be with their parent regardless of gender"  to "MY DAUGHTER HAS NO RIGHT TO BODILY AUTONOMY!"?

 

 

Wowzers.

 

Because essentially, that's what you're saying here. You're saying that because some people (moms, dads, whoever) believe that other people shouldn't have hangups about who sees them in states of undress, they should be allowed to decide that their opposite sex children are going to come into the locker room, regardless of the parameters that have been set and under which the girls/women in the locker room are operating. "Sorry, tween girls, I know that you thought you could decide who gets to see you undressed in here, but actually I get to decide. You'll have to loosen up or go hide."

 

There are parameters set for these swim locker rooms. The girls/women who use them have to make decisions about how they use the rooms under those parameters. When someone decides that the parameters don't apply to them, for whatever reason, they're basically telling everyone in that locker room that they no longer get to decide who sees their bodies. Not a lesson I would want sent to boys in a mens' locker room or girls' in a women's locker room. 

[SKL]

Right, I think the idea of elementary school children needing to be with their mothers is arbitrary and historically unusual.

 

As is the idea that whatever goes on in a locker room has to be so precise that parental assistance is needed for children old enough to ride a bike and write a book report.

[bolt.]

If you are thinking about current societies, you may be right. If you are talking about the entire history of all humanity, I think I'm right. I guess it depends on one's ideas about human evolution and how long we have been a species.

 

I've not suggested that we need to be 'freed' from arbitrary standards, or make any changes at all. That is not a 'conclusion' that I have any affinity for whatsoever... Plus, I think it's unlikely that our society will move in that direction. The clear trajectory is the opposite (towards greater individual privacy).

 

(You are quite right about 10yo boys and supervision expectations.)

[AndyJoy]

I know people take their small 5/6 year olds in in violation of the posted policy. I don't think anyone cares; no one's said a word when I've been there. I personally don't, because a) my son looks 8, and b) I thought it was a good time to ease him into more responsibility, as I'm really comfortable with the facility and set up.

 

If I thought he weren't capable of changing from a suit to underwear & pants (shirt and shoes added in the hall) with me standing at the door talking to him and hurrying him along, I'd find another way that didn't involve surprising undressed women and girls.

 

Sometimes we have to scaffold our kids in areas where they don't match the level of their average age peer or the expected level of a particular organization. I've certainly done it a lot. We've left groups, avoided groups, and asked for accommodations numerous times. I called around to 6 different churches before I found an AWANA program that would let me volunteer even though I wasn't a member of that church. I wasn't comfortable with leaving him with strangers, and felt he could benefit from me there to manage his boisterousness which can be extreme in a group setting. According to my standards, he needs me there in this situation, even if most 6-year-old boys are OK on their own. But I would never dream of willfully violating an organization's policies for my own convenience.

 

As others have pointed out, no one is forcing her to send her boy into the men's room alone. She also has options other than dropping the facility.

 

1) Wait for the family bathroom.

2) Watch the family bathroom and get in when there is a break, even if it means leaving earlier than she'd planned. The kid's lesson is over, just free time remains.

3) Get a key even if she's not willing to wait or watch, and happily discover there is actually NO WAIT THAT DAY.

4) Dry him poolside, have him put on sweats over his mostly dry suit. It's 40℉-45℉ outside, he won't freeze on the way to the car.

 

I think she needs to be more creative in supporting whatever her kid's needs or hers are without infringing on the desires of others who should be able to rely on the posted policy.

[fairfarmhand]

I have a newly 8 yo boy. He would not go in the ladies' locker room.

 

Mostly because he has NO FILTER and, since he finds body humor hilarious (we're working on that, it's unkind and I know it, and I hate it that he finds this so funny) he would blurt out the most hateful, inappropriate comments. Not because he is a predator. But because BUTTS ARE FUNNY! BOOBS ARE FUNNY! I'd be mortified, his sisters would be mortified, anyone who he was observing would be mortified. He still would need help with a wet swimsuit, but I would find another way. The fact that my son needs dressing help should not obligate others to be subjected to his frank, often crude observations. I don't think I'd send him to the mens' More likely, he'd towel off as dry as possible and go home damp where he'd dress. Or I'd help him change behind a towel if that wasn't an option.

[frogger]

I think you are being very reasonable AndyJoy, I just put in the anti- loud confrontation argument because social humiliation works at times in this case it would really be humiliating for the boy just as much as the mom. I just feel bad for the boy. And I mentioned it more in response to many of the other posts than yours.

Edited January 29, 2016 by frogger

[zoobie]

What a false choice - never do fun stuff or force your values on everyone else.

 

Just go change in the car .

Or change in the family rooms provided by the facility. The option of "I and my children are special, special snowflakes for whom no rules apply" is crap.

[AndyJoy]

I think you are being very reasonable AndyJoy, I just put in the anti- loud confrontation argument because social humiliation works at times in this case it would really be humiliating for the boy just as much as the mom. I just feel bad for the boy.

No worries! Your subsequent posts made it quite clear you weren't accusing me of anything ;). I recognize that even if I confront her "nicely" she could be really upset and "go all momma bear" on me. I don't think she needs to be publicly shamed. It's most likely not the boy's idea and I wouldn't want him to be mortified any more than I want the girls in there mortified by his presence. If he came in alone he'd likely get yelled at to get out, but he doesn't deserve that when it's his mom's doing.

[happi duck]

If a kid in a kindergarten class spilled juice on themselves would you expect the teacher to grab their emergency clothes and have the kid change right there in the classroom? What about a ten year old? What if the teacher wanted to change their own clothes?

 

I think we'd be mad if our kid had to change clothes in front of the other kids...that isn't the expectation. The posted rules at the gym make having older kids in the opposite locker room not expected.

 

We get to choose who sees us naked...it's a respect thing not a shame thing, imho.

 

 

.

Edited January 29, 2016 by happi duck

[TXBeth]

What about approaching the mom and saying something like "hey, I couldn't help but overhear what happened in the locker room the other day. Want to have our boys buddy up at changing time so we don't have to worry about them alone in the men's room?"

[HS Mom in NC]

What about approaching the mom and saying something like "hey, I couldn't help but overhear what happened in the locker room the other day. Want to have our boys buddy up at changing time so we don't have to worry about them alone in the men's room?"

 

Brilliant!

 

[73349]

Some thoughts:

My DS could not remove a wet swimsuit and dress himself until he was maybe 6.5. We didn't break the rules, although that meant that for a year there was a public pool we couldn't use because there was no family changing room--and the age cap was 5. It's interesting to contrast my state law (which forbids parents to leave kids under 8 unsupervised in an enclosed place) with this policy at the city-owned pools (only the newest of which have a family changing room).

 

My son is tall for his age and "young" for his age; people's guesses are often off by ~4 years, and have been for the same length of time. He does have a "Class of 2026" t-shirt, but he can't wear that every day. When a 5yo looks 9 and acts 3, it doesn't go over well, does it?

 

Some public bathroom doors are so heavy that a 50-lb. child cannot reasonably get them open from the inside. Even now, when I send DS into a men's room, I watch him open the door to verify that he will be able to do so. A men's room is typically a safe place (though it's a marginally less safe place than a women's room whether you are a little girl or a little boy, just on the basis of being occupied by men rather than women), but bathrooms in public places are overwhelmingly designed for adults. There should be family rooms everywhere.

 

Bottom line: Since there is a family changing room, they should be using it, unless he is actually a very large 4yo; but in most places I've been, the problem is the facility itself, not the people using it.

 

[AndyJoy]

What about approaching the mom and saying something like "hey, I couldn't help but overhear what happened in the locker room the other day. Want to have our boys buddy up at changing time so we don't have to worry about them alone in the men's room?"

Great minds think alike ;). That was one of my plans for a poolside chat upthread. That's probably the one I'm most comfortable doing, personally.

[Haiku]

I wouldn't have cared at all.

[Pen]

I know people take their small 5/6 year olds in in violation of the posted policy. I don't think anyone cares; no one's said a word when I've been there. I personally don't, because a) my son looks 8, and b) I thought it was a good time to ease him into more responsibility, as I'm really comfortable with the facility and set up.

 

If I thought he weren't capable of changing from a suit to underwear & pants (shirt and shoes added in the hall) with me standing at the door talking to him and hurrying him along, I'd find another way that didn't involve surprising undressed women and girls.

 

Sometimes we have to scaffold our kids in areas where they don't match the level of their average age peer or the expected level of a particular organization. I've certainly done it a lot. We've left groups, avoided groups, and asked for accommodations numerous times. I called around to 6 different churches before I found an AWANA program that would let me volunteer even though I wasn't a member of that church. I wasn't comfortable with leaving him with strangers, and felt he could benefit from me there to manage his boisterousness which can be extreme in a group setting. According to my standards, he needs me there in this situation, even if most 6-year-old boys are OK on their own. But I would never dream of willfully violating an organization's policies for my own convenience.

 

As others have pointed out, no one is forcing her to send her boy into the men's room alone. She also has options other than dropping the facility.

 

1) Wait for the family bathroom.

2) Watch the family bathroom and get in when there is a break, even if it means leaving earlier than she'd planned. The kid's lesson is over, just free time remains.

3) Get a key even if she's not willing to wait or watch, and happily discover there is actually NO WAIT THAT DAY.

4) Dry him poolside, have him put on sweats over his mostly dry suit. It's 40℉-45℉ outside, he won't freeze on the way to the car.

 

I think she needs to be more creative in supporting whatever her kid's needs or hers are without infringing on the desires of others who should be able to rely on the posted policy.

 

 

I agree, and maybe it would not be bad to talk with her about it if you felt able to do so.

 

The thing is that, IMO, if the sign said no one of opposite gender over age 10 could be in a dressing room then at least those who felt they need privacy would know and could go into a toilet stall and drip all over toilet or whatever. 

 

If 10 year old appearing boys go into women's changing area, then it likely causes women who feel they need more privacy to tend to want to use the family rooms thus putting more burden on those rooms, so that people who need them can't get in.... in a vicious cycle.

 

I wonder that the boy does not resist going into the women's area...to me that is a little strange itself. If he is 10 he seems to be a young sort of 10 not to object. I wonder if he had a same age friend to go into the men's room if that could be yet another option. Or the two brothers together if the mom is worried about safety.

[Guest]

My five year old changes alone in the boys locker room at swimming because they have the same rule and NO family option. I think it's stupid and it makes us late because he dawdles and plays, but what can you do? Some moms break the rule but I'm not a huge fan of knowingly doing that and my little guy CAN get dressed, just reeeeeaaaly slowly and with a lot of messing around. My husband told me when he was in there on a day I wasn't at swimming that every boy, regardless of age, was totally off task and playing.

 

There are worse things I suppose, but we have a really tight schedule and I admit I hate that rule.

 

I'd love to have a swimming locker room that had NO age or sex limits, just showers and benches. I don't even care if my girls see a grown man using them or a teen boys sees me naked. I couldn't care less. It would make life much easier on swim day.

[kiwik]

It isn't clear at all, as I have never heard anyone suggest this outside of this thread. The expectation is that family changing rooms are for families with young kids.

I only have sons. Now they are both school age we use a family room but I didn't when they were preschoolers and I wouldn't if they were girla unless it was very quiet.

 

Eta. Unless I had a runner.

Edited January 30, 2016 by kiwik

[scoutingmom]

I'm trying to 'soften' the message that we (collectively) have ridiculously high levels of culture-wide body shame (that you clearly share) into a more comforting (less personal) message -- since you appeared to take it personally. I'm assuring you that you are in the majority and behaving normally for your culture. It's not your fault that your culture is absurd, and has widespread and completely approved ridiculous views on nudity. You don't need to feel ashamed of being a member of your culture... But, as a general sociology lesson, our culture is unusual in this area.

Fine, yup, got it, not changing, thanks

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[scoutingmom]

Well, just saying that I think most NT kids can manage a locker room by age 6. 5 might be a bit young. I didn't have much choice when my son was turning 6 (our place allowed 5 and under in with you) because we had 15 minutes available to change, and time to drive home before my dh had to leave for work (worked evenings and nights.) 5 minutes to spare. It was the only swim lesson time we had possible, and the family dressing room would be too long to wait. I'm in Canada with COLD winters so he had to change there. So, I spent the time we still had training him while in the ladies room to do it all himself, until he could do it all without a word from me. He turned 6, and into the men's room he went... with an understanding that if hd was late coming out, he would miss the next swim lesson because Dad couldn't be late for work. He was capable. Yes, he missed the occasional next lesson, and once I sent a male staff member to check. Yes, I was nervous at first.

 

I have also trained my daughters in the same way.

 

And this was the norm when I was a kid. There was no family change rooms or family bathrooms. Yes, I'm glad they exist. Yes, not all kids are ready, but a lot of the time it is thd parent that isn't ready. As a Scout/Guide Leader over the past 25 years I have seen kids can often do more than their parents think they can... and that difference has increased. Kids don't need bubble wrap.

 

I have reported over-age boys in the change room to staff, they take care of it.

 

In th OP, there was a family change room. Absolutely report if he is in there again.

 

I live in North America, I will live my cultural norms even if someone thinks they are rediculas. I also am fine with Europeans living their nirms in Europe. And Asians living their norms in Asia. If I'm jn another country, I will do the best to behave in a manner that is hopefully comfortable enough for me and those of that culture.

 

 

 

 

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[abba12]

Anyone who is objective and knowledgable knows that this is a shame-based norm, and that it is uncommonly intense. Those are accurate descriptions that do not imply anything good or bad about our culture. It just is what it is. To say that it is 'not unusual' or 'not shame based' is just incorrect, so I mentioned it.

 

Yes it's uncommon in the grand scheme of international culture

But no, I will not agree it's shame based. For me, it's a matter of being in complete control of who sees my body. I've been a victim of abuse, controlling it is VERY important to me. I turn my back and *I* have decided I am ok with women seeing me from the back. I have not decided I am ok with an almost pubescent boy seeing me. It's not shame, it's my choice not to allow men to see me naked because my body is special and I will only let it be seen on my terms, when I choose and control it. I am not his anatomy lesson, I am not his 'magazines are airbrushed' lesson. I have a right to choose for only women to see me because I want to, end of story. 

 

And as far as your cultural norm argument, I am fairly certain that in societies where nudity is culturally normal, 10 year olds having to be in line of sight of their mother at all times is pretty darn abnormal. At 10 he would either be independent (european countries)  or with the men (african countries). In countries with acceptable nudity, 10 year olds are not children attached to their mothers by any means, so the whole argument falls apart. This situation wouldn't happen in EITHER place. 

 

I wouldn't tell other people that they have to change their cultural mores to accommodate mine.  But when it's clear that the majority of a group is uncomfortable with co-ed nudity, that should be respected.  I wouldn't go into a Hindu temple in my shoes just because I don't personally think footwear matters in there.  I wouldn't start telling Hindus that their custom is absurd and ridiculous and based on some unhealthy hang-up that was passed down.  I'd simply respect their culture.  Why aren't mainstream Americans entitled to the same respect?

 

Exactly

 

 

Except most locker rooms have minimal privacy by design. The issue isn't privacy.

 

Yes it is. Changing rooms have privacy from the opposite gender by design. I have CHOSEN to be ok with women seeing me change with my back turned, and that particular privacy is built into the rooms. I have not chosen for young men to see me change, and 10yo is in a very sticky place right between child and young man. The issue is COMPLETELY privacy, and my ability to choose who, or what categories of people I let see me naked. 

 

Also, you cannot say that ALL 10 year olds are non-sexual. I know too many little children of both genders who were abused by older boys to know that is NOT the case. Perhaps most 10 year olds are not going to think sexual thoughts (I would debate this personally, but not here and now, so let's say you're right) there are still some who will think sexually, and look sexually. That's not debate, that is fact, as uncomfortable and taboo as it is there are 10 year olds who have sexually abused younger children. I know them, I went to school with them, IT HAPPENS. Homeschoolers are sometimes a little sheltered because other homeschooling parents are usually involved in their kids lives. But mainstream kids sometimes have issues. It's not their fault, but I'm not going to let them work out their issues with my kids either. I remember being touched sexually by a 9yo boy who I now know was being abused himself. There is no way I would be comfortable with a child like that boy seeing my young girls naked, so I'm not going to let ANY boy (over kindergarten age) see them naked until they're of an age to decide themselves

 

 

Because essentially, that's what you're saying here. You're saying that because some people (moms, dads, whoever) believe that other people shouldn't have hangups about who sees them in states of undress, they should be allowed to decide that their opposite sex children are going to come into the locker room, regardless of the parameters that have been set and under which the girls/women in the locker room are operating. "Sorry, tween girls, I know that you thought you could decide who gets to see you undressed in here, but actually I get to decide. You'll have to loosen up or go hide."

 

There are parameters set for these swim locker rooms. The girls/women who use them have to make decisions about how they use the rooms under those parameters. When someone decides that the parameters don't apply to them, for whatever reason, they're basically telling everyone in that locker room that they no longer get to decide who sees their bodies. Not a lesson I would want sent to boys in a mens' locker room or girls' in a women's locker room. 

 

This, completely.

 

 

And you know what? This is exactly the reason I am one of the people taking up room in the family locker rooms. I have three little girls, so we are all the same gender. But I have seen 8 and 10 year old boys in the womens room, and I am not comfortable either changing or letting my little girls change in front of boys that age. I'm just not. So we line up for the parents room or I take a bathroom stall and change the girls on the grass with towels up. 

 

It's not a matter of 'he's too young to go into the mens room', there's many other options to handle the situation, none of which the family wants to take. 

 

And for the record, my almost-5yo could go and get changed just fine by herself. I recognize other kids develop differently, and I think a limit of under-6 would be much more reasonable, but there's no way an 8-10yo who is neurotypical should need help, there just isn't. 

Edited January 30, 2016 by abba12