Ethical dilemma: would you donate to a church.......

[Halcyon]

I have been attending a church i really love for about a year. my kids and I love the service, the pastor and the energy and message. Plus, it's right near my house which is a plus, since we had been travelling 45 minutes each way to our old church.

 

My dilemma is this:. I am adamantly pro-gay marriage. I donate money to Equality Florida on a regular basis, write letters to congresspeople and cheered when gay marriage was legalized in Florida and elsewhere. I just found out a few disturbing things about the church, however. 

 

1) my friend, who is gay, is a member of the church (they know she is gay and support her seemingly) went through the training program to work in the kids' program. At the very end, when the people who run the kids' program learned that she is gay (I guess there's a questionnaire or something?) they said she could not work in that area. The lead pastor took her out for lunch, and explained that "unwed couples who live together" also couldn't work in the kids area (I guess that was supposed to be some sort of consolation?)

 

2) someone who works with my husband also worked for a period of time for the church, in a paid position. She told my husband that they require HIV testing for all employees. That seems...odd. What do they do with the information? What if you are positive? No idea.

 

Anyway, my gay friend continues to attend the church, and it almost seems I have more of a problem with the way they treated her than she does!

 

1) Would you tithe to this church?

2) Would you attend this church even though you have differences with them? On the latter question, I have resolved that I can attend the church even if I have differences of opinion with them, and those differences aren't shoved down my throat every Sunday (they aren't. In fact, I wouldn't have known of any of this without my friend's experience)

 

It's really the tithing I am grappling with. I donate to many other worthy causes, and right now, I am thinking that is my "substitute". I sponsor a child with Compassion Interantional , for example, and am thinking of sponsoring another.

 

Thoughts appreciated.

[Starr]

I would think if you attend you would be able to give.  It doesn't make much sense to say my family is attending but I won't financially contribute to making it viable. Giving is to God and all  but it costs to run your church the way it's being staffed, the building etc. If your convictions are such that you can't contribute is that the place for you? 

[Aiden]

I agree with Starr. I've always understood that the tithe is meant to go to the local church that the believer attends, and gifts to other ministries are optional offerings separate from the tithe--or at the very least, if you give part of your tithe to other entities, you give the majority of it to the church you attend in order to help with the expenses of the services and ministries the church provides. The worker deserves his wages, and in this case, the church is the worker. If you don't want to support the church financially, you really should find a different church.

[Starr]

However how many people actually tithe is a whole other thread. :)

[forty-two]

I donate to my church because I think they are doing something worthwhile, that I'd like them to be able to keep doing. They aren't perfect, I'm not happy with everything, but on balance I think they are doing enough good that it's better for them to be doing what they are doing than not. For me, a church whose mission and impact was such that I could not in good conscience help them keep it going (financially or by volunteering) - I thought that on balance it would be better if they shut their doors than remained open - well, why would I want to subject *me* and *my* family to such a church? Otoh, if they do enough good that I'm comfortable attending and being shaped by them, well, why do I want to deny them the resources to keep doing that?

[Aiden]

True. I was responding based on the assumption that the OP wouldn't be asking this question if she didn't believe that she should tithe and if she isn't in the habit of tithing. I doubt this question would even occur to someone who didn't currently support the church financially, unless she was in an early phase of attending the church and was withholding tithes pending a judgment of whether or not she would continue attending.

[OneStepAtATime]

I understand what you are saying. We were in a similar situation for different specific reasons recently.

 

Here is my perspective. If I attend a church, use its facilities, rely on its staff, reap the benefits of being there, i should be willing to contribute to its continued existence through my financial and spiritual support. If the church supports things I do not then I need to decide if I can remain in that church or if I should leave. If I choose to stay I should continue to provide my support.

 

Here are questions I asked myself:

 

1. Are the differences profound enough that I feel uncomfortable attending?

2. Are the leaders and/or followers supporting a belief/idea/concept/practice that I strongly disagree with?

3. If they are and I stay can I work from the inside to make a change and am I willing to attempt such a thing?

 

Bottom line for me is if I am attending a church and reaping the benefits I should support the church I am attending. If I cannot in good conscience do so then I should leave or become an even stronger member and try to move the church in a different direction.

 

Good luck. I know this can be a very painful and challenging position to be in.

[8circles]

I agree with your so-far conclusion that you can continue to attend but choose to tithe elsewhere. I don't see a problem with that.

 

Do you intend to speak to anyone about your concerns? Because it seems like those are issues which would continue to grate & it might be worth exploring what & why the policy is there. Idk.

 

I'm glad you found a place that's this good of a fit.:)

[Alessandra]

If the church is suspicious of gays or cohabiting singles, does that mean that it is too trusting of married heterosexuals? A lot of molesters fall into that last group. Personally, I would want a church that had procedures in place, such as two unrelated adults present, etc, rather than assuming that certain groups are unqualified. Besides the ethical questions that approach raises, it is shows a rigid kind of thinking that is disturbing.

 

What a shame that this is happening the conveniently located church your family enjoys! In your place, I might continue to attend, but not get too involved, be more of an audience than a participant. With luck, the church may end up changing its stance. I have been in similar situations. Sometimes I wish I could just put together the music from one church, the architecture from another, liturgy, congregation, and so on to make the perfect church... And put it in walking distance from my house, lol.

[AimeeM]

I'm Catholic, so I think you know my answer to this, and I'm assuming you mean "would I tithe to a church which didn't share the same fundamental views and opinions I do" and that's a tricky question. I suppose it would depend on whether or not the ideal/view not shared was a make it or break it for me... although, if it was, I wouldn't be attending that church. 

[LucyStoner]

No, I would not give them money. If I didn't feel I could in good conscious give them my money though I wouldn't be able to attend. BTDT, I'm sorry you are in that situation.

[Alte Veste Academy]

1) Would you tithe to this church?

 

2) Would you attend this church even though you have differences with them? On the latter question, I have resolved that I can attend the church even if I have differences of opinion with them, and those differences aren't shoved down my throat every Sunday (they aren't. In fact, I wouldn't have known of any of this without my friend's experience)

If I continued to go, I would tithe.

 

I would not continue to go, however, without addressing the issue (and inquiring about a range of other topics important to me). The fact that this seems to be a hidden truth about the church makes it much worse for me, not better. I would seek clarification of the church's stance and only attend if the truth and policies were acceptable to me.

 

What I bolded above is what bothered me the most in the early years of marriage when DH wanted to find a church. (He was raised Baptist, and I am agnostic but was open to going.) We tried many and liked a few. After a while though, invariably, the unspoken values would reveal themselves. The silently understood stuff that was unacceptable to me. And no one would talk about it openly, so it just seeped out after you had been there a while...and kept seeping out the longer you stayed. I thought that was craaaaazy in a place that was supposed to be in the business of soul care. I want frank honesty about values. If I were ever to try again, I would first visit to see if I liked the vibe, then schedule a no-holds barred meeting to see what the real deal was. And even more so now because these visits would include not just DH and me but also my children, who would more likely be swayed and influenced (however subtly) by the practice of values we don't share.

[73349]

I would not be able to contribute if I didn't believe in what my money would support (such as discriminatory programs). Church is where I go to be inspired to live my deepest values and to have true integrity.

 

I would also probably be looking at other options for regular attendance, because over time, the hidden messages do matter as much as the sermon. It looks like your kids are of an age where they may soon notice and object to hypocrisy. I'd be concerned that they may generalize and ascribe these issues to the whole faith instead of the leadership of this one congregation.

 

Sorry you are having to weigh these things in what is otherwise a meaningful community for you.

[MotherOfBoys]

Our church has similar views about working with the children but it's not because of molesting children, it's passing on doctrine that the church doesn't agree with. They just want to feel comfortable with knowing the teachers are like minded.

 

If you partake in their services then you should tithe. I don't like how my church gives money to the able bodied poor but I think of the snacks, missionaries, and utilities that I DO use.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Our church has similar views about working with the children but it's not because of molesting children, it's passing on doctrine that the church doesn't agree with. They just want to feel comfortable with knowing the teachers are like minded.

I think this is likely, and (as someone who lived with DH for three years before we were married) I would personally be more OK with restricting unwed couples from teaching in the children's church than I would be with restricting gay members from doing so. Choice and all that.

 

I wonder about homophobia because of the restriction of gay members from teaching paired with the HIV test. Is there also a hepatitis test? What other personal/medical info do they feel they have a right to?

[Alte Veste Academy]

...the hidden messages do matter as much as the sermon.

I agree. For me, I would say they matter even more. Like I say to my kids, anyone can put on a show, but how does that person truly live? And what is in his heart?

[texasmama]

There are obviously many acceptable ways to address this situation.  Everyone has a different tipping point with her investment of time, membership, and money.  For me, if I was a member of a church which actively discriminated against people, and I believed it to be wrong, I would need to address this with a member of the pastoral staff.  It doesn't really matter that your friend was not bothered.  She has her own tipping point.  Has a tipping point been reached for you?

 

I've never attended or been a member of a church that I could fully support 100% of the doctrine.  However, I have to prioritize what is most important to me.  I have heard the teaching that if you attend and benefit from a local church that you should also support that church financially.  I think this is fair and correct teaching.  If a stance or policy that a church takes bothered me so much that I could not in good conscience support the church financially, that would not be the church for me and I would move on to another one, however far I had to drive.

 

You are not wrong, whatever you choose.  This is a personal decision.  I also see nothing wrong in giving partial tithe to the church for operating expenses and also to supporting children in Compassion International with the rest of the tithe.  But I am not a purist.  :)

[Momto4inSoCal]

I would tithe. You are utilizing the facility and you must like the messages if you are still attending. Do you feel the church staff should not get paid for their services? I disagree with a lot of companies and if its to a certain point I will boycott (ie I buy organic to avoid gmo's) but if I want to use a product even if I disagree with the company I still have to pay for that product.

[8circles]

I think there are different ideas about what "tithe" means. It sounds like some define it as paying for using the "service" that the church provides or membership dues.

 

To me,in simplest terms, a tithe is an offering given to God, to do his work.

[Starr]

The other side is that I would be happy to attend church with you and not worry which of us were giving how much.  :grouphug:

[Scarlett]

I have been attending a church i really love for about a year. my kids and I love the service, the pastor and the energy and message. Plus, it's right near my house which is a plus, since we had been travelling 45 minutes each way to our old church.

 

My dilemma is this:. I am adamantly pro-gay marriage. I donate money to Equality Florida on a regular basis, write letters to congresspeople and cheered when gay marriage was legalized in Florida and elsewhere. I just found out a few disturbing things about the church, however. 

 

1) my friend, who is gay, is a member of the church (they know she is gay and support her seemingly) went through the training program to work in the kids' program. At the very end, when the people who run the kids' program learned that she is gay (I guess there's a questionnaire or something?) they said she could not work in that area. The lead pastor took her out for lunch, and explained that "unwed couples who live together" also couldn't work in the kids area (I guess that was supposed to be some sort of consolation?)

 

2) someone who works with my husband also worked for a period of time for the church, in a paid position. She told my husband that they require HIV testing for all employees. That seems...odd. What do they do with the information? What if you are positive? No idea.

 

Anyway, my gay friend continues to attend the church, and it almost seems I have more of a problem with the way they treated her than she does!

 

1) Would you tithe to this church?

2) Would you attend this church even though you have differences with them? On the latter question, I have resolved that I can attend the church even if I have differences of opinion with them, and those differences aren't shoved down my throat every Sunday (they aren't. In fact, I wouldn't have known of any of this without my friend's experience)

 

It's really the tithing I am grappling with. I donate to many other worthy causes, and right now, I am thinking that is my "substitute". I sponsor a child with Compassion Interantional , for example, and am thinking of sponsoring another.

 

Thoughts appreciated.

 

 

I would not attend or support in anyway an institution that had such fundamental differences in belief.  

[Bluegoat]

I have been attending a church i really love for about a year. my kids and I love the service, the pastor and the energy and message. Plus, it's right near my house which is a plus, since we had been travelling 45 minutes each way to our old church.

 

My dilemma is this:. I am adamantly pro-gay marriage. I donate money to Equality Florida on a regular basis, write letters to congresspeople and cheered when gay marriage was legalized in Florida and elsewhere. I just found out a few disturbing things about the church, however. 

 

1) my friend, who is gay, is a member of the church (they know she is gay and support her seemingly) went through the training program to work in the kids' program. At the very end, when the people who run the kids' program learned that she is gay (I guess there's a questionnaire or something?) they said she could not work in that area. The lead pastor took her out for lunch, and explained that "unwed couples who live together" also couldn't work in the kids area (I guess that was supposed to be some sort of consolation?)

 

2) someone who works with my husband also worked for a period of time for the church, in a paid position. She told my husband that they require HIV testing for all employees. That seems...odd. What do they do with the information? What if you are positive? No idea.

 

Anyway, my gay friend continues to attend the church, and it almost seems I have more of a problem with the way they treated her than she does!

 

1) Would you tithe to this church?

2) Would you attend this church even though you have differences with them? On the latter question, I have resolved that I can attend the church even if I have differences of opinion with them, and those differences aren't shoved down my throat every Sunday (they aren't. In fact, I wouldn't have known of any of this without my friend's experience)

 

It's really the tithing I am grappling with. I donate to many other worthy causes, and right now, I am thinking that is my "substitute". I sponsor a child with Compassion Interantional , for example, and am thinking of sponsoring another.

 

Thoughts appreciated.

 

If I attended, I would give at some level - I think otherwise it would be making use of something without contributing.

 

As far as attending at all, I think many people attend where they are not in full agreement. A lot may depend on the way in which it is important to you and why they believe as they do.

 

As far as the first two items - the HIV thing seems odd.  It strikes me as something that could have been an older practice, perhaps something from when people were very worried about members of the public being exposed to HIV.  I would try and find out if it was still going on at all and ask why if it is.

 

It sounds to me with the working with children issue it is not a matter of thinking gay people are pervs who are a risk, it sounds like they are not willing to put people who are openly living in a way that is clearly out of line with what they teach in charge of children's education. So - depending on the gay woman's situation, it might be very similar to the unmarried couple living together in that sense. I think that is fairly common, and it makes some sense, though I think it is odd that they would not do that but would put someone new who doesn't know much about theology etc in charge of it.  But that perhaps is somewhat reflective of the lack of value placed on teaching correct doctrine in many churches. 

 

[KrissiK]

For me personally, in general terms, I would only attend a church that I agree with fundamentally. Sure there might be some peripheral things that we don't see eye-to-eye on, but if I'm going to attend a church, we need to agree on core truths. And then, if I'm attending a church, I feel it is important to give financially to the ministry of that church. If I am receiving benefits from that church, even if it's just a comfortable temperature during services, church bulletins, etc. then I should help contribute. I know it's not glamorous thinking that my tithe is going for the electric bills and the water bills and janitorial, etc. but someone has to pay for it, as well, as the other ministries of the church.

[kirstenhill]

I would personally give/tithe if I was attending.  But it's my conviction that the whole purpose of the principle of tithing is to support the local church.  Maybe it's an opportunity for you to investigate or revisit your convictions about what the Bible says about tithing? I know not everyone comes to that same conclusion upon investigating those verses.

 

If it keeps bothering you and you want to continue being involved, I would consider seeking out the pastors or ministry leaders to ask questions for yourself.  If I were questioning a particular church policy, I would want to hear it directly from those responsible why that policy is in place. Is it because of the beliefs of the pastors? Are there some policies that are dictated by their liability insurance or by an outside organization/denomination the church is a part of?  There are things I have been annoyed with over the years either being involved with various organizations, and sometimes it turns out that those in leadership are equally bothered by it but they feel like their hands are tied by outside obligations.

 

 

[RootAnn]

Many of the other posters have brought up what my thought was -- and that is, if you don't believe in the core practices of this church, why attend? If you attend, you should give something for what you receive, even if it isn't a true "tithe."

 

However, I can see what a Pandora's Box this is. Your kids & you like the church, service, and pastor. If you decide you need to look into this behavior/belief system that you saw come out because of your friend's experience, you might end up deciding you can't keep going. If you don't look into it further, it might end up poisoning your experience anyway just through all the thoughts swirling around in your head.

 

If it were me, I'd end up letting it bug me for a couple of months while I talked things through with my spouse & friends. It would take me this long to really be able to wrestle with the fact that the next step might mean I'd lose this church I really liked. Then, I'd take the pastor out to lunch (okay, I'd invite him over for dinner with the family) and ask him about the church's policies & how they seem to reflect an anti-gay agenda. And see if I could continue to attend. If I could continue to attend after learning the answers, I could give.

[abacus2]

I am wondering how you feel about the church's stance on unmarried, cohabiting people generally. Do your friend and partner consider themselves married, even if your state doesn't sanction it? What, if any, guidelines should be in place regarding moral sexual behavior?

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

My thought is that our giving should support the local church.  When I become a member of a church, my attendance, volunteer hours and offerings are all part of my support for that church.  There have been minor issues about a church before where I did not agree.  I am always someone who seeks answers though and brings it to the leadership if I have an issue.  Perhaps that is the missing step here.  You are operating on second hand knowledge and not getting the leadership's full explanation to fully understand the issue.  Some disagreements are not consequential and others are.

 

If there is an issue that I feel that strongly about, I could not attend the church, but attending the church while withholding financial support means that you are not fully supporting this church and taking ownership in their vision, mission and values.  Perhaps, you should find another church if you cannot support it, but doing one and not the other, imo, is not really a position I would want to be in.  For example, we visited a church that looked great until I discovered women were not allowed in leadership.  We did not stay as I could not support that position.  I think you need to fully understand the church's reasoning on their position first.