I have been sitting in my room crying for the last hour....

[Heather in VA]

I am absolutely at my wits end with my youngest. She's 11, almost 12. She has ADD but most of the time her problem is apathy. She has struggled with math, very late bloomer with that, but we are making progress finally. She's an excellent reader. The biggest problem with reading is if she isn't interested so she skims. UGH. She loves science and Spanish. Most subjects we are surviving but I am absolutely at my wits end with writing. 

 

I have no clue what to do anymore. We did a few levels of WWE. It was fine but like pulling teeth. I've tried loose things like Bravewriter ideas. Super Structured like WWS - that actually went ok until it got too hard. It might be good to finish later. I tried GWG Writing. I tried teaching her myself with organizational ideas. We are now going through writing assignments in R&S 4 and 5. She is capable. If she was putting in the effort necessary her big problem would be learning to structure her ideas. When she writes on her own her ideas are all over the place but her sentences are excellent and word choice varied and well done.  I could deal with needing to learn how to organize but most of the time when I want her to write I get a couple barely passable sentences and that's it. She seems frustrated but I don't know how much of this is her ideas being jumbled in her head and how much of it is laziness. She is notorious for trying the shortest shortcut. 

 

For example, today we worked on supporting a topic sentence with examples. She knew plenty about the topic but I got the topic sentence and one more that was just a list. I started asking her to list examples (orally) and she just stared at me. Finally I pulled them out of her and we put something together. By then I was so frustrated I had to stop school and retreat to my room. She's completely capable of this. I can't figure out how to get her to do what she's capable of. 

 

For other subjects I've had to work hard to find the program that will fit her best and works. Then I know when we have a bad day it's usually her because I know the program is working for her. I don't feel like we are there with writing. I don't know what would be good for her to use. I don't expect anything to be magic for her but we need something that is working better than what we are doing now. We tend to like programs that are step-by-step, clearly laid out, clear instructions, no nonsense. We have grammar so I'd rather not use something that has a lot of grammar but honestly I'll do anything that could help. This is the desperate white flag. Even cost isn't really an issue. If it helps, I'll pay for it (although if it helps and isn't budget busting that's extra good). 

 

So far I have the following ideas. 

 

IEW 

Jump-In

Write Shop

Essentials in Writing. 

 

I don't even know what to try or what else to look at. I worry to some extent about programs with check lists like IEW. I don't want her so caught up in '3 adjectives' etc that she doesn't see a bigger picture in how to write. I don't know if that becomes an issue but it was something that worried me. 

 

Anyway - enough babbling. HELP!! I can't take many more days like today.

 

 

[MomatHWTK]

I am going to disagree with your assessment that the behaviors are laziness or apathy.  I would bet they are ADD symptoms. 

[Arcadia]

Is she thinking faster than she could write?

[Momling]

It sounds like you're both really frustrated. If it's a struggle, pushing harder never works. I'd step back and do something structured and non-challenging with the goal of giving her time to mature. Check out EPS The Paragraph Book. There are four of them and they each approach writing step by step. They won't have her writing essays, but they'll get her thinking about how and why we organize our writing at a paragraph level. There's plenty of time for longer assignments when she's older. Here's a link to one of them. http://www.christianbook.com/the-paragraph-book-4/dianne-tucker-laplount/9780838826744/pd/372674?dv=t&en=google-pla&event=SHOP&kw=homeschool-0-20&p=1179710&gclid=Cj0KEQiAsdCnBRC86PeFkuDJt_MBEiQAUXJfLQPi4CmCS76zG97cvBPz0VSyonnF-EO8I7vMPDNyoAcaAuQo8P8HAQ

[hornblower]

awwww :grouphug:  & a box of kleenex & a soothing hot beverage are being sent your way.

I don't have any good writing advice.

What I have is probably bad advice :D I don't know if you'll like it & I don't know how qualified I am to give it because my kids were both struggling hugely at that age. (things got better later though!)

 

My advice: I'd stop writing as a subject till next Sep.

Let that skill simmer for a bit. You say her sentences are excellent with good varied structure and vocabulary. Celebrate that. It's a big accomplishment.  If she writes stuff that's disorganized, that's fine - for now. Try to get her to talk about things instead, and maybe once in a while, start jotting down an outline as she's speaking. Then when she's finished explaining something, you can show her the outline you jotted down from what she said. You could also try to get her to record her ideas then help her order them.

I think learning to put thoughts into coherent order is a long process.

It's also a process of editing, not of first writing. I wonder if you're not giving her enough opportunity to first dump random stuff that's all over the place. Many people write really disorganized, all over the place first drafts. Many need to use various mind mapping or other thought organizing methods to sort things out. Then come back to it ( the next day) and start pulling it apart & rebuilding.

if you (or she) types them up, you can actually physically cut the sentences out & start rearranging them.

 

then you can say - oh here, maybe you could say something more about that....
 

 

 

And if you really want to buy something, I'd try something like Killgallon's Paragraph Composing - because it's cheap, &  one of the activities is unscrambling ideas & sentences & building a coherent paragraph....



 

[Lori D.]

:grouphug: Hugs. Sorry you had such a rough day!  :grouphug:

 

DD is at that difficult age. One day they know how to do it, the next they appear to have never heard of the concept, as pre-teen hormones ate their brain.  :eek:

 

Also, she sounds like a full-blown visual-spatial learner: whole-to-parts, random, concrete (in contrast to parts-to-whole, sequential, abstract). Which means things like abstract math (pre-algebra/algebra), and sequential outlines for writing are the very opposite of her strengths and how her brain processes.

 

Writing: she sure sounds like a whole-to-parts thinker, so writing first and organizing second is going to be the way she thinks. Awesome that she has great sentences and thoughts when allowed to write on her own! However, outlines are a parts-to-whole way of thinking and she may absolutely be clueless as to how to think in those terms. You may want to look into something like Inspiration software that would allow her to get her thoughts out there and THEN organize via mind-mapping or visual graphic organizers -- which help connect with the "concrete" part of a VS learner's thinking.

 

Reading: co-op or book club? Again, this lets outside sources hold her feet to the fire. It's embarrassing to have not read the book when all your peers have… ;) Or, even better, do it aloud together, popcorn style ("you read a page, I read a page"), and discuss as you go. That redeems the reading from being a frustrating negative for both of you into a fun shared experience. And, it allows you to more closely watch her reading to see if there are any eye issues -- vision troubles, or tracking issues, that might require remediation through getting glasses or through vision therapy.

 

If you are really at your wits end: Outsourcing. The break would be great for both you and your DD, and the work would still get done. How about a local tutor to come in twice a week for the rest of the year for 3 hours -- an hour each for math, writing, and reading? Students often work harder for someone else right there in the room with them, and that allows you to be more in the role of cheerleader and mentor rather than the bad guy, a good tutor might see something LDs-wise that may be subtly present, or have fresh ideas for how to approach those topics...

 

 

BEST of luck in quickly finding something that restores the joy and resolves the troubles! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[Lori D.]

I think learning to put thoughts into coherent order is a long process.

 

It's also a process of editing, not of first writing. I wonder if you're not giving her enough opportunity to first dump random stuff that's all over the place. Many people write really disorganized, all over the place first drafts. Many need to use various mind mapping or other thought organizing methods to sort things out. Then come back to it ( the next day) and start pulling it apart & rebuilding.

 

if you (or she) types them up, you can actually physically cut the sentences out & start rearranging them.

 

 

Totally agree! My struggling writer (stealth dyslexia) did not really get a handle on this and start maturing in this process until late in high school. Everyone has a unique time table! :)

 

 

My advice: I'd stop writing as a subject till next Sep.

 

Stopping formal writing program could be a great idea, and let her flourish with informal writing -- writing stories, write a weekly blog, write up a "newspaper contribution" once a week -- one week a news article, another week a letter to the editor, another week an opinion piece, another week create some ads… whatever she would LIKE to write about and has IDEAS for writing about. All of it is great practice, and you can come at the writing more formally again next year, when you've had a few months to reassess what you both need...

 

Hugs! Lori D.

[Calm37]

Oh, I want to agree with the others that suggested stopping with writing as a separate subject for now. Your relationship at this age is way more important than your daughter "eeking out" a few sentences or paragraphs. 

 

I will admit I never found the right curriculum for writing. Nothing ever clicked with any of my kids. Now I have the hindsight to see why that was -- they are all great writers. Two of my daughters would even tell you that they are "writers." I just finished proofreading one of my son's college papers. He is actually scoring perfect grades on many of his papers this quarter. That is astounding to me as he could hardly write a 5 paragraph essay in high school.

 

They have all told me it was just impossible for them to write forced material for no reason and no readership. Loud sigh from the midwest. I tried, though.

 

Edited to add: I forgot that One Year Adventure Novel did click with my youngest. My oldest was doing it post high school and she entered in to the fun of that with writing forum/friends, webinars and summer workshop in KS.

 

But still no non-fiction from her...

[Alte Veste Academy]

When she writes on her own her ideas are all over the place but her sentences are excellent and word choice varied and well done. I could deal with needing to learn how to organize but most of the time when I want her to write I get a couple barely passable sentences and that's it.

 

I worry to some extent about programs with check lists like IEW. I don't want her so caught up in '3 adjectives' etc that she doesn't see a bigger picture in how to write. I don't know if that becomes an issue but it was something that worried me.

I also vote for taking a break for now, maybe restarting for the last couple of months of the school year.

 

I heartily second Inspiration software. The ability to turn a mind map into an outline at the click of a button was a game changer here. For real. No exaggeration. It is awesome!

 

It seems from what you wrote above that she needs more help with structure than style? You can change IEW rubrics to suit your needs, based on your concerns and the fact that she already makes good style choices. But just having a rubric helps to eliminate the deer in the headlights look. It is crystal clear what is being asked. Plus, my kids really like Mr. Pudewa a lot. He is funny.

 

With apathy and/or ADD as problems (I would guess ADD is responsible for the apathy), TWSS is tailor made for writing across the curriculum, so she could hand pick an area of interest to write about. However, it sounds like you need to remove emotion from the process, and sometimes (here at least) that means getting a teaching assist, removing myself from the process as much as possible, which TWSS will not do for you as well as a Student Writing Intensive, in which Mr. Pudewa does the teaching for you. In the past, I have used the video portion of SWI and then given my kids the same assignment but with their own independent content.

 

We tend to like programs that are step-by-step, clearly laid out, clear instructions, no nonsense.

This is IEW.

 

Also, if she isn't already, I would let her type.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Somehow you ended up with my daughter in your house!  She had a writing blog for about 3 months.  That convinced me that she actually knows how to write.  But she hates it.  So I've shelved it for now.  We'll pick it up when it is more important. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

They have all told me it was just impossible for them to write forced material for no reason and no readership.

I REALLY believe this.

[73349]

What was that book called (Judy Blume? or somebody)? Sixth Grade Can Really Kill You?

 

Here's my advice: Buy her a diary. Give her a few minutes of school time each day to write in it. Don't read it. Start a new school year in the fall with whatever curriculum you think she'll like.

 

I used to teach sixth-grade English. The best thing I did for those kids was make them write for 5-8 minutes a day. (Because it was school, I did collect papers  occasionally.) I gave prompts so that the time was mostly spent writing rather than thinking of something to write about; if your DD might have trouble with that, offer her a jar of questions. You might also give some scrap paper where she can organize a little first (not an outline, but maybe two or three main bullet points).

 

Yes, I also did writing instruction, but mostly in the second half of the year, when they had been writing every day for several months.

[Heather in VA]

Thank you all so much. I feel so much better now and you all have such great advice. We are definitely going to take a break. We both need it. I like the diary idea. She has mentioned wanting one in the past so I think after a break we'll start with that. Ultimately it sounds like IEW might be worth a shot. I am so much calmer just knowing we are going to take a break and relax. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

Sounds very familiar, I also have an 11 y.o. with ADD (great reader, behind in math) and a huge case of "I don't care" and "whatever".  I'm sad to say I gave up and signed her up for T4L last week. She got about 4 days out of five done.... which is a huge improvement.  I gave her this weeks assignments, she still hasn't started  :banghead:  but I'm holding out hope. 

 

We did IEW last year, DS learned a lot, DD was bored and hated it but she fessed up that it really helped her writing ability.  

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

Agree with the others, take a break til next September, then start her with IEW maybe, and give her a ton of positive feedback.  Writing is a very complex process.  If any one thing in that process is off it can be true torture to try and get anything down on paper.  Give both of you time to reset, then start again.  You might also look at something like Dragon Naturally Speaking paired with Inspiration Software to help her get her thoughts out fast enough and in a more organized fashion when you do start working on writing again.  Or maybe work with those software selections as a fun creative writing thing over the summer, with no real expectations of output, just fun stuff.  Use them for more structured writing in the Fall....

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just a note that my dd who was exactly like this turned around and is doing really really well this year now that she's 13.  So there's hope, y'all!  (But she still hates to write.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

Nothing to add, but :grouphug:

 

I've had those days.  Many times. 

 

 

[LindaOz]

I totally agree with just giving time and opportunities to write in an unstructured and informal way. I have my kids do free writing two days a week regardless of what other LA program we are working on at the time. I've done this for years. Some of my kids' best writing comes from these times where they get to just freely express their ideas in their own way, write stories, poems, letters, magazines, extra episodes of loved novels, etc. My current 12yo sometimes takes a short passage from a novel, copies it, then continues the story in her own way. In effect, she creates her own story starters. Sometimes I photocopy an illustration from a book we are reading and they use that as inspiration to write.

 

So, my advice would be to set a writing time, but don't structure it in any other way. And see where her pen takes her... :) .

[Heather in VA]

Thanks again everyone. We had a much better day today. We were both more relaxed. I talked to her about starting a diary and she seemed happy about the idea. We will try it in a couple of weeks. My college daughter comes home Thursday for a week and next week they are going skiing for a couple of days. So I figure the week after that we'll be back to a full schedule week and we can start then. Until then.... NO WRITING!!! YIPPEE!!

 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

Thanks again everyone. We had a much better day today. We were both more relaxed. I talked to her about starting a diary and she seemed happy about the idea. We will try it in a couple of weeks. My college daughter comes home Thursday for a week and next week they are going skiing for a couple of days. So I figure the week after that we'll be back to a full schedule week and we can start then. Until then.... NO WRITING!!! YIPPEE!!

You know it just occurred to me that for my ADDish kid, novelty reigns supreme. This means that almost everything works...until it doesn't... :lol: So maybe there is something to that? Making lane changes when burned out on one method? Mixing it up? Teaching in different ways, requiring different things at different times? Giving her lots of choice and freedom within your own framework?

 

I teach writing across the curriculum (with TWSS, WWE, WWS, etc.), and a lot of times that involves making the writing fade into the background. Interest in the writing takes a backseat to interest in the content, which is to say that we talk about what form might be best for conveying information about the content, how we might organize the content within that form, what we specifically want to emphasize about the content, what questions our audience might have about the content... Etc, etc, etc. And so the content moves the writing along. And the content changes often, according to whim, which helps with novelty, which helps with attention, which helps with attitude.

[Heather in VA]

Alte - you are so right... I find that things work and then suddenly we run smack into a wall. That is not my favorite feature of ADD :-).  I really appreciate your input. I'm going to give more thought to this. 

 

At least I feel like I have my feet under me again. 

[....]

Also, she sounds like a full-blown visual-spatial learner: whole-to-parts, random, concrete (in contrast to parts-to-whole, sequential, abstract). Which means things like abstract math (pre-algebra/algebra), and sequential outlines for writing are the very opposite of her strengths and how her brain processes.

 

Writing: she sure sounds like a whole-to-parts thinker, so writing first and organizing second is going to be the way she thinks. Awesome that she has great sentences and thoughts when allowed to write on her own! However, outlines are a parts-to-whole way of thinking and she may absolutely be clueless as to how to think in those terms. 

 

:iagree:   My oldest two are very much whole-to-parts learners and the best writing I've gotten out of them has been open-ended/no expectation assignments.  This week, my 7th grader wrote a 6 page paper on The Yearling.  All I said was, "Just write ANYTHING.  I mean, it can just be a paragraph about anything to do with the book you just read."  Two days later, she plopped down this finished masterpiece of literary analysis.   :tongue_smilie:  If I would've walked her through the writing step-by-step, it would've been a full-out mutiny.  I've realized over the last couple of years that my right-brained/kinesthetic learners perform much better with no structure.  Structure for them = frustration and boredom (and I have absolutely no idea why that is).

[redsquirrel]

How are you addressing her ADD? what support does she get? Does she see a therapist or take medication? Or is she coping on her own.

 

Those behaviors called 'apathy' etc are classic manifestation of ADD.

 

[Heather in VA]

She isn't currently on medication. We used meds in the past with mixed results. We tried several oral medications and while all of them helped her focus, she had horrible side effects like uncontrollable shaking, blinding headaches etc. So for about 2 years she was on a patch which didn't have the side effects but caused a very suppressed appetite and she ended up underweight. We had to get special approval from our insurance company for that medication and once the paperwork got all messed up so she was off it for about a month. There wasn't enough noticeable difference for her or for us in her school or her daily life to justify continuing it. We meet with her doctor every few months so I can talk to him about it again but at the moment I'm hesitant. 

[happycc]

Ok I have a daughter just like this... Last summer we used 4 Square...I broke it down in small chunks and we moved slowly for her. That has helped her immensely. Finally I placed her in a writing class with Attuneup. I am going to have her try out Writeguide now. 

 

Anything that takes the stress off me is better. I have found that a good relationship between us, the better we both do. So the things that make me tear my hair out, I let someone else deal with her. 

 

So for grammar, her older sisters does her FLL4 with her. Yes they do get frustrated a bit but at least it is not me losing it as she is most upset when I am frustrated. Not so much with her sisters.

 

Spelling-- I am doing Apples and Pears and loving it.

 

Vocabulary-was doing Vocabulary workshop, not working so we are doing vocabulary with moving beyond the page. That has been good for her. SHe likes the books and relating the words to the books. 

 

Writing---I outsource. 

 

Math-I do Math In Focus with her and that literally takes all day it seems but for Challenging Word Problems I have a Skype tutor for her. Anything to do with word problems, her skype tutor does it with her even the Math IN Focus ones. Mixing in words with math is a living hell for her. She also does JiJi math from the MIND INSTITUTE UC DAVIS which is a visual/spacial computer program with no talking (been perfect for her) independently. The charter school is also requiring Waggle and Lets Go Learn Math. This has been a math year for her!

 

Science- I let Zingy deal with it and Study Island and then we have a college student come in and do Education Exploration with her. 

 

History-Moving Beyond the Page and Story of the World-I can manage that. 

Handwriting-she can do that on her own. 

 

Typing-she can do that herself

 

 

 So outsource the stuff that makes you want to scream and writing is easy to outsource now with all the online options. Amy Tanaka at Attuneup is great with kids like her by the way. My daughters writing is improving I have noticed and she doesn't spend days on an essay writing about meaningless information. Her writing seems more organized and her word choice is improving. 

 

I think I have cried maybe twice this year and that is not bad at all. Usually it is nearly everyday or at least 3 times a week with either me or her crying. 

[AMJ]

Okay, I haven't read through the responses (came upon this thread searching for stuff on pre-algebra), but I figured I'd respond real quick.  I have a 13-year-old DD with ADD who isn't that fond of most of school work, including writing.  We used IEW last year and both kids liked it fine, but we had a few frustrations.  This year (our second year homeschooling after several years in private school) we switched to Michael Clay Thompson's (MCT) Language Arts program in order to have the different language arts stuff coordinated (the stuff IEW sells to cover different parts of Language Arts aren't coordinated with each other).  This program contains several different lines of study that work well together (grammar, spelling/word study, poetics, writing, an optional reading classics line).  While people are encouraged to do the "whole program", of course, you can simply buy just one and do that if that's all you need.

 

This year my two kids are working on the same level, and I chose the Grammar Town/Paragraph Town level.  I figured it might be a little on the easy side for my elder child, but it is spot on for my youngest, and I didn't want to overwhelm my kids with a change in curriculum plus a significant increase in difficulty.

 

From what I see in OP's post it seems to me that Paragraph Town just might help.  Our big take-away from this curriculum is the clear instruction on organization, both of sentences within paragraphs and paragraphs within a composition.  I find it a nice counterpoint to IEW -- Paragraph Town focuses more on structuring the ideas, while our time spent with IEW focused more on choice of words.  It could be we didn't work far enough in IEW to get to where they talked expository composition, but we worked a year on it.  Paragraph Town also was rather entertaining, using a story about a couple of ducks to present concepts.  The kids quite like it, and look forward to "writing class".

 

The next level after Paragraph Town in MCT's Language Arts program is Essay Voyage, and I plan on getting this next.

 

MCT's Language Arts program info can be found at http://www.rfwp.com/pages/michael-clay-thompson/. The Literature column is another set of books (not part of the LA curriculum set pictured in the chart) that are an optional add-on (we did, and the kids loved the books -- APM is Alice, Peter, & Mole, as in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Peter Pan, and The Wind in the Willows.).  I also picked up a copy of his Classics in the Classroom book and quite liked it (a book for the parent/teacher, not the kids), though this is by no means required.

[fluffybunny]

It sounds like IEW is your answer. Also read the books aloud to her. She will 'hear' how good writing sounds. My third tip is: teach her to touch type. These suggestions have made my ADHD and hfa son write well.

 

Once he types his essay igo over it and highlight errors and add suggested changes in red. We do that repeatedly, ever since he graduated from IEW (after two years of it).

[cintinative]

I would try IEW. If you buy from them directly they have a 100% money back guarantee with no time limit (including return shipping). You really can't lose.  A lot of people have found it was just the right thing for their kids. Personally we really like it here, and I love that if it ever doesn't work, I can return it.

[Heather in VA]

Thanks again to everyone.... I wanted to give everyone and update. We've had a good last week. Something interesting happened too. With all the recommendations I was checking out IEW and watching some of the sample videos on YouTube. I've used IEW before but it's been years and not with this child in mind so I wanted to look again. My daughter came and sat down next to me to watch. I didn't say anything and resisted the urge to ask her what she thought. She asked to watch another one. So we did. And another. Then she left without saying anything. Ok. One of the ones she watched was about the strong verbs. A couple hours later she comes back with a paper full of sentences and she starts reading them to me and asking me if they are strong verbs. (they were) Then she told me the 'guy in the video' was interesting and asked if we could buy videos with him. At this point I'm on the floor completely floored and trying not to cry happy tears. Honestly I have absolutely no idea if it's going to work but she WANTS to do it. I ordered it and she's already asked me twice if it's here yet. Just that she's looking forward to it is worth the price to me. When it comes we will take it slowly and let her determine the pace. I don't want to squelch her excitement. 

 

Cautiously optimistic..

 

[Lori D.]

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:  Yea! Saying nothing and letting her take the lead -- AWESOME smart  strategy, mama! :)

[Targhee]

She isn't currently on medication. We used meds in the past with mixed results. We tried several oral medications and while all of them helped her focus, she had horrible side effects like uncontrollable shaking, blinding headaches etc. So for about 2 years she was on a patch which didn't have the side effects but caused a very suppressed appetite and she ended up underweight. We had to get special approval from our insurance company for that medication and once the paperwork got all messed up so she was off it for about a month. There wasn't enough noticeable difference for her or for us in her school or her daily life to justify continuing it. We meet with her doctor every few months so I can talk to him about it again but at the moment I'm hesitant. 

 

Of course you don't want side-effects to out-weigh benefits, but I believe it is worth it trying different things! I have three AD/HD kids, my oldest girl ADD and incredibly intelligent but at the same time incredibly spacey and time-blind.  The meds that work for her are not the same as those that work for siblings.  We've had to adjust doses too.  And puberty throws things out of whack a little bit.  But the benefits, when the best medication was found, are so significant.

 

Our psychologist suggested ADHD is really executive function disorder.  And that is most evident in my oldest girl.  But research shows that intervention (meds AND systems) allows them to learn the executive functions better, so that later if their lagging areas of brain development reaches that of age peers, they already know these executive functions and are that much better off.  If they don't have intervention they simple can't learn the executive functions effectively and will have a much harder time ever learning them.