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Beth in SW WA

McCain picked Sarah Palen, Governor of Alaska, as VP

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i have also stated that to allow maximum reconciling of the rights of the two individuals, i would support removal of the developing human, as long as that removal makes allowances for advances in technology that would eventually have a successful transplant of an embryo/fetus to an artificial/surrogate womb. At this point, that would mean --by default-- that the developing human dies -simply because we don't yet have that technology. But i would be supportive of allowing a legal removal that does not tear a human limb from limb nor kill it with chemical burns to get it out. Kinda like I support the laws that allow a mother to abandon her child at a hospital, police station, or fire station w/o legal consequence --the safety of the child is of utmost importance. Each abortion would have to meet legal requirements of attempting to maintain the right to life of the developing human. I know that sounds really Far Out There now, and i'm likely making some Serious Pro-Lifers very angry, but truly-- i can see the technology advancing at a rapid rate to make this possible.

 

This is a very intriguing idea. I'll have to give this some thought. It makes sense and the technology would be benificial for emergency deliveries of premies that can't survive on their own. It is worth some thought.

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But all this centers around a concept that Human Rights exist because we are HUMAN --even little tiny humans are still HUMAN.

 

AMEN!! Unborn babies deserve the Constitutional rights that every American is blessed w/. They are fully human, w/ a God-given soul that will live forever.

 

A mother should not have the right to murder her unborn child.

 

I had my head on my pillow last night and was thanking God for bringing us one tiny step closer to abolishing Roe v. Wade.

 

Anyone here want to join my Right To Life prayer team? :)

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So in Amy's Perfect World, induced abortions [intentional removal of an embryo/fetus] would still be legal,

but they would be SAFE for ALL parties involved, including the developing human.

 

This is how it might very well look in my perfect world as well. Too bad our world is seriously flawed. I think your opinion is original and admire it muchly.

 

And I get serious flashes to the Matrix when I think about it. :D

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Peek,

 

I have never heard of a view like this but it is something really worth thinking about. The idea of transplanting the developing child is a radical idea that I have never even heard mentioned before. I am adamantly pro-life but I see how this is a way to preserve life but still allow for freedom of choice. It basically sounds like adoption of a child before they are born. (Although I have to admit, I really don't think I could bring myself to support the work that would need to be done to gain the technological advances needed to make this possible so..... that kind of leads no where). Trying not to sound completely stupid here but.... is this a view that you have kind of come to on your own or is their work actually being done to try to make this possible. I'd really like to learn more about this idea.

 

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, very interesting.

 

I really don't think I could bring myself to support the work that would need to be done to gain the technological advances needed to make this possible so.....

 

This is where I lose my line of thinking too..... I do see that as the biggest hurdle: how to get pro-life people to help fund legislation [because prtecting its citizens is the primary role of the gvt] for R&D in a scenario like this. Most pro-lifers would not be willing to support even a basic removal knowing it will end the life of the child, no matter HOW "respectful" the removal is. Even i have issues with allowing that. But I do see it as the closest to a compromise that i would be able to agree to.

 

and honestly? i don't remember reading the idea anywhere, but I think i must have read at least the MENTION of it --i don't think i'm THAT smart, lol....... but yes, for the most part i have developed the idea on my own. If anyone knows of another person/organization that has a similar idea, I'd love to just team up w/ them. :D

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Would you mind elaborating on this a little. You would support removal of a fetus if the ability to medical transplant the fetus to another womb was available? Fetus adoption? You would support that now even though the fetus would because medical science has not yet successfully transplanted a fetus as long as we were working towards that end?

 

I've not heard of this and am confused.

 

Thanks,

Janet

 

don't worry, I'm still a little confused on how the details and legalities would work too, lol. but i do think it combines the concerns of pro-lifers and pro-choicers and thus could appeal to more people than what is currently being debated......maybe? feel free to help me develop this idea to a more workable model ;)

 

You would support removal of a fetus if the ability to medical transplant the fetus to another womb was available? Fetus adoption?

 

in a nutshell, yeah. and in the adoption vein, i would even support paying surrogate foster parents, similar to how the foster system currently works [even tho i KNOW it could use some overhauling!!]

 

You would support that now even though the fetus would because medical science has not yet successfully transplanted a fetus as long as we were working towards that end?

 

in the interest of recognizing HUMAN rights for ALL humans, yes, this is about as close to a compromise as i could come. I would want to see legislation supporting funding for medical/technological R&D to protect the lives of citizens tho.

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Does it bother anyone else that she has five kids (4 at home, I think), one an infant with Downes' Syndrome? My heart just really lurched when I saw her kids yesterday. I have to admit I feel like she should be staying at home taking care of her kids. Is her husband a stay-at-home dad, by any chance? It sounds like she is a wonderful candidate, but this bothers me, and will definitely be a factor in my voting decision (I keep telling my dh I'm going to write him in:D).

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This is how it might very well look in my perfect world as well. Too bad our world is seriously flawed. I think your opinion is original and admire it muchly.

 

And I get serious flashes to the Matrix when I think about it. :D

 

HEY!!

i wonder if that's what sparked the idea??

maybe??

:001_huh:

 

:lol:

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Does it bother anyone else that she has five kids (4 at home, I think), one an infant with Downes' Syndrome? My heart just really lurched when I saw her kids yesterday. I have to admit I feel like she should be staying at home taking care of her kids. Is her husband a stay-at-home dad, by any chance? It sounds like she is a wonderful candidate, but this bothers me, and will definitely be a factor in my voting decision (I keep telling my dh I'm going to write him in:D).

 

kind of, but yes, her dh offers a LOT of support. i believe he is a seasonal SAHD. I will go out on a limb of assumption and guess she probably has a pretty good support structure for her family. And her older kids are, well, older. That helps ;)

 

someone's mentioning of a playpen in the oval office was kinda cute, lol.

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This quote is hilarious! "To deal with the obvious first, she is a pippin. She is a beautiful woman who wears her hair up and has those schoolmarm eyeglasses. So there's the hot for teacher vote, neglected so many times and so callously throughout our nation's troubled history. I am joking, and this is fun to joke about, but anybody who thinks it an insignificant vote-getter is blissfully unaware of the hidden twelve-year-old boy in half the electorate." from http://www.dougwils.com/

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I really don't think I could bring myself to support the work that would need to be done to gain the technological advances needed to make this possible so.....

 

This is where I lose my line of thinking too..... I do see that as the biggest hurdle: how to get pro-life people to help fund legislation [because prtecting its citizens is the primary role of the gvt] for R&D in a scenario like this. Most pro-lifers would not be willing to support even a basic removal knowing it will end the life of the child, no matter HOW "respectful" the removal is. Even i have issues with allowing that. But I do see it as the closest to a compromise that i would be able to agree to.

 

 

I really think you could be on to something here (transplanting developing babies into a surrogate)... a way to resolve the issues on both sides. If only there was an easy way to get there. I really think the compromises that would need to be made to develop the technology would be a deal breaker for most pro-life supporters (I think I'd be counted in here). However, the combined support from current pro-choicers and those pro-lifers who are okay with the compromise might be enough????

 

I'll be interested to see if you learn anything more about this.

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This quote is hilarious! "To deal with the obvious first, she is a pippin. She is a beautiful woman who wears her hair up and has those schoolmarm eyeglasses. So there's the hot for teacher vote, neglected so many times and so callously throughout our nation's troubled history. I am joking, and this is fun to joke about, but anybody who thinks it an insignificant vote-getter is blissfully unaware of the hidden twelve-year-old boy in half the electorate." from http://www.dougwils.com/

 

That is funny. Somewhat true, unfortunately, but funny.

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don't worry, I'm still a little confused on how the details and legalities would work too, lol. but i do think it combines the concerns of pro-lifers and pro-choicers and thus could appeal to more people than what is currently being debated......maybe? feel free to help me develop this idea to a more workable model ;)

 

You would support removal of a fetus if the ability to medical transplant the fetus to another womb was available? Fetus adoption?

 

in a nutshell, yeah. and in the adoption vein, i would even support paying surrogate foster parents, similar to how the foster system currently works [even tho i KNOW it could use some overhauling!!]

 

You would support that now even though the fetus would because medical science has not yet successfully transplanted a fetus as long as we were working towards that end?

 

in the interest of recognizing HUMAN rights for ALL humans, yes, this is about as close to a compromise as i could come. I would want to see legislation supporting funding for medical/technological R&D to protect the lives of citizens tho.

 

Wow, is all I can say. That's a form of compromise I've never considered in the abortion debate other than the mother's life in danger. You've given me some thinking to do.

 

Janet

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This quote is hilarious! "To deal with the obvious first, she is a pippin. She is a beautiful woman who wears her hair up and has those schoolmarm eyeglasses. So there's the hot for teacher vote, neglected so many times and so callously throughout our nation's troubled history. I am joking, and this is fun to joke about, but anybody who thinks it an insignificant vote-getter is blissfully unaware of the hidden twelve-year-old boy in half the electorate." from http://www.dougwils.com/

 

 

When I talked to DH yesterday I was expressing how excited I was about this turn of events and wondered if he had heard about it yet. He said he had and one of his soldiers said, "She's HOT! I'll vote for her twice!"

So there is some truth behind that apparently! :lol:

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This quote is hilarious! "To deal with the obvious first, she is a pippin. She is a beautiful woman who wears her hair up and has those schoolmarm eyeglasses. So there's the hot for teacher vote, neglected so many times and so callously throughout our nation's troubled history. I am joking, and this is fun to joke about, but anybody who thinks it an insignificant vote-getter is blissfully unaware of the hidden twelve-year-old boy in half the electorate." from http://www.dougwils.com/

 

Please stop posting links to hateful websites :glare:

 

Bill

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from http://www.dougwils.com/

 

Please stop posting links to hateful websites :glare:

 

Bill

 

 

um, can i supersize the eye-rolling emoticon?

 

or maybe you'd like to clarify exactly what it is that you find "hateful", other than they might disagree w/ your particular stances? I mean, i consider websites that spout support about a woman's right to murder her child to be "hateful" against an unborn human, but I don't think I'd call it to the carpet as a "hateful website" when it is simply espousing a view i don't agree with. There's a difference between whether a site is "hateful" vs whether you just "hate IT."

 

But then again, my mantra is Thou shalt not take offense where none was intended. And I like to add an extra layer of rhino skin. I have extra if you'd like some.....

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Please stop posting links to hateful websites :glare:

 

Bill

 

I'm sorry you think a viewpoint opposite from yours is hateful. Women generally want to be understood, even if men don't want to comprehend their viewpoint,... like this "hateful" woman - http://generationcedar.blogspot.com/2008/08/more-thoughts-on-palinfrom-v-baucham.html

 

Please don't be mean to her! ;)

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wow--

i just realized that THIS thread is THE LONGEST actual discussion thread, lol!

and it has 5 stars to boot!

 

and there was a LOT of actual discussion!!!

 

good job everyone! :D

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This quote is hilarious! "To deal with the obvious first, she is a pippin. She is a beautiful woman who wears her hair up and has those schoolmarm eyeglasses. So there's the hot for teacher vote, neglected so many times and so callously throughout our nation's troubled history. I am joking, and this is fun to joke about, but anybody who thinks it an insignificant vote-getter is blissfully unaware of the hidden twelve-year-old boy in half the electorate." from http://www.dougwils.com/

 

This quote made me think about a funny youtube I came across while looking for information on Sarah Palin when the announcement was first made.

 

Craig Ferguson receives honorary citizenship from Alaska

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This quote is hilarious! "To deal with the obvious first, she is a pippin. She is a beautiful woman who wears her hair up and has those schoolmarm eyeglasses. So there's the hot for teacher vote, neglected so many times and so callously throughout our nation's troubled history. I am joking, and this is fun to joke about, but anybody who thinks it an insignificant vote-getter is blissfully unaware of the hidden twelve-year-old boy in half the electorate." from http://www.dougwils.com/

 

did you see the Dalai Bama?

I actually kinda like that, in a sincere complimentary-to-Obama kinda way.....

 

:)

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did you see the Dalai Bama?

I actually kinda like that, in a sincere complimentary-to-Obama kinda way.....

 

:)

 

Didn't see it. Directions?

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I'll be interested to see if you learn anything more about this.

 

 

ok, i started googling it to see what else was out there: I'm not alone :D

 

 

"ectogenesis"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectogenesis

Brave New World! duh.... i shoulda known, lol.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus

 

this discussion was back in 2002:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=94900

i guess I agree w/ the gal at the end of the discussion :)

 

wrt Jewish Law:

http://jlaw.com/Articles/maternity3.html

 

lots more on the ethical ramifications of ectogenesis w/ just a google search.

 

so i will clarify NOW that:

i am NOT in support of creating embryos just to destroy them for research.

I have no problem w/ human cloning --as long as they are considered free persons, not used to harvest organs.

 

 

this looks like new thread material......

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This quote made me think about a funny youtube I came across while looking for information on Sarah Palin when the announcement was first made.

 

Craig Ferguson receives honorary citizenship from Alaska

This was so funny. My eyes teared up while I was watching it. I especially loved his last comment about himself..."I'm a ridiculous buffoon of a man."

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did you see the Dalai Bama?

I actually kinda like that, in a sincere complimentary-to-Obama kinda way.....

 

:)

 

That's the one I call hateful. Photo of Obama os the Dalai Lama, surrounded with mocking commentary.

 

This sort of link is specifically NOT ALLOWED under board rules. This site shows no decent respect for either Mr Obama, or the Dalai Lama.

 

In just a few days this poster has linked to extremist anti-Islamic website, extremist theological sites, and now this. Enough is enough.

 

Bill

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Please stop posting links to hateful websites :glare:

 

Bill

 

Doug Wilson, author of Omnibus materials, teacher at Logos School and contributor to Veritas Press is not "hateful."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Wilson_(theologian)

 

You may object to the aforementioned photo of Obama dressed up in that fashion, but that is satirical -- not hateful.

 

Obama has made himself and easy target for thinking people to mock the "Messiah/Savior" persona -- and Obama-worship that is so prevalent these days in America (just watch Matthews/Olberman/Madow on MSNBC -- now that's hate-speach).

 

Bill, the political cartoons in my daily paper are similar in style to this photo of Obama -- but they usually mock McCain, Bush, etc.

 

Its free speech.

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wow--

i just realized that THIS thread is THE LONGEST actual discussion thread, lol!

and it has 5 stars to boot!

 

and there was a LOT of actual discussion!!!

 

good job everyone! :D

 

I hope SWB is proud of us for minding our manners. We have shown her we can handle divisive political discussions w/ respect to those w/ opposing views.

 

As homeschooling parents, The Hive is a great venue for this type of dialog. Our kids need us to be informed on all sides of issues.

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I have no idea the political biases (or not) of the following link, but I found it to be an interesting (rough) way to measure the relative experience on various issues of the candidates. . .

 

This site purports to be a database of the various candidates recorded opinions and actions on a wide range of issues.

 

The following is a link to Palin's page.

 

http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htm

 

I find it interesting that on many vital issues, their database is totally devoid of a record for her (in contrast to the other candidates listed).

 

If you click on "Other Candidates on Budget & Economy" or (any other topic), you can view many major candidates' records (written statements, legislation, governing history, voting records, etc.) on that topic.

 

I find it frightening how slim Palin's record is compared to *any* of the other big names.

 

I see the VP choice as the first presidential decision a potential Pres makes and I judge them to a large degree in whether or not the VP choice would be a wise choice to take over the presidency on Day#1. I really can't imagine Palin doing so. That thought is just astounding to me. It really sincerely perplexes me.

 

From the little I've learned about Palin so far, she sounds like an interesting and good woman. I'd probably enjoy knowing her, working with her, probably even be pleased to see her in national leadership positions where she could learn more and grow. I like and appreciate people of a wide range of personalities and political perspectives and I love to see a woman breaking barriers. But, VP, Now??? President?? Oh. . . My . . . Gosh.

 

Romney, McCain, Clinton, Obama. . .they (and many others) have records that support a reasonable expectation that they could do this job. I am amazed that the evidence shows that many good, even great, minds think that Palin has proven herself up to THIS job.

 

I wouldn't have chosen McCain for pres no matter his VP choice, but before he made this choice, I felt that he was at least qualified and up to the job (even if he would take the country in directions I disagree with). I have to say that I have rethought this in light of what I think is an irresponsible choice for VP. It makes me marvel at what on earth is going on in his head and his party. It just makes no sense to me.

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That's the one I call hateful. Photo of Obama os the Dalai Lama, surrounded with mocking commentary.

 

This sort of link is specifically NOT ALLOWED under board rules. This site shows no decent respect for either Mr Obama, or the Dalai Lama.

 

In just a few days this poster has linked to extremist anti-Islamic website, extremist theological sites, and now this. Enough is enough.

 

Bill

 

 

where is posting a link espousing a different POV against board rules??

are you saying that all mocking commentary about Bush is hateful too?

or does it fall under political satire?

 

"decent respect" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

"that poster" has linked to sites that discuss the Bible [which, i guess, by Very Definition would be considered "extreme anti-Islamic"] and different interpretations OF that Bible. That is ABSOLUTELY and SPECIFICALLY within the Board Rules: here's a review:

 

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Don't insist on the last word

Some disagreements will result in a draw. Be willing to let a thread end on someone ELSE'S opinion. "Last words" which have no purpose other than to assert that, after all, you're REALLY right, will be deleted.

 

Do not assume that everyone on the boards shares a particular religious conviction

These boards are inclusive. You are welcome to ask theological questions, but don't post as though everyone who frequents the boards shares your ideology. Offending posts may be deleted. Don't use inquiries as an excuse to proselytize for anything. Answer questions that are posted but don't use these questions as an excuse to springboard into criticism. For example: If someone asks, "What are your kids dressing up as for Halloween?" don't launch into an explanation of how evil Halloween is. If someone asks, "Is Halloween evil?" have a ball. (Conversely: if someone posts, "We don't do Halloween; what can we substitute?" don't take this as an opportunity to prove to them that Halloween is really just fine.)

 

If you're joking, say so

Really. Humor doesn't come across in cyberspace. Honest. Smilies help - try them. :-)

 

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now I'm not a moderator, but when you call another person's religious beliefs "hateful", that seems like an attack.

 

what I think is "enough" is people deciding that they have the patent on moral issues and that anything another person says is immoral or hateful.

 

I suggest you let the moderators sort it out, offer negative rep w/ your reason, or click on the little red and white triangle next the rep/scales icon on the right of each post and REPORT that post as something you are concerned as being "hateful."

 

But do realize that SWB has already disclosed [in the political sticky thread] that they are getting Very Sick of posters whining about posts and will start banning people who are griping. So if you take either of the options above and see no satisfaction in how they handle it, you're going to have to suck it up and decide whether the issue is more about YOUR perception or whether you are willing to pursue it in such a manner [emails, etc] that the mods decide your griping is worse than the supposedly hateful site and ban you for a week or two.

 

But do read back over those rules --i get a HUGE "live and let live" feeling from it, not an overbearing "we are going to micromanage what hundreds of different people think is hateful". We are adults here, not kids whining about our feelings getting hurt or someone not wanting to play by OUR rules.

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Don't post links to inflammatory sites. I will remove those posts. I get to decide whether or not a site is inflammatory, and if you then complain on the boards about censorship, that's going to get censored too. Fair warning.

 

Jihad Watch, and sites like Doug Wilson's that mock the Dalai Lama and Barack Obama are very inflammatory IMO.

 

The photo mocks both a religious figure and a candidate for president.

 

And these links represent a pattern of posting inflammatory links.

 

I'm all for free speech, and have never spoken against anyone expressing her/his own opinion but if someone has something to say, SAY IT, but stop with the inflammatory links!

 

Bill

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I have no idea the political biases (or not) of the following link, but I found it to be an interesting (rough) way to measure the relative experience on various issues of the candidates. . .

 

This site purports to be a database of the various candidates recorded opinions and actions on a wide range of issues.

 

ontheissues is usually a pretty good source. they sometimes post conflicting quotes from the same candidate tho, so it is only a beginning of one's research, not the be-all/ end-all of political info.

 

http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htm

 

I find it interesting that on many vital issues, their database is totally devoid of a record for her (in contrast to the other candidates listed).

 

 

yup. They certainly weren't prepared to offer her record. That we don't see THEM as having caught up w/ her record doesn't mean she is record-less :)

Everyone else has been in the national public spectrum for politics for YEARS. they are going to have WAY more info on the people who have been in the national spotlight --the only governors who have lots of info are the ones who HAVE been in the national spotlight. Others --like Palin-- have almost NO info. This is a site run by PEOPLE, and they can only collect so much info at a time. Palin was on the radar as a conservative choice, but was routinely dismissed since she was from Alaska. i expect they'll gather more info as the weeks go by. That's not "frightening" --that's just pointing out how not-up-to-date the site is yet. You can google for more info and get quite a bit.

 

 

I see the VP choice as the first presidential decision a potential Pres makes and I judge them to a large degree in whether or not the VP choice would be a wise choice to take over the presidency on Day#1. I really can't imagine Palin doing so.

 

But, VP, Now??? President?? Oh. . . My . . . Gosh.

 

Romney, McCain, Clinton, Obama. . .they (and many others) have records that support a reasonable expectation that they could do this job. I am amazed that the evidence shows that many good, even great, minds think that Palin has proven herself up to THIS job.

 

I wouldn't have chosen McCain for pres no matter his VP choice, but before he made this choice, I felt that he was at least qualified and up to the job (even if he would take the country in directions I disagree with). I have to say that I have rethought this in light of what I think is an irresponsible choice for VP. It makes me marvel at what on earth is going on in his head and his party. It just makes no sense to me.

 

and many would say that Obama --being considered to step into the Prez office on DAY ONE-- DOESN't have a record of actually DOING anything substantive. He certainly doesn't have the executive experience that Palin does.

 

I am not interested in experience, but in judgment and ideas and phiolosophy. I don't like McCain's OR Obama's. But if you can already admit that McCain had the experience, then that shows that he also probably had the experience to know what kind of politician CAN do the job. I'm betting they studied Palin a bit deeper than checking out her page at ontheissues....... ;)

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Jihad Watch, and sites like Doug Wilson's that mock the Dalai Lama and Barack Obama are very inflammatory IMO.

 

The photo mocks both a religious figure and a candidate for president.

 

And these links represent a pattern of posting inflammatory links.

 

I'm all for free speech, and have never spoken against anyone expressing her/his own opinion but if someone has something to say, SAY IT, but stop with the inflammatory links!

 

Bill

 

 

um, yeah, and SHE gets to decide whether a link is inflammatory, not you, and not me. you see mocking, others see it as political satire. Did you catch the thread about the New Yorker cartoon of Obama and Michele? SATIRE.

satire and mocking are far from "inflammatory."

 

but if you think a link is inflammatory, then report it! The link in question IS someone exercising their freedom of speech.

They are not calling for the killing of humans.

They are not inciting or condoning violence.

they are expressing their opinion and offering reasons for it.

YOU DISAGREE.

that is far from what most of us consider "inflammatory."

 

inflammatory:

1 : tending to excite anger, disorder, or tumult : seditious

2 : tending to inflame or excite the senses

3 : accompanied by or tending to cause inflammation

 

 

I'm gonna go w/ #1 --

sedition:

: incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority.

 

the PURPOSE of the site is not to incite YOU to disagree with them --it is designed as a site for those who DO agree. there is no language calling for insurrection against unlawful authority. It's not designed to cause tumult, and certainly not disorder. It's just not YOUR idea of "order."

 

We could say that you calling the site "hateful' is inflammatory in itself --you used that word to excite anger, right? anger at the contents of the site?

 

but no matter what you or I think, the proper course of action is to report the post, not whine about it or make decisions for SWB.

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but no matter what you or I think, the proper course of action is to report the post, not whine about it or make decisions for SWB.

 

On this point you are no doubt correct. I think I got "inflamed".

 

Bill (who is going with #2)

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but no matter what you or I think, the proper course of action is to report the post, not whine about it or make decisions for SWB.

 

Not to stick my nose where it doesn't belong... BUT... ;)

 

I can't count the number of times I've seen regular posters here call new posters on board rules that maybe they didn't realize they were breaking. Now everyone may have our own opinion of what constitutes an "inflammatory" link, but I don't think the comment Bill made was anything out of the ordinary from what I've seen for years on these boards.

 

In fact, even over on the "hunky movie star" thread, a couple people complained that pics of women were being posted, yet doing so is not even remotely against board rules. So, like I said, one poster letting another poster know they don't appreciate certain things is not far from the norm here, and certainly not deserving of a public scolding. :tongue_smilie: (withdrawing nose)

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and many would say that Obama --being considered to step into the Prez office on DAY ONE-- DOESN't have a record of actually DOING anything substantive. He certainly doesn't have the executive experience that Palin does.

 

I would argue that Obama does have executive experience. From the blog of Marc Andreesen (co-founder of Netscape):

 

We asked him directly [in early 2007], how concerned should we be that you haven't had meaningful experience as an executive -- as a manager and leader of people?

He said, watch how I run my campaign -- you'll see my leadership skills in action.

At the time, I wasn't sure what to make of his answer -- political campaigns are often very messy and chaotic, with a lot of turnover and flux; what conclusions could we possibly draw from one of those?

Well, as any political expert will tell you, it turns out that the Obama campaign has been one of the best organized and executed presidential campaigns in memory. Even Obama's opponents concede that his campaign has been disciplined, methodical, and effective across the full spectrum of activities required to win -- and with a minimum of the negative campaigning and attack ads that normally characterize a race like this, and with almost no staff turnover. By almost any measure, the Obama campaign has simply out-executed both the Clinton and McCain campaigns.

This speaks well to the Senator's ability to run a campaign, but speaks even more to his ability to recruit and manage a top-notch group of campaign professionals and volunteers -- another key leadership characteristic. When you compare this to the awe-inspiring discord, infighting, and staff turnover within both the Clinton and McCain campaigns up to this point -- well, let's just say it's a very interesting data point.

 

http://blog.pmarca.com/2008/03/an-hour-and-a-h.html

 

See also: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200806/obama-finance

 

I'm sure most here will dismiss this example of executive leadership, but I also think it's a very interesting data point.

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I would argue that Obama does have executive experience. From the blog of Marc Andreesen (co-founder of Netscape):

 

We asked him directly [in early 2007], how concerned should we be that you haven't had meaningful experience as an executive -- as a manager and leader of people?

He said, watch how I run my campaign -- you'll see my leadership skills in action.

 

I'm sure most here will dismiss this example of executive leadership, but I also think it's a very interesting data point.

 

I agree with you that it is an interesting data point, and that his remarkably savvy and civil campaign speaks volumes about Obama's executive leadership. Much as I admire him, however, I wouldn't equate running a fantastic political campaign with running a state, and certainly not with being the President of the United States. Frankly, I don't see a great deal of executive experience in either of the two major candidates or their sidekicks--er, vice presidential picks. Lots of experience of various kinds--but not much of that kind. :001_smile:

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I would argue that Obama does have executive experience. From the blog of Marc Andreesen (co-founder of Netscape):

 

We asked him directly [in early 2007], how concerned should we be that you haven't had meaningful experience as an executive -- as a manager and leader of people?

He said, watch how I run my campaign -- you'll see my leadership skills in action.

 

 

I think how Mr Obama ran his primary campaign is an excellent example of executive leadership. Look at the skill, and organization of his run.

 

And then contrast his campaign with Mr Mc Cain's, which went off-the-rails any number of times, which spent money like there was no tomorrow early on, was bloated with consultants and corporate lobbyists.

 

And which has now tossed aside any pretense of the "straight-talk" maverick Mc Cain in favor of turning the campaign over to the acolytes Karl Rove whose "smear and fear" tactics John Mc Cain once claimed to abhor.

 

I don't believe any fair-minded person would be able to deny Mr Obama has run a far more businesslike, efficient, team-building campaign than has John Mc Cain (like his politics, or not). Barak has leadership ability, where his opponent simply does not.

 

Bill

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I think the ability to pick the right people for the right job is MOST KEY in carrying out the duties of President.

 

Case in point- Hurricane Katrina. I don't blame Bush for the way it went because he didn't get down there and start doing what needed to be done himself- he shouldn't have had to. The people he appointed to handle disasters should have. I blame Bush for not appointing the right people to the job.

 

Now I am sitting and hoping that Bush learned from his mistakes, and that since it is an election year there will not be hungry, thirsty babies being carried by dead bodies left on the sidewalk if Gustav proves to be as dangerous as it could be.

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How much executive experience does Sen. McCain have?

 

 

none.

I was directly responding to the poster's acknowledgement that McCain definitely had more political experience than Obama [so discussing it didn't seem important], and their concern over the "experience" between Obama and Palin. If indeed experience is key for someone, then we can look at that record of experience between the two lacking the experience in question.

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I would argue that Obama does have executive experience. From the blog of Marc Andreesen (co-founder of Netscape):

 

We asked him directly [in early 2007], how concerned should we be that you haven't had meaningful experience as an executive -- as a manager and leader of people?

He said, watch how I run my campaign -- you'll see my leadership skills in action.

----

I'm sure most here will dismiss this example of executive leadership, but I also think it's a very interesting data point.

 

actually, i don't dismiss that as an important skill/experience, but if a republican candidate's only leadership /executive example was a campaign it would be guffawed off the net by most Democrats --kinda like Palin's ability to just govern a low-electoral state has been dismissed, lol. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/29/sarah-palin-obama-respons_n_122392.html

 

Even Chuck Schumer thinks that this VP pick should ease the criticisms of Obama's inexperience --except that it really only strengthens it: if Dems are THIS CONCERNED about a VP's one-heartbeat-from-the-presidency inexperience, they should be doubly concerned about the inexperience of the person who wants to specifically BE that heartbeat immediately.

 

 

I think how Mr Obama ran his primary campaign is an excellent example of executive leadership. Look at the skill, and organization of his run.

 

I don't believe any fair-minded person would be able to deny Mr Obama has run a far more businesslike, efficient, team-building campaign than has John Mc Cain (like his politics, or not). Barak has leadership ability, where his opponent simply does not.

 

I'm sure his campaign has been great. But i hafta agree w/ laylamcb.

Mitt Romney did a fantastic job in business --that doesn't mean he would do a great job AS PRESIDENT. and I've already said i don't think McCain would make a good Prez either.

 

I do think that in the week or so we'll start seeing more and more examples and details about Palin's experience, so i'll have to reserve more judgment until then.

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How much executive experience does Sen. McCain have?

 

 

He actually has quite a bit. He was in charge of a Navy Squadron. Before that, he was in other responsible leadership postiions in the Navy. Executive experience can come from all kinds of places, not just the elected government.

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I do think that in the week or so we'll start seeing more and more examples and details about Palin's experience, so i'll have to reserve more judgment until then.

 

Here you go:

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/31/16385/5462/317/581425

 

For many here, not all of the 75+ issues will be negatives. (In fact, some will be positives!)

 

I think her biggest problems will be her inexperience, the Bridge to Nowhere (she supported it until Congress pulled the plug on funding), Troopergate (abuse of executive power in an arguably good cause), and busting the town budget when she was mayor (mishandling a land deal and then eminent domain).

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