Abuse Between Young Children

[goldberry]

The Duggar this is totally different, because I agree that at 14 he was old enough to know what he was doing was wrong.  But it made me think of something that happened to a friend.  When she was 5 and in kindergarten, there was a boy (also 5) who was always next to her at nap time.  He would reach over and touch her sexual areas.  She told him to stop it, but he kept doing it.  One time the teacher walked by and saw him doing it, and the teacher told him to stop it.  She also put him somewhere else at nap time. The boy never bothered my friend after that.  That was the end of the story.  

 

This really traumatized my friend.  She said she didn't really realize what had happened was "wrong" until a few years later (even though she knew at the time she didn't like him touching her).  When she realized it was wrong she felt really ashamed and vulnerable.  This carried onward into a vulnerability and general fear of safety around men.  

 

This was wrong of the boy of course.  But this was a 5 year old boy and a 5 year old girl.  I'm surprised the teacher didn't tell the parents about it, but would/should that have been reported to the police?  I just wonder about getting the police involved and what that would have accomplished.

 

Also, it is very clear that my friend perceived this as abuse and experienced trauma because of it, but on the part of the boy, it could have been just curiosity or experimentation and not anything really malicious.  That doesn't seem to make any difference to my friend though, and she views herself as a victim...sometimes I have a hard time understanding that.  Then I feel bad because I don't understand, and maybe I should understand that?  I don't discount her perception of what she experienced, but I would really like to understand this better. 

 

The behavior is wrong.  But I *think* it would make a difference knowing someone did that maliciously and should have known better, or someone of the same age and inexperience did something that was possibly just, truly, a mistake.  Am I wrong that would make a difference?  Because it doesn't make any difference to my friend and maybe I'm wrong to think that.

 

You guys are good at giving different perspectives, please don't be harsh to me, I really want to grow in understanding.  

 

ETA, I have NEVER said anything to my friend to minimize or discount anything she has experienced.  These are just thoughts in my head.

[Farrar]

That's horrible. To my mind though, the person who really victimized your friend was the teacher, who knew what had happened yet did nothing to support her or even inform anyone about it. How terrible. I suspect it would be dealt with differently today... at least, I hope. There are clearer guidelines to do so. I'm assuming this was at least a couple of decades ago when there may not have been.

 

I think the way we deal with minors and s*x abuse is all messed up. On the one hand, we keep expelling kindergarteners for hugging and putting people who may have themselves also been victims of abuse on the offender registry for life for things they did in their tween years. On the other hand, we still impose a lot of shame on victims and don't protect them adequately or always punish the perpetrators of really serious, long term abuse. I think we just don't know how to think and talk frankly about this stuff without so much baggage as a society. It makes it impossible to have consequences and responses that make any sense.

 

ETA: I don't mean to say that the boy shouldn't have had consequences for his behavior... Just that I agree with you that those consequences probably should have been investigating to make sure he was not a victim of abuse and being sure that he was educated clearly about his actions and about s*x in an age appropriate way. And that the teacher was the one charged with doing that and she didn't do it. Or support your friend. It's just... terrible.

[Guest]

I agree that I think the teacher is the one most culpable, as her parents should have been informed and notified of the situation, the solution, and the outcome of it so they could support her if she needed to talk about it down the road. The minimizing and hiding of it increased the perceived shame.

 

That's a tough situation.

[Anne in CA]

I would think that the boy had been s3#idealized in some way to think of doing that. The teacher should have been able to send him to mandatory counselling to find out what happened. I do think your friend is a victim, but I don't see as 5yo boy as an abuser.

[JustEm]

Whether it was malicious or mere experimentation on the boys part doesn't mean it was not abuse and she was not a victim. She doesn't need to change her feelings about that awful experience because he didn't know the extent of what he was doing or didn't mean to hurt her. I imagine she'd feel differently about it if the teacher had told her parents and she could have talked about it with someone instead of processing it on her own as a child.

[Chris in VA]

About 20ish years ago, my then-child's classmate showed s#xualized behavior when a person visited the class (not going into detail). Immediately, the teacher reported it to the parent and the head of the school. Turned out it strongly indicated the child had been abused. So even 20 years ago, people knew what to look for.

 

I don't think the abuse education of teachers was up to snuff back then, though. It was not nearly as it is today, where we have to go thru prevention and awareness programs.

 

I'm not sure I can totally fault the teacher for not knowing what to do, but yeah, she's at fault, perhaps thru ignorance.

 

 

[Harriet Vane]

This is abusive, but the real red flags in my mind are for the little boy. Persistent, inappropriate sexualized behavior at that age is a MAJOR red flag for abuse. In other words, the question I ask if who taught that boy that behavior, and is he being hurt? The teacher should have referred the child to the school social worker for a concerned interview.

[DesertBlossom]

I think it's difficult because different people react and respond in different ways. I would hope that now, as an adult, your friend could recognize that it was probably the other child who was being abused and that he was a victim in it too. Not to minimize her own feelings, but to help her see if wasn't a boy taking advantage of her, but a child acting out his own victimization.

 

My initial thought was that maybe kids need more guidance on how to respond to innappropriate touching. We've read "I said no" with my kids and talked about private parts ans getting an adult. And I hope to continue the conversation as they get older. I *hope* that gives my kids the courage and power to stand up for themselves if they find themselves in a similar situation. If your friend had known she could stand up and find her teacher and say, "this boy is touching me" then hopefully she wouldn't have had those feelings of helplessness.

[Ottakee]

A few rambling thoughts.

 

I agree that the teacher should have done much more.  The parents should have been told.

 

It is highly likely the boy was himself a victim of abuse or inappropriate exposure, etc.  At 5 and 5 there might be mutual exploration but if one said STOP then likely the other would just stop and go on to the next activity.  This little boy seemed to be repeating the behavior over and over and over again which shows it is likely more than just typical little kid exploration.  I also think (just my first thought so I might be wrong) that at 5, most boys are more interested in how things look---as in how boys and girls look different, I don't think it is as typical for him to be touching repeatedly through the clothes.

 

I think your friend has a right to feel she was a victim and have difficulty with the processing of this.  She was young and vulnerable and when she said no it didn't stop.  Sounds like she felt/feels helpless as the adult who saw this just moved the boy but never acknowledged what was going on or alerted her parents, other trusted adults, etc.

I could see these feelings coming back as she was dating and married.

[Bluegoat]

As far as the teachers response, I think that it's worthwhile to remember that she didn't know that this was an ongoing thing. Kids do that kind of stuff quite a lot - if both the kids involved are interested, possibly on an ongoing basis.  So her perspective on what happened is probably be entirely different than your friends'. 

 

I think it is really hard to know what was up in the little boys mind.  I would not characterize anything a five year old did as "abuse" - to my mind that requires a particular mindset that a child of that age is not capable of, it requires moral culpability.  It was a kind of action that is inappropriate, like a small child who masturbates or picks his nose in public - but none of these are malicious actions in any adult sense.

 

I think its interesting, and perhaps revealing, that her strong sense of shame about this came about after her acceptance of it as abusive and wrong behavior.  What is she had continued to frame the experience differently, or re-framed it now?  I wonder how that would affect her perception?  Sometimes that kind of identfication can make a big difference to our feelings.  Reframing in that way can be very difficult, but it isn't impossible.

 

[Tsuga]

The Duggar this is totally different, because I agree that at 14 he was old enough to know what he was doing was wrong.  But it made me think of something that happened to a friend.  When she was 5 and in kindergarten, there was a boy (also 5) who was always next to her at nap time.  He would reach over and touch her sexual areas.  She told him to stop it, but he kept doing it.  One time the teacher walked by and saw him doing it, and the teacher told him to stop it.  She also put him somewhere else at nap time. The boy never bothered my friend after that.  That was the end of the story.  

 

This really traumatized my friend.  She said she didn't really realize what had happened was "wrong" until a few years later (even though she knew at the time she didn't like him touching her).  When she realized it was wrong she felt really ashamed and vulnerable.  This carried onward into a vulnerability and general fear of safety around men.  

 

This was wrong of the boy of course.  But this was a 5 year old boy and a 5 year old girl.  I'm surprised the teacher didn't tell the parents about it, but would/should that have been reported to the police?  I just wonder about getting the police involved and what that would have accomplished.

 

Also, it is very clear that my friend perceived this as abuse and experienced trauma because of it, but on the part of the boy, it could have been just curiosity or experimentation and not anything really malicious.  That doesn't seem to make any difference to my friend though, and she views herself as a victim...sometimes I have a hard time understanding that.  Then I feel bad because I don't understand, and maybe I should understand that?  I don't discount her perception of what she experienced, but I would really like to understand this better. 

 

The behavior is wrong.  But I *think* it would make a difference knowing someone did that maliciously and should have known better, or someone of the same age and inexperience did something that was possibly just, truly, a mistake.  Am I wrong that would make a difference?  Because it doesn't make any difference to my friend and maybe I'm wrong to think that.

 

You guys are good at giving different perspectives, please don't be harsh to me, I really want to grow in understanding.  

 

ETA, I have NEVER said anything to my friend to minimize or discount anything she has experienced.  These are just thoughts in my head.

 

I personally do not believe that children can be held to the same moral standards for abuse as adults.

 

I think that children under 3, kids 3 -7, and then again kids 7-11, approximately, are still children. I think teenagers should be given more lenience and far more help when committing even serious crimes. They are developing self-control, learning about power, and learning about consequences at those ages. And yes, this does imply that I think 14-year-old male abusers should be treated differently than 28-year-old male abusers. I would have no problem locking up a 28-year-old pedophile for life in most cases I would imagine. I think a 14-year-old should have other treatment options. I would not necessarily categorize behavior of a child under 7, repeated once or twice, as abusive.

 

I also strongly object to using the criminal justice system for children under 18. I know that's not a magic age. I think there should be a special system that does not feed directly into the criminal justice system, a more mental-health oriented system, for children.

 

I do think the teacher made a mistake in the situation above and I think our society has gotten better understanding how to deal with situations like this. I don't believe she was necessarily culpable, particularly if there was no training or protocol and this was a long time ago.

 

I don't think that the amount of trauma suffered is necessarily proportional to the moral culpability of the other people involved, either. You can experience a lot of trauma if your parent is chronically ill or dies. You can experience a lot of trauma being bullied by a child who is abused themselves, even if you are both very young.

 

I think we have become too punitive towards children. I think sexual abuse is horrible and there need to be strong consequences, but for children those consequences should be healing and not retribution.

 

I also think that when we are talking about kids under seven, there is a certain level of cluelessness among many and if behavior stops when the child is explained why it's not a good idea, there should not follow an assumption that the child is a "pervert".

[Farrar]

As far as the teachers response, I think that it's worthwhile to remember that she didn't know that this was an ongoing thing. Kids do that kind of stuff quite a lot - if both the kids involved are interested, possibly on an ongoing basis.  So her perspective on what happened is probably be entirely different than your friends'. 

 

I think it is really hard to know what was up in the little boys mind.  I would not characterize anything a five year old did as "abuse" - to my mind that requires a particular mindset that a child of that age is not capable of, it requires moral culpability.  It was a kind of action that is inappropriate, like a small child who masturbates or picks his nose in public - but none of these are malicious actions in any adult sense.

 

I think its interesting, and perhaps revealing, that her strong sense of shame about this came about after her acceptance of it as abusive and wrong behavior.  What is she had continued to frame the experience differently, or re-framed it now?  I wonder how that would affect her perception?  Sometimes that kind of identfication can make a big difference to our feelings.  Reframing in that way can be very difficult, but it isn't impossible.

 

Hm. I wonder about that. I think abuse can happen even when an abuser doesn't know they're doing it. I think of it a bit like racism - just because you don't realize you're being racist, doesn't make a thing not racist. And just because you don't realize you're abusing someone, doesn't mean it's not abuse.

 

The reframing thing is interesting to me too. This is sort of like the forgiveness thing - helpful to some, hurtful to others. Of course, it's easy for me, not having gone through what she did, to say, hey, think of it another way. But it's her experience that she gets to define.

[Bluegoat]

Hm. I wonder about that. I think abuse can happen even when an abuser doesn't know they're doing it. I think of it a bit like racism - just because you don't realize you're being racist, doesn't make a thing not racist. And just because you don't realize you're abusing someone, doesn't mean it's not abuse.

 

The reframing thing is interesting to me too. This is sort of like the forgiveness thing - helpful to some, hurtful to others. Of course, it's easy for me, not having gone through what she did, to say, hey, think of it another way. But it's her experience that she gets to define.

 

I also think an abuser may not realize what they are doing, but not a five year old.  Even if a five year old is acting with malicious feeling, tat is not at all the same as an adult doing so - there simply is no concept of the other person and a moral imperative that is strong enough to make it an abusive action.  By the same token, I would say a five year old is not capable of murder, even though someone killed by a five-year old is quite dead.

 

I generally agree that people are allowed to define their own experience, though that seems to raise some sticky questions.  We often seem quite happy to tell people they were raped even if they don't think so - we feel we need to redefine that experience for their own good, even if they seem to have integrated the experience as they have defined it.  And we tend to be happy to define people as abusers even if that is not their experience of the situation.  That perception of experience is never totally individualistic, so the question becomes - is she really defining her experience here, or has it been defined for her?  And either way, was it a healthy definition?  People who come from all kinds of abusive situations often perceive and frame experiences in their past in a negative way that continues to affect them and cause problems for them, and reframing them is one way to turn that around - but it can involve giving something up and be resisted for that reason - that isn't necessarily healthy either though. 

 

In this case, an incident like that between five year olds is really not obviously about some kind of overt victimization, and certainly isn't unusual or shameful, and it based on the OPsounds like it was only later when it was presented in that way that it became so traumatic.  So I would be inclined to think very seriously about redefining the experience or at least trying to look at it through new eyes - say for example rather than thinking about someone who at the time seemed a peer, trying to think clearly about what a five year old is really like from an adult perspective.

[katilac]

It's quite possible that the teacher did tell her parents, and did refer the boy for counseling. If her parents felt that she was being protected from him, and that she didn't appear to be upset by it, they may have decided to leave things be and not discuss it with her. Not an ideal response but definitely a common one. 

[Katy]

It's pretty common for children that have been abused to abuse other children.  They might be innocent as to intention, but it doesn't mean it's not abuse.

 

I know I was briefly in a daycare as a child (maybe a year?) and a girl there had been abused.  She showed sexualized behavior several times, both alone and to other children.  The workers tried to keep an eye on her, but at some point she did something with a boy when the teachers were focused on another situation, and it was in front of a bunch of us.  All the parents got letters about the situation, as well as what to watch for if we'd been exposed to something.  That was 30 years ago.

 

I'm sorry for what happened to your friend.

 

I have a friend that was abused as a child and her church blamed her and this entire event has been really triggering for her.

[Pegs]

I only categorise behaviours as abusive if one person has power over another. In the case of your friend, OP, it's unlikely that the boy had any power over her, at age five. It's unfortunate that by the time she did have the opportunity to process the events, they were in the context of her looking around and finding that men DO have power over women.

 

The kindergarten staff charged with your friend's care failed her by not providing an appropriate level of supervision at naptimes, and it's likely that their training did not include adequate information on identifying children at risk. With the kind of training I went through a few years ago (before I began working in childcare), the incident - even if staff had only witnessed it once - would have been referred to the director/principal, who would consider a DoCS report, and all staff would be alerted to watch for any other inappropriate behavior from the boy. They did the right thing by separating the children, but they ultimately failed both of them. :(

[Joanne]

I think it's important to note and emphasize that the teacher had no idea it was ongoing. Given what she witnessed, she reacted appropriately and in the best interest of both children.

 

I feel for both 5 year olds - they were (likely) both victims. And both untreated.

[Tsuga]

Hm. I wonder about that. I think abuse can happen even when an abuser doesn't know they're doing it. I think of it a bit like racism - just because you don't realize you're being racist, doesn't make a thing not racist. And just because you don't realize you're abusing someone, doesn't mean it's not abuse.

 

 

I think that ignorance is no excuse for adults. I think that we can expect children to have a certain level of ignorance.

 

I also think that abuse is necessarily intentional. It's using power wrongly. If you're an adult and you don't realize you're taking advantage, then it's your fault you don't know, and refusing to see that is just as bad as doing it on purpose.

 

However for a child, we cannot say that not knowing is just as bad as knowing and doing it. They can't know. Even a 14-year-old boy may know it's wrong, but in a sheltered or abusive environment, he may not know how wrong, or how to stop. He may have an irrational idea of what will happen if he reports himself (and given our society's treatment of young males, he might be right that the consequences could be life-threatening, including prison).

 

I think that lots of things children do, have different consequences precisely because they are ignorant of the consequences of their actions and the significance of their actions. Two year olds don't get hitting. Repeated biting in an 8 year old is serious. In a two year old, it's not medically actionable. In a 20-year-old, you're under the supervision of a mental health professional or the criminal justice system or both. Even if all those people know that biting is wrong, or don't, there are different expectations of knowledge and self-control for each of them.

[SKL]

I don't know how the friend can say what the teacher did and didn't do.  In all likelihood the little girl would not have been informed of any follow-up the teacher may have done regarding the little boy.  It is even possible the teacher mentioned it to the girls' parents and they decided not to make a big deal about it in front of her.

 

I agree that the behavior, especially if repeated, is a red flag for possible abuse of the boy.

 

I have to say I do not understand the woman carrying the feeling of being "victimized" into adulthood.  At some point she should understand that a 5yo cannot have the kind of culpability that creates a sex abuse victim.  Things like that happened to me, and while I did not like them, I shook them off as foolishness (or possibly sickness) on the part of the boy, which did not actually hurt me.

 

If my kid came home from KG and said some boy touched her privates through her clothes, I probably would have said "tell him no and tell the teacher" and moved on.  If it happened again, I would have contacted the teacher and done whatever else needed to be done to stop it, but I don't think I would have done more - I can't see myself sending my kids to counseling over being touched by a fellow KG student.  I would think that would blow up the incident in my kid's mind and make it more traumatic, or possibly make my own kid more curious about sex than she should be at that age.

 

But maybe if a woman is still upset about what happened in KG, she needs counseling now.  I honestly don't think her brain is processing normally (given the stated facts), but that itself would be a good reason to go for counseling.

[MotherGoose]

As a former social worker, I would say red flag for abuse of the boy. It's normal to "play doctor" or "show me yours and I'll show you mine" but, without knowing details, I would say the boy had experienced something he shouldn't have. Teacher should have reported to authorities. However, assuming this was 30 years ago, she might have done what was normal for teachers, especially if your friend didn't tell her it had happened before. I would say your friend ought to get some therapy to work through her concerns. Your friend is certainly not to blame for anything, including not letting the teacher know that it had happened before ( assuming she didn't).

[MotherGoose]

And I agree with SKL, it's not necessarily something that would have prompted a need for therapy back then or in every case, but NOW she needs it. I wouldn't want to push a child into therapy who wasn't bothered by the incident--tell him no and that it's not okay to do that and move on might be sufficient for many children.

[goldberry]

Thank you for all the responses.  I agree with the comments about the boy, that likely he was not malicious and should have received some intervention himself.  And yes, from the teacher's viewpoint it was not ongoing, so she probably did what she thought was best with limited information.  I am more interested in how my friend in processing this, and understanding.  I personally tend to think more like SKL, that I (or maybe even most kids) would just shake it off as foolishness or otherwise.

 

But I am trying to see it from my friend's view...  If an older boy or man did this, no one else would have any problem seeing it as abusive because of the power differential.  But for my friend *for some reason* she felt she had the power to say stop, but not the power to *make him stop*.  So just because I don't see it that way, I can see why it led her to feel vulnerable and it was abusive to her.  

 

Also, she has a memory of it feeling somewhat pleasurable, which then led to guilt and shame later.  That is difficult enough for an adult to process from a sexual assault or abuse, I can't imagine a child trying to process it.  She had thoughts of "I told him no, but maybe I didn't get the teacher because I sort of liked it, and that makes me ashamed.."  

 

Thinking on this more and reading replies, I think that I can understand this better by isolating her perspective of the experience, from whatever I believe about the boy or his perspective.  From her perspective, whether there was a power differential or not, *she felt one* and felt not in control of that situation...   I hesitate to label that as wrong or unhealthy.  It sort of just *is*.  FYI, she is seeking some counseling about it.

[Ravin]

Thank you for all the responses. I agree with the comments about the boy, that likely he was not malicious and should have received some intervention himself. And yes, from the teacher's viewpoint it was not ongoing, so she probably did what she thought was best with limited information. I am more interested in how my friend in processing this, and understanding. I personally tend to think more like SKL, that I (or maybe even most kids) would just shake it off as foolishness or otherwise.

 

But I am trying to see it from my friend's view... If an older boy or man did this, no one else would have any problem seeing it as abusive because of the power differential. But for my friend *for some reason* she felt she had the power to say stop, but not the power to *make him stop*. So just because I don't see it that way, I can see why it led her to feel vulnerable and it was abusive to her.

 

Also, she has a memory of it feeling somewhat pleasurable, which then led to guilt and shame later. That is difficult enough for an adult to process from a sexual assault or abuse, I can't imagine a child trying to process it. She had thoughts of "I told him no, but maybe I didn't get the teacher because I sort of liked it, and that makes me ashamed.."

 

Thinking on this more and reading replies, I think that I can understand this better by isolating her perspective of the experience, from whatever I believe about the boy or his perspective. From her perspective, whether there was a power differential or not, *she felt one* and felt not in control of that situation... I hesitate to label that as wrong or unhealthy. It sort of just *is*. FYI, she is seeking some counseling about it.

This is where the sex negative way children are taught to be aware and report another's inappropriate conduct towards them can mess things up. If the boy had patted her on the head in a way that was unwelcome and annoying to her, rather than touch her crotch area, it's unlikely she'd have been so traumatized, because it was the thoughts and associations that came to her as she got older that were different.

 

Children should be taught that those parts we call "privates" can feel good to touch, and that it's okay to have those feelings and touch themselves in private. Teaching them that they have the right to not be touched by others is not something I've ever limited to certain body parts. Things like not hitting, not hugging someone who doesn't want a hug, and not having to hug someone if you don't want to are part of the same lesson. It's about control over one's physical interactions with others and consent, not about sex.

 

 

Treating sex like it's a bad thing of itself, or a grown-up thing children aren't supposed to know anything about or understand, doesn't protect children from being abused, and can make them feel bad about their own feelings as they grow and develop.

[MotherGoose]

Her reaction was totally normal. Therapy should help her get through that. And victims, because she clearly was a victim (victimized by another victim with no malicious intent) often feel guilty for things that weren't their fault. She was 5. 5 year olds don't have much power over anything. She did all she could do At the time. Therapy.

[goldberry]

Her reaction was totally normal. Therapy should help her get through that. And victims, because she clearly was a victim (victimized by another victim with no malicious intent) often feel guilty for things that weren't their fault. She was 5. 5 year olds don't have much power over anything. She did all she could do At the time. Therapy.

 

YES.  5 years olds are still so easily confused about things.  But it wasn't too much older that she realized, "I could've gone to the teacher, but why didn't I?"  Well...because you were 5!  You just didn't get it at the time.

 

How many times do we see those shows where parents are SO CERTAIN their little kid wouldn't play with a gun, or go off with a strangers, and then 10 minutes later they go and do the exact thing.  We protect little kids because they really *can't* protect themselves.

[SparklyUnicorn]

YES.  5 years olds are still so easily confused about things.  But it wasn't too much older that she realized, "I could've gone to the teacher, but why didn't I?"  Well...because you were 5!  You just didn't get it at the time.

 

How many times do we see those shows where parents are SO CERTAIN their little kid wouldn't play with a gun, or go off with a strangers, and then 10 minutes later they go and do the exact thing.  We protect little kids because they really *can't* protect themselves.

 

I think back about some stuff various adults did in my life and just shake my head.  I wish I had known better to say something.  But I didn't.  We are taught to trust adults and listen to their commands.