TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Oh, dear me. The mind. It boggles. I, uh, erm, <wanders off in mid-thought befuddled> You KNOW you want them. :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Under Texas law, it was the physician or midwife who was responsible for filing of birth certificates. Parents are responsible only if no midwife or physician was present at the birth. I do not see this as any form of abuse except on the midwife's part. Since she missed the 5 day period, uhm by about 18 years, she probably does not want to pay the fine or go before the licensing board. Oh, well that puts a new spin on it. Here, parents are responsible. If the midwife was responsible, she has a duty to rectify this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 But if we don't hear the judge say that why should we believe her? Obviously she is lying for...reasons. smh I never said anyone was lying. No judge has said or written anything. The end. She has Facebooked some stuff. Maybe she is lying. Maybe she is not. (I have no idea which one to hope for, given either situation sucks.) I need more than some FB or Tweet statement of some stranger to publicly shame anyone or call them abusive. This thread is 100% validating that NY times article. :( As far as getting her delayed BC... I have never said it is easy. I know from personal experience it is not easy and it is time consuming. If, IF she has: Doctor records Baptismal certificate An affidavit from grandparents. (I might suggest talking to a lawyer about its wording just to be sure it's accepted.) It is highly likely she can get her delayed BC. I'd be interested in knowing which document was turned down and why. Ftr "person of knowledge" does not mean they had to be present at the actual birth. It just means they have to have had reasonable accuracy of knowledge at the time. HSLDA offered to help her according to a previous post, but she hasn't taken them up on it? They also noted this is the first such case they have heard of in 30 years. If to be believed, that would certainly indicate this isn't some wide spread problem we need to rush to change laws wrt to home schooling to prevent. (And I am NOT a HSLDA bandwagon fan. The opposite actually.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflowerlady Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 For those of you who have never heard of parents who do this, I again suggest researching "ninja babies". The family I know IRL who have done this has children with various stages of documentation/ paperwork. Older kids have BC and such. Then they got into anti government and extreme religious thinking. They started having babies born at home and had unassisted births. So no medical records or midwife. No BC or SSN. Then with the youngest kids the mom was older and had some medical issues so some of the youngest were born in the hospital.I don't know what they did about that and what documents the parents got for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Wouldn't it be something if some of these grown-up ninja babies of religious nutcases found themselves involved in sex or drug trafficking, prostitution, or organized crime just because they really, really, really needed some cash to survive? Or died due to not having health insurance or even an identity, got lost in the paperwork or went unapproved for a procedure... the rest of the globe wouldn't be surprised. Why not? Because these are the risks of an undocumented life. One of the benefits of being born in the USA is that you are a CITIZEN. You have the rights of a citizen for the rest of your life, if someone will just go ahead and verify that you were indeed born here. What a thing to deny a person! It's not always about character, when desperate people take desperate measures. It's about survival. These religious nutcases are removing societal and civil protection from their children, effectively turning them into undocumented persons with a shadow existence right here in an industrialized nation. They are not all going to have sympathetic grandparents. Some of them are going to have to fight their way out and up, and anybody who thinks that might not, very likely, involve some serious danger, risk, and crime, is living in a dream world. We went over this topic/discussion when Michael Pearl (religious nutcase) first said to forego birth certificates for babies, and shared the little detail that his daughters did not have lawful marriage licenses. We noted that without legal status, a young "wife" is a live-in girlfriend (until the years go by that allow her to be classified as a common law wife, if she even lives in a state where that's still true) without legal protection for herself or her children. She is to be considered by her own people as that man's property, anyway, so what do they care if she has no rights? The rest of society doesn't consider her or her children to be property, but they can't recognize it as a marriage, either. Child support, property rights, health care, all affected. I agree with Farrar. If we wish our lifestyle as sane, academic type homeschoolers to survive, we are going to have to loudly and forcibly distance ourselves from the people using homeschooling as a mask for the evil they perpetrate upon their own children. But you know what? I don't think it will work for the long term. We may holler as loud as we like, but as more stories emerge of abused, neglected, and marginalized children, we will lose our rights one by one. The nation is not in an independent-minded mood right now. Legislation and government solutions, at all levels, are seen as more effective and protective of children than depending on families to do the right things. Right or wrong, that's a sea change, and we should be paying attention. Not to mention the new fascination with data collection and lifelong tracking for children, which are a lot harder to enforce on homeschooled families. But once these things are the norm for over 95% of the nation's kids, it will be seen as unacceptable for anyone not to be in the system. We're in a grace period while the bugs are being worked out, IMO. Homeschooling has only been legal since the 80s. I will be astounded if it's still allowed, in the form that we know it, in just a few more years. I'm not a tinfoil hat person (anymore) or afraid of the government. If the time comes that we have to choose between enrolling kids in public school or standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of the Penningtons and Pearls, I will hold my nose and join the PTA. And that's a sea change for me. In the past I would have stood with almost anyone who wants to claim a right to homeschool, as long as the kids of my fellow warriors were safe. But they aren't always safe, are they. The religious nutcases have gone too far. There are non-homeschooling nut cases also, and they enroll their kids in public school. Are you standing with them if you do the same? Or are you just doing what is best for your own family? As a pastor I know used to say (about something else, but it fits here): "I'd rather have a little wildfire than no fire at all." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Tranquil Mind, I don't even begin to comprehend what that pastor is saying. Honestly, I have no clue what it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 For those of you who have never heard of parents who do this, I again suggest researching "ninja babies". The family I know IRL who have done this has children with various stages of documentation/ paperwork. Older kids have BC and such. Then they got into anti government and extreme religious thinking. They started having babies born at home and had unassisted births. So no medical records or midwife. No BC or SSN. Then with the youngest kids the mom was older and had some medical issues so some of the youngest were born in the hospital.I don't know what they did about that and what documents the parents got for them. This is all new to me, and I'm OLD and have already raised a large percentage of the kids in this house (all of whom have all appropriate ID). Homebirthed, and knew a lot who did, ALL of whom got birth certificates and all of the appropriate documentation. I really never knew that anyone thought it was a good idea not to get any identification. You learn something new every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yes, they do. Like in the military, you respect the rank, if not the person. Uh no. Families are not akin to the military. There are absolutely parents who do not deserve their children's respect. My husband's body carries physical scars from his dad. My husband loved his dad, forgave his dad but no, he didn't respect him as a model of manhood or fatherhood. He had no moral obligation to his dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 For those of you who have never heard of parents who do this, I again suggest researching "ninja babies". The family I know IRL who have done this has children with various stages of documentation/ paperwork. Older kids have BC and such. Then they got into anti government and extreme religious thinking. They started having babies born at home and had unassisted births. So no medical records or midwife. No BC or SSN. Then with the youngest kids the mom was older and had some medical issues so some of the youngest were born in the hospital.I don't know what they did about that and what documents the parents got for them. This is all new to me, and I'm OLD and have already raised a large percentage of the kids in this house (all of whom have all appropriate ID). Homebirthed, and knew a lot who did, ALL of whom got birth certificates and all of the appropriate documentation. I really never knew that anyone thought it was a good idea not to get any identification. You learn something new every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Uh no. Families are not akin to the military. There are absolutely parents who do not deserve their children's respect. My husband's body carries physical scars from his dad. My husband loved his dad, forgave his dad but no, he didn't respect him as a model of manhood or fatherhood. He had no moral obligation to his dad. Respect as a model, in that situation, is completely understandable. But he is his father and there is always a moral obligation there, whether recognized or discarded. But I won't hijack this thread. I am sorry he experienced that. Many people just should not have children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That is a LOT of paperwork for all of them. It doesn't work like that in oklahoma or texas. I can't just change our entire family name. I have to change the name of each person in the family at the time of the name change. It's time consuming, you have to see a judge, it s a big huge PITA. That doesn't make any sense either.... Weird. That is where the lies come in from HER. The parents cannot legally just do a name change for then entire family. She would have had to have signed off on it. In one place I saw where she said she changed her name, and in another where she says the parents changed her name. Regardless, she said she had a copy of the paperwork from that. I am unsure how anyone would do a legal name change without a name in the first place. But I do know her parents cannot sign anything to change the name of an entire family in one fell swoop in Texas...and especially not for any child who is 19 yrs old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I didn't realize the Peals advocate no SSN for kids. What is their reasoning?? What??? Really? Hard to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think the young lady is playing people and the media is jumping on it because it makes a great anti-homeschool story. Even if she didn't intend it, it will certainly be used by certain elements to advocate more control over everyone's family. Everything is used that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 TranquilMind, on 13 Feb 2015 - 2:08 PM, said:In the mom's posted (archived) blog post, she said the other kids DO have documentation. Hard to tell whom to believe here. alecia contacted the state vital records office. IF (BIG IF) she had a bc - the original would have been on file, and she could have gotten a copy *without* her parents approval or help. she received a certified letter in return FROM THE STATE that she had NO bc on file with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 In our case, I talked about stuff going on with our daughter in the months preceding her leaving. Then she moved in with "grandparents" who were not even her real grandparents, but rather birth grandparents. Currently, in a little update, she has been using drugs now and getting drunk. We got some lovely texts from her the other day where she was obviously drunk. They were not mean texts, but they were obviously the rambling of someone who was under the influence. She is now couch surfing because my birthparents got tired of her. But not before exposing her to the world of drug abuse. They still let her stay there some nights I have been told, but she mostly just couch surfs. Thing is, we had arranged previously for her to return to college in January. We had put the money down and arranged the dorm and everything. I posted how she did not want a job. She felt she was too good for minimum wage. She got fired days before she left. We tried to contact her, she refused any contact. She contacted her brother wanting him to steal stuff from our home, but not her own personal stuff. Stuff, basically, that she could sell. She did not want clothes or such. She said her "new family" had purchased her all new stuff so she did not have needs there. BUT, we did try to reach out to her to see if she still wanted to go to college in January. Despite having left December 15, she claimed in January that she is prevented from going to college or having a job because we committed "identity theft" and stole her ID. Ok..the birth grandparents live on the same street as the DMV, just a few blocks down the road. She could walk there. Her public high school she attended, if she needed anything, is down the street the other direction, a place she could walk to. That is much further away, about a mile. The church she was baptized at and they know her at is right by the high school, she would pass it on the way to the high school. IF she wanted these documents, she can get them. PLUS, we tried to offer to give her her clothes and such. She did have a huge habit of losing her license all the time. I do not know if it is even lost or if she just doesn't want to have to go to work or school. Freeloading seems to be suiting her just fine right now. IF she actually did leave her ID here, it would be in her stuff. She refused to answer our texts or emails asking if she wants her stuff. Her brother tried to ask her. Her other brother tried to call her. She told her older brother she wants nothing from here at all. She refused to take a call from her younger brother. But regardless, if the government has copies of this stuff and she is a grown adult, she can get it herself. This slamming video the girl made never mentioned her even trying to contact the state to see if there was a birth certificate. And I doubt the family has skipped out on using her as a deduction on the taxes all these years. There has to be a SSN then. You can order all these things online if you want. I think this girl sounds to me like she wants to lash out at her parents. I am not saying her parents are me. But the siblings could not have enrolled in college without some form of ID or vaccination records or vaccination exemptions or social security or other id numbers. Despite my daughter's refusal to even take our offers to help, I called the DMV and looked up how to get a new license. It is not complicated at all. I sent her a link from online. But she would rather make excuses to get sympathy and money from others than just grow up and take responsibility. I wonder how long before this girl in this blog has a fundme page to support her "plight." Yes, it could definitely be in this vein as well. We just don't know. I'm sorry that you had all this trauma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 alecia contacted the state vital records office. IF (BIG IF) she had a bc - the original would have been on file, and she could have gotten a copy *without* her parents approval or help. she received a certified letter in return FROM THE STATE that she had NO bc on file with them. Ok? Not arguing that. Just wondering if the siblings do indeed have documentation, as Mom claims, while Alecia does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yes, they do. Like in the military, you respect the rank, if not the person. We will probably not agree on what "respect" looks like. IMO, this girl has done nothing disrespectful. I understand that you might disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Respect as a model, in that situation, is completely understandable. But he is his father and there is always a moral obligation there, whether recognized or discarded. But I won't hijack this thread. I am sorry he experienced that. Many people just should not have children. Child abuse is far from rare. My husband grew up in a "nice" home with well educated and professional parents. There are many parents who have abdicated their responsibilities as parents, and with that, their claim to any respect due from their children. When you lose respect and trust, which most children do have for their parents, it's hard to earn it back and it is something that is earned, not owed. My husband says he used to respect that his dad as a doctor but then he realized that he couldn't even respect that because his dad was seeing his patients hung over basically every single day and that couldn't have resulted in the best possible care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 We will probably not agree on what "respect" looks like. IMO, this girl has done nothing disrespectful. I understand that you might disagree. And I might agree. I don't know WHAT went on in their home, and neither do you. So I don't have enough information to make a judgment. I will say, practically speaking, life will be easier for her if she cooperates with her parents enough to get her birth certificate. Sometimes you just have to be practical. Refusing to even speak, email, or text your parents is just ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elisabet1 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I never said anyone was lying. No judge has said or written anything. The end. She has Facebooked some stuff. Maybe she is lying. Maybe she is not. (I have no idea which one to hope for, given either situation sucks.) I need more than some FB or Tweet statement of some stranger to publicly shame anyone or call them abusive. This thread is 100% validating that NY times article. :( As far as getting her delayed BC... I have never said it is easy. I know from personal experience it is not easy and it is time consuming. If, IF she has: Doctor records Baptismal certificate An affidavit from grandparents. (I might suggest talking to a lawyer about its wording just to be sure it's accepted.) It is highly likely she can get her delayed BC. I'd be interested in knowing which document was turned down and why. Ftr "person of knowledge" does not mean they had to be present at the actual birth. It just means they have to have had reasonable accuracy of knowledge at the time. HSLDA offered to help her according to a previous post, but she hasn't taken them up on it? They also noted this is the first such case they have heard of in 30 years. If to be believed, that would certainly indicate this isn't some wide spread problem we need to rush to change laws wrt to home schooling to prevent. (And I am NOT a HSLDA bandwagon fan. The opposite actually.) She also never indicated that she spoke to her parents. AND, she has only personally said they did not have a birth certificate for her. For all we know, this is just a campaign on behalf of the grandparents to attack the family. Grandparents attacking an intact functioning family, and trying to use the grandkids to do it, is way way more common that what is being proposed here by the girl. I am also curious about the date on this letter than has never been shown, where she claims the Bureau of Vital Statistics managed to receive her request for birth records, and review them, and do all these searches, and send back letter saying they couldn't find anything...dated a mere 7 days (5 business days) after she left her parents house. Even if she sent in her request the day she left, that would have given the government 5 business days to process and respond in a written letter. Has anyone even seen a copy of that letter? Regardless of the birth certification...the girl just keeps saying she doesn't have one. But she never mentioned asking her parents for one. Why not? And I have seen nothing "unstable" about anything the mother said on her blog about the girl leaving (I have not read the whole blog, just the portions printed in articles). If your child suddenly up and left like that, you would be heart broken too. No evidence at all has been presented that these parents did anything at all to their daughter. Just a daughter going on to youtube, with the encouragement of grandparents, to make a video to trash on her parents and spread across the world. AND..she refused help from HSLDA in the past? She can make a video to trash on her parents world wide..but she cannot even pick up a phone and speak to them? I think her actions say a lot about HER, not her parents. How we behave is a reflection of ourselves, not the people we attack. And all we have seen is her attacking her parents, with no evidence. Just something written up documenting what she has done to get a license. Funny thing is..she never documents trying to speak or contact her parents even once. She seems to just want to scream at the world ...look at my parents, aren't they bad? ..but she doesn't seem terribly interested in just asking her parents for anything. Strikes me as she is more interested in the fight than the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 And I might agree. I don't know WHAT went on in their home, and neither do you. So I don't have enough information to make a judgment. I will say, practically speaking, life will be easier for her if she cooperates with her parents enough to get her birth certificate. Sometimes you just have to be practical. Refusing to even speak, email, or text your parents is just ridiculous. This isn't something she has done, though. Her own mother put it out there in writing that they have met with her. The problem is she will not move home so they haven't been helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 She also never indicated that she spoke to her parents. AND, she has only personally said they did not have a birth certificate for her. For all we know, this is just a campaign on behalf of the grandparents to attack the family. Grandparents attacking an intact functioning family, and trying to use the grandkids to do it, is way way more common that what is being proposed here by the girl. I am also curious about the date on this letter than has never been shown, where she claims the Bureau of Vital Statistics managed to receive her request for birth records, and review them, and do all these searches, and send back letter saying they couldn't find anything...dated a mere 7 days (5 business days) after she left her parents house. Even if she sent in her request the day she left, that would have given the government 5 business days to process and respond in a written letter. Has anyone even seen a copy of that letter? Regardless of the birth certification...the girl just keeps saying she doesn't have one. But she never mentioned asking her parents for one. Why not? And I have seen nothing "unstable" about anything the mother said on her blog about the girl leaving (I have not read the whole blog, just the portions printed in articles). If your child suddenly up and left like that, you would be heart broken too. No evidence at all has been presented that these parents did anything at all to their daughter. Just a daughter going on to youtube, with the encouragement of grandparents, to make a video to trash on her parents and spread across the world. AND..she refused help from HSLDA in the past? She can make a video to trash on her parents world wide..but she cannot even pick up a phone and speak to them? I think her actions say a lot about HER, not her parents. How we behave is a reflection of ourselves, not the people we attack. And all we have seen is her attacking her parents, with no evidence. Just something written up documenting what she has done to get a license. Funny thing is..she never documents trying to speak or contact her parents even once. She seems to just want to scream at the world ...look at my parents, aren't they bad? ..but she doesn't seem terribly interested in just asking her parents for anything. Strikes me as she is more interested in the fight than the results. The bolded is wrong. The mother put it in her blog that they had met with her. The mother also admitted she had never seen her birth certificate and only assumed the midwife filed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 TranquilMind, on 13 Feb 2015 - 2:38 PM, said:TranquilMind, on 13 Feb 2015 - 2:38 PM, said: Ok? Not arguing that. Just wondering if the siblings do indeed have documentation, as Mom claims, while Alecia does not. have you read any of the siblings letters? they, themselves, have stated they DO NOT have ssns OR bcs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 This isn't something she has done, though. Her own mother put it out there in writing that they have met with her. The problem is she will not move home so they haven't been helping. The mom also stated that she refused any kind of contact via those means. You are assuming the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 have you read any of the siblings letters? they, themselves, have stated they DO NOT have ssns OR bcs. Where are the sibling letters? I did not see those. I have not been on the facebook page, if that is what you mean? Mom said they did in her blog post. So if she is lying, well, there goes all of her credibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I believe I'll be moving on from this thread. I'm not taking another buggy ride on these boards, trying to travel along the circular reasoning path with apologists for bad parents...I think I'll just be glad of the profitable discussion that went before and call it a day. :hat: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieSong Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I know people do some really crazy stuff, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around not getting birth certificates for your kids. Eventually they will need them to get SSNs and jobs, right? I imagine that Alecia's parents probably have their own birth certificates and SSNs. What are the kids supposed to do? Live totally off the grid in the wilderness and hunt for food? Or what? I hope it all works out well for Alecia..and for her family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoHomeschooler Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 She also never indicated that she spoke to her parents. AND, she has only personally said they did not have a birth certificate for her. For all we know, this is just a campaign on behalf of the grandparents to attack the family. Grandparents attacking an intact functioning family, and trying to use the grandkids to do it, is way way more common that what is being proposed here by the girl. I am also curious about the date on this letter than has never been shown, where she claims the Bureau of Vital Statistics managed to receive her request for birth records, and review them, and do all these searches, and send back letter saying they couldn't find anything...dated a mere 7 days (5 business days) after she left her parents house. Even if she sent in her request the day she left, that would have given the government 5 business days to process and respond in a written letter. Has anyone even seen a copy of that letter? Regardless of the birth certification...the girl just keeps saying she doesn't have one. But she never mentioned asking her parents for one. Why not? And I have seen nothing "unstable" about anything the mother said on her blog about the girl leaving (I have not read the whole blog, just the portions printed in articles). If your child suddenly up and left like that, you would be heart broken too. No evidence at all has been presented that these parents did anything at all to their daughter. Just a daughter going on to youtube, with the encouragement of grandparents, to make a video to trash on her parents and spread across the world. AND..she refused help from HSLDA in the past? She can make a video to trash on her parents world wide..but she cannot even pick up a phone and speak to them? I think her actions say a lot about HER, not her parents. How we behave is a reflection of ourselves, not the people we attack. And all we have seen is her attacking her parents, with no evidence. Just something written up documenting what she has done to get a license. Funny thing is..she never documents trying to speak or contact her parents even once. She seems to just want to scream at the world ...look at my parents, aren't they bad? ..but she doesn't seem terribly interested in just asking her parents for anything. Strikes me as she is more interested in the fight than the results. It strikes me that you are projecting your own families dysfunction onto this family, and it is causing you to be extremely short sighted. In your case, all we have is your word about the behavior of your daughter and her grandparents, and yet you want the benefit of the doubt that your perception of events is the only true and right one. The least you could do is extend that benefit to this young lady. Your failure to do so, along with your persistence in maintaining that she is a liar and nothing could possibly be as she has stated, offers incredibly large cues into the dysfunction of your own family. I now find myself sympathizing with your daughter, as this obviously is hitting close to home for you. I trust that this young woman is speaking enough truth to warrant the support she is receiving. Her own parents and siblings have validated her claims. I'm not sure why there seems to be persistent "arguments" offered to refute Alecia's claims, as those claims are not disputed by the people involved! How bizarre. Admittedly, I have had a few laughs about how easy it is to obtain the necessary paperwork in a border state that has serious issues with illegal immigration. How odd that they may have increased the number of hoops a person has to jump through in order to prove their identity and citizenship. :eyeroll But, no, Alecia must be lying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The comparisons to the public shaming article are... interesting to me. I read that article too. But a lot of what I took from it was about how we publically shame people for single bad decisions or offhand comments that go viral and that it is just as damaging and horrible as some of the old public shaming practices centuries ago. However, this isn't a single bad decision. These parents basically have a plan for controlling their kids into adulthood that includes keeping hold of their information. And through publicizing it, this girl has managed (hopefully, once the affidavit comes through) to break free and determine her own path in life. I just don't see it in the same light. It's so different. In the examples in the article, the only people who were harmed by the actions of the people being currently shamed were people who were offended. Like Justine Sacco said a bunch of offensive stuff and maybe she deserved to be fired (or not), but did she *hurt* anyone? Did her comments actually help spread AIDS? Did she increase racist violence? Nope. She just said some dumb stuff. This family was actually preventing this daughter from voting, from getting gainful employment, from ever leaving the country. (And before we start going in circles again... they were. There was no birth certificate - the siblings confirm that and the parents basically did as well - the siblings who have gotten jobs and DL's live at home and have been helped by the parents to do so - the judge told her she needed the affidavit from the parents that she existed and they initially refused to give that to her. By their own admission. They've now thankfully changed course.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I haven't read it yet, but here is an article that interviews the grandfather: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952933/Grandfather-girl-doesn-t-exist-reveals-rescued-turned-18-grid-Christian-parents-nenver-registered-birth.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Where are the sibling letters? I did not see those. I have not been on the facebook page, if that is what you mean? Mom said they did in her blog post. So if she is lying, well, there goes all of her credibility. The links are in previous posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The comparisons to the public shaming article are... interesting to me. I read that article too. But a lot of what I took from it was about how we publically shame people for single bad decisions or offhand comments that go viral and that it is just as damaging and horrible as some of the old public shaming practices centuries ago. However, this isn't a single bad decision. No it is not just about a single bad decision. In fact, it's not about a bad anything. It's about large numbers of people jumping to conclusions and character assassinations and ruining lives based on nothing more than some person saying something about another person on FB or tweeter or youtube. No facts, no evidence. Just this person said ____ and everyone else starts screaming for heads to roll based on that. There's no context, no evidence, no court deliberated decision. It's insane and scary to think families and livelihoods are ruined over so little and so many people who normally pride themselves on logic and thinking and modern sense of justice have no qualms about it at all. And would jump all over people who do and accuse them of making excuses for abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Saying the parents should give her what she needs to obtain a bc and ss on a message board hardly qualifies as ruining lives or screaming for heads to roll. I haven't seen any of that in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflowerlady Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I haven't read it yet, but here is an article that interviews the grandfather: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952933/Grandfather-girl-doesn-t-exist-reveals-rescued-turned-18-grid-Christian-parents-nenver-registered-birth.html Thanks for posting this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Okay, I read the article with the grandfather, and it has this at the end: Among the documents she has managed to collect are a statement from a doctor who said he saw her when she was aged 9, a 2005 statement of Baptism from the Fredericksburg Christian Fellowship that does not give a date of birth, and a notarized document concerning the family's change of their last name from Sublett to Pennington from 2014. The baptismal certificate is exactly what I was guessing she was having problems with, because I suspected that, if they didn't get SSNs or birth certificates, they would also not get a baptismal certificate that was legally helpful. A Catholic baptismal certificate, for instance, is generally recognized as a good supporting document, because it includes all of the pertinent information, witnesses are required, the priest signs and verifies it as an official document, and it is kept on public record. A baptismal certificate that does not give a date of birth is a keepsake, not a legal document. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That's just silly. I can't imagine anyone would believe that actively refusing to get a birth certificate somehow means your child is beyond the reach of police powers of the state. These aren't people who generally have both oars in the water. I suspect that a lot of them are on the sovereign citizen side of crazy as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dulce Domem Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I haven't read it yet, but here is an article that interviews the grandfather: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952933/Grandfather-girl-doesn-t-exist-reveals-rescued-turned-18-grid-Christian-parents-nenver-registered-birth.html So here's something I've wondered about - but wasn't positive since the mother took the blog down & I couldn't go back to double check. Weren't one or more of the younger siblings adopted? From the picture in this article of the father with the children, one of the kids is obviously a different ethnicity/race. Wouldn't that child have a birth certificate? How do you keep that off the grid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 The links are in previous posts. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 No it is not just about a single bad decision. In fact, it's not about a bad anything. It's about large numbers of people jumping to conclusions and character assassinations and ruining lives based on nothing more than some person saying something about another person on FB or tweeter or youtube. No facts, no evidence. Just this person said ____ and everyone else starts screaming for heads to roll based on that. There's no context, no evidence, no court deliberated decision. It's insane and scary to think families and livelihoods are ruined over so little and so many people who normally pride themselves on logic and thinking and modern sense of justice have no qualms about it at all. And would jump all over people who do and accuse them of making excuses for abuse. I know! It is crazy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 No it is not just about a single bad decision. In fact, it's not about a bad anything. It's about large numbers of people jumping to conclusions and character assassinations and ruining lives based on nothing more than some person saying something about another person on FB or tweeter or youtube. No facts, no evidence. Just this person said ____ and everyone else starts screaming for heads to roll based on that. There's no context, no evidence, no court deliberated decision. It's insane and scary to think families and livelihoods are ruined over so little and so many people who normally pride themselves on logic and thinking and modern sense of justice have no qualms about it at all. And would jump all over people who do and accuse them of making excuses for abuse. I know others have said this as well, and I'll say it for myself again: most of my conclusions are based on what the mother herself posted in her blog. She tossed out lots of information on her parenting style and beliefs long before this event even occurred. I don't think she's controlling and emotionally immature based on what her daughter says; I think she's controlling and emotionally immature based on what she says. My personal sense of justice would be satisfied by the parents handing over any documentations or affidavits Alecia needs, without further negotiation. No beheadings required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 This is from Snopes: One of Pennington's siblings commented on a post made to her Facebook page and claimed "[t]he reason why Alecia is having so much trouble is that she is unwilling to have any kind of relationship with my parents and meet with them to work this out." I don't remember if anyone posted a link to the original post, and I haven't the energy to track it down, but Snopes is usually reliable. This comment indicates that the parents are indeed intentionally withholding stuff in order to force her into meeting with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I haven't read it yet, but here is an article that interviews the grandfather: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952933/Grandfather-girl-doesn-t-exist-reveals-rescued-turned-18-grid-Christian-parents-nenver-registered-birth.html The only problem I have with this is that this British paper says that she "cannot become a citizen". Well, no. She cannot prove she is a citizen without the birth certificate but she is a citizen because she was born in the United States. I know - small quibble but I'm making it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 No it is not just about a single bad decision. In fact, it's not about a bad anything. It's about large numbers of people jumping to conclusions and character assassinations and ruining lives based on nothing more than some person saying something about another person on FB or tweeter or youtube. No facts, no evidence. Just this person said ____ and everyone else starts screaming for heads to roll based on that. There's no context, no evidence, no court deliberated decision. It's insane and scary to think families and livelihoods are ruined over so little and so many people who normally pride themselves on logic and thinking and modern sense of justice have no qualms about it at all. And would jump all over people who do and accuse them of making excuses for abuse. What the parents and the siblings have said validate what Alecia has claimed. Her story holds water, and contrary to your repeated claims otherwise (with no supporting evidence I might add) her difficulty in getting a delayed BC is consistent with the rules set forth by Texas. While this issue isn't common, I have read about cases like this before where getting a delayed BC was extremely difficult. --If she was claiming she didn't have a birth certificate and the parents knew she did,they would say so. Instead, the mother babbled about she *thought* the midwife filed one, but she didn't know for sure. --If the parents were willing to sign the affidavit requested from the start,they would say so. Instead, they go on about what they would require from her (meeting with them and moving back home) which any sane adult agrees is not fair considering she has a right to her identity. --Now after the it hits the social media fan, the dad says why yes, they will sign. And you still question her story? smh And if these nuts lose their livelihood it will likely have more to do with them not paying taxes for years and years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 In the mom's posted (archived) blog post, she said the other kids DO have documentation. Hard to tell whom to believe here. ((the lack of multiquote is simultaneously killing me and driving up my post count)) Some of the other kids were able to get passports and licenses, because they toed the line and their parents helped them obtain what they needed. I have only seen reference to those documents, not birth certificates and not social security numbers. They can get by with those for now because they are still living at home. If anyone has seen anyone state that they have other documentation, please link it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 This is from Snopes: One of Pennington's siblings commented on a post made to her Facebook page and claimed "[t]he reason why Alecia is having so much trouble is that she is unwilling to have any kind of relationship with my parents and meet with them to work this out." I don't remember if anyone posted a link to the original post, and I haven't the energy to track it down, but Snopes is usually reliable. This comment indicates that the parents are indeed intentionally withholding stuff in order to force her into meeting with them. I read that post from her sister on the Facebook page. Even the mom said on her blog (before she scrubbed it) the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I don't know why anyone is arguing about any of this. A good parent would make sure an adult child had the documents required to go out and live an adult life. The parents could show how great they are by providing the documents. Do people really think there is any good reason to deny an adult child a birth certificate ? Too logical. Instead we are supposed to believe that Alecia made up this whole story (even though the parents never claim that) for...reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 ((the lack of multiquote is simultaneously killing me and driving up my post count)) Some of the other kids were able to get passports and licenses, because they toed the line and their parents helped them obtain what they needed. I have only seen reference to those documents, not birth certificates and not social security numbers. They can get by with those for now because they are still living at home. If anyone has seen anyone state that they have other documentation, please link it. The sister said on Alecia's Facebook that she got help in getting a license but did not want a birth certificate as it went against her religious beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 What religion is anti birth certificates? I'm pretty sure it's a political view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 ((the lack of multiquote is simultaneously killing me and driving up my post count)) Some of the other kids were able to get passports and licenses, because they toed the line and their parents helped them obtain what they needed. I have only seen reference to those documents, not birth certificates and not social security numbers. They can get by with those for now because they are still living at home. If anyone has seen anyone state that they have other documentation, please link it. I would like to know too. It seems like pretty important information to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 What religion is anti birth certificates? I'm pretty sure it's a political view. Suddenly I want to know if the Duggars have birth certificates. <random loosely-related pondering> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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