Wow. I Wonder How Common This Is?

[Reefgazer]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/mom-wanted-her-daughter-to-flunk-but-the-school-wouldnt-back-her-up/2015/07/31/69f46156-3645-11e5-b673-1df005a0fb28_story.html

 

[rose]

This doesn't surprise me at all. My sister was routinely encouraged to skip out on the standardized testing days because she was doing poorly due to delinquency issues. Her teachers cut her a ton of slack because they didn't want to see her again the next year.

[Tsuga]

Mom honorably and bravely replied to comments in the comments section. Wow.

[Plink]

I wonder if this child is gifted but bored.  Knowing the material better than the other students despite skipping classes and refusing to do homework isn't common.  I feel bad for both her and her parents.

[rebbyribs]

My brother had a school year like that in middle school, about 20 years ago.  He was promoted anyhow because the school thought he was ready for the next grade level and he was already the tallest kid in the school.  Part of what was going on with him was that there were some underlying learning disability issues that he had been able to compensate for very well during elementary school.  In middle school, the homework load got much bigger, and while he was understanding the material just fine, he was having trouble keeping his school papers organized, planning out his time, and producing the larger volume of written work.  Partway through the year, he pretty much stopped trying.  

 

I didn't learn the truth about what had happened until this year.  My mom had tried to persuade the school to give my brother  the failing grades he had earned, in the hopes that it would finally sink in that he needed to put in the effort to pass his classes in the future.  The school refused.  My mom came home from her meeting with the principal and explained to my brother that he had been going to fail 7th grade, but that there was work he could do at home over the summer to be able to go on to 8th grade in the fall (lots of reading and book reports.)  Long-term, it all worked out okay for him.  He did reasonably well in high school, went on to a good college, and has since gotten a master's degree.

[Tsuga]

They let me fail, and it did kick my butt into gear. I think letting me remain in denial would have been the worst ever. I am glad I failed a class before high school!

[shawthorne44]

I've been a teacher and I saw it myself.  

[Murphy101]

This was me in high school.

 

So I'm torn about this.

 

I despised school. Even in elementary. Really really hated school.

 

But I loved learning and always have. Despite doing very well in English on standardized tests, I rarely got above a .03% in English. Yep. That's right. .03. I actually had an English teacher screaming and crying at me in the hallway that she just couldn't compel me to give a single care for any assignment. She knew I knew the material. I had obtained all the books and resources used off the class syllabus the first day of class and had finished reading them all by the 2nd week of school. I remembered it and could converse about it. But nope. Not interested in the test or essays. *yawn* Grades have never been compelling to me. F? A? It's just a letter of the alphabet. *shrug*. I often did the same thing in history and science. I struggled in math, but I could do the work. My big problem in math was I never had enough time. It always took me triple the amount of time to work it and I was never given that time.

 

Despite missing over 30 days (iirc) of English my junior year, I passed. Despite that .03 in 7th grade and an F in gym class (gah. I loathed gym the most!) I passed that and all my other failing courses every year.

 

I was fairly nice, didn't hang out with the wrong crowd or get into trouble.

 

I just didn't give one toot about wasting my time on busy work proving in triplicate or more (home work, tests, projects, reports, quarter exams, standardized tests) that I knew what those people already knew I had learned. It was boring and insipid and I had other things I preferred doing. Like playing in the creek, hiking, reading, daydreaming... Pretty much anything.

 

Other than beating me, well including that actually, they (school and parents) couldn't compel me to want to be there or to do the work.

 

I'm confused by the parents insistence on the school parenting their child. I'm not sure what they should do, but I know it isn't a school problem.

 

I also think the notion that trade schools should be dumping grounds for the academicly weak or the lazy is ignorant and rather insulting to those who work in trades.

 

The young woman doesn't want to be there.

 

That's the problem.

 

I'm not sure how holding her back or expelling her or sending her to another school fixes that problem.

[Mrs. Tharp]

Really, really common. And it sends a terrible message to the students who do this, and a possibly even worse one to the students who did make an effort. It makes it look like the school has no integrity and that the work assigned has no intrinsic value. 

[SKL]

Well I think it's right to pass the girl.  She knows the material.  There is no point having her repeat the course.  English class isn't supposed to be reform school.

 

Mom wants her daughter to learn a lesson, I understand that, but IMO that isn't the school's primary job.  Since she knows her daughter has an issue, maybe she should put her in some sort of work program over the summer or something.  Or just let her daughter learn from real life like everyone else.

 

My mom had a teacher who didn't like her, and flunked her in 9th grade English because she missed exactly 21 days of school over the year.  She was a high achiever up to that point.  She ended up dropping out of school on her 16th birthday because it was ridiculous for her to be in school a year longer though she knew more than everyone else.  Holding a bright kid back IMO makes it more likely that she will drop out rather than continue on in a productive direction.

[SKL]

Frankly what they ought to do is accelerate that girl in English.

[Mrs. Tharp]

The young woman doesn't want to be there.

 

That's the problem.

 

I'm not sure how holding her back or expelling her or sending her to another school fixes that problem.

 

I disagree with this last. If the young woman doesn't want to be there, that's her problem and her family's, not the school's. It's not the school's responsibility to fix a lack of interest or motivation or immaturity. The parents are not trying to get the school to parent their child, they are trying to get them to enforce their own standards--something that is the school's responsibility.

[SKL]

And I too was somewhat of a slacker.  I did the work (except when I was openly protesting it), but my attendance and participation were awful.  Few teachers gave me a hard time.  They liked me.

 

I still suck at being prompt and participating in meetings, but I found my niche and managed to be a productive member of society anyway.

[wendy not in HI]

I was on a panel at an elementary school a few years ago.  I'm not sure exactly what the panel was for, but it included teachers, admin and a couple of parents.  We discussed the budget and things like test scores and the school's No Child Left Behind "score".  I remember hearing that the school was not "allowed" to hold back students, because each student held back a grade was counted against the school in the No Child Left Behind grades that were given to the school.  The No Child Left Behind "grades" were based on how well the students did in the standardized testing and a few other things, one of which was how many students failed a grade and were held back - so basically, no one could be held back, even if it was the best thing for the student, because it would make the school look bad.

[SKL]

If she were homeschooled and knew the material to a reasonable degree at the end of the year, would most homeschooling parents have made her do the same course over again?

[Murphy101]

Really, really common. And it sends a terrible message to the students who do this, and a possibly even worse one to the students who did make an effort. It makes it look like the school has no integrity and that the work assigned has no intrinsic value.

But the real question is:

 

Did the work have any intrinsic value?

 

It's highly possible it did not.

 

The work is supposed to help someone learn. That's the only value it might have had.

 

The grades have never had integrity. Not in our grandparents day and not now. So often a great essay gets an F bc for the most part the teacher just didn't like it or the student. A kid can get an A for a science project that is not even slightly unique or even particularly difficult. Test regurgitation is common and has no value imnsho.

 

Learning has intrinsic value.

 

Learning and "school work/grades" are not synonyms.

 

As for sending the other kids a message...

 

I'm always astounded so many never seem to get the message in their own. I blame schools for that. ;p

[PrincessMommy]

They let me fail, and it did kick my butt into gear. I think letting me remain in denial would have been the worst ever. I am glad I failed a class before high school!

 

I agree.

 

From the article's author:

 

"I have long been sympathetic with high schools that think it is better to give diplomas to students who resist school rather than forcing them to sit in class, resentful, and then drop out with even less of a chance of getting a job."   

 

What the heck??  How does avoiding consequences really help in the long run? 

 

What's even sadder is that Fairfax county is touted as one of the best  in the country. 

 

[Murphy101]

I disagree with this last. If the young woman doesn't want to be there, that's her problem and her family's, not the school's. It's not the school's responsibility to fix a lack of interest or motivation or immaturity. The parents are not trying to get the school to parent their child, they are trying to get them to enforce their own standards--something that is the school's responsibility.

Grades are meaningless wrt to actual learning standards and that's nothing new.

 

The standard is to teach and pass those who seem ready to move on.

 

The teachers, for whatever reason, felt she was ready to move on.

 

Or that they had no reason to think staying behind would teach her more than it did the first time.

[Mimm]

I haven't read the thread but I got to this part in the article and I must say... I'm firmly on the teacher's side here.

 

 

It was breathtaking to the Fairfax parent, as it would be to other mothers and fathers, to learn that the teacher could have justified a final grade of F but didn’t think there would be an academic benefit to failing the student. The daughter knew the material better than most of the students, said the teacher, who let her pass despite her misbehavior.

 

That was my husband. He was very smart. They didn't have classes that would have challenged him in math or science. He refused to do homework because he was bored and knew the material inside and out. He'd get over 100% on the tests and a C in the class because of missed homework. He refused to jump through hoops to prove what the teacher already knew. That he knew the material. What is the goal here? That the child learn? Or that the child learn to obey? I'm not saying there isn't value in learning to go just with the system, do what you have to do, etc. But that's not what my husband learned. He learned that his teachers didn't care if he knew the material, that grades were meaningless and did not accurately reflect his ability, and that he thought the entire system was a joke. It killed his love of learning and preventing him from continuing his education after high school. He should have been earning scholarships and a graduate degree, but instead he was completely disillusioned.

 

He has a medal from a math competition. He won, out of the entire city, best at math for sixth grade. That same year, his math teacher failed him just to prove some kind of point. I know what she was trying to teach him, but that's not the lesson he learned. He's in his 30s and still bitter about it. I wish she had considered for one second whether it was an "academic benefit" to fail him. :(

[Mimm]

Really, really common. And it sends a terrible message to the students who do this, and a possibly even worse one to the students who did make an effort. It makes it look like the school has no integrity and that the work assigned has no intrinsic value. 

 

It doesn't have an intrinsic value. It only has value in it's ability to teach the student the material. If the student already knows it, then it doesn't have value. If the student learns a lot from the assignment, it's of great value.

 

My photography students were skipping homework and I said, "Do you think I need you to take pictures? No. These assignments are for your good, not mine. I'm not running some photography sweat shop around here."

[Mimm]

If she were homeschooled and knew the material to a reasonable degree at the end of the year, would most homeschooling parents have made her do the same course over again?

 

This. Am I the only mom who goes through and crosses things off assignments that my child knows? What is the intrinsic value of making her do something for the 20th time that she knows backward and forward. I'm interested in what she learns, not producing worksheets.

 

ETA: Is anyone else's multiquoting broken? :p

[Murphy101]

My dh was a straight A student who dropped out of college because he hated it.

 

He actually hated school just as much as I did, but he was a people pleaser. The only reason he did the work was bc he just didn't want to bother with an argument about it. Me? I didn't argue about it. I just didn't do it and went about my life. Sure teachers or whoever would argue at me about it, but I didn't respond much. Just said, "no" and kept on going. I didn't lie or whatever. I just refused.

[FaithManor]

I don't know what the answer is to these types of problems, and I can see BOTH sides to this argument because each has valid points. Doing nothing and passing isn't good preparation for the work world, but if the state law doesn't allow the school to bounce out kids who don't want to be there and ties funding to performance than a vested interest in passing or the sake of passing has been created.

 

I think allowing for a wider variety of tracks and types of demonstrating of learning would benefit all students. But, I do think that the young lady needs a wake up call. Likely this could be achieved by allowing her to drop out, get a GED, work a low paying no thanks job in which management doesn't give a rip and which has NO future so she is forced to think about the future, and then letting her figure out the vocational path, community college path that she would like to follow.

 

I really believe that educational policies that force schools to house unwilling students past the age of 14 are not helpful. I also think we've taken a lot of things out of the schools that used to hold student's interests. Some of those things have been moved to the tech centers, but a number of them were cut so that the tech center offerings are in many states not robust, and usually now require the student to be a junior and have algebra 1 and geometry passed before being allowed to attend the tech center thereby practically defeating the purpose which is to offer trades and professional style learning, hands-on experience which may keep students with different learning styles and less academically motivated kids learning and progressing forward. As far as I'm concerned, tech centers should have a bazillion program options and begin in 8th grade. Keep your nose clean, don't get in trouble with the law, bully people, or create chaos, and you can go to tech center.

 

I have a feeling I would not be popular with the educational policy people, LOL!

[goldberry]

I can see both sides of this.  But what is it ultimately teaching the student but that she doesn't have to follow the same rules and consequences as everyone else, and that she is somehow special or immune?

[Arcadia]

Mom's replies in the comments section were more interesting than the article. Apparently the child is great at languages and hate math. The child did algebra twice and geometry twice.

 

I do agree with the mom that her child needs an education plan that would work better for the child. Also someone to help the parents figure out if their child hate math (because she just have no liking for it) or if the child finds math hard.

[SKL]

I don't agree with the premise that school is comparable to real life for anyone who isn't going to do a 9-to-5, on-site office job for her entire life.  For many bright people, that is less and less of a realistic expectation.

 

When I was 15, I applied for early graduation (for the following year).  Later that school year, I had a problem getting to school one day (it was a mile walk and I kept getting drenched by sudden downpours - for real - then I had to dry my jeans in the dryer and didn't get to school until noon).  This was a couple days after I had given what was considered a flippant remark when asked for my excuse for being a little late (I said "I guess I walked too slow" because I didn't want to fake an excuse).  So they were fed up with my horrible attendance record and attitude, and called me down to the office.  I was non-chalant about the 3-day in-school suspension and the threat of having a detention for every tardy for the rest of my life.  But then the principal told me he wasn't going to sign my application for early graduation if I didn't shape up.

 

I became the most prompt student you can imagine from that day, until the day the principal signed that paper.  And then I went back to my old ways.  I do not believe there was anything good about me being on time to homeroom every day, other than the fact that it ultimately got me out of high school all together a year earlier.  I hated being there.  I always felt like it was a waste of time, and that is a lot of time to waste.

 

Now maybe they will find a way to motivate this girl to show up and do what they demand.  But is that really such an accomplishment?

[Murphy101]

This. Am I the only mom who goes through and crosses things off assignments that my child knows? What is the intrinsic value of making her do something for the 20th time that she knows backward and forward. I'm interested in what she learns, not producing worksheets.

 

ETA: Is anyone else's multiquoting broken? :p

I think there is a difference between adjusting the assignments to reflect the student learning needs and just BSing the student about the assignment's value to compel them to do it and then totally back peddling when they call the bluff. (Which is basicly what nearly all schools do.)

 

If I tell my kids, "It is important that you do well on this. I will be grading it and the grade will affect you."

 

Then it does. And they know I will not change the grade they actually earned on the assignment.

 

It's rare I bother with this bc this is not my teaching or planning style.

 

But yes, if they earned an F in a subject, then an F (or C or D) is what I have put on the transcript I make for them.

 

If the assignment had no value, then I wouldn't assign it and so the question of grade on it would be moot.

[Butter]

What's even sadder is that Fairfax county is touted as one of the best  in the country. 

 

 

It most definitely is... on paper (I lived in Fairfax County for a while... it was actually pretty fun explaining to extremely shocked people that I homeschool my kids even though we had "the best schools in the country").

 

This doesn't surprise me in the least.

 

My best friend (in Utah) has a son who was in 7th grade this past year.  He failed math (and art).  It is most definitely not that he doesn't understand the material.  He understands it quite clearly.  He just chooses not to turn in his homework, particularly if he doesn't like the teacher.  So he failed math and art and my best friend went to the school to ask about summer school.  She wasn't concerned about art, but math is kind of important.  They said that they don't require summer school *at all* in their district until high school and he would still be passed on to 8th grade - including 8th grade math - anyway, but if she wanted, her son could do summer school math.  It was only one week (5 days) four hours a day.  On the computer.  No teacher teaching or anything.  Her son hated it.  It was a good consequence for failing the class.  We'll see if it changes anything in his refusal to turn in homework next school year.

 

My brother was really good at making sure he got C's and D's, but he was another one who refused to turn in homework or make much of any effort if he didn't like the teacher.  It amuses our family to no end that he's got a PhD now and is a college professor.  He has had situations where he failed *college* students and had to defend and give evidence as to why they deserved to be failed and not given a D.  College!  This spans at least two of the universities he has taught at (BYU and Central Florida).  Not sure if he's had to defend failures at the current university where he teaches.  Reason why they usually failed?  They attended a class or two and then never showed up again, never took a single test, and never turned in a single assignment.  And the professor has to defend failing the student and prove he tried to get the student to attend class/do their work.  Pretty crazy.

 

As for this girl specifically, she could probably be well served by an alternative path.  I had a friend who just hated high school.  He was so incredibly bored.  He ended up doing part of the day at the high school and part of the day in an alternative program where he got to work at his own pace.  It was a good compromise.  I'm pretty sure he'd've dropped out if he hadn't been able to do school that way.  I think I heard he finished a year or so early.

[Mimm]

I think there is a difference between adjusting the assignments to reflect the student learning needs and just BSing the student about the assignment's value to compel them to do it and then totally back peddling when they call the bluff. (Which is basicly what nearly all schools do.)

 

If I tell my kids, "It is important that you do well on this. I will be grading it and the grade will affect you."

 

Then it does. And they know I will not change the grade they actually earned on the assignment.

 

It's rare I bother with this bc this is not my teaching or planning style.

 

But yes, if they earned an F in a subject, then an F (or C or D) is what I have put on the transcript I make for them.

 

If the assignment had no value, then I wouldn't assign it and so the question of grade on it would be moot.

 

You have that luxury as a homeschooling parent. In a school classroom, a teacher assigns something that may be of great value to some students and absolutely no value to other students. If the smarter ones skip the assignment, it's "unfair" right? Because they didn't have to do as much work as the other students. But, if they do the assignment, that also seems unfair. Because they had to spent their time on something that gave them nothing in return, whereas the other students got to spend their time on something that taught them. They gained something (knowledge) from the assignment. The smarter kids lost something (time) from the assignment.

[EKS]

This brings up an important question.  Is the point of school to learn or to demonstrate compliance with rules?  If she knows the material, why should she have to do a bunch of busywork (which it is if it is not helping her learn the material--it can't if she already knows it)?

 

I bet the kid is gifted, bored out of her mind, and sees right through the farce that high school has become.

[Murphy101]

I can see both sides of this. But what is it ultimately teaching the student but that she doesn't have to follow the same rules and consequences as everyone else, and that she is somehow special or immune?

No.

 

What it teaches is that NONE of the student have to follow these stupid rules. Any student could do, or rather not do, the same thing. They just never question it or consider it or just don't care enough to be that rebellious about it.

 

What it teaches is what we all know already. There are few consequences in real life for refusing to participate in an artificial social structure that does not meet their life goals. Other than maybe being a happier person.

[goldberry]

You have that luxury as a homeschooling parent. In a school classroom, a teacher assigns something that may be of great value to some students and absolutely no value to other students. If the smarter ones skip the assignment, it's "unfair" right? Because they didn't have to do as much work as the other students. But, if they do the assignment, that also seems unfair. Because they had to spent their time on something that gave them nothing in return, whereas the other students got to spend their time on something that taught them. They gained something (knowledge) from the assignment. The smarter kids lost something (time) from the assignment.

 

Which is why this kid probably should have been homeschooled.  Pretty much anyone who is not in the exact middle gets shorted by public school.  The farther off you are from the norm (either direction) the less you will benefit.

[SKL]

I don't agree that it gives a message that anyone can pass without doing any work.  What it shows is that you can pass if you know the material you are supposed to know at the end of the year.  The point of passing is to go on to a higher level of work.  The point of flunking is to have more time to master the knowledge that was supposed to be learned during that year.

 

The lesson is that there are multiple ways to demonstrate your readiness for the next class.  You can show your knowledge by intellectual discussions, completing class work, or completing out-of-school projects that use the same skills.  What is wrong with a teacher acknowledging that?

 

Why would it ever be appropriate to waste a seat in a classroom for a child to re-take a class teaching information she already knows?  Is that a proper use of a school's budget?

[FaithManor]

This brings up an important question.  Is the point of school to learn or to demonstrate compliance with rules?  If she knows the material, why should she have to do a bunch of busywork (which it is if it is not helping her learn the material--it can't if she already knows it)?

 

I bet the kid is gifted, bored out of her mind, and sees right through the farce that high school has become.

I do believe that the current purpose of public education, particularly from the "brilliant" minds at the federal level, is conformity not learning.

 

When I was in school, I had some pretty old school teachers for K-6. They worked with everyone "where we were at" in terms of skill and knowledge which meant that we didn't do a whole lot of everyone doing the same thing at the same time. Getting bussed up to the consolidated middle school with "herd" mentality was one very rude awakening.

[Reefgazer]

Curious question (and not in a judg-y way, either, just curious):  Would you have done the work if it meant being retained a grade and/or not getting your diploma?

This was me in high school.

So I'm torn about this.

I despised school. Even in elementary. Really really hated school.

But I loved learning and always have. Despite doing very well in English on standardized tests, I rarely got above a .03% in English. Yep. That's right. .03. I actually had an English teacher screaming and crying at me in the hallway that she just couldn't compel me to give a single care for any assignment. She knew I knew the material. I had obtained all the books and resources used off the class syllabus the first day of class and had finished reading them all by the 2nd week of school. I remembered it and could converse about it. But nope. Not interested in the test or essays. *yawn* Grades have never been compelling to me. F? A? It's just a letter of the alphabet. *shrug*. I often did the same thing in history and science. I struggled in math, but I could do the work. My big problem in math was I never had enough time. It always took me triple the amount of time to work it and I was never given that time.

Despite missing over 30 days (iirc) of English my junior year, I passed. Despite that .03 in 7th grade and an F in gym class (gah. I loathed gym the most!) I passed that and all my other failing courses every year.

I was fairly nice, didn't hang out with the wrong crowd or get into trouble.

I just didn't give one toot about wasting my time on busy work proving in triplicate or more (home work, tests, projects, reports, quarter exams, standardized tests) that I knew what those people already knew I had learned. It was boring and insipid and I had other things I preferred doing. Like playing in the creek, hiking, reading, daydreaming... Pretty much anything.

Other than beating me, well including that actually, they (school and parents) couldn't compel me to want to be there or to do the work.

I'm confused by the parents insistence on the school parenting their child. I'm not sure what they should do, but I know it isn't a school problem.

I also think the notion that trade schools should be dumping grounds for the academicly weak or the lazy is ignorant and rather insulting to those who work in trades.

The young woman doesn't want to be there.

That's the problem.

I'm not sure how holding her back or expelling her or sending her to another school fixes that problem.

 

[SKL]

I also have a brother who was gifted and didn't do the work.  It was a combination of having no intrinsic motivation (he knew everything in the textbook already) and being very disorganized.  In addition, he was socially backward and hated hated hated being in the school population.  My parents tried everything short of criminal child abuse.  My brother barely squeaked by every year from 2nd to 11th grade (in 12th he was going by choice and taking higher-level classes he enjoyed).

 

10 years of torture to teach my brother ... what?  Guess what.  He is a computer techie guy who works all sorts of weird hours, at all sorts of locations, with an extreme focus on the things that interest him.  Not even remotely like anything he did in school.  NOBODY cares what grades he got in any school he ever attended.  All people care about is whether he knows how to solve their computer problems.  Imagine that.  Real live bites a lot less than school for some people.

[Tsuga]

And I too was somewhat of a slacker.  I did the work (except when I was openly protesting it), but my attendance and participation were awful.  Few teachers gave me a hard time.  They liked me.

 

I still suck at being prompt and participating in meetings, but I found my niche and managed to be a productive member of society anyway.

 

My issue is that she didn't even take the tests.

 

So the teacher's claims seem dubious to me.

 

I too missed a lot of homework and also missed class particularly in high school. But I aced the tests. There was proof that I was a slacker but mastered the material.

 

This case seems odd because the teacher has no proof that she's done anything but passed her through. And it is not hard at all to just take a few tests a quarter!

[Murphy101]

You have that luxury as a homeschooling parent. In a school classroom, a teacher assigns something that may be of great value to some students and absolutely no value to other students. If the smarter ones skip the assignment, it's "unfair" right? Because they didn't have to do as much work as the other students. But, if they do the assignment, that also seems unfair. Because they had to spent their time on something that gave them nothing in return, whereas the other students got to spend their time on something that taught them. They gained something (knowledge) from the assignment. The smarter kids lost something (time) from the assignment.

Some kids have had to work twice or more as hard to get the same or a lesser grade than another who the subject came easier to. This is life. Life is unfair. Get over it. It is not an excuse to quit or give up or not even show up.

 

I don't harbor that kind of talk in my house.

 

It doesn't matter how quickly/slowly your sibling finished it or how much he has done it or what he hasn't done.

What matters is what you are doing.

The only thing you need to know about your sibling is how he prefers to be cheered on and if they want your help.

If he rises, we rise with him.

If he does not, we left him up.

 

^Repeat until the natural sibling rivalry is dimishined. Or at least whines less loudly. :)

[Reefgazer]

It's interesting to me that you do not see the connection between meeting school attendance/academic goals and being successful in the workplace.  Yet surely you recognize (and it's been my experience in the working world, as well) that most people are not fired for "incompetence", but for "not being a good fit" (which encompasses things like being a team player, helping the company achieve their goals, meeting an employer's non-technical standards, etc...).  I think there probably is a close correlation between school attitude and employment success, although I am way to lazy to go research it. 

I don't agree with the premise that school is comparable to real life for anyone who isn't going to do a 9-to-5, on-site office job for her entire life.  For many bright people, that is less and less of a realistic expectation.

 

When I was 15, I applied for early graduation (for the following year).  Later that school year, I had a problem getting to school one day (it was a mile walk and I kept getting drenched by sudden downpours - for real - then I had to dry my jeans in the dryer and didn't get to school until noon).  This was a couple days after I had given what was considered a flippant remark when asked for my excuse for being a little late (I said "I guess I walked too slow" because I didn't want to fake an excuse).  So they were fed up with my horrible attendance record and attitude, and called me down to the office.  I was non-chalant about the 3-day in-school suspension and the threat of having a detention for every tardy for the rest of my life.  But then the principal told me he wasn't going to sign my application for early graduation if I didn't shape up.

 

I became the most prompt student you can imagine from that day, until the day the principal signed that paper.  And then I went back to my old ways.  I do not believe there was anything good about me being on time to homeroom every day, other than the fact that it ultimately got me out of high school all together a year earlier.  I hated being there.  I always felt like it was a waste of time, and that is a lot of time to waste.

 

Now maybe they will find a way to motivate this girl to show up and do what they demand.  But is that really such an accomplishment?

 

[Reefgazer]

How do they know she knows the material if she didn't complete the work and demonstrate that she knew it?  More importantly, in a large class where there is no personalized attention, how do you objectively separate the kids who know the material but don't demonstrate it from those who just don't know it?  I don't see in the article any explanation of how they determined she knew the material, except for class discussions.  But was the entire class discussion-based?  I bet not.

Well I think it's right to pass the girl.  She knows the material.  There is no point having her repeat the course.  English class isn't supposed to be reform school.

 

Mom wants her daughter to learn a lesson, I understand that, but IMO that isn't the school's primary job.  Since she knows her daughter has an issue, maybe she should put her in some sort of work program over the summer or something.  Or just let her daughter learn from real life like everyone else.

 

My mom had a teacher who didn't like her, and flunked her in 9th grade English because she missed exactly 21 days of school over the year.  She was a high achiever up to that point.  She ended up dropping out of school on her 16th birthday because it was ridiculous for her to be in school a year longer though she knew more than everyone else.  Holding a bright kid back IMO makes it more likely that she will drop out rather than continue on in a productive direction.

 

[SKL]

It's interesting to me that you do not see the connection between meeting school attendance/academic goals and being successful in the workplace.  Yet surely you recognize (and it's been my experience in the working world, as well) that most people are not fired for "incompetence", but for "not being a good fit" (which encompasses things like being a team player, helping the company achieve their goals, meeting an employer's non-technical standards.  I think there probably is a close correlation between school attitude and employment success. 

 

Right, but "a good fit" means different things in different workplaces.

 

Thanks to technology, the world is getting more and more accommodating of individual differences.  I think that is a positive change.  By demanding less of what the person isn't naturally inclined to do, the workplace stands to gain more of what each person can best contribute.

 

Some of my most productive hours are the hours after most people go to bed.  It has always been this way since I was a teen.  It's not going to change.  A workplace can either make use of my most productive time of the day, or fuss over the things that are hard for me.  Which makes the most business sense?

[Reefgazer]

I see your point here, but this is different from the girl in the article because your DH demonstrated objectively that he was capable of mastering the material (as evidenced by his 100%).  There was no demonstrable, objective evidence of this student's capability, though.  While I agree tests are not the only way to evaluate mastery of s subject, it seems papers and tests are the minimum standards that this girl needed to meet, and didn't.

I haven't read the thread but I got to this part in the article and I must say... I'm firmly on the teacher's side here.

 

 

That was my husband. He was very smart. They didn't have classes that would have challenged him in math or science. He refused to do homework because he was bored and knew the material inside and out. He'd get over 100% on the tests and a C in the class because of missed homework. He refused to jump through hoops to prove what the teacher already knew. That he knew the material. What is the goal here? That the child learn? Or that the child learn to obey? I'm not saying there isn't value in learning to go just with the system, do what you have to do, etc. But that's not what my husband learned. He learned that his teachers didn't care if he knew the material, that grades were meaningless and did not accurately reflect his ability, and that he thought the entire system was a joke. It killed his love of learning and preventing him from continuing his education after high school. He should have been earning scholarships and a graduate degree, but instead he was completely disillusioned.

 

He has a medal from a math competition. He won, out of the entire city, best at math for sixth grade. That same year, his math teacher failed him just to prove some kind of point. I know what she was trying to teach him, but that's not the lesson he learned. He's in his 30s and still bitter about it. I wish she had considered for one second whether it was an "academic benefit" to fail him. :(

 

[FaithManor]

My issue is that she didn't even take the tests.

 

So the teacher's claims seem dubious to me.

 

I too missed a lot of homework and also missed class particularly in high school. But I aced the tests. There was proof that I was a slacker but mastered the material.

 

This case seems odd because the teacher has no proof that she's done anything but passed her through. And it is not hard at all to just take a few tests a quarter!

This did seem odd to me too. I have a friend that had a student last year in algebra 2 that was terrible with written work and due to health of a parent very sporadic in attendance. But, the kid took it upon himself to watch you tube videos of algebra 2 lessons when at home with the parent which was A LOT. I am not even certain, given our current truancy officer's lousy attitude, how he managed this but my guess is that the principle and the teachers were rather compassionate about it and simply did not report.

 

For tests, my friend would actually take the time to drive to the student's home after school or use Skype and orally questioned the student. This kid was good a mental arithmetic and of course was allowed a calculator anyway. He would answer enough questions orally to allow my friend to pass him with a decent grade without violating his conscience because the student had been able to demonstrate learning.

 

But if the teacher in this story did not do something similar nor ran a heavily discussion oriented class, then I am not certain how he or she could make the claim unless the student did show up to take standardized tests and passed the claim on that alone which would be a pathetic plan. However, obviously in a short "sound bite" story like this there isn't going to be enough detail given for anyone to know what really happened.

 

Still, I see both sides of this and feel it is an all too common consequence of our PS system which is broke beyond recognition in so many parts of the country.

[Murphy101]

Curious question (and not in a judg-y way, either, just curious): Would you have done the work if it meant being retained a grade and/or not getting your diploma?

Nope. In fact, I always knew each year/class could be a class where the teacher decided come hell or high water they were going to try to make me do the work. I did repeat one English class and it made no difference at all, didn't do it the second time either. If they hadn't given my diploma, it wouldn't have mattered to me bc either way, I considered myself done and I wouldn't have gone back. I didn't get to attend prom, but the funny thing is I had already decided I didn't want to. I went to one my junior year and frankly wasn't impressed. So when the counselor told me in an "omg you won't get to attend prom!" I just looked at her like she was nuts to think any dance was that all important. I had a date if I wanted to go. Couple choices even. I was engaged and my future dh would have driven from college to take me, but I could have gone with some good friends too. I just didn't want to. Instead future dh and I met in his college town a couple hours away and went to dinner and the movies. Yep. I was one wild crazy teen. I went to dh's prom the year before and it was nice and fun, but really I never have understood the prom craze.

[Annie G]

I'm not convinced this is a case of a bored gifted kid. The mom says she has a diagnosis of severe oppositional defiance.   She also says the girl was missing more than 70% of the points for the quarter (9 of 19 assignments must mean they were not all worth the same amount) and that she doesn't see how the teacher can say the girl knows the material when she wasn't there and wasn't turning in any work.  Saying that the girl 'participated in several discussions' is not impressing me. 

 

In previous years she was in gifted English classes but misses as many as 50 days so they put her in this class to lighten her load. 

 

I wish the parents would just let her drop out of school.  Nobody is benefitting from her being 'in' school. 

 

Why bother to have final exams if they are only used to raise a student's grade? 

 

A longtime friend contacted me a year ago to tutor her son so he could graduate. He'd stopped doing any work in three classes...six weeks prior. And was failing all of them, of course.  He just didn't feel like doing the work and said he knew they wouldn't fail him. I declined the tutoring job.  He was right. They gave him C's so he could graduate and go off to college.     The kid knew they wouldn't fail him because he's never actually passed a math class in high school but he always got a passing grade on his report card.  

 

I don't think he was gifted at all, though I do know there are lots of gifted kids who get bored and do poorly in school. I usually see it manifested differently than this though.  

[Reefgazer]

I am a night owl too, and totally out of sync with the rest of the planet.  But I have to adjust and accommodate if I want to accomplish anything that requires another person's input (which is just about everything I do, except for evaluating my kids' work and planning our homeschool gig).  Even people who rely on technology have to learn to cooperate and accommodate to work with others, unless they have a strictly isolated/solo job (and realistically, those jobs are not common).  This girl will be on the margins of society and the economy if she doesn't learn to cooperate and accommodate, and yes, sometimes jump through hoops for the sake of jumping.  The odds are not with her for success.  I suppose the school could (should?) adjust their evaluation criteria, but then again, the workplace isn't going to adjust to this girl, she will need to adjust to it, or she'll be in the unemployment line.

Right, but "a good fit" means different things in different workplaces.

 

Thanks to technology, the world is getting more and more accommodating of individual differences.  I think that is a positive change.  By demanding less of what the person isn't naturally inclined to do, the workplace stands to gain more of what each person can best contribute.

 

Some of my most productive hours are the hours after most people go to bed.  It has always been this way since I was a teen.  It's not going to change.  A workplace can either make use of my most productive time of the day, or fuss over the things that are hard for me.  Which makes the most business sense?

 

[Carrie12345]

I wasn't able to get my son's teacher to give him low scores on 2 assignments, forget a whole year!  One social studies project was late, rushed, crummy, and inaccurate.  One book report was straight up made up (complete with "alternate ending" for the book @@) and the teacher still didn't give a rip.

 

Why bother going?

[Reefgazer]

Interesting and insightful; thanks for your response. 

 

I have no idea how you made your way in the world (and it's none of my business, so I really am not trying to pry here), but my guess is the malaise and unemployability of most of those who are on the economic margins of society is due in part to not being willing or able to jump through hoops or demonstrate competence.  It's not a dice I would want my kids to roll.

Nope. In fact, I always knew each year/class could be a class where the teacher decided come hell or high water they were going to try to make me do the work. I did repeat one English class and it made no difference at all, didn't do it the second time either. If they hadn't given my diploma, it wouldn't have mattered to me bc either way, I considered myself done and I wouldn't have gone back. I didn't get to attend prom, but the funny thing is I had already decided I didn't want to. I went to one my junior year and frankly wasn't impressed. So when the counselor told me in an "omg you won't get to attend prom!" I just looked at her like she was nuts to think any dance was that all important. I had a date if I wanted to go. Couple choices even. I was engaged and my future dh would have driven from college to take me, but I could have gone with some good friends too. I just didn't want to. Instead future dh and I met in his college town a couple hours away and went to dinner and the movies. Yep. I was one wild crazy teen. I went to dh's prom the year before and it was nice and fun, but really I never have understood the prom craze.

 

[Reefgazer]

This about sums up my opinion on the matter.  Everyone who has problems in school isn't gifted, and in the absence of any other evidence, likely is not gifted, since true giftedness is a tiny fraction of the population.

I'm not convinced this is a case of a bored gifted kid. The mom says she has a diagnosis of severe oppositional defiance.   She also says the girl was missing more than 70% of the points for the quarter (9 of 19 assignments must mean they were not all worth the same amount) and that she doesn't see how the teacher can say the girl knows the material when she wasn't there and wasn't turning in any work.  Saying that the girl 'participated in several discussions' is not impressing me. 

 

In previous years she was in gifted English classes but misses as many as 50 days so they put her in this class to lighten her load. 

 

I wish the parents would just let her drop out of school.  Nobody is benefitting from her being 'in' school. 

 

Why bother to have final exams if they are only used to raise a student's grade? 

 

A longtime friend contacted me a year ago to tutor her son so he could graduate. He'd stopped doing any work in three classes...six weeks prior. And was failing all of them, of course.  He just didn't feel like doing the work and said he knew they wouldn't fail him. I declined the tutoring job.  He was right. They gave him C's so he could graduate and go off to college.     The kid knew they wouldn't fail him because he's never actually passed a math class in high school but he always got a passing grade on his report card.  

 

I don't think he was gifted at all, though I do know there are lots of gifted kids who get bored and do poorly in school. I usually see it manifested differently than this though.  

 

[SKL]

How do they know she knows the material is she didn't complete the work and demonstrate that she knew it?  More importantly, how do you objectively separate the kids who know the material but don't demonstrate it from those who just don't know it?  I don't see in the article any explanation of how they determined she knew the material, except for class discussions.  But was the entire class discussion-based?  I bet not.

 

I don't know, but I'm giving the teacher the benefit of the doubt that she isn't lying about the girl knowing the material.  Obviously it's a whole different discussion if that is a lie.

 

I used to talk to the teachers after school.  I would ask questions that went beyond what was taught in the classroom.  My college prep English teacher would sometimes be stumped and say she had to go ask her husband, who was a college prof.  So she could honestly say she knew that I knew the material.  She used to give short quizzes on the classics we were reading, and I usually bombed them.  The reason was that she would ask stuff about details I didn't focus on.  Like, "what color dress did Betsy wear to the ball?"  However, I could discuss the meat of the stories, so it was obvious that I had read the books.  These are just examples, but I could see how a teacher could conclude from discussions that a girl knew the material well enough to move on to the next level.

 

I'm sure the teacher had to pass some kids who didn't really understand all of the material, but slogged through the work and got passing grades.  Those kids would probably struggle again the next year, but they couldn't be held back.  I could understand not wanting to flunk a kid who knows more, while passing kids whose hold on the information is weak.