Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[Rosie_0801]

Thanks Lovely! ^

[TranquilMind]

I think Rosie is probably using this definition of a troll:

 

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,^[1] by posting inflammatory,^[2]extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response^[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

 

(From wikipedia.)

 

I don't start arguments or intentionally sow discord, if that is your accusation.

 

I'm not afraid of diversity of opinion, however, as are some.  I'm not going to be silenced by peer pressure.  If you don't like it, put me on ignore (if this site allows that- I have no idea, as I don't fear others who don't agree with me, so I have never tried to block anyone). 

[Mrs Mungo]

I live a very traditional, conservative, even religious life. I am a military wife and have been for over 20 years, married to the same man. I teach and participate in Bible studies. The only way in which I don't fit the politically conservative mold is that I don't think my values or religion SHOULD be the ones that everyone holds. I don't believe that my religious opinions should hold political power over other people. I think that would be wrong and unAmerican.

 

I think it should be allowed for people to be as racist, bigoted or rude as they want. They exist. I accept that they are who they show themselves to be/say they are. That IS tolerance.

 

To say that other people cannot possibly be who they say they are is NOT tolerance.

 

One doesn't have to be silent about rudeness or injustice in order to be tolerant. That isn't how it works.

[TranquilMind]

I'm here because I learn more about how people work and I help others do the same. I'm even polite about it most of the time.

 

That's why I'm a valued* forum participant not a troll. I'm even valued by people who hardly ever agree with me and who I hardly ever agree with.

 

 

*Not by everyone, I'm well aware.

I'm polite about it most of the time as well. 

 

And believe or not - you had better sit down for this one - apparently, I am valued by a few as well, if my private message box is any indication. 

[texasmama]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/freedhearts/2014/12/31/deadly-sins-parents-commit-against-their-transgender-kids-in-memory-of-leelah-alcorn/

#7 is my favorite.

[Rosie_0801]

And believe or not - you had better sit down for this one - apparently, I am valued by a few as well, if my private message box is any indication. 

 

I don't need to sit down. I knew that already.

[*Lulu*]

There are what, 700 posts now? I'm just not doing the work to go back to my first response. Not willing tonight.

But I'm sure that someone said something that was peculiar or contrary to the evidence, or skewed, and I didn't let it stand unchallenged. That is what normally happens.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same article, the one from "kpopstarz". I don't know what the rules are for linking here, but the article I'm looking at makes the statement that says something like previously, Angelina has revealed that Shiloh wants to be called John. But the link that supports that statement is to an article from 2010 (when Shiloh was 4) where Angelina says, essentially that Shiloh likes wearing boys clothing, that she went through a phase when she liked to be called John (in 2010 this was described in the past tense like it was a phase that was already finished), and that she enjoys being with her brothers. Angelina also repeated refers to Shiloh as "she/her" in the quote, and asks that people not over interpret.

But the politically-correct with an ax to grind, undoubtedly won't let it go, as Mom will.

That's unfortunate.

Here.

 

I wouldn't want you to have to do the hard work of clicking on page 1 AND 2.

[texasmama]

I really dislike the attempt to turn these discussions into some kind of a culture war. 

 

Everybody ( or nearly everybody ) has people who agree with them, and will PM to tell them so. This isn't a - excuse the Aussie slang - pissing contest.

Oh honey!  That is some good ole southern US slang, too.  ;)

[*Lulu*]

In a case it is confusing:

 

First post is your post response to me.

 

The second is the post YOU quoted in post 52.

 

The third is your post 52 replying to the above quote.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm polite about it most of the time as well. 

 

And believe or not - you had better sit down for this one - apparently, I am valued by a few as well, if my private message box is any indication. 

 

Anyone egging you on toward your own unique blend of arrogance and persecution complex should be ashamed of themselves, because nothing you've had to say yet aligns with Christianity, tradition, American values, science, or anything solid. So the only thing left to privately applaud (chickens) is unkindness and ignorance.

 

If that's not the case and a major and respectable world religion has been authentically represented by this poster's words, I'd appreciate having that pointed out. If possible. I doubt it.

[*Lulu*]

Anyone egging you on toward your own unique blend of arrogance and persecution complex should be ashamed of themselves, because nothing you've had to say yet aligns with Christianity, tradition, American values, science, or anything solid. So the only thing left to privately applaud (chickens) is unkindness and ignorance.

 

If that's not the case and a major and respectable world religion has been authentically represented by this poster's words, I'd appreciate having that pointed out. If possible. I doubt it.

Gotta love the invocation of the silent PM army.

[texasmama]

No one has pm'ed me to support me, and I am seriously put out.

[Rosie_0801]

No one has pm'ed me to support me, and I am seriously put out.

 

I'll do that right now. I'll have to keep it short though, coz I need to go find a lunch.

[justasque]

I didn't "treat Ravin" any particular wayl I don't even know who "Ravin" is.  I vaguely remember once replying to Ravin about the cake thread, only because I asked if it would be ok with Ravin, if someone posted all over Facebook that they got this fantastic cake for (X event Ravin wanted nothing to do with) from "Ravin's Cakes".  And that is the sole extent of my knowledge of Ravin.  Unlike some of you - this post, in point - I am discussing ideas, and not castigating individuals. 

 

 I have responded to dozens of posts, and Ravin's posts are not distinguishable from all of the other posts.   A great big sea of, "You are wrong, and we are right."

 

You most certainly have proven my point about the lack of diversity welcome here, however. 

 

TranquilMind, if I remember correctly, Ravin self-identifies as transgender.  So when you say "people who think they are transgender are X", we are hearing "Ravin is X".  

 

You hold a different point of view than many others in this thread.  I for one am interested in this forum because it helps me to consider the points of view of many different people.  However, the diversity works best if people, even if they disagree, are kind to each other.  

 

Again, please keep in mind, when you speak on this subject, that for many of us this is not a theoretical issue.  This affects real people in our lives - our friends, our friends' kids, our family members, or in Ravin's case ourselves.  

 

Please, please, try to be kind and thoughtful when sharing your perspective.  Even sharing beliefs that certain actions are sinful or wrong can be done with kindness and gentleness.  Please, please try.  It is the right thing to do.  The morally right way to treat others.  Even those who may be sinners.  Please.

[texasmama]

I'll do that right now. I'll have to keep it short though, coz I need to go find a lunch.

Oh thanks!  It will make me all warm and fuzzy inside.  :D

[*Lulu*]

No one has pm'ed me to support me, and I am seriously put out.

I support you, your chili, and your sweet avatar kicks.

 

I support you so freakin much, I'll say it right here in front of God and everybody!

[texasmama]

I support you, your chili, and your sweet avatar kicks.

 

I support you so freakin much, I'll say it right here in front of God and everybody!

<swoon>

 

I am giddy with the support and love.  First Rosie pm'ing me, and now this.  It is too much.  I am verklempt.

[*Lulu*]

<swoon>

 

I am giddy with the support and love. First Rosie pm'ing me, and now this. It is too much. I am verklempt.

Shall I pass you the hanky?

[texasmama]

Shall I pass you the hanky?

<sob>

 

Yes, please.

[texasmama]

Will you pass out if I add how much I love Texas ?

<passes out>

[texasmama]

I support you, your chili, and your sweet avatar kicks.

 

I support you so freakin much, I'll say it right here in front of God and everybody!

<coming to>

 

And extra points for sounding so much like Napoleon Dynamite.

[Tanaqui]

Y'all just need to stop with this alphabet soup. (LOL)

 

Once you get enough letters, you can use the term QUILTBAG.

 

The blockers are hormonal and have side effects.  Reproductive cancers are well-known side effects from hormonal overload from other reasons (birth control pills, etc).  

 

The cross-gender hormones, if given right after the blockers cause sterility.  They are also off-label. 

 

You had better be VERY sure before letting some 10 year old make that decision. 

 

1. Although there is a slight increase in the risk of certain cancers, there is a decrease in the risk of other cancers. Furthermore, we aren't sure what the correlation is between BC and cervical cancer. It may be that women on the pill are less likely to use condoms and thus more likely to contract HPV, which is the cause of most cervical cancer.

 

Finally, not all forms of hormonal BC are associated with an increase in the risk of cancer.

 

2. Hormone blockers are only "off label" if used for transgender individuals. They have been used for many years for other children, including children with precocious puberty. Therefore, we have some idea what the side effects are. There is no evidence that they cause any long term problems.

 

3. Ten year olds are not taking "cross-gender hormones".

 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

 

Once you get enough letters, you can use the term QUILTBAG.

 

 

1. Although there is a slight increase in the risk of certain cancers, there is a decrease in the risk of other cancers. Furthermore, we aren't sure what the correlation is between BC and cervical cancer. It may be that women on the pill are less likely to use condoms and thus more likely to contract HPV, which is the cause of most cervical cancer.

 

Finally, not all forms of hormonal BC are associated with an increase in the risk of cancer.

 

2. Hormone blockers are only "off label" if used for transgender individuals. They have been used for many years for other children, including children with precocious puberty. Therefore, we have some idea what the side effects are. There is no evidence that they cause any long term problems.

 

3. Ten year olds are not taking "cross-gender hormones".

 

 

Exactly. Keep in mind that there *are* parents here whose kids are on hormone blockers and/or hormones for a variety of reasons. We are therefore extremely well informed on the topic through extensive conversations with endocrinologists (and some people here are doctors), not by a quick scan of web MD.

[Daria]

The blockers are hormonal and have side effects.  Reproductive cancers are well-known side effects from hormonal overload from other reasons (birth control pills, etc).  

 

The cross-gender hormones, if given right after the blockers cause sterility.  They are also off-label. 

 

You had better be VERY sure before letting some 10 year old make that decision. 

 

No one is using either puberty blockers to hormones on their 10 year olds, and puberty blockers, which generally are started between 12 and 14 have quite a bit of research showing that they're safe.  Even if that research isn't 100% complete, gender dysphoria in transgender teens is a condition that causes 41% of them to commit suicide.  In families where parents refuse to acknowledge or support their kids, the rate is significantly higher.  If my kid had symptoms that were associated with life threatening events 41% of the time, I'd probably be pretty eager to explore options.  I wouldn't wait until my child was 100% conclusively diagnosed, if that meant there was a good chance he'd die while we continued to search for diagnostic proof.  This is particularly true in the case of a medication like puberty blockers, which have good clinical evidence for their safety when treating CPP, another condition presenting in children. 

 

I've actually made a decision that was similar to this one.  When my son was about 5 months old he was suffering from recurrent pneumonitis, the pneumonitis was inhibiting his physical and emotional development, and causing lung scarring that could potentially be permanent.  It also put him at very high risk for complications if he developed RSV or other common viruses.

 

Diagnostic testing was inconclusive.  It looked as though he probably was struggling with aspiration, but they were unable to "catch" the aspiration during fluoroscopy, so it was unclear as to whether he was aspirating on reflux, or when he swallowed.  As a result, the decision was made to treat him for both conditions.  Reflux was treated using a medication that was known to cause fatal arrhythmias in some kids.  The swallow issues were treated using feeding tube, which mean major surgery under general anaesthesia, something that's always risky for kids with lung issues.  

 

Was this an easy decision? No.  Was it the right decision?  Probably, after all he survived and thrived, but of course we'll never know if it was really the reflux meds, or really the surgery that let that happen.  However, I have no regrets.  

[Scarlett]

My guess, and it is just a guess (which I feel okay about posting only because Scarlett has been given many opportunities to speak up and hasn't) is that she dislikes them because the rumors suggest they fell in love while Brad Pitt was still married.

I have tried to back away from this entire discussion because it is so upsetting to me. I have a 14 yo quirky kid that I have been through the wringer with...beginning with the destruction of his FOO. I have not told much of our struggles in an attempt to protect his privacy...,but yes my life and his was deeply affected by adultery....aka falling in love with someone else while still married. 5 1/2 years has taught me much and I have a lot of compassion where I once only had contempt. So yeah, Angie and Brad leave a bad taste in my mouth for that reason and I don't feel compelled to explain it beyond that. I don't think either of them are evil but I still don't have to love them and I can still roll my eyes at them. Their kid having issues? That disturbs me.....I hope it all works out.

[LucyStoner]

I missed the part about the banjos. People at my house do play banjos and sometimes even out on the front porch.

 

We have a banjo. Singular. My husband plays a lot of instruments, lol.

[LucyStoner]

Ok. As a point of information, "cross gender hormones" do not generally cause lifelong sterility.

 

My brother was on T from age 18-24, off for a bit, had two successful pregnancies resulting in babies about 19 months apart and went back on T. At that point he also had a complete hysterectomy. Of all the ways for him to become a parent, that was the best option for him. He wasn't the first and he won't be a last FTM man to do that.

 

Here's my issue. No one needs to like my brother. No one needs to agree with my brother's life situation. No one needs to believe that his life is moral or acceptable to their religion.

 

What all good people need to do though is respect that my brother is a human being with the agency to live his life as he sees fit. He's a human being who has the right to make decisions which might not be in synch with anyone else's religious values but which are legal and do not affect another person negatively in anyway.

 

All good people need to refrain from telling me or anyone else that my brother and people like him are just delusional.

 

Some people consider religion a delusion. It is quite rude, conceited and crass however to walk into a church or dinner with your uncle the Methodist minister and tell him that his beliefs are delusional.

 

Gender dysphoria is in the DSM. The best available treatment, the one with the best long term patient outcomes, is gender reassignment in the form of medication, self presentation and possibly, surgery. How do we know this? Because people are doing better post transition than they did before that was an option. I take this very seriously. I've said it before and I will say it again. My brother is alive today because he had appropriate medical treatment available to him. Conversion type therapies do not work. So I don't give a flying you-know-what if that is a problem for anyone's personal or religious beliefs. All that matters is that my brother is healthy, alive and happy. That his husband got the chance to meet him and love him. That his daughters got the chance to exist and be raised in a loving family home. You can think it's wrong, you can think it is a sin or a joke or a delusion. But your thoughts and beliefs are 100% irrelevant to another person's life. Do not do on to others what you would not have them do to you. I am pretty sure no one would want to have their core identity derided as a delusion.

[Ravin]

I think there are a couple things to keep in mind here. One is that according to one theological argument, it's not the individual's "job" to advertise the faith. God calls whom he will, and to those he doesn't call, the message of love just happens to sound like a message of hate. That's because without a spiritual regeneration (being born again), you can't really know God's will, you can only interpret God's word against the backdrop of your own [sinful] will. A will steeped in sin will no doubt give false readings, as it's confounded and blinded to the capital "T" Truth. Like with other conspiracy theories, dismissing the Truth is understood to be proof of the depth and efficacy of the conspiracy itself.

 

The other is if TM's angle is anything like mine use to be (and it sounds familiar, not only from this conversation but from others I've had with her in the past), the sympathy and compassion exists, and is genuine. The difference is the direction of this compassion, and the sources from which she derives her information. I can't (and won't, and don't need to) speak for TM, but if it helps, I'll share with you what I used to think, and why, and why TM's argument is familiar to me.

 

When I was a Christian, I used my faith as a practical guide as offered by my church, friends, and my own understanding. By this, I mean that I trusted the bible to be a source of practical knowledge, and so when it talked about "sin," I trusted that to be an insightful and truthful explanation of human behavior. After all, we all violate and offend each other to some extent, and we all violate and offend our own self-declared intentions. "Sin" explained why - there's a natural instinct to sin. Paul talks about this in his letter to the Romans. In the Catholic church, it's called concupiscence, and it refers to doing wrong even when you know the reasonable thing to do.

 

As I understood it, Satan inspires people to defer to their own interests, to gratify their own desires in lieu of deferring to God's. These desires, when in opposition to God's will, would ultimately be detrimental to the individual, even if its effects aren't felt immediately (or even in "this life"). To support the very things that will bring more people more pain and suffering is to neglect their well-being. I believed that in restricting opportunities for LGBTQ people, we were supporting the younger generation. By limiting its exposure, we were limiting its appeal to those who might embrace it for all the wrong reasons. Of course, believing sexuality was binary as the bible promotes, there were no "right" reasons. These were choices made in rebellion, adventure, or even desperation, the root causes of these problems, as I understood it, was where my sympathy lied. Further, there's a popular enough pseudo-research passed around for years that suggests such things as science proves gay men die young, are more dozens of times more promiscuous, chose the lifestyle, and produce emotionally traumatized children. In that light, it would be immoral and unethical to not try and prevent a lifetime of pain and disease for children who are being "groomed" for the lifestyle. I can only assume TM's sympathy and compassion is every bit as genuine as mine was. She's just applying it from a different direction than you and I are.

 

 

It makes sense to me, not that I agree with it, but I understand it. If humanity is best explained through a conventional, traditional theology, then sexuality is binary and follows either God's plan or man's sinful desire. Assuming this to be true, to be born with the reproductive organs of one gender, but believe you are another, is to believe a false claim that is not only not supported by evidence, but is contrary to evidence. It is, by definition, delusional.

 

The problem with TM's argument is that her information is faulty. She's deferring to ancient texts explaining the natural world, including humanity, many of which were written back when the most educated people believed the sun was a magical person. In addition, she's ignoring evidence that reliably explains certain human behavior, including sexual identity, as being a naturally occurring phenomenon, albeit not common, but certainly not delusional. It's so much more complex than a kind of moral compass that leads to magnetic north/God, so "delusional" is inaccurate. It's inaccurate because it dismisses pertinent information, and applies beliefs as valid information, but it makes sense when you follow the argument in that direction.

 

 

If by "grace" you mean kind words and a lack of aggression, surely it's not an EO quality.

I'm quite familiar with this worldview. I grew up with it. Fortunately I also grew up with encouragement to think for myself, and unconditional love, and was blessed with resilience. It all seems very alien to me now.

[Amy in NH]

Because diverse opinions should be valued, but are not, unless they are True, Right Opinions, as verified by the liberal orthodoxy.  Diversity should cut both ways, but it never does. 

 

Because I find tiresome the smug back-patting of the oh-so-enlightened who have thrown off those binding shackles of faith and/or religion, and traditional values, and are now so much better than those backwoods "Deliverance" types (they imagine, in their minds).   

 

Because it's fun. 

 

Unfortunately I can see "ignored" posts in other people's quotes.  I un-ignored this one to point out that there is a big, big difference between facts and opinions.  Opinions do not trump facts.

[Ravin]

I really dislike the attempt to turn these discussions into some kind of a culture war.

 

Everybody ( or nearly everybody ) has people who agree with them, and will PM to tell them so. This isn't a - excuse the Aussie slang - pissing contest.

It feels like one. If it is, I'll win because I have an STP.

 

TM, allow me to introduce myself. I'm Ravin, the trans bloke who had been on this forum for years as well. You very clearly stated that people like me are either delusional or liars, and therefore you called me either delusional or a liar. I am neither.

 

And I think you need a better understanding of what political correctness is. It means being polite to those with less power in the public sphere. It's also known as good manners. It's the reason I haven't said what I actually think of you and your particular brand of religion. No one's going to shine a light into your cave because you've got a big rock in the way.

 

I'm still in this thread because there are other people who are maybe learning something (and others who have said they are) and because I like tilting at metaphorical windmills. It stopped being fun a while ago.

[Amy in NH]

Ok. As a point of information, "cross gender hormones" do not generally cause lifelong sterility.

 

My brother was on T from age 18-24, off for a bit, had two successful pregnancies resulting in babies about 19 months apart and went back on T. At that point he also had a complete hysterectomy. Of all the ways for him to become a parent, that was the best option for him. He wasn't the first and he won't be a last FTM man to do that.

 

Here's my issue. No one needs to like my brother. No one needs to agree with my brother's life situation. No one needs to believe that his life is moral or acceptable to their religion.

 

What all good people need to do though is respect that my brother is a human being with the agency to live his life as he sees fit. He's a human being who has the right to make decisions which might not be in synch with anyone else's religious values but which are legal and do not affect another person negatively in anyway.

 

All good people need to refrain from telling me or anyone else that my brother and people like him are just delusional.

 

Some people consider religion a delusion. It is quite rude, conceited and crass however to walk into a church or dinner with your uncle the Methodist minister and tell him that his beliefs are delusional.

 

Gender dysphoria is in the DSM. The best available treatment, the one with the best long term patient outcomes, is gender reassignment in the form of medication, self presentation and possibly, surgery. How do we know this? Because people are doing better post transition than they did before that was an option. I take this very seriously. I've said it before and I will say it again. My brother is alive today because he had appropriate medical treatment available to him. Conversion type therapies do not work. So I don't give a flying you-know-what if that is a problem for anyone's personal or religious beliefs. All that matters is that my brother is healthy, alive and happy. That his husband got the chance to meet him and love him. That his daughters got the chance to exist and be raised in a loving family home. You can think it's wrong, you can think it is a sin or a joke or a delusion. But your thoughts and beliefs are 100% irrelevant to another person's life. Do not do on to others what you would not have them do to you. I am pretty sure no one would want to have their core identity derided as a delusion.

 

This.  I like it times-infinity.

 

 

[Amy in NH]

It feels like one. If it is, I'll win because I have an STP.

 

TM, allow me to introduce myself. I'm Ravin, the trans bloke who had been on this forum for years as well. You very clearly stated that people like me are either delusional or liars, and therefore you called me either delusional or a liar. I am neither.

 

And I think you need a better understanding of what political correctness is. It means being polite to those with less power in the public sphere. It's also known as good manners. It's the reason I haven't said what I actually think of you and your particular brand of religion. No one's going to shine a light into your cave because you've got a big rock in the way.

 

I'm still in this thread because there are other people who are maybe learning something (and others who have said they are) and because I like tilting at metaphorical windmills. It stopped being fun a while ago.

 

:grouphug:

 

What is STP?  I looked it up and got Stone Temple Pilots, Standard Temperature and Pressure, and Shavin' the Pubes.  I don't think it is any of those.

[Ravin]

:grouphug:

 

What is STP? I looked it up and got Stone Temple Pilots, Standard Temperature and Pressure, and Shavin' the Pubes. I don't think it is any of those.

STP is short for stand-to-pee. Aka a device which allows someone without male genitals to do so.

[Amy in NH]

STP is short for stand-to-pee. Aka a device which allows someone without male genitals to do so.

 

Cool!  Thanks!  :D

[Joanne]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6398204

[Scarlett]

Ok. As a point of information, "cross gender hormones" do not generally cause lifelong sterility.

 

My brother was on T from age 18-24, off for a bit, had two successful pregnancies resulting in babies about 19 months apart and went back on T. At that point he also had a complete hysterectomy. Of all the ways for him to become a parent, that was the best option for him. He wasn't the first and he won't be a last FTM man to do that.

 

Here's my issue. No one needs to like my brother. No one needs to agree with my brother's life situation. No one needs to believe that his life is moral or acceptable to their religion.

 

What all good people need to do though is respect that my brother is a human being with the agency to live his life as he sees fit. He's a human being who has the right to make decisions which might not be in synch with anyone else's religious values but which are legal and do not affect another person negatively in anyway.

 

All good people need to refrain from telling me or anyone else that my brother and people like him are just delusional.

 

Some people consider religion a delusion. It is quite rude, conceited and crass however to walk into a church or dinner with your uncle the Methodist minister and tell him that his beliefs are delusional.

 

Gender dysphoria is in the DSM. The best available treatment, the one with the best long term patient outcomes, is gender reassignment in the form of medication, self presentation and possibly, surgery. How do we know this? Because people are doing better post transition than they did before that was an option. I take this very seriously. I've said it before and I will say it again. My brother is alive today because he had appropriate medical treatment available to him. Conversion type therapies do not work. So I don't give a flying you-know-what if that is a problem for anyone's personal or religious beliefs. All that matters is that my brother is healthy, alive and happy. That his husband got the chance to meet him and love him. That his daughters got the chance to exist and be raised in a loving family home. You can think it's wrong, you can think it is a sin or a joke or a delusion. But your thoughts and beliefs are 100% irrelevant to another person's life. Do not do on to others what you would not have them do to you. I am pretty sure no one would want to have their core identity derided as a delusion.

I am cautiously curious about this. I don't want my questions to be a platform to attack me.....but I Am very curious about a few things....I would never ask these questions IRL...so if this is rude just ignore me.....

 

You say gender dysphoria is in the DSM. So is it a mental illness? If so how is it treated? Is the only way to treat it gender reassignment? Also are there any people who feel they are trapped in the wrong body....living a life as the gender they were born with?

[Amy in NH]

I am cautiously curious about this. I don't want my questions to be a platform to attack me.....but I Am very curious about a few things....I would never ask these questions IRL...so if this is rude just ignore me.....

 

You say gender dysphoria is in the DSM. So is it a mental illness? If so how is it treated? Is the only way to treat it gender reassignment? Also are there any people who feel they are trapped in the wrong body....living a life as the gender they were born with?

 

Yes, feeling trapped in the wrong body is exactly it.  Every bit of your identity that you know yourself as - the way you feel about yourself in your head - is one way, but your body doesn't match.  And then to make it worse everyone around you goes along with your body.  Imagine if you feel like a woman, and you know in your heart of hearts that you are a woman, but everyone calls you a man and expects you to act like one.

 

I think for most transgender people they know at an early age that they feel "wrong".  Some, like Leelah, don't know how to express it until they are much older, and many repress their feelings because of social pressures.  But imagine if you woke up tomorrow and this suddenly happened to you.  Would you feel like you were going crazy?  Could you accept yourself?  Make yourself fit in with the men?  Would you feel like your body betrayed you every time you had to use the restroom or take a shower or shave your beard? 

 

And what has been pointed out here or in other threads is that science is showing us that transgender people have brain markers that correspond with their gender identity and not with the wrong-body they were born with.  So fix the brain or the body?  We don't know how to fix the brain, and honestly if you felt that you were a woman and medicine could make your body fit that would you be more likely to choose to change who you are in your head, or make your body match even if it were more painful and costly?

[Scarlett]

Yes, feeling trapped in the wrong body is exactly it. Every bit of your identity that you know yourself as - the way you feel about yourself in your head - is one way, but your body doesn't match. And then to make it worse everyone around you goes along with your body. Imagine if you feel like a woman, and you know in your heart of hearts that you are a woman, but everyone calls you a man and expects you to act like one.

 

I think for most transgender people they know at an early age that they feel "wrong". Some, like Leelah, don't know how to express it until they are much older, and many repress their feelings because of social pressures. But imagine if you woke up tomorrow and this suddenly happened to you. Would you feel like you were going crazy? Could you accept yourself? Make yourself fit in with the men? Would you feel like your body betrayed you every time you had to use the restroom or take a shower or shave your beard?

I don't know. Is it possible to feel this way and still not betray your moral code? The description of how they feel breaks my heart.

[LucyStoner]

I am cautiously curious about this. I don't want my questions to be a platform to attack me.....but I Am very curious about a few things....I would never ask these questions IRL...so if this is rude just ignore me.....

 

You say gender dysphoria is in the DSM. So is it a mental illness? If so how is it treated? Is the only way to treat it gender reassignment? Also are there any people who feel they are trapped in the wrong body....living a life as the gender they were born with?

I am not a mental health professional. I'm a professional number cruncher and smart aleck. Here is what the DSM V says about Gender Dysphoria:

 

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

 

The main treatment is sex reassignment through medical treatment, legal changes and changes to how people self present. "When it comes to access to care, many of the treatment options for this condition include counsel- ing, cross-sex hormones, gender reassignment surgery, and social and legal transition to the desired gender."

 

There are people who have gender dysphoria but do not persue sex reassignment, for any number of reasons.

 

The DSM is a manual of mental disorders published by the APA.

 

I don't think that all gender variant people have a mental health issue. Gender dysphoria however is a health issue which, unlike merely not being cisgendered, needs medical treatment to resolve. My brother had it, got his treatment and now he is fine. He takes a medicine not unlike the myriad of daily prescriptions many people take for everything from depression to diabetes to epilepsy. I don't think this is a big deal.

 

I don't have any problems with questions, but I only answer ones about my brother that I feel are my business. :)

[Scarlett]

I am not a mental health professional. I'm a professional number cruncher and smart aleck. Here is what the DSM V says about Gender Dysphoria:

 

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

 

The main treatment is sex reassignment through medical treatment, legal changes and changes to how people self present. "When it comes to access to care, many of the treatment options for this condition include counsel- ing, cross-sex hormones, gender reassignment surgery, and social and legal transition to the desired gender."

 

There are people who have gender dysphoria but do not persuade sex reassignment, for any number of reasons.

 

The DSM is a manual of mental disorders published by the APA.

 

I don't think that all gender variant people have a mental health issue. Gender dysphoria however is a health issue which, unlike merely not being cisgendered, needs medical treatment to resolve. My brother had it, got his treatment and now he is fine. He takes a medicine not unlike the myriad of daily prescriptions many people take for everything from depression to diabetes to epilepsy. I don't think this is a big deal.

 

I don't have any problems with questions, but I only answer ones about my brother that I feel are my business. :)

What part is your business?

[LucyStoner]

Deleting glitchy post

[LucyStoner]

What part is your business?

How I feel as his sister, things which we both generally consider public information, how it was growing up with him, the parts of my experiences as his caregiver when he was an older teenager which I am willing to share, knowledge I have gleaned which is helpful to discussing trans issues in general. My love for him, his husband and my adorable beyond all reason nieces.

 

Sometimes people ask things like how he has sex or if his husband is "really gay". Those are the types of questions I raise an eyebrow to and ignore, lol. Because he is after all my brother and as siblings we both generally prefer to spend zero time thinking about the other's sex life.

 

ETA- my brother is more out as trans now because he has two daughters and he wasn't going to lie to them about where they came from. As such, he is more open about things. Before he was pregnant, I would have shared much less. I use his level of openness, weighing the purpose for sharing the information, to guide the sorts of things I will talk about. Also, one thing I only discuss generically is the suicidal period he lived through before and after he lived with me. It's just too painful to discuss beyond the generic facts like "transitioning saved his life." I was there, I was his guardian. I don't need to relive the details. As you may have surmised, my brother and I are very close in many ways.

[IsabelC]

Thanks Katie for being generous enough to give us a glimpse of your and your brother's personal experiences.

[Rosie_0801]

 Also are there any people who feel they are trapped in the wrong body....living a life as the gender they were born with?

 

It is a spectrum. Some people won't feel "wrong enough" to feel the need to transition. For some people transitioning would mean they were in a different not quite right body.

 

Or so is my current understanding based on conversations I've had.

[Joules]

.

 

I'm still in this thread because there are other people who are maybe learning something (and others who have said they are) and because I like tilting at metaphorical windmills. It stopped being fun a while ago.

(piping up from lurkdom) Yes, there are people learning here. I thank you and Katie for being so open and honest, and others for sharing so much information and so many links. It's not really a change of opinion for me as I'm a live-and-let-live Golden Rule kind of person, but I am so much more educated on the individual issues.

[texasmama]

I'm still in this thread because there are other people who are maybe learning something (and others who have said they are) and because I like tilting at metaphorical windmills. It stopped being fun a while ago.

I am learning a tremendous amount, and I am open to learning.  As I've said before in this thread, the best way to learn is from people who have personal experience.  As a straight, cisgendered Christian woman, I want to learn as much as I can about the experiences and feelings and lives that other people have.  I approach this dialog with humility and compassion, knowing that, at the core of my Christian faith, is a desire to love others as Christ does and to do nothing intentionally to add to another person's pain.

 

(I learned the word cisgendered from this thread.  I said I was straight not because this is about sexuality but because it demonstrates how really "mainstream" I am.  I am also white and educated and in the US so I am privileged out the wazoo and am very aware of that.)

[Word Nerd]

I don't start arguments or intentionally sow discord, if that is your accusation.

 

I'm not afraid of diversity of opinion, however, as are some.  I'm not going to be silenced by peer pressure.  If you don't like it, put me on ignore (if this site allows that- I have no idea, as I don't fear others who don't agree with me, so I have never tried to block anyone). 

 

I don't put people on Ignore because I fear them. When I do it, it's a reminder to take extra care before reading and responding to that poster because our mutual posts in the past have tended to be combative and fruitless. I recommend giving it a try.

[merry gardens]

Yes, feeling trapped in the wrong body is exactly it.  Every bit of your identity that you know yourself as - the way you feel about yourself in your head - is one way, but your body doesn't match.  And then to make it worse everyone around you goes along with your body.  ...

Oddly enough, I can relate. I'm trapped in an aging body! For almost two decades I lived as a girl, then for at least another decade, I lived as a young woman.  I identified as a young, slim, attractive woman. I don't feel I'm old, but my driver's license says I am at least a decade older than I feel.  Some of people here seem to suggest that my morals and values are old and antiquated, however I feel quite young.

 

When I see pictures of myself, I'm somewhat shocked to see that my outward body doesn't match how I feel. Does that mean that I'm in reality a different age since my mental age doesn't match my physical age?  Is there not some objective standards--such as the year of my birth--that we can use to determine how old I am?

 

To say that someone is a man because the person was born with XY chromosomes or that someone is a woman because that person was born with XX chromosomes seems like an objective standard, just as determining my age based on my birthday compared to the current date on a calendar seems like an objective standard. 

[Paige]

I don't know. Is it possible to feel this way and still not betray your moral code? The description of how they feel breaks my heart.

 

How would it impact someone's moral code any differently than any other physical problem? IMO, being trans is a biological issue- a mismatch between mind and body that is real. It has nothing to do with homosexuality if that is what is meant by moral code. You can be born with a female body, be attracted to men sexually, and still feel like you should have been born with a male body. Beyond that, what is homosexuality anyway? Is it being attracted to people who are the same physical sex as you or is it being attracted to people of the same gender you identify with? 

 

I apologize in advance if I used inappropriate language as I'm not really educated on the proper and respectful terminology these days. 

 

I know that gender and sex are not a binary system. There's a wide range of possible feelings and a wide range of physical expressions of sex- I'm talking biological possibilities too. People can be born absolutely male or female, or they can be intersexed and people can be intersexed in different ways. It's not as simple as saying that someone must be the gender that the chromosomes indicate because even then there are people who will have XX chromosomes from one sample and XY in another. If actual biology can be so confusing, it doesn't take much of a leap, IMO, to wonder why we would expect the mind to be simpler. We don't know enough about the brain to be able to objectively test it's gender, so I believe we should defer to the person with the brain. 

[Haiku]

I don't feel I'm old, but my driver's license says I am at least a decade older than I feel.

 

 

If there were a treatment to bring your physical body in line with your mental age, would you use it? Would you feel that others who did were somehow immoral?