s/o kids "butting in" on adult conversations

[TammyS]

Yeah and why not?  I can't think of pretty much anything I wouldn't talk about in front of my kids.  Why shouldn't they be aware of what mammograms are?  What's the big deal. It's a common medical test/procedure.  I might not want to discuss my sex life with my kids, but something mundane like a medical test?  Sure, why not?:

 

Because maybe I'm unhappy with the results and am trying to work through the issue in my own mind, before deciding when/how/if to share that information with my kids? Because some people are more private about medical/body issues than others (there are reasons that medical records are protected by law)? 

 

A year ago, I found a lump in my lower abdomen and went to see a gyn about it.  Turns out I have a fibroid the size of a Volvo.  I didn't tell my teen son that I was going to get tests, nor have I since.  It's just not something I care to share with him, though I have shared it with a couple of friends, and now here.

 

I'm not saying that it's immoral to share these things if someone cares to, but not everyone cares to be open about their medical/bodily issues, particularly with kids, and double that for other people's kids.

[TammyS]

I have to admit...I find it irritating when my (or any) kids interrupt my conversation with an adult (that they weren't invited into).  My almost 14yo daughter has become a hover-er.  She tries to read behind me when Im online.  She tries to plant herself next to me when one of my friends comes over.   Her contributions to conversations tend to be random suggestions (when she doesn't have all the information of what we are talking about) or she spends the time correcting me.  

 

Me (talking to an adult): We went to the park like three days ago

Her: It was the 14th mom

 

Me: April, June, and I were taking a walk

Her: Dont your remember that May was there too?

 

She wouldnt stop doing it.  I corrected her privately a few times, then I started correcting her in front of the other person.  Still wouldnt stop.   About a month ago, I was talking to a few people and she did it again.  This time, my brother (who she loves and trusts) pulled her aside and told her she was being impolite (kindly).  She hasnt corrected me again since then.  But she still hovers.  I know she just wants to be included, but its irritating.  

 

BTDT. I finally told my teen that if he couldn't find something to go and do when I have a friend over, then I would find it necessary for him to clean out the fridge and defrost the freezer, and anything else I could think up to keep him busy.

[TammyS]

 

 

I probably should make this a spin off question, but am I wrong for telling her to be quiet instead of jumping into an adult conversation?

 

I don't think you are wrong.  And I don't think that it's an issue so much that it's an "adult" conversation, as that it is "someone else's" conversation.  It would be rude if she did it to others girls her age.  It would be rude if an adult did it to her and another girl her age.  It would be rude if another adult did it to you and her.

[TammyS]

 When it's pointed out to him, his response is, "Well, I have something to say too!"... 

 

No, no he doesn't have something to say, too!  It's not his conversation!! 

 

 

[barnwife]

You look at it as ignoring them.  I look at it as: the person came into a situation that they were not invited to,  can see that the people are already engaged, and if they have manners they would take themselves somewhere else, rather than expect others to stop what they were doing to engage with them instead.

Well, sometimes the person who interrupts has business/something to do there. And if the conversation is taking place in a public place, it's slightly absurd imo to expect them to postpone what they are doing for the benefit of the people already in conversation. They could, after all, seek a private place to have a conversation if they don't wish others to participate.

 

As an example, our church has a small library. The room is tiny. It has a table against a wall, a recliner, a box to return items, and a shelf of books. If Sue and Barb are having a discussion there and Joan walks in to look for books, it would be ridiculous for them to not include Joan due to the small quarters. This may be Joan's only chance to use the library that week. So expecting her to leave when Sue and Barb could go elsewhere to continue chatting is just strange. 

 

Now, chances are that Joan would say something like "oops...I don't mean to interrupt. I just need a moment to find a book." But, if I were Barb or Sue, I would not expect her to leave.

 

Furthermore, the bolded comes across as rude to me. I merely posted to make the point that what seems rude to you is not rude in the crowds I hang out with. Actually, now I am thinking of specific people I know, and to describe them as having no manners is, quite frankly, absurd. 

[JennyD]

 I have a son like this, it is not a be seen and not heard mentality, but we do not need his opinion on everything all the time based on what someone else is saying.  

 

We would not just randomly start chirping out opinion at these people having a conversation that did not include us.  

 

 

I have a conversation with my 9-almost-10yo son about this very issue at least several times a day.  LOL at the random chirping descriptor.   

 

This thread is making me feel a lot better, actually.  It had not even occurred to either DH or myself that might be an age-related behavior.  Not that that makes it any less annoying, of course, but I still feel better. 

[TammyS]

Well, sometimes the person who interrupts has business/something to do there. And if the conversation is taking place in a public place, it's slightly absurd imo to expect them to postpone what they are doing for the benefit of the people already in conversation. They could, after all, seek a private place to have a conversation if they don't wish others to participate.

 

As an example, our church has a small library. The room is tiny. It has a table against a wall, a recliner, a box to return items, and a shelf of books. If Sue and Barb are having a discussion there and Joan walks in to look for books, it would be ridiculous for them to not include Joan due to the small quarters. This may be Joan's only chance to use the library that week. So expecting her to leave when Sue and Barb could go elsewhere to continue chatting is just strange. 

 

Now, chances are that Joan would say something like "oops...I don't mean to interrupt. I just need a moment to find a book." But, if I were Barb or Sue, I would not expect her to leave.

 

Furthermore, the bolded comes across as rude to me. I merely posted to make the point that what seems rude to you is not rude in the crowds I hang out with. Actually, now I am thinking of specific people I know, and to describe them as having no manners is, quite frankly, absurd. 

 

Your example doesn't fit the situation (is, absurd, to use your favorite word).  The little library in question has a function, that of a library.  So naturally two people having a conversation would expect that others will come in and use it as a library.  At which point they can choose to leave (and if the room is so small that they are getting in the way of people using it for it's purpose, maybe they should), or choose to allow themselves to be overheard.  But they aren't obligated to include the new person in their conversation.

 

[Ausmumof3]

So if you are at church and everyone is having conversations already you can't go join one? You have to sit and stare at the wall or something? This seems so odd to me.

[fairfarmhand]

Yeah and why not?  I can't think of pretty much anything I wouldn't talk about in front of my kids.  Why shouldn't they be aware of what mammograms are?  What's the big deal. It's a common medical test/procedure.  I might not want to discuss my sex life with my kids, but something mundane like a medical test?  Sure, why not?:

 

Well, mentioning what a mammogram is is different from discussing how it went, what they found, what the results could mean, etc.

 

My kids have had 3 of their 4 grandparents diagnosed with cancer and have lost one grandparent from cancer. I don't mention things to worry about until I know there's something to worry about. I have 3 kids who are fretters. They don't have the maturity to know most things are probably nothing and fretting changes nothing. So until we know for certain that there;s an issue, I might discuss my worries with my friends , who have the experience to know when to worry but not with my kids.

 

Also, I am very private about my medical stuff. I mean, I didn't even tell my dad when I had a lump. I was processing my own feelings about that and just couldn't face dealing with other people's feelings about it until I knew what was what.

 

Another reason I wouldn't share too much medical stuff with my kids or in the presence of other people's kids is that a few of my own kids have no filter. They would blab my private medical stuff to who knows who! I don't know how other people's kids would do with keeping confidences either. So I tend to stick to more superficial stuff when kids are around.

This is such a difficult area for me with my kids. At least for me I see it as one of the positives and negatives of homeschooling.

 

Since we homeschool, my kids have always talked to me about everything. We discuss things we are studying, TV shows, movies, music, etc. We debate and disagree, toss ideas around, etc. Which is perfect to me, it's how I want our family and homeschool to run. Don't get me wrong. There are times dh or I have to let them know they have crossed the line from debate to rude and disrespectful and there are definitely things dh and I discuss that get a closed door so we can be private, but for the most part dh and I have a very back and forth relationship with the kids. This is the positive for me.

 

And now for the negative....when I'm at church or out with the kids and I am talking to an adult sometimes my oldest will come up and insert herself into the conversation with her opinions and comments.  Because of how we've raised her, she doesn't see her being a child as making her thoughts or comments less valid or unimportant . The conversation between myself and the other adult is not necessarily heavy or important, but I notice that most people look surprised and annoyed at her intrusion. She is not rude or disrespectful in her comments, but I can tell that 90% of the time the person I'm talking to is initially surprised and then standoffish about it. I've tried to explain to my dd that the way she interacts with us at home is not socially acceptable to all adults so when we're out in public if she "joins" a conversation I'm having, she just needs to stand and listen, but not provide input unless asked. She is getting better about this, but she is very extroverted so having to be silent when there are people to interact with is VERY difficult for her.

 

I probably should make this a spin off question, but am I wrong for telling her to be quiet instead of jumping into an adult conversation?

You are not wrong for telling her to stay out.

 

See what happens in these situations is that when I walk over to speak to Chelli, I am planning on speaking to Chelli. If Chelli's dh or her son or dd pipes up about our conversation, I might not consider it rude per se. More that I really wasn't expecting to have a conversation with Chelli's dd so I am kind of taken aback. I know adults who sometimes do the same kind of thing (insert themselves into conversations ) and it annoys me. Those are the adults I avoid because they are usually socially awkward in other ways too.

 

I was thinking this over and I think what happens is that the kids sometimes end up in the presence of a conversation by virtue of being my kid. It's not that the adults don't value their opinions, but it's more that on their own, the other party wouldn't really bring up that topic with the kid. So they really may not be very interested in hearing that kid's opinion on that topic. My dd is an intelligent, witty, interesting kid. Adults are interested in her thoughts in many areas and she converses well with them when it's actually a conversation that concerns her.

 

However, if there's other conversations that talk about other topics and she just happens to be present, it is annoying when she kind of "rides my coattails" into the conversation, because otherwise, the adults may not be interested in her thoughts on the idea.

[fairfarmhand]

So if you are at church and everyone is having conversations already you can't go join one? You have to sit and stare at the wall or something? This seems so odd to me.

 

It's weird to describe how I join in. I kind of glance around making eye contact and saying how are you. I watch people's body language to see how open they are to having a person join their group. It's just kind of being considerate and aware of the signals that people are giving as to how their discussion is going.

 

[redsquirrel]

So if you are at church and everyone is having conversations already you can't go join one? You have to sit and stare at the wall or something? This seems so odd to me.

 

It would seem odder to me to just walk up to people who are conversing and join their conversation without any prompting.

 

I generally look for social cues to see if a group or a pair is open to another person joining. Or I get called over by a friend etc. But I don't just walk up to people and horn in. Ausmumof3, I am sure you don't either. I bet you are aware of social cues and look for the opening.

[zoobie]

It's weird to describe how I join in. I kind of glance around making eye contact and saying how are you. I watch people's body language to see how open they are to having a person join their group. It's just kind of being considerate and aware of the signals that people are giving as to how their discussion is going.

 

Exactly. The people standing with open stances, laughing and chatting? Approach and smile. Proceed from there. People in a group of two, closed stance, in an out of the way corner, not making eye contact with others? Leave them be. It's the social cues that most people innately obtain by modeling that some (like my DD) don't get and will hamper them if it's not explicitly taught. Maybe those "seen and not heard" people knew that kids learned a great deal by observing quietly. ;)

[Ausmumof3]

Exactly. The people standing with open stances, laughing and chatting? Approach and smile. Proceed from there. People in a group of two, closed stance, in an out of the way corner, not making eye contact with others? Leave them be. It's the social cues that most people innately obtain by modeling that some (like my DD) don't get and will hamper them if it's not explicitly taught. Maybe those "seen and not heard" people knew that kids learned a great deal by observing quietly. ;)

Yeah I'm kind of bad at social cues, but that is probably what I would look at. Two people kind of half facing each other, half looking out over the group are open to conversation. Two people looking straight at each other and standing close together aren't open to including others.

 

It's helpful to me to define stuff like this, as I find it hard to figure out what to tell my kids.

[fairfarmhand]

Exactly. The people standing with open stances, laughing and chatting? Approach and smile. Proceed from there. People in a group of two, closed stance, in an out of the way corner, not making eye contact with others? Leave them be. It's the social cues that most people innately obtain by modeling that some (like my DD) don't get and will hamper them if it's not explicitly taught. Maybe those "seen and not heard" people knew that kids learned a great deal by observing quietly. ;)

 

 

Yeah I'm kind of bad at social cues, but that is probably what I would look at. Two people kind of half facing each other, half looking out over the group are open to conversation. Two people looking straight at each other and standing close together aren't open to including others.

 

It's helpful to me to define stuff like this, as I find it hard to figure out what to tell my kids.

I've told my kids to think more about OTHERS than about themselves and they will be fine. Instead of OH MY WORD they're talking Dr, Who and

I have to be a part of that! I want them to think about the other people and the signals that are being shown.

 

Serious, quiet conversations off in a corner mean "private. None of my business unless invited in" (Many times I think my girls are just nosily wondering what I'm talking about. ) Laughing, joking, looking around the room mean "We're having fun! The more the merrier!"

[TammyS]

 Maybe those "seen and not heard" people knew that kids learned a great deal by observing quietly. ;)

 

I'm not a strictly "seen and not heard" parent, but I think that we judge them unfairly when we believe them to be harsh.  Families used to be bigger.  If you've got 8-10 kids, or more, there is just only so much a person can take of being interrupted.  There is a certain level of self-defense that comes into play when there are so many kids, and comparatively few adults.

 

And you are right.  They do learn a great deal by observing quietly, rather than spending the entire time thinking about what they want to say and looking for an opportunity to horn in.

[momee]

As the OP, thanks to everyone for your comments.  I wish we had nameplates that said, from the south or from the north, lol

 

Here where I live...this...

 

"To me, when a third (or fourth or whatever) person comes in, not including them is rude"

 

would get me in big trouble at church.  If Sue were coming up to a group of Meg, Julie and myself and I did not take time to stop talking, be sure Sue knew everyone and caught her up on what we were talking about OR changed the subject, we would be considered a "clique" and she just might get offended.

 

I'm not kidding in the least.  As a "greeter" at my church, I am all morning making sure Sue knows Meg and taking time to include Julie, even if she is quiet.

 

We are known throughout our area as a very welcoming place.  Maybe this is part of the reason.  We would NOT leave Sue out, even if the original three were in an intense personal conversation.  It would be bad form here.

Just sayin'.

And yes, we are in the south.  Bible belt, southern country folk :)

[momee]

I've been thinking about my original question.

 

I am affirmed in my decision to include my kids on any conversations that take place in public here in our home.  If they aren't welcome, it is one that will be carried to a private place.  I LOVE that they feel welcome and have things to add.  That, in my humble opinion, is a blessing to them.

IF they are disrespectful, attempt to manipulate or dominate the conversation, or they forget their place as children in the midst of adults or display an attitude of unwillingness to be taught, that's when we will have to address the situation.

 

That said, I have to admit, you all have prompted me to want to begin talking with them about the politeness of respecting adult conversations and waiting for cues to enter a conversation.  Those things definitely wouldn't hurt their social knowledge, lol.

 

These posts are great reminders that we are all different and all come from different social environments.

I don't want to teach them people pleasing but at the same time want them to learn respect for everyone.

 

I have to say, I think my kids carry their comfort with conversation here at home into the world and that makes me, well, downright proud :)  They're amazing, thoughtful, courteous and can outwelcome and outlove many adults I know when it comes to conversing.  We're on the right track but always have more to learn.

[Joker]

Some of the language used makes me think some of us are talking about very different things. My dds don't horn in on a conversation, they don't pester to belong, and they don't sit with us thinking about how to interject themselves into a conversation. They simply engage as any adult would. They've never been made to feel like they are intruding or rude. No friend or acquaintance has told me they are uncomfortable (almost all allow their own dc to behave the same). My dds are teens now and have never been made to feel they have bad manners. I actually receive numerous compliments on their manners. I really feel we're talking about different things here.

 

 

[momee]

I'm with you, Joker.

 

I was worried I might be doing something wrong because my kids do exactly what you described.

Now I see others are talking about kids interjecting just for the sake of dissenting or getting attention, or whatever...

 

 

Here was my question, and I think we got off topic from it, which is fine...but I was asking if any interrupting is considered by the Hive as rude...

 

"I'm just asking...would a child who comments on what is being said aloud even though not directed at them personally be considered rude by the general public?  I don't mean the child would be disrespectful in WHAT they say, I just mean their saying ANYTHING if not directly invited to the conversation??? "

[Joanne]

I respect children and teens as equal humans. But I also show that respect in context and within the context of my life, and setting.

What I mean by that is I won't trivialize teen love but calling it puppy love. I won't rush my (used to be very young) children through mourning the loss of a person, pet, important thing. As they grew, I gave them age appropriate say in curriculum (and, later, school setting), activities. I've given my 16 year old my entire budget: income, bills, total disclosure and allowed him to plan the monthly budget. (And I followed his plan).

 

But kids (and teens) are kids (and teens.) When mine were young and I was still raising littles and middles, I needed ~~ needed ~~ adult conversation. I also felt it was important that they not "take on" and assume they were welcome in adult conversations. I had many adult centered conversations around my kids that I expected they not 1) interupt or 2) join.

 

I'd do it the same way if I had a do-over. It was not "kids are to be seen and not heard" but it wasn't "they are welcome in any conversation I have around them" either.

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

"I'm just asking...would a child who comments on what is being said aloud even though not directed at them personally be considered rude by the general public?  I don't mean the child would be disrespectful in WHAT they say, I just mean their saying ANYTHING if not directly invited to the conversation??? "

 

I think the problem is that it's impossible to answer this question because there are so many potential contexts and so many potential ways for the child to comment. I can think of scenarios that have happened where the child's commentary was on point and welcomed, or funny, or not perceived as anyone (including me) as an interruption of the (usually light) conversation that was happening. And then I can think of scenarios where I've been talking to an adult friend about an issue that's important to me, or something serious about another friend, and a child has wandered in and started listening and commenting, and it was NOT welcome at all (by me, since the issue we were discussing was mine). So I think it's difficult for many of us to answer because we're envisioning different ways in which this may have happened to us and how we reacted at the time.

 

In the situations where I've not been happy to be interrupted, the child in question failed to notice that the conversation halted completely when they sat down with us and that I stopped talking, and then the subject changed entirely. That would be a cue to most adults that they had interrupted something private and they might get up and walk away after a few minutes. It would have been a good opportunity for the parent to gently (or not so gently) point out to the child that a private conversation was happening and to go find something else to do. Instead, in the main instance I can recall, the parent allowed the child to take over the conversation and even argue with me a bit over something silly. In other instances the parent has started to explain what we're talking about to the child, which was frustrating because, as others have pointed out, it's usually not a subject I would have chosen to discuss with someone else's kids. 

 

I don't think there's one overarching, all-or-nothing response, which is why so many people mentioned the importance of social cues.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

No friend or acquaintance has told me they are uncomfortable (almost all allow their own dc to behave the same). My dds are teens now and have never been made to feel they have bad manners. I actually receive numerous compliments on their manners. I really feel we're talking about different things here.

 

It's unlikely that a friend would tell you they felt your child was intrusive or rude. When this kind of thing has happened to me, I've just brushed it off, but it has made me less likely to have personal conversations with certain people, and it has changed the way I interact with some people as well. If I never feel like I can get into a deep conversation with someone lest we be interrupted and the conversation effectively ended at any moment, I'm not going to confront them about it. I'm just not going to bother. I'll have those conversations with someone else instead.

[Joker]

It's unlikely that a friend would tell you they felt your child was intrusive or rude. When this kind of thing has happened to me, I've just brushed it off, but it has made me less likely to have personal conversations with certain people, and it has changed the way I interact with some people as well. If I never feel like I can get into a deep conversation with someone lest we be interrupted and the conversation effectively ended at any moment, I'm not going to confront them about it. I'm just not going to bother. I'll have those conversations with someone else instead.

 

My friends actually have zero issues with their dc acting the same as my own. That's probably why we're friends. We all can have good conversations with our dc around. They are not keeping their feelings from me and I'm not keeping things from them because sometimes their dc are around and involved in our discussions. I've known my best friend since we were 13 and we're still going strong. If she had a problem with my dds, she would definitely tell me (and I would listen).

 

People and friendships are different. I obviously don't fit your mold but that doesn't mean my friends are only playing at being nice.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

My friends actually have zero issues with their dc acting the same as my own. That's probably why we're friends. We all can have good conversations with our dc around. They are not keeping their feelings from me and I'm not keeping things from them because sometimes their dc are around and involved in our discussions. I've known my best friend since we were 13 and we're still going strong. If she had a problem with my dds, she would definitely tell me (and I would listen).

 

People and friendships are different. I obviously don't fit your mold but that doesn't mean my friends are only playing at being nice.

 

:confused1:  So if I choose not to comment on how my friends are raising their kids, I'm "playing at being nice"? I choose not to tell my friends how I feel because they're free to parent their kids however they feel is best. In general, they're very intentional parents and have given their decisions a good amount of thought. I may or may not agree with them or choose to raise my kids the same way, but I don't see it as my business to correct their parenting in any capacity by insulting their kids. Instead I adjust my own expectations. I'm not sure how that makes me some kind of faker?

 

So you're saying there's not any kind of conversation you'd have with your best friend that you wouldn't want the kids wandering in on? All topics are fair game? Marital issues, issues you're having with your kids? Another friend's increasing mental illness? Issues with another set of parents? You don't consider any of those sorts of topics not appropriate for children? If your friend came to you with something she wanted to discuss and your own child walked into the room, you'd continue the conversation in front of the child regardless of whether the other person wanted to? Or you'd just allow the discussion to die rather than tell the child that they need to give you some privacy? I really can't fathom that. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

My friends actually have zero issues with their dc acting the same as my own. That's probably why we're friends. We all can have good conversations with our dc around. They are not keeping their feelings from me and I'm not keeping things from them because sometimes their dc are around and involved in our discussions. I've known my best friend since we were 13 and we're still going strong. If she had a problem with my dds, she would definitely tell me (and I would listen).

 

People and friendships are different. I obviously don't fit your mold but that doesn't mean my friends are only playing at being nice.

It sounds like we have similar family and friend cultures.  

 

If I want totally adult time then I go out without the kids.  If my kids want time without me around then they go out without me (to the park or someone's house).  We aren't in each other's space necessarily but we enjoy being around each other at home.  What I think is rather funny is that when they have friends over the kids often follow me around instead of going off by themselves.  I think they include me partly because I include them.  

 

I don't ever remember my kids inserting themselves inappropriately into conversations.  And I don't think I've just blocked that out!  I'm sure if they did, we would have worked on that.  We certainly worked on plenty of other issues!   I don't think it is inappropriate for kids to be involved in conversations with adults though.  And if my friends do then they sure have subjected themselves to me and my family an awful lot with superb acting skills.  

 

BTW I don't think others are wrong to have a different family/friend culture than we do.  It's just their way.  But my kids are a bit baffled when they are around kids who don't have anything to do with the adults in a room and go off by themselves.  Again- not wrong, just different.   

[Joker]

:confused1:  So if I choose not to comment on how my friends are raising their kids, I'm "playing at being nice"? I choose not to tell my friends how I feel because they're free to parent their kids however they feel is best. In general, they're very intentional parents and have given their decisions a good amount of thought. I may or may not agree with them or choose to raise my kids the same way, but I don't see it as my business to correct their parenting in any capacity by insulting their kids. Instead I adjust my own expectations. I'm not sure how that makes me some kind of faker?

 

So you're saying there's not any kind of conversation you'd have with your best friend that you wouldn't want the kids wandering in on? All topics are fair game? Marital issues, issues you're having with your kids? Another friend's increasing mental illness? Issues with another set of parents? You don't consider any of those sorts of topics not appropriate for children? If your friend came to you with something she wanted to discuss and your own child walked into the room, you'd continue the conversation in front of the child regardless of whether the other person wanted to? Or you'd just allow the discussion to die rather than tell the child that they need to give you some privacy? I really can't fathom that. 

 

I'm pretty sure I said friendships are different. I'm not commenting on yours but you chose to insinuate my friends were keeping things from me.

 

I actually don't have conversations with my friends in our homes, even my bestie, that I would not want my dds walking in on. I don't share marital issues. Those are between dh and I. I also wouldn't talk about another friend's mental illness. My own dd has struggled with that this past year and it is discussed with no one other than dh (because dd would be devastated to know it was discussed with anyone else she knows IRL). I love my friends but if I want privacy, I make sure it is private (usually over the phone or while having coffee/tea somewhere). I really don't get why that is hard to understand.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I'm pretty sure I said friendships are different. I'm not commenting on yours but you chose to insinuate my friends were keeping things from me.

 

I actually don't have conversations with my friends in our homes, even my bestie, that I would not want my dds walking in on. I don't share marital issues. Those are between dh and I. I also wouldn't talk about another friend's mental illness. My own dd has struggled with that this past year and it is discussed with no one other than dh (because dd would be devastated to know it was discussed with anyone else she knows IRL). I love my friends but if I want privacy, I make sure it is private (usually over the phone or while having coffee/tea somewhere). I really don't get why that is hard to understand.

 

I think you're reading something into my words that is not there. I didn't insinuate anything--I specifically said that it's unlikely someone would flat out tell you if they had negative thoughts about your kid. Do you say every thought that comes into your head to everyone you know? Don't you just keep some things to yourself, because in the end, they don't concern you anyway, and it's not your place to say something? 

 

As to the rest, well, I guess we have different conversations then. My friends and I don't generally talk on the phone (which isn't private around here anyway, as it seems to be a child-magnet), and our kids are young enough and our husbands are working so much that we don't get a lot of coffee shop time. If we want to talk, we have to do it at the IRL get-togethers, which usually involve lots of young people. But yes, I surely do rely on my friends for their feedback on certain kinds of marital issues, and we talk about the friend's mental illness (which she shares with us because we help to support her) in our concern for her and in our attempts to work out the best ways to help her. And I don't really get why THAT is hard to understand.

 

I guess I really can't imagine feeling like I had to leave my own house in order to have a conversation just so that my kids wouldn't have to feel like they were left out of something. That's what it seems to me like we're talking about here. I live in my house too, just like my kids do. When oldest DD's friends are here, they have conversations that I don't feel privy to. They're entitled to that. They lower their voices a bit, and I make sure I don't hover around corners or walk into the room and flop down on the floor with them. And I'm entitled to the same thing when my friends are here. 

[Joker]

I think you're reading something into my words that is not there. I didn't insinuate anything--I specifically said that it's unlikely someone would flat out tell you if they had negative thoughts about your kid. Do you say every thought that comes into your head to everyone you know? Don't you just keep some things to yourself, because in the end, they don't concern you anyway, and it's not your place to say something?

 

As to the rest, well, I guess we have different conversations then. My friends and I don't generally talk on the phone (which isn't private around here anyway, as it seems to be a child-magnet), and our kids are young enough and our husbands are working so much that we don't get a lot of coffee shop time. If we want to talk, we have to do it at the IRL get-togethers, which usually involve lots of young people. But yes, I surely do rely on my friends for their feedback on certain kinds of marital issues, and we talk about the friend's mental illness (which she shares with us because we help to support her) in our concern for her and in our attempts to work out the best ways to help her. And I don't really get what THAT is hard to understand.

It is not hard to understand. I was simply replying to the OP with a different way. I've not said how you do things is wrong or said your friends might be keeping things from you. You said, again, it us unlikely my friends would say something negative about my dds. I say you are wrong. BTDT and still friends.

[Joker]

I think you're reading something into my words that is not there. I didn't insinuate anything--I specifically said that it's unlikely someone would flat out tell you if they had negative thoughts about your kid. Do you say every thought that comes into your head to everyone you know? Don't you just keep some things to yourself, because in the end, they don't concern you anyway, and it's not your place to say something?

 

As to the rest, well, I guess we have different conversations then. My friends and I don't generally talk on the phone (which isn't private around here anyway, as it seems to be a child-magnet), and our kids are young enough and our husbands are working so much that we don't get a lot of coffee shop time. If we want to talk, we have to do it at the IRL get-togethers, which usually involve lots of young people. But yes, I surely do rely on my friends for their feedback on certain kinds of marital issues, and we talk about the friend's mental illness (which she shares with us because we help to support her) in our concern for her and in our attempts to work out the best ways to help her. And I don't really get why THAT is hard to understand.

 

I guess I really can't imagine feeling like I had to leave my own house in order to have a conversation just so that my kids wouldn't have to feel like they were left out of something. That's what it seems to me like we're talking about here. I live in my house too, just like my kids do. When oldest DD's friends are here, they have conversations that I don't feel privy to. They're entitled to that. They lower their voices a bit, and I make sure I don't hover around corners or walk into the room and flop down on the floor with them. And I'm entitled to the same thing when my friends are here.

In regards to what you added, this is where we differ greatly. I don't have a need to leave my house for private conversations because they are needed so rarely. That's not a judgement on either of us. It's just a difference in how we view things.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

OK, more power to you then, I guess  :cheers2:

[kiwik]

To me anyone, children included who interrupts a conversation to put their two cents in is rude. I have a son like this, it is not a be seen and not heard mentality, but we do not need his opinion on everything all the time based on what someone else is saying. SO if I am on the phone he is in the background putting his 2 cents in, if I am talking to older son he has to put his 2 cents in. Heck in public standing in line, 2 people can be talking and he will put his 2 cents in when it has nothing to do with him. Now we all have those moments where we chime in to other conversations, but we usually say something like "sorry to interrupt but I couldn't help but hear you say........"and then add something useful to the conversation or use it as a starter. We would not just randomly start chirping out opinion at these people having a conversation that did not include us. I do not feel one has to tuck away into a separate room to have a more private conversation. For example, if I want to talk to my daughter about something in the kitchen I should be able to do that without son jumping in with his 2 cents. And it has nothing to do with seen and not heard, it is just basic manners and respect for other people. THe world does not revolve around him, so he should stop trying to make the focus always be on him by jumping into everything.

I think if the conversation is private it shouldn't take place near enough or loud enough that I can't help but hear it. I have a lot of difficulty screening out noise and will hear all conversations nearby unless completely engrossed in a book. If you inflict your opinions on me unasked you may get unasked for responses because you are ruining my break/cup of coffee/workout whatever.

[Ausmumof3]

I think if the conversation is private it shouldn't take place near enough or loud enough that I can't help but hear it. I have a lot of difficulty screening out noise and will hear all conversations nearby unless completely engrossed in a book. If you inflict your opinions on me unasked you may get unasked for responses because you are ruining my break/cup of coffee/workout whatever.

Nothing worse than trying to tune out someone's private conversation when you're on a bus or something...

[SparklyUnicorn]

In regards to what you added, this is where we differ greatly. I don't have a need to leave my house for private conversations because they are needed so rarely. That's not a judgement on either of us. It's just a difference in how we view things.

 

I'm like this too. 

 

Maybe I lead a boring life or an odd life, but the stuff I like to talk about isn't personal stuff. 

[Hkpiano]

I used to have a friend who had five kids at the time. I think her oldest was about nine. Between having to feed or change a baby or toddler or getting interrupted by the older kids, I felt like I could rarely get more than a few sentences out without kids pestering us (unless it was naptime for them). At the time, I was alone all day with a baby myself, so having my supposed adult conversation constantly ruined by little kids drove me crazy.

This is almost exactly the same situation that my friend/neighbor and I find ourselves in, except she is the stay-at-home mom with the baby and I am the (homeschooling) mom of a 3, 5, and 7 year old. We are often interrupted by my kids when we hang out in the afternoons. They will ask for a snack, or for me to get out a specific toy, or occasionally I'll need to correct an inappropriate behavior, whereas she is content to talk a mile a minute while her baby shrieks in her bumbo, ignored (she doesn't like my kids playing with the baby, ie "getting in her face"). After listening to her complain about how distracted I am by my kids multiple times, I no longer invite her over while they are awake. If she wants to spend "adult time" then she is welcome to come over after they are in bed. I refuse to feel guilty for being a mother. All my other friends understand that when we get together, the kids will occasionally be a disruption. I am teaching them not to interrupt but it still happens sometimes.

 

Anyway, not trying to derail the thread, I just found this post really irrational. Your friend had five kids, ages 9 and under. What in the world did you expect?

[barnwife]

Your example doesn't fit the situation (is, absurd, to use your favorite word).  The little library in question has a function, that of a library.  So naturally two people having a conversation would expect that others will come in and use it as a library.  At which point they can choose to leave (and if the room is so small that they are getting in the way of people using it for it's purpose, maybe they should), or choose to allow themselves to be overheard.  But they aren't obligated to include the new person in their conversation.

 

Meh...change the place to the local coffee shop. If two ladies are chatting and someone one of them knows comes in, chances are high around here that the new person would be extended an invitation to join them. 

 

Again, I am fine disagreeing with you. The norms around here are clearly different than wherever you are. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is almost exactly the same situation that my friend/neighbor and I find ourselves in, except she is the stay-at-home mom with the baby and I am the (homeschooling) mom of a 3, 5, and 7 year old. We are often interrupted by my kids when we hang out in the afternoons. They will ask for a snack, or for me to get out a specific toy, or occasionally I'll need to correct an inappropriate behavior, whereas she is content to talk a mile a minute while her baby shrieks in her bumbo, ignored (she doesn't like my kids playing with the baby, ie "getting in her face"). After listening to her complain about how distracted I am by my kids multiple times, I no longer invite her over while they are awake. If she wants to spend "adult time" then she is welcome to come over after they are in bed. I refuse to feel guilty for being a mother. All my other friends understand that when we get together, the kids will occasionally be a disruption. I am teaching them not to interrupt but it still happens sometimes.

 

Anyway, not trying to derail the thread, I just found this post really irrational. Your friend had five kids, ages 9 and under. What in the world did you expect?

 

And ya know, relatively speaking that's a short time in a person's life.  Although maybe not with 5 kids.  LOL  I only have 2, but some of those hardest times when they were little are fading away already and my oldest is 13.  I don't have to worry about him jumping up and down and whining because he is hungry, thirsty, needs help in the bathroom, etc.  That time only lasted not even 10 years.  At the time he was little I had other friends with littles because they could relate and we could hang out together with our needy little gremlins. 

[TammyS]

 

Anyway, not trying to derail the thread, I just found this post really irrational. Your friend had five kids, ages 9 and under. What in the world did you expect?

 

If it were me, I would expect interruptions by babies and toddlers, not by older kids.

[TammyS]

Meh...change the place to the local coffee shop. If two ladies are chatting and someone one of them knows comes in, chances are high around here that the new person would be extended an invitation to join them. 

 

Again, I am fine disagreeing with you. The norms around here are clearly different than wherever you are. 

 

Actually, this just happened to a friend and I at a coffee shop.  We ran into two friends who were at another table.  We stopped to say hello, but we didn't sit down.  An invitation to join them was not extended and we did not expect one.

[Hkpiano]

Right, the 9 year old would presumably not be the problem, (my 7 year old rarely interrupts unless it is to tell me about something my 3 year old is doing that I need to address, or if he wants to ask to go play at a friend's house or something). But the post that I quoted specifically referenced a baby and a toddler.

[hornblower]

Sometimes I wonder if actual wars start because of etiquette issues that just blew up out of proportion. ;)

 

I'm trying to parent with a "manners, they matter! But not as much as some think." approach.

[Epicurean]

This is almost exactly the same situation that my friend/neighbor and I find ourselves in, except she is the stay-at-home mom with the baby and I am the (homeschooling) mom of a 3, 5, and 7 year old. We are often interrupted by my kids when we hang out in the afternoons. They will ask for a snack, or for me to get out a specific toy, or occasionally I'll need to correct an inappropriate behavior, whereas she is content to talk a mile a minute while her baby shrieks in her bumbo, ignored (she doesn't like my kids playing with the baby, ie "getting in her face"). After listening to her complain about how distracted I am by my kids multiple times, I no longer invite her over while they are awake. If she wants to spend "adult time" then she is welcome to come over after they are in bed. I refuse to feel guilty for being a mother. All my other friends understand that when we get together, the kids will occasionally be a disruption. I am teaching them not to interrupt but it still happens sometimes.

 

Anyway, not trying to derail the thread, I just found this post really irrational. Your friend had five kids, ages 9 and under. What in the world did you expect?

 

I have a friend with eight kids aged 8 and under. Her children know not to interrupt or hover around adult conversation. Every now and then, she'll have to pause to correct a behavior or change a diaper, but those things are really very minor. Her kids are not neglected or crying for attention.

 

I sympathize with your situation and I don't mean that you should emulate this lady (to each their own). I'm just saying that this lady's family illustrates that this is not dependent on the number of children. It's all about family culture.

[Hkpiano]

I have a friend with eight kids aged 8 and under. Her children know not to interrupt or hover around adult conversation. Every now and then, she'll have to pause to correct a behavior or change a diaper, but those things are really very minor. Her kids are not neglected or crying for attention.

 

I sympathize with your situation and I don't mean that you should emulate this lady (to each their own). I'm just saying that this lady's family illustrates that this is not dependent on the number of children. It's all about family culture.

Certainly I did not mean to imply that kids who don't interrupt are neglected. Nor do my kids hover. I do think it has something to do with number of kids because one child who needs to be attended to once an hour is obviously going to be interrupting less frequently than 5 children who each need something once per hour.

 

You're right about the family culture. It kind of goes back to the "seen and not heard" debate. I was the child who never interrupted and who was quiet and well-behaved all the time. My parents often got compliments on their children's behavior. Unfortunately the way they achieved that was through corporal punishment and being extremely strict. This is not the way I choose to parent. I assume that is not the way your friend parents either, but I just don't know how to eliminate occasional interruptions from my kids without being harsh or just plopping them in front of the tv, you know? My kids certainly are not perfect but my neighbor's expectations (in more than just this area) were unrealistic and caused a lot of frustration for both of us. Once I realized that she expected my complete undivided attention, I realized I should only have her over when I could provide that.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sometimes I wonder if actual wars start because of etiquette issues that just blew up out of proportion. ;)

 

I'm trying to parent with a "manners, they matter! But not as much as some think." approach.

I think this is key.  

 

 

Also - kids differ from each other not only in personality but in neediness.  This can change depending on their age but sometimes even an older child goes through a time when they need more of mom.  The thing is, I think the ones to be flexible in situations like this are the adults, not the children.  Yes, I teach manners and social skills but sometimes it's the teaching of the manners and the social skills that requires the adult flexibility!  I do understand some of the frustration that can come up without private adult time but this is part of what I signed up for as a mom even if I might not have totally understood how it was going to play out year after year.  I have friends still with littles and if they truly want adult only time they will ask Dad to pitch in or they will ask my kids to babysit or they will call me late at night when their littles are in bed.  I did the same kind of thing when my kids were littles.  Otherwise, when we get together we understand that interruptions will happen and so will clingy kids who just want lap time etc.  It doesn't mean that I won't ever gently guide my child to do the "neat game over there" but sometimes that will work and sometimes it won't and I refuse to get upset over it.  As a child, I learned to be a friend and to have real conversations by being with my parents in all sorts of social situations.  Sometimes I just quietly soaked it all up (as my kids do at times) and sometimes I was more actively involved in the conversation (as my kids do at times).  I try to remember that when I'm around kids and do try to pull them in at times if they are hovering around the edges.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sometimes I wonder if actual wars start because of etiquette issues that just blew up out of proportion. ;)

 

I'm trying to parent with a "manners, they matter! But not as much as some think." approach.

 

My approach is more like think before you speak and act.  Think about how that is going to come across.  Treat people how you want to be treated. 

 

And different situations call for different things.  Sometimes it's just impossible to know you'll offend someone even with the best intentions.  Then again if they are so easily offended that you can't blink the wrong way, well then you probably won't figure out how to please them. My MIL comes to mind.

[PeacefulChaos]

I do want my children to participate in conversations. However, my dh and I often discuss things that need resolution in their presences without necessarily wanting their participation. Decisions about budgets, plans, etc. don't always need my kids input and I refuse to hide away in the bedroom to have those conversations. We also have an open floor plan. My kids have learned that sometimes mom and dad talk without them needing to stick their oars in. It's not about children being seen and not heard, but more about manners.

 

Kind of like I wouldn't take part in every conversation that occurs at church because sometimes people are having a discussion with just the two of them and just because I'm in the vicinity doesn't mean that I need to participate. Kids need to learn this too.

 

BTW, I don't stick my oar when they are having conversations unless I am needed or it concerns me.

 

I like that my kids know that mom and dad have conversations about serious stuff and sometimes disagree on how things should go. Not that we have huge blow ups in front of them, but they do hear us discuss options.

This.

I have one who will be walking through the room and hear me start to speak to DH and decide to hover to listen in. Hovering drives me nuts. Thinking one needs to be a part of every conversation drives me nuts. So I've been reminding this kid - a lot - that not everything that happens is his business.

 

Eta:

I just read a few of the other comments and I'll say that I am one of those who doesn't really appreciate being interrupted by other people's kids all the time. If I'm meeting up with them in a social capacity as adults, I find it very frustrating and annoying for a kid to be walking up every 5 minutes because they want something. For this reason, I plan for adult socialization to either be without kids at all or at my house, where I know my kids are responsible enough, and old enough, to not come and bother me.

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to feel that way. I have actually been with someone for two hours and been unable to carry on any form of conversation because the person's children required so much of her attention. It's not that I have a problem with her actively parenting (even if her parenting style is vastly different from mine), I just feel like, 'why did you even invite me here?'

[fairfarmhand]

I think I should clarify that when I consider my kids "butting in" is when they are older, say tweens and teens. Small kids are often needy and oblivious. Some kids need it spelled out when they are not really a part of what is going on in a conversation.

 

I've never had the luxury of being able to take "friend time" at a coffee shop, nor have most of my friends. I look at it as I live on 45 acres and have a 1800 square foot house. I should occasionally be able to have a semi-private conversation with a friend without my 10 yo  listening with wide eyes and commenting. I don't feel that I am hurting my kids by saying. "Go find something to do." They understand that I don't hover when they are chatting with their friends, even if they are sitting in the living room and I am in the kitchen. They  can give me the same respect. I've stepped out of a room before when a conversation between my dh and his friend or brother turns serious because I know that they might need some privacy.

 

My kids are notoriously oblivious to these prompts and I don't want them to be "That Kid" that's always sticking their noses into other people's private conversations, so I gently remind them, "Hey, look, Dad and mr. x are speaking quietly and seriously. They probably need some privacy. Let's find something else to do somewhere else in the house so they can chat for a bit. It's none of our business what they are talking about."

 

I suppose in some respects, we've developed this stuff because of the layout of our home--while it is an open plan, you CAN find ways to give others privacy if you are paying attention.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

You know, I'm wondering if some of us are talking about apples and and some of us are talking about oranges here. For example, Joker and I are having this side discussion, and I'm thinking about kids walking into conversations about budgets and marital issues and health issues, and Joker is saying she doesn't generally have those kinds of conversations with friends, so the shroud of privacy is not something she ever needs, so she considers all conversations fair game.

 

I consider maybe 65%-75% of the conversations I have with friends to be light conversation, such that I wouldn't be bothered if a child walked into it. But, IMO, the remainder are the kind of conversations where either I or the person I'm conversing would send a kid off to find something else to do. I know I'm not alone in that, because I've seen it happen, both when we were discussing an issue I brought up and when we were discussing an issue the other person brought up. We're venting, we're looking for guidance or advice, we're comparing notes, etc. 

 

Maybe this is the sticking point here, that we're talking about different kinds of conversations? That was what I was getting at when I said that I don't really think there's a one-size-fits-all response to this issue. 

 

We had an awkward moment at a gathering last week when the adults were all at a table discussing books, and one person was discussing books with sexual content. Well, in the meantime, two young kids--who are very sheltered, and whose parents take pride in keeping them sheltered--walked up and sat down with their mother. The person who was talking--who is the "all conversations are fair game" kind of person (and whose kids are teens)--didn't pause for a second. I was mortified! But what is the right thing to do? It's the table where the adults sit and have "adult time" while we wait for the kids, and the kids were supposed to be in their groups at the time. Who's entitled to that "air space" at that time? Who gets to decide how the kids' presence changes the conversation? 

 

I don't have an answer. I got up and walked away, because I was't close enough to either person to say anything and it was so stressful to me :lol:

 

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Sometimes I wonder if actual wars start because of etiquette issues that just blew up out of proportion. ;)

 

I'm trying to parent with a "manners, they matter! But not as much as some think." approach.

 

:lol: See, the funny thing is, I would say that I am too. But the manners that matter less than some people think to me are different ones. I think that will always be the case. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, in that case wouldn't the sheltering mother be the one who should have headed her kids off at the pass?  

 

I do agree with you that there is a bit of an apples/oranges thing but that just might be part of family/friend culture as well.  

[fairfarmhand]

You know, I'm wondering if some of us are talking about apples and and some of us are talking about oranges here. For example, Joker and I are having this side discussion, and I'm thinking about kids walking into conversations about budgets and marital issues and health issues, and Joker is saying she doesn't generally have those kinds of conversations with friends, so the shroud of privacy is not something she ever needs, so she considers all conversations fair game.

 

I consider maybe 65%-75% of the conversations I have with friends to be light conversation, such that I wouldn't be bothered if a child walked into it. But, IMO, the remainder are the kind of conversations where either I or the person I'm conversing would send a kid off to find something else to do. I know I'm not alone in that, because I've seen it happen, both when we were discussing an issue I brought up and when we were discussing an issue the other person brought up. We're venting, we're looking for guidance or advice, we're comparing notes, etc. 

 

Maybe this is the sticking point here, that we're talking about different kinds of conversations? That was what I was getting at when I said that I don't really think there's a one-size-fits-all response to this issue. 

 

We had an awkward moment at a gathering last week when the adults were all at a table discussing books, and one person was discussing books with sexual content. Well, in the meantime, two young kids--who are very sheltered, and whose parents take pride in keeping them sheltered--walked up and sat down with their mother. The person who was talking--who is the "all conversations are fair game" kind of person (and whose kids are teens)--didn't pause for a second. I was mortified! But what is the right thing to do? It's the table where the adults sit and have "adult time" while we wait for the kids, and the kids were supposed to be in their groups at the time. Who's entitled to that "air space" at that time? Who gets to decide how the kids' presence changes the conversation? 

 

I don't have an answer. I got up and walked away, because I was't close enough to either person to say anything and it was so stressful to me :lol:

I think you are spot on.

 

My teen could sit in on a conversation about books and movies and we'd happily include her. Music, food, fashion...they're all fair game. My friend spoke last week about what it was like in Hungary after the Berlin Wall fell. I was GLAD my teen heard that.

 

But one reason we do get together is that we need one another's support for deeper issues. The ones that I really don't need my kids or someone else's kids listening to.Marriage issues, serious health concerns, parenting struggles...we need that from other women.  I think some of us in our group don't have close relationships with moms and sisters to get that, so we get it from our friends. And it's one thing that draws us closer as friends.

It's not all light discussion.