Conflicting nutritional information--ugh.

[Moxie]

I've been low carb for years (5ish?). I've read lots of books about low carb, Primal and Paleo and they are all full of studies and science speak that show how good they are.

 

Yesterday, I watched Forks Over Knives (all about eating a plant based diet) which says I'm killing myself and my kids with animal proteins. All backed up by studies and science speak.

 

I'm not easily rattled but this morning as I sat down with my ham and eggs, I felt worried. Am I giving my family cancer?? Wth are we supposed to eat???

[regentrude]

I like this article:

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating

 

which starts with the words:

 

 

We Americans suffer a national eating disorder: our unhealthy obsession with healthy eating.

 

Nice discussion about food myths.

This country is obsessed with weird restrictive diets, eliminations of entire food groups - instead of just eating a balanced diet without overthinking.

I like Pollan's advice: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

That's how people have eaten for centuries. The issues come from eating stuff that is not real food, and from a lack of moderation.

[Joanne]

For a significant part of the 90's, I was an ethical and health vegetarian.  Read VegSource for homeschooling AND the veggie info. Had a subscription to Vegetarian TImes. Was veggie through a whole pregnancy. I was a believer.

 

I then became pregnant with #3 while still nursing #1 and #2.

 

My body wanted STEAK. I tried nut butters, beans, quality protein.

 

My body wanted STEAK.

 

I ate steak - felt better immediately.

 

I don't "buy" the science behind "we are supposed to be vegetarians." But I do believe many individual bodies do every well on a veggie/nearly veggie diet. MY body is not one of them.

 

I am a believer in the science behind low carb/paleo. But I am not a believer in the extreme low carb - veggies and fruits unnecessary. There is simply too much nutrition in veggies and fruit that it is counter intuitive to me that we are not supposed to have it.

 

I also believe the history of nutritional info presented by low carb; it was very, very politicized.

 

So, finally, I think meat and lots of non starchy or low glycemic veggies with moderate fruit and moderate full fat dairy is probably optimal for many people.

 

[Katy]

NO, you are NOT giving your family cancer.

 

I'll try and find the link, but basically ANY studies on vegetarians in the west can be thrown out because people who are vegetarian make a myriad of other "healthy" choices that the general population does not.

 

If you look at studies from places like Thailand, where if you're  a buddhist you don't eat anything different or have a different lifestyle than the rest of the population, you just don't eat meat, there are NO differences between being a vegetarian or not.

 

Now you should avoid processed foods, sugar, hydrogenated fats and corn syrup.  You should avoid fortefied foods.  You should eat tons of produce and make sure you get at least a moderate amount of exercise.

 

ETA:  I can't seem to find the link to the study in Thailand, but I can tell you that basically inflammation was higher in vegetarians, which would trend towards needing more protein to stay healthier.  If you're interested in the most sciencey type of diet, you might look at a book called The Perfect Health Diet which is partially paleo but adds a little bit of gluten free carbs.  There are science references beyond belief, and it thouroughly debunks the need to be vegetarian with cold hard science.

[regentrude]

I then became pregnant with #3 while still nursing #1 and #2.

 

My body wanted STEAK. I tried nut butters, beans, quality protein.

 

My body wanted STEAK.

 

I ate steak - felt better immediately.

 

Good for listening to your body :-)

When I was pregnant and nursing, my body CRAVED vanilla ice cream. Which is funny because I never liked ice cream much before - but I had to have it and ate it form the carton with a big spoon, every night.

Once I had weaned my youngest, the craving abruptly disappeared and I stopped eating ice cream. I am firmly convinced that my body told me that it needed the extra calories and calcium.

 

BUT I also think this only works as long as the digestive system is not damaged through systematic overeating - after damage is done, it seems that these mechanisms of healthy self-regulating and intuitive eating are no longer functioning.

[fairfarmhand]

Read Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma.

[SparklyUnicorn]

If what you are doing is working for you, don't even listen to it.  Stop reading that stuff.  I stopped reading it.  It only made me crazy.

 

I do agree there is a lot of conflicting information. 

[fairfarmhand]

If what you are doing is working for you, don't even listen to it.  Stop reading that stuff.  I stopped reading it.  It only made me crazy.

 

I do agree there is a lot of conflicting information. 

 

Yup. I've stopped it mostly. I would read the lowest of low carb books and go "But I want an apple. Why can't I eat an apple? Will I ever be able to poop again without fruits and fiber?" and I'd read the vegetarian books and go "But, I will be starving and anemic. "

 

So I eat food that makes me feel healthy. I try to stick to the kinds of food my great-grandmother ate.

[regentrude]

 

If you look at studies from places like Thailand, where if you're  a buddhist you don't eat anything different or have a different lifestyle than the rest of the population, you just don't eat meat, there are NO differences between being a vegetarian or not.

 

I agree that Western vegetarians are typically more health conscious.

 

I am not sure, however, whether conclusions from a study that compares vegetarians and meat eaters in Thailand can be translated to the US, because meat portions elsewhere in the world are much smaller than in the US.

 

It is had to find meaningful numbers; the yearly per capita consumption of meat is 26 kg (57 lbs) in Thailand vs 200 + lbs in the US, but this would have to be weighted by the percentage of vegetarians to find out how much meat a meat eater eats in each country.

 

[Cakes]

It is very hard to sift through the 'research' because much of it is slanted to meet an agenda. Look into each study that you read and really try to anayize if they have stacked the deck to achieve a desired result.

 

I agree with and recommend a balanced approach. Daily diet that includes a wide variety of veggies, a serving or two of fruit, some whole grains, healthy fats, clean protein, and plenty of water.

 

More specifically:

Veggies - some cooked, some raw should make up about 50% of the volume that you eat.

Fruit - is great and tasty, some who are trying to lose weight or have blood sugar issues need to be careful.

Whole Grains - is brown rice, quinoa, oats, etc...real whole grains. Not processed 'whole' grains like cereal, crackers etc

Healthy Fats- EVOO, coconut oil, grass fed butter, avocado, raw nuts, olives, etc

Clean Protein - Organic free roaming meats, not farmed (that includes fish) I believe quality over quantity but our bodies do need protein to function optimally. While some vegetarians CAN make it work, most are missing the mark ( just like homeschoolers!)

Water - critical on many levels

 

What you want to avoid is anything processed, sugars etc.

 

Anything extreme is probably not going to last (or benefit you ) in the long run. I am hearing reports of extreme low carbers developing insulin resistance. We need carbs, just as we need protein and fat. We just don't want to run on processed carbs or carbs that cause insulin spikes over and over. That really is like running on caffeine, it is unhealthy.

 

Use the above outline and adjust it to suit you. If you are very active eat more grains and fruit, if you are more sedentary eat only 1 serving of grains and fruit. If you feel tired and are lacking energy eat more protein and fat. If you have blood sugar issues combine proteins and fats with high carb foods always. 

 

You have to adjust any diet to work for you.

[Rose in BC]

My Dr told me to go low carb high fat in June for six weeks. I asked him what happens after six weeks. He told me I'd love the plan so much I'd keep doing it. That is true. I've lost 37 pounds. But more importantly I like how I feel. (And all my blood numbers are stellar.)

 

I eat very low carb...averaging 30 - 50 g daily. But I eat veggies every day. Drink my red wine. Eat some dark chocolate. Eat berries and occasionally share an apple with my daughter.

 

I think the principle is excellent but every body has to tweak things for their own body.

[BooksandBoys]

If memory serves, Forks Over Knives is largely based on research known as "The China Study." There's a well researched analysis of that study by Denise Minger. Google her name and China Study if you'd like to better understand the research and feel less like you are killing yourself. :-)

[Liz CA]

It is more about the quality of the food you eat IMHO. This means (again IMO) that you can have steak but try to buy grass-fed. You can have eggs, just ask a local farmer if you can buy some eggs from his grazing hens.

 

The book "Nourishing Traditions" explains a lot of things, is not excluding entire food groups (they do warn not to consume too much sugar) and focuses on preparation techniques and quality of food instead what to cut out and what to eat.

 

You can also gauge how you are doing by your own health, how you feel after a meal, if your digestion is good or not.

[Melinda in VT]

I believe in human evolution. Different human populations have faced different environmental pressures and have evolved to meet them. For example, sickle cell anemia is the result of getting two copies of a genetic mutation that in its single-copy form protects against malaria.

 

Similarly, the ability to absorb lactose as an adult mammal provided an survival edge and soon swept through northern Europeans. I have a FB friend who likes to post articles about how bad milk is for us and how no one should drink it. Except I am descended almost exclusively from Angles and Saxons and Normans, and I tolerate lactose just fine.

 

It makes complete sense to me that people with different genetic backgrounds would differ in the diet that is healthiest for them.

 

I think the one thing that is probably universal is that processed food is not the historical diet of anyone.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yup. I've stopped it mostly. I would read the lowest of low carb books and go "But I want an apple. Why can't I eat an apple? Will I ever be able to poop again without fruits and fiber?" and I'd read the vegetarian books and go "But, I will be starving and anemic. "

 

So I eat food that makes me feel healthy. I try to stick to the kinds of food my great-grandmother ate.

 

I left a certain popular low carb group for this reason too.  The stuff people would say was so gosh darn crazy I just gave up. 

 

One of the books I read years ago I thought had a pretty good argument for low carb/high fat.  It was filled with studies, etc.  BUT then in true ridiculous form with these things there was some random "advice" thrown in with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.  No explanation.  For example, one should drink a zillion gallons of water a day according to the author (I'm exaggerating, but it was a lot).  I don't understand that advice at all.  There was nothing to explain it.  It doesn't make any sense.  I tried it and found I was constantly thirsty (and peeing).  Talk about odd.  Now I drink when I want to or need to.  And I'm not longer thirsty all the time. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

If memory serves, Forks Over Knives is largely based on research known as "The China Study." There's a well researched analysis of that study by Denise Minger. Google her name and China Study if you'd like to better understand the research and feel less like you are killing yourself. :-)

 

If I had to eat like the people in that study, I'd feel like killing myself. 

[Momof3littles]

So much of nutritional research is observational and full of confounding variables (income, access to healthcare, education, etc).  Past research has oversimplified so much of nutrition that it makes it fairly meaningless.  For example, how can we compare red meat to red meat, when that may lump a McDonald's burger in with grassfed beef with a more desirable omega profile? Are they really the same nutritionally?  There was a study a few years ago linking fat consumption in women to stroke risk (this was out of UNC), but the fat sources listed were processed baked goods, chips, cheetos, etc.  Sometimes a food rides along with another food choice (eta: do most people eat hamburgers and eggs by themselves?  For years studies of saturated fat lumped it all together and didn't tease out transfats).  Most of those who consume larger amounts of meat also make unhealthy choices like smoking.  Can we lump smokers who fan their noses at conventional dietary wisdom and eat a lot of fat and meat at a fast food place in with Paleo people who thumb their noses at conventional dietary advice and eat avocados, grassfed beef, and do Crossfit?  Kwim?  Most nutritional research is essentially meaningless because there are so many confounders, they ask people to self report, they are observational, etc.

[SparklyUnicorn]

So much of nutritional research is observational and full of confounding variables (income, access to healthcare, etc).  Past research has oversimplified so much of nutrition that it makes it fairly meaningless.  For example, how can we compare red meat to red meat, when that may lump a McDonald's burger in with grassfed beef with a more desirable omega profile? Are they really the same nutritionally?  There was a study a few years ago linking fat consumption in women to stroke risk (this was out of UNC), but the fat sources listed were processed baked goods, chips, cheetos, etc.  Sometimes a food rides along with another food choice.  Most of those who consume larger amounts of meat also make unhealthy choices like smoking.  Can we lump smokers who fan their noses at conventional dietary wisdom and eat a lot of fat and meat in with Paleo people who thumb their noses at conventional dietary advice and eat avocados, grassfed beef, and do Crossfit?  Kwim?  Most nutritional research is essentially meaningless because there are so many confounders, they ask people to self report, they are observational, etc.

 

That and self reporting.  Just asking people to write down what they do.  People forget, make stuff up, exaggerate, change their habits because they know they are being studied, etc.

[Katy]

If memory serves, Forks Over Knives is largely based on research known as "The China Study." There's a well researched analysis of that study by Denise Minger. Google her name and China Study if you'd like to better understand the research and feel less like you are killing yourself. :-)

 

Yes!  I was looking for her blog but couldn't remember her name.  Thanks!  Her blog was where I read about that study on buddhist vegetarians.  Here's that article:  http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/01/06/vegetarians-and-heart-disease/

 

 

And here's some others the OP might find interesting:

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

 

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-library/death-food-pyramid/

 

I was a vegetarian for many years after a bad case of food poisioning, and I think it did terrible things to my health, starting with not eating enough iodine causing thyroid issues, and not getting enough b12  (I have a genetic issue that makes that extremely bad, which I couldn't have known about at the time).   This is my take on diet information in general:  always check what their agenda is.  It's been ages since I watched Forks over Knives, but if I remember correctly in the case of that documentary, the agenda is animal rights.

 

There are some benefits to being a vegetarian, and if you have ethical issues with meat I think you should follow your conscience. You can buy humanely raised animal products, raise them yourself, or avoid them altogether if that's your choice.  But then there is a whole different level of vegetarian, and that is those who are doing it because they have a religious belief that all animal life is as valuable as all human life.   If that's what you believe, so be it.  But you should probably grow your own vegetables, because farmed ones are harvested with machines, and that kills millions of insects. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

What I wonder is how much nutritional value is left in vegetables by the time most of us get them/eat them. 

[whitestavern]

I think most of what's bad/unhealthy about animal proteins is what they are being fed (corn, antibiotics, growth hormones, etc).

 

I source local pastured animals to purchase in bulk (pork and beef) and will likely raise my own meat chickens this summer.

[LibraryLover]

I think different foods work for different folks. I think most people could benefit from leafy greens and other veggies. I think some people can handle a banana, and some people cannot. I know my low carbish eating works for me very well. I don't eat tons of meat, however. I might eat some sort of meat daily, but it's not a large portion, and it is mostly grass- fed.  I do allow myself 2 slices of pizza about once a week, and Chinese or Korean take -out another night. I love a veggie hot pot, sometimes with meat, mostly not. And copious amounts of kimchee. lol I stink, but its worth it.  I don't gain weight, and have kept weight off this way, and I do feel energetic most of the time. I do eat a fair amount of avocados, real eggs, and use olive oil, and coconut oil etc.

 

OTOH, my skinniest kid loves rice. She actually constantly eats, and she eats a lot of carbs (not in the form of junk. I don't buy junk food at all. No McD's, no Cheetos, no Doritos, soda or juice, and she won't spend her own money on it. She packs her own lunches from home for classes.) Her carbs are in sprouted corn tortillas, noodles etc She devours fruits of all sorts, as well as veggies, along with modest amounts of grass fed meats, salmon etc. She is healthy & energetic. She is also southeast Asian.  We're all different.

[Dory]

I've learned to listen to my body and I'm trying to teach the kids the same. Some weeks we have more meat and protein, some weeks we eat more veggies. My only thing that I stress is quality over quantity. If we are eating meat, I want to know it's grass-fed and properly raised. If we are eating veggies, I want to know they are pesticide free (I buy local whenever I can). I can, freeze, and dry a lot of our own veggies, fruits, spices, soups, and so on so that I know the quality, but I have no problem with buying from someone else if I need a break.

 

There have been months where we get busy and start eating more processed food and we all feel it. None of us do well. I think the thing that makes so many of these diets 'work' is that because they limit so much, they are also limiting much of the processed junk.

 

Everyone is different. My youngest we call our meat man. He eats meat like crazy. He is a HUGE protein lover. He goes through 2-4 eggs every day (he's 7). He LOVES his dairy products as well. Dd is my veggie and fruit lover. She loves her salad. She could eat an entire english cucumber on her own. Melons can disappear in no time. I buy 80lbs of apples every fall just to make sure she has enough for her munching (I dehydrate a bunch for her too and make applesauce for her to add to stuff). Ds 11 is much more balanced. He does have a bit of a simple carb addiction, but he is happy and seems to feel good with whatever is there. His favorite foods are chicken soup and veggie fried rice.

 

All of my kids are super skinny. Their height and their weight are not even close to being in the same percentile. They always tend to border on being underweight, but they are healthy and active.

[hornblower]

I believe in human evolution.

 

 

So do I.

 

What I get from that is that we're highly adaptable. We'll survive on almost anything.

 

We won't THRIVE on almost anything. But we'll survive long enough to reproduce which is evolutionary success.

 

I was vegetarian & now I'm vegan for 3 good reasons.

 

it's better for the environment

it's better for the animals

I believe there's tantalizing data that it's better for our health

 

Even if it's a wash healthwise & honestly, even if it was worse for me, I'd still do it for the other 2 reasons.

 

If you want to learn more about diet research http://nutritionfacts.org/

[mamaraby]

I was a vegetarian for many years after a bad case of food poisioning, and I think it did terrible things to my health, starting with not eating enough iodine causing thyroid issues, and not getting enough b12 (I have a genetic issue that makes that extremely bad, which I couldn't have known about at the time). This is my take on diet information in general: always check what their agenda is. It's been ages since I watched Forks over Knives, but if I remember correctly in the case of that documentary, the agenda is animal rights.

And Minger and Raw Food SOS don't have agendas? That's a bit....silly.

 

FOK's agenda isn't animal rights, it's plant based eating, with an emphasis on the Esselstyns, Campbell, and McDougall. Low in fat, more grains, lots of veggies, lower salt.

 

There are also vegans like Ginny Messina that focus on the ethical concerns and tend to be more moderate macro percentage-wise with some additional differencs in their macros.

 

Anybody can pull a bunch of studies and either selectively represent or misrepresent the data. The science behind low-carb isn't any more solid than the science behind any other way of eating. Particularly because, as other posters have mentioned, they often rely upon self-reporting and because the comparison isn't always precise. They either tend to compare slight variations of things that are generally the same or less than stellar examples of a particular diet. Like when studies on low-carb diets compare themselves to low-fat diets that aren't really low in fat or where the "low" fat diet and the control group are essentially the same. And vice versa.

 

Don't want to eat a vegan or vegetarian diet? Don't. One person's individual failure or struggles with a particular diet is an anecdotal, not a normative evaluation. Anytime my carb intake is reduced while my fat intake is increased (whether that be for a short time or a period of several months) I am nauseous. A great way to lose weight without all the eating, not a very fun way to live. Shall we all eat my way then?

 

I'll disagree with Pollan on a lot, but I can agree with him here - "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much." This right here sums up what the science says about nutrition. The rest is just window dressing. Organics...grass-fed...etc. It's a distraction from what's clear. Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much.

 

If you were to add in adherence, you've basically summed up everything we know about nutritional science. Whatever you do, you have to be able to stick with it over the long term. Paleo (serious issues with the science here - there is no one paleolithic diet) and low-carb are nothing but fad diets for me. I might lose weight, but it will never be sustainable for me. For someone else, it might be entirely different. They'd never be able to stick with a vegan diet for the rest of their life. That's ok.

 

The vast majority of people could make small changes to their existing diet and do just fine. Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much. Lots of ways to work this out individually without there being any one diet to rule them all.

[Peaceful Isle]

I feel the best when I eat organically. Expensive , yes, but it's how my body works. I've tried many different types of diets. Low carb, mostly plant based, slim fast, counting calories , etc..

 

What I try to focus on is this: eating real food and avoiding processed food. I also will hardly ever drink pop, or any type of sugar drink. I try to stay away from gmos, preservatives, hormones, pesticides, and the like.

 

I do cave every now again but I would say at least 90 percent of my diet is organic.

 

I don't lose weight eating this way, but I do feel the greatest, and that is what matters to me.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I'm another Pollan fan. Our evolutionary ancestors no doubt ate what was easiest to find. I suspect that was largely plants and seeds with the lucky egg or meat thrown in. What they didn't have were cakes, chips and fries BUT I bet they would have eaten them if they could! I try for 90% real food and 10% " junk". Our problem is a fake good environment and we are trying to control all those biological imperatives that calories are good.

[hornblower]

OP - hands down I'd worry more about

1. maintaining normal BMI
2. normal blood pressure & blood cholesterol levels
3. getting vigorous exercise regularly & frequently
4. eating lots of vegetables

If you're doing all 4, then I think the details of whether you have kale & rice or a chicken breast is less important. 

I also would point you to this: Why There's So Much Confusion Over Health & Nutrition http://lifehacker.com/why-theres-so-much-confusion-over-nutrition-and-fitness-1572870867

[poppy]

Yeah, veggies with a side of pesticides. Even "organic" unless I guess, you know where it grew and how it was handled.

 

What is it you think the animals you eat are fed?

[poppy]

I read somewhere that there is a high incidence of eating disorders among nutritionists.

It is an odd field full of passionately held, exactly opposite believes.  It's a very mushy and inexact science.

 

The only nutritionist I really follow Marion Nestle. http://www.foodpolitics.com/about/

Her dietary advice is mostly moderation and common sense.  But she is very conscious of various agenda at play, lobbying, politics, etc.  Fascinating stuff.

[SarahW]

So do I.

 

What I get from that is that we're highly adaptable. We'll survive on almost anything.

 

We won't THRIVE on almost anything. But we'll survive long enough to reproduce which is evolutionary success.

 

I was vegetarian & now I'm vegan for 3 good reasons.

 

it's better for the environment

it's better for the animals

I believe there's tantalizing data that it's better for our health

 

Even if it's a wash healthwise & honestly, even if it was worse for me, I'd still do it for the other 2 reasons.

 

If you want to learn more about diet research http://nutritionfacts.org/

 

 

The current American system of using fertile land to grow corn to feed to cattle polluting fertile land is idiotic, yes.

 

But if one isn't an idiot, and does things how the world has done things anytime before the last century or so, cattle is good for the planet.

 

If the Bedouin in Wadi Rum did not herd goats, what would they eat? Nothing. They would starve. And all that land would go to waste in the effort to provide calories to humans. So they raise goats. They trade some of the meat with tribes living in farming lands for vegetables. Presto, everyone now has more calories. And more nutrition. This is how it has always been for human civilization. Until America with too much fertile land in the heartland effed it up and started telling everyone else that they should be "advanced" like us.

 

It's also stupid for us to mistreat animals. Not only for ethical reasons, but also for health reasons. But that's why I have some cow in my freezer who lived a bucolic life in a field and was completely happy and calm until he died. The farmer told me that he was so serene at the abattoir that he probably didn't even realize that he died.

 

And grass-fed beef isn't a luxury. I can't roll my eyes hard enough at news articles that rank the paleo diet low because it is "too expensive." My chillin cow was less expensive per pound than supermarket beef. It took some extra effort to get it, but really, it wasn't that bad.

 

If you don't want to eat animals, fine. But really, the "bad for the environment" and "bad for animals" arguments are simply untrue for me.

 

And I think that veganism is healthier is just flat-out false. Anthropologists have been trying to find a vegetarian or vegan native culture, and there's no evidence of one. Sorry, but if no humans ever thought it was a good idea since the beginning of time, then no, I don't think any science will be found saying that it is quantitatively better than being an omnivore.

[Tsuga]

I was a vegetarian for years and I still believe that vegetarianism is better for the environment even if you eat only ethically raised, small-farm, local, organic meat. This, of course, does not take into account that I'm also a part of nature.

 

By that definition, of me against nature, it would also be better for the environment if I didn't commute to a job, or in fact, if my entire family died. So there's a balance to be struck there.

 

We are also fans of Pollan.

 

As a big family, it is expensive and hard to get enough local, organic, ethically raised or wild-caught meat and fish--but we do it. We work hard at it. I don't think we've eaten non-clearance, non-organic meat in a year, lol. We definitely eat less meat than others, and we also spend a LOT more on food than we would if we ate cheaper meat. We spend a ridiculous amount of money on organic, grass-fed butter and milk. But to us that is the right choice. It is the ethical choice.

 

I don't care if a cow dies--we're all going to die--but I don't want a cow to suffer just for me to get cheaper butter. I've seen cows on organic dairy farms and they aren't suffering. They certainly get more fresh air than I do!

 

So that's what we do. My philosophy is, be as kind as you can in the circle of life and be gentle with yourself and others.

[regentrude]

And grass-fed beef isn't a luxury. I can't roll my eyes hard enough at news articles that rank the paleo diet low because it is "too expensive." My chillin cow was less expensive per pound than supermarket beef. It took some extra effort to get it, but really, it wasn't that bad.

 

I am all for grass-fed beef, but I do not think yours is a fair comparison. Of course everything in bulk is chaper, and the more of the labor is done by the consumer, the cheaper it becomes.

 

Many of us do not wish to purchase an entire (or half) animal and store it in a freezer acquired and powered for this purpose.

Some of us wish to go to the store to buy specific cuts of meat when we need them - especially if we are not eating a whole lot of meat. I don't know what I'd do with an entire (or even half a) cow.

 

People have invented division of labor for a reason. I do not believe every consumer driving to the farmer to acquire food in bulk and then taking care of storing can be the ultimate solution, and from an environmental point of view that does not make much sense either.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am all for grass-fed beef, but I do not think yours is a fair comparison. Of course everything in bulk is chaper, and the more of the labor is done by the consumer, the cheaper it becomes.

 

Many of us do not wish to purchase an entire (or half) animal and store it in a freezer acquired and powered for this purpose.

Some of us wish to go to the store to buy specific cuts of meat when we need them - especially if we are not eating a whole lot of meat. I don't know what I'd do with an entire (or even half a) cow.

 

People have invented division of labor for a reason. I do not believe every consumer driving to the farmer to acquire food in bulk and then taking care of storing can be the ultimate solution, and from an environmental point of view that does not make much sense either.

 

Yes I cannot drive 2 hours to the nearest farm to purchase 10 tons of beef.  It would take me forever to get through that with my family of 4.  I really just want to go to the grocery store and buy reasonably sized packages of already cut up meat.  Plus we lose power sometimes (more than sometimes sometimes).  If I have a freezer filled with meat I can kiss that goodbye if the power does not get restored quickly.  So while I do have a small chest freezer, I do not go crazy because of that possibility. 

[hornblower]

"bad for the environment" and "bad for animals" arguments are simply untrue for me.

 

And I think that veganism is healthier is just flat-out false. Anthropologists have been trying to find a vegetarian or vegan native culture, and there's no evidence of one. Sorry, but if no humans ever thought it was a good idea since the beginning of time, then no, I don't think any science will be found saying that it is quantitatively better than being an omnivore.

 

No, cattle is not good for the planet. Unless you're a climate change denialist, it just isn't a question. Destruction of soils, cutting down of forests, methane - it's all bad.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/21/giving-up-beef-reduce-carbon-footprint-more-than-cars

 

& it's why people like Bill Gates are getting involved in the whole discussion of how we can re-imagine food production http://www.gatesnotes.com/About-Bill-Gates/Future-of-Food

 

I believe it's not good for animals because I don't believe any animal WANTS to be slaughtered. I don't believe any animal wants to be raised in a factory farm. I don't believe any male chick wants to hatch out of its egg & instead of getting to hide under his mama & peck on seed on the ground, be chucked alive into a meat grinder.

 

Vegan or vegetarian native culture is really moot. I'm not interested in what my ancestor ate as a plan for me now so anthropological finds are really not required.  I've already said that i believe our great evolutionary advantage has been adaptability, allowing us to survive in a variety of ecosystems and eating a variety of foods. Thus hominids could thrive eating nuts & seeds with eggs or small hunted game, or survive on fish, or whale.

 

As far as what we know now - the EPIC Oxford study & the 7th Day Adventist & several other long term studies are showing some differences.  You can check out some the data summaries (fully referenced to the studies. EPIC especially is very good about putting their stuff online) for disease rates and cancer rates

 

[regentrude]

 Plus we lose power sometimes (more than sometimes sometimes).  If I have a freezer filled with meat I can kiss that goodbye if the power does not get restored quickly.  So while I do have a small chest freezer, I do not go crazy because of that possibility. 

 

Same here. Plus, we travel every summer extensively. We eat up everything in the fridge and freezer before we leave and switch them off - if power goes out while we are gone, we have no way of knowing how long it stayed out.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I read somewhere that there is a high incidence of eating disorders among nutritionists.

It is an odd field full of passionately held, exactly opposite believes.  It's a very mushy and inexact science.

 

The only nutritionist I really follow Marion Nestle. http://www.foodpolitics.com/about/

Her dietary advice is mostly moderation and common sense.  But she is very conscious of various agenda at play, lobbying, politics, etc.  Fascinating stuff.

 

This does not surprise me really.  It's not unusual for chefs to have issues with food too.  I swear sometimes they go into food careers to they can get in bed with food.  LOL  Not everyone of course.

 

I really have done much better just avoiding the crazy books and articles I used to read. 

[hornblower]

. I've seen cows on organic dairy farms and they aren't suffering. They certainly get more fresh air than I do!

 

 

 

They do suffer & their babies suffer. The only way to keep cows lactating is to impregnate them annually. Baby calves are taken away, sometimes right at birth. Moms cry. Babies cry. The sad crying babies are sent to veal lots & or to feed lots. The sad crying moms are hooked up to milking machines. Getting go out in fresh air is nice though....

 

http://theseglasswalls.wordpress.com/whats-wrong-with-dairy/

 

There is a slaughter free dairy operation in the US, where the calves are not taken away & no cattle is sent to slaughter after it's 'spent' & where they only harvest the surplus milk (because dairy cows usually make more milk than the calf can drink) and they let the cows live out their natural lives (which is about 20 years).  But I only know of this one. There may be some other ones popping up but it would be extremely rare. In all other operations, the babies are taken away, and the moms are sent to slaughter way before the end of their natural life span because they no longer produce efficiently....

[SparklyUnicorn]

Grains, newspaper (hopefully not anymore), and more.

 

I was just replying to Sparkly about our vegetables. I'm totally aware there are issues with the food the animals eat...

 

 

Yeah I was mostly wondering what nutritional value is left after broccoli sits for 2 weeks.  KWIM?  I just wonder.  I'm all proud I'm eating the broccoli, but who knows maybe it's just fiber after that point.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I was thinking along the lines of once it is cooked, too. Like we cook out a lot of the nutrients.

 

 

Yeah I don't know.  I don't cook most veggies to death (much to the dismay of my husband who grew up eating them that way and apparently likes them that way), but you are right who knows.

 

I recently heard that microwaving broccoli kills the antioxidant properties of broccoli. Oops...I microwave broccoli often!  I started steaming it after I heard that.  But yet another thing to drive me crazy. 

 

I recently read that too much rice is bad because of arsenic. Brown being worse. 

 

Really there is no end to this "information". 

 

Really, I'd just like to eat. 

[Tsuga]

They do suffer & their babies suffer. The only way to keep cows lactating is to impregnate them annually. Baby calves are taken away, sometimes right at birth. Moms cry. Babies cry. The sad crying babies are sent to veal lots & or to feed lots. The sad crying moms are hooked up to milking machines. Getting go out in fresh air is nice though....

 

http://theseglasswalls.wordpress.com/whats-wrong-with-dairy/

 

There is a slaughter free dairy operation in the US, where the calves are not taken away & no cattle is sent to slaughter after it's 'spent' & where they only harvest the surplus milk (because dairy cows usually make more milk than the calf can drink) and they let the cows live out their natural lives (which is about 20 years).  But I only know of this one. There may be some other ones popping up but it would be extremely rare. In all other operations, the babies are taken away, and the moms are sent to slaughter way before the end of their natural life span because they no longer produce efficiently....

 

No animal wants to die. But we will all die.

 

Whether killing an animal is ever right is one question, but suffering is not the same as dying. Lots of animals eat other animals before the end of the victim's lifespan. The idea of a cow's "natural lifespan" to me is kind of silly--it's a domesticated animal and since its inception we have killed cows before the end of their lifespan to meet our own food and other needs.

 

And as for the separation of calves and mothers, why, I can think of three farms off the top of my head where babies are nursed for the first six weeks, then kept on the farm and are fed organic formula. All are adopting female-only insemination so that male cows are not slaughtered.

 

Yes, dairy cows are milked. However, that doesn't last all day. On the organic farms I've seen for extensive periods of time (i.e. visited regularly, as they were owned by friends), they were milked two or three times per day.

 

I'm not saying that if I could choose to be any animal, I'd choose to be a dairy cow.

 

But I'd rather be on one of those farms, than, say, a bunny in my neighborhood. They all get eaten by coyotes or cats long before the end of their lifespans and the cats tease them before they die and they don't even EAT the bunnies.

[SarahW]

Where did I say I drove 2 hours for a whole cow? Nowhere, because I didn't.

 

I brought up cost because most news articles say grass-fed meat it a "luxury." Most news articles are written by ignorant people.

 

If I want specific cuts of grass-fed meat I can drive 15 minutes and buy it. So.... :confused1:  Why try to imagine that this is more complicated for me than it is?

 

Hornblower, did you read what I wrote or the link I posted? There's no forests being cut down in Wadi Rum. LOL.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I heard the arsenic thing on this board and I was like WHAT?? Someone told me some is naturally occurring? So basically don't worry about a little?? Yeah, I was pretty weirded out about that but I still ate some rice this week. Seems like there is a problem with every food!

 

Yeah I don't know.  I don't love rice so that's not something that made me sad, but I do cook it sometimes so geesh.  And DH read it and he was so freaked he told me to stop buying him rice cakes.

[Dory]

No animal wants to die. But we will all die.

 

Whether killing an animal is ever right is one question, but suffering is not the same as dying. Lots of animals eat other animals before the end of the victim's lifespan. The idea of a cow's "natural lifespan" to me is kind of silly--it's a domesticated animal and since its inception we have killed cows before the end of their lifespan to meet our own food and other needs.

 

And as for the separation of calves and mothers, why, I can think of three farms off the top of my head where babies are nursed for the first six weeks, then kept on the farm and are fed organic formula. All are adopting female-only insemination so that male cows are not slaughtered.

 

Yes, dairy cows are milked. However, that doesn't last all day. On the organic farms I've seen for extensive periods of time (i.e. visited regularly, as they were owned by friends), they were milked two or three times per day.

 

I'm not saying that if I could choose to be any animal, I'd choose to be a dairy cow.

 

But I'd rather be on one of those farms, than, say, a bunny in my neighborhood. They all get eaten by coyotes or cats long before the end of their lifespans and the cats tease them before they die and they don't even EAT the bunnies.

 

Yep, milked two to three times a day. Out on pasture the rest of the day. Really, they want to be milked. They will be waiting by the door hollering for you if you're late.

 

 

 

 

As for the folks that say they don't want a bunch of meat in their freezer. I have split a beef between 4 people and sometimes between 6 people. It means I get a little meat, but not so much that I need to empty the freezer for it.

 

Our cows weren't taken off of mom until they were 4-5 months. They were penned away from mom for the day while mom went out to pasture. Sometimes those little brats would get so harsh on the mom that we would have to wean them early. Calves can get mean and hurt the cows bags pretty bad. Some of those dairy breeds are pretty docile girls and won't kick the calves when they bunt too much. My beef cow never put up with behaviour like that.

 

This is an interesting article on the environmental benefits of grazing animals. A lot of the studies that have been done have not pointed out the differences between grass fed and feedlot cattle. There is a huge difference in their environmental impact. A simple google on it brings up a bunch of stuff.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Where did I say I drove 2 hours for a whole cow? Nowhere, because I didn't.

 

I brought up cost because most news articles say grass-fed meat it a "luxury." Most news articles are written by ignorant people.

 

If I want specific cuts of grass-fed meat I can drive 15 minutes and buy it. So.... :confused1:  Why try to imagine that this is more complicated for me than it is?

 

Hornblower, did you read what I wrote or the link I posted? There's no forests being cut down in Wadi Rum. LOL.

 

I'm saying I'd have to drive that far to get it.  Meaning not everyone has reasonably nearby access.  Going by the prices in the store, which is where probably many people get it, it is a luxury.  Your situation might not be all that common with somewhere nearby that is reasonably priced.  Not you, but I've had people tell me it's not much more difficult to get and they get it for cheap. That's great, but that's not available to a lot of people.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yep, milked two to three times a day. Out on pasture the rest of the day. Really, they want to be milked. They will be waiting by the door hollering for you if you're late.

 

 

 

 

As for the folks that say they don't want a bunch of meat in their freezer. I have split a beef between 4 people and sometimes between 6 people. It means I get a little meat, but not so much that I need to empty the freezer for it.

 

Our cows weren't taken off of mom until they were 4-5 months. They were penned away from mom for the day while mom went out to pasture. Sometimes those little brats would get so harsh on the mom that we would have to wean them early. Calves can get mean and hurt the cows bags pretty bad. Some of those dairy breeds are pretty docile girls and won't kick the calves when they bunt too much. My beef cow never put up with behaviour like that.

 

This is an interesting article on the environmental benefits of grazing animals. A lot of the studies that have been done have not pointed out the differences between grass fed and feedlot cattle. There is a huge difference in their environmental impact. A simple google on it brings up a bunch of stuff.

 

My problem is also that I don't know anyone to share meat with.

 

But anyhow, I actually almost never buy beef because my husband doesn't like it. 

[Dory]

My problem is also that I don't know anyone to share meat with.

 

But anyhow, I actually almost never buy beef because my husband doesn't like it. 

 

That reasoning I understand completely. No sense buying a bunch of meat if it's not going to be eaten and enjoyed.

[AMJ]

Good for listening to your body :-)

When I was pregnant and nursing, my body CRAVED vanilla ice cream. Which is funny because I never liked ice cream much before - but I had to have it and ate it form the carton with a big spoon, every night.

Once I had weaned my youngest, the craving abruptly disappeared and I stopped eating ice cream. I am firmly convinced that my body told me that it needed the extra calories and calcium.

 

BUT I also think this only works as long as the digestive system is not damaged through systematic overeating - after damage is done, it seems that these mechanisms of healthy self-regulating and intuitive eating are no longer functioning.

 

I know you didn't draw this generalization but I'd like to speak to it anyway because some readers will:  Not all damage to self-regulating and intuitive eating is caused by systematic overeating.  I, for one, had a high metabolism in my youth.  I could eat whatever I wanted and however much I wanted without gaining weight, but I was quite satisfied by a moderate amount of food.  I could trust my cravings, as when I had any they were always for something my diet was lacking at the moment, and once I had some the cravings went away.  However, all of this changed when hypothyroidism set in.  Suddenly it didn't matter how little I ate, the weight poured onto me.  It didn't matter how well I ate, either, how nutritious my diet was, and it didn't matter that I was still quite active.  The pounds found me a magnetic as a junk yard's electo-magnet.  Just as I couldn't help being skinny when I was younger, since about age 30 I couldn't help being what people consider overweight.

 

Now the only fuss I really get into about my weight is when it changes significantly.  If I'm not doing something deliberately to cause the change I know something is going wrong.  Sometimes it's dietary -- in the last quarter of 2014 I knew my diet was sliding, and I was eating way too much convenience foods.  I bloated, but more than that I felt achy and icky again.  I am now addressing that, and I can feel the difference already.

 

I agree with the first responder:  our society has a HUGE fixation with "healthy" eating, and it's gone to unhealthy extremes.  Each person needs to just figure out what works well for him or her specifically (and nay dependents), and stop worrying about everyone else.  Eat what has you feeling good and healthy, whatever that is.  Biologically we humans are OMNIVORES -- we eat a wide variety of things.  It's an evolutionary adaption.  Eat what works for you, and understand that what works for someone else might be different. 

 

And understand that for some, what works for them might take trial and error, and might not be intuitive.  For half of my life I enjoyed intuitive dining, and now I have pay closer attention and figure it out each time something in my body's makeup changes.  What we need to eat and can eat changes over time, too, so don't get too upset if you can no longer eat like a kid.

[mamaraby]

And grass-fed beef isn't a luxury. I can't roll my eyes hard enough at news articles that rank the paleo diet low because it is "too expensive." My chillin cow was less expensive per pound than supermarket beef. It took some extra effort to get it, but really, it wasn't that bad.

 

If you don't want to eat animals, fine. But really, the "bad for the environment" and "bad for animals" arguments are simply untrue for me.

 

And I think that veganism is healthier is just flat-out false. Anthropologists have been trying to find a vegetarian or vegan native culture, and there's no evidence of one. Sorry, but if no humans ever thought it was a good idea since the beginning of time, then no, I don't think any science will be found saying that it is quantitatively better than being an omnivore.

1- Yes, it is. You have an n=1 experience that simply isn't generalizable to a wider population. Grassfed anything is a luxury item here no matter where I buy it or how I buy it. I've driven all over the place in pursuit of this holy grail and it is not to be found. The economy of scale wins out every time.

2 - You passionately believe yourself to be right and hold your very own restrictive dietary beliefs. No amount of what anyone else can say will convince you otherwise. This in and of itself is very much what adds to the confusion. We end up with a lot of confirmation bias that's really hard to topple (i.e. "It's untrue for me").

3 - Doesn't matter. Seriously. I'm not going to debate whether your assertion about what anthroplogists have or have not found because it doesn't matter. There is no one ideal diet for people to follow because humans have always been opportunistic eaters whose only goal was to survive. There is no golden dietary good old days to return to so we all magically avoid diseases and be super healthy people. Humans are evolving still. We didn't hit some zenith of evolutionary change in the paleolithic era. Everything (the plants we eat, the animals we raise for food, etc) has changed since then.

 

Also, humans have had a lot of crazy ideas over time (and still do). I'm incredibly thankful for things like antibiotics for infection instead of blood letting to realign my humors. I don't think "well, no one else in the past thought that was a good idea" is a wise way to make judgements about anything.

 

Again, don't want to eat a vegan diet? Don't. At the same time, let's not distract from what we actually know and have really strong scientific support for. The science is far more clear on the importance of plants to a healthy diet than it is about organics, grassfed, or whatever else is the latest food belief dujour.

[Joanne]

 

Again, don't want to eat a vegan diet? Don't. At the same time, let's not distract from what we actually know and have really strong scientific support for. The science is far more clear on the importance of plants to a healthy diet than it is about organics, grassfed, or whatever else is the latest food belief dujour.

 

The bold, I can agree with. And, indeed, I disagree with the extreme low carbers who defend "no veggies" as optimal.

 

I'm not a fan of the "mostly plants" part of Pollan's quote, but when I eat what feels best for my body, I eat a lot of veggies.  But I get my energy and satiation from meat, fats, eggs.