Nature vs nurture and "raised to be that way"

[SKL]

http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white

 

White teens are killed by cops at a rate of 1.47 per million. Blacks at a rate of 31.17 per million.

 

 

Well based on my reading of your linked article, people killed by black officers are more likely to be people of color than those killed by white officers.  So although nobody is denying blacks are more likely to be shot than whites, do we still call it "white privilege" when black cops' stats seem more anti-black than white cops' stats?

 

I'm not really sure what that has to do with the nature vs. nurture argument anyway.  The vast majority of people of all colors are not getting shot by cops, whether predisposed/nurtured to do x or y or z.

[SKL]

Black teens are 21 times more likely to be shot by the cops than white teens.

 

 

I found statistics for 2010 that showed black teens / young men were 18 times more likely to commit murder than white teens / young men.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/youthviolence/stats_at-a_glance/hr_age-race.html

 

Just laying out a stark statistic without context is not helpful.

 

Again, racism does still exist, but that is not the explanation for everything unpleasant.

[Tanaqui]

do we still call it "white privilege" when black cops' stats seem more anti-black than white cops' stats

 

Yes. We do. The privilege here is with the race of the victims. Or non-victims, rather.

 

Again, racism does still exist, but that is not the explanation for everything unpleasant.

 

Where did I - or anybody - say that it was?

 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

We all have. If the Romeikes had been anything but white, they would not have been put through years of fighting and all the Hell they went through to come to the US. 

 

The Romeikes, whatever colour they had been, as EU citizens had the right to get on a train to another EU country, and live and work there indefinitely.  In most cases, apart from the language issue (which they also encounter in the US) it's not that much harder than moving across a state line in the US.  They had the choice of several countries where homeschooling is legal.  If they had come to Scotland, they would not even have had to tell authorities that they were homeschooling - by law you don't have to register if you come from overseas.  

 

The asylum laws (in the US and other countries) exist for those in fear of their lives and who have no other options.  The Romeikes were not in that situation.  There has been much fear-mongering and misinformation around their story.

 

For background: I am an EU citizen who has worked in another EU country.  I also home educated my sons in Scotland for two years legally without having any contact with authorities.

 

L

[albeto.]

Respectfully, you don't see it because you aren't looking for it....

 

Good post, Quill. One thing that comes to my mind is that statistics don't make as much of an impression as personal anecdotes. One study I learned about showed that between learning facts and feeling like you "know" something about someone, the group that learned facts only were no more likely to change behavior six months later. People in the group that got to know something about someone were more likely to make a positive change (I forget the percentage - this was in regards to self breast exams and medical follow up six months after learning about the statistics or hearing personal testimony). Besides, we know statistics don't change minds due to a natural thought process identified and labeled as the backfire effect. It's not a terribly recent discovery, although we're learning more about the details of this mental defense system (One particularly pernicious manifestation of this is how we react to critics versus supporters — the phenomenon wherein, as the popular saying goes, our minds become “teflon for positive and velcro for negative.â€). It explains why, for example, despite the clear evidence in support of vaccination, anti-vaxers simply aren't persuaded. I think it explains why exposure of racism isn't really believed to be an accurate representation of reality. 

 

So I would encourage the women (and men) of color here to continue sharing their stories. When I was stopped by a police officer for not having the current registration on my car, it didn't occur to me to feel insecure in any way. Police don't have that connotation for me. I simply have never had that kind of experience. My kids were with me and they saw (and thus learned) my relaxed, casual attitude. But after we resolved our issue (including cracking jokes), it occurred to me to tell my kids the different experiences others might have had for the same incident. Those experiences were the ones I read here. I can picture in my mind a homeschooling mother being told to get out of her minivan, whereas I can't really picture statistical facts in my head. The facts matter, absolutely, and I'm so glad you shared them - they show your opinions were developed through facts and objective information. But I would thank the other posters for sharing their stories, and I hope they continue to do so. Maybe it will help chip away at those who don't see racism because they don't experience it, they don't imagine what it looks like, what it feels like. I'm grateful for the stories other posters have shared. I hope more people do. I think it's good for all of us to know. 

[Tsuga]

I wonder if the opinions of adoptive parents/families will tend to be different from those who are raising their biological kids.

 

I used to think that nurture was more important than I currently think it is (as an adoptive mom).

 

And I'm not saying that to excuse myself for not having perfect kids.  Actually my kids are pretty delightful most of the time, like every other kid.  But there are some traits that I can't imagine ever coming out of my family.  For example, my eldest has always been very interested in appearance / fashion.  It's like her favorite thing - but I'm the exact opposite (see the "frumpy" thread from some months ago).  There are lots of other examples too.  In comparison, my family of origin was somewhat diverse, but within a limited range, and you could always find some fairly close relative to attribute a behavior trait to.

 

Oh, I don't know--lots of us single parents can also see our kids' traits coming out too. I cannot believe how uncannily my daughter resembles her dad's side of the family--even traits he doesn't have and doesn't like! She does the exact same thing with her yoghurt as her cousin (stirs it endlessly until perfectly smooth). She has never met that cousin. It's a nervous thing. My dad, me and my daughter were all raised with a peanut butter sandwich in our lunch (note that I was raised by my mom, dad not home). Our siblings all eat it, but none of us liked it. When I told my mom that my daughter wouldn't eat peanut butter and I was loathe to buy more expensive proteins, she laughed and said I did that too and so did my dad (her MIL told her).

 

Funny because I always thought I was the weird one for not liking peanut butter. (But we all like peanuts.) There is definitely a genetic component to behavior that you can see in your own kids.

 

As for not being perfect... I hear being a homo sapien has something to do with that. ;)

[Guest]

Oh, I don't know--lots of us single parents can also see our kids' traits coming out too. I cannot believe how uncannily my daughter resembles her dad's side of the family--even traits he doesn't have and doesn't like! She does the exact same thing with her yoghurt as her cousin (stirs it endlessly until perfectly smooth). She has never met that cousin. It's a nervous thing. My dad, me and my daughter were all raised with a peanut butter sandwich in our lunch. Our siblings all eat it, but none of us liked it. When I told my mom that my daughter wouldn't eat peanut butter and I was loathe to buy more expensive proteins, she laughed and said I did that too and so did my dad (her MIL told her).

 

Funny because I always thought I was the weird one for not liking peanut butter. (But we all like peanuts.) There is definitely a genetic component to behavior that you can see in your own kids.

 

As for not being perfect... I hear being a homo sapien has something to do with that. ;)

So true. It amazes me when one of my kids does or says something exactly like me or dh, even without that explicit example. My dd is a remarkable artist. Although I very rarely draw a composition now, her drawing style, the media she prefers, and her relative strengths and weaknesses are just like mine at that age.

[SKL]

I have also noticed that kids' mature handwriting tends to be similar to their bio parents' handwriting, even though they were taught in school using very different methods.

[PeacefulChaos]

Oh, I really hope this doesn't derail into a privilege debate.  :(

 

Not trying to be rude.  

[Pronghorn]

I can see how much my brothers and I are alike physically and emotionally. We have the same sense of humor and like to do a lot of the same activities. 

One of my younger brothers adopted an infant girl, raised her, but she is most definitely not their child. She acts so differently, but has followed her birthmom and bio siblings( we know who they are, she does not). She has really been like them since she was old enough to have/show her personality. She has been nurtured in a household that is fairly quiet and conservative, but is living on and off the street, selling herself for drugs, and living with anyone who would give them to her. She had a daughter and the courts took her away from my niece and my brother adopted her. She is just like my brothers older daughter. even looks like her. Weird.

I think that there is a strong genetic link, that governs how we live, or prefer to live. i.e. introverted not extroverted,  some stuff is learned partying, but not the inclination. I think.

Well, she definitely IS their child, even if she did not become their child by birth. Perhaps she had pre-natal drug or alcohol exposure. Perhaps she has attachment problems. (Even those adopted at birth can experience trauma on separating from their birth mothers.) I know that the tendency toward addiction is inherited, but that doesn't mean everyone who has those genes becomes addicted.

 

As an adoptive mother and an adoptive sister, I just had to say that. Many people adopt kids from birthparents with problems and have a decent outcome. It is not all nature!

[Elisabet1]

Black teens are 21 times more likely to be shot by the cops than white teens.

 

Black males with no criminal record have as much chance of getting a callback for a job as white males who DO have a criminal record.

 

The mortality rate for black infants is double that of white infants.

 

These are all examples of white privilege - and they're not based on anecdotes, they're based on numbers.

 

 

If they had been Hispanic, fleeing for their lives, they might have been put in inadequate detention centers.

 

 

How do you know? What policy is this that pays for some students and not others?

 

 

Having privilege based on race does not mean you necessarily have privilege based on gender. Male privilege is a different thing. It is possible to be advantaged in one way and disadvantaged in another.

The National Merit..has lower cut offs for black and Hispanic. But the National Achievement has a much lower cut off, around 180. Texas A&M and Baylor University both gave scholarships for non-white. Rice University gave paid trips to their university, including airfare, only for "persons of color." This is very common and seen everywhere I looked during this college time. How can a wealthy black man be called disadvantaged, and have the red carpet rolled out for him and offered full rides in many places based on race, while a while women who grew up with nothing, in poverty, gets no help at all? IF the "privilege" is not based on race...then it is not called white privilege or black privilege or Asian privilege or whatever other term. If the privilege is race based....you can have more money for college, or airfare paid, if you are this race and not that, then it is called a racial privilege. 

[Elisabet1]

Respectfully, you don't see it because you aren't looking for it.

 

I am a white woman. I am confident that nobody ever looks at me while I am walking about and suspects I am in this country illegally. I can walk into any shop or store without people wondering if I am a criminal, a drug dealer, up to no good. If I walk into an upscale store, the staff assumes I am there to purchase things, not to steal them, or case the joint. If people make assumptions about my background or heritage based on how I present, they will almost always overestimate positive things about me, such as assuming I have obtained no less than a bachelor's degree.

 

Statistically, there is a shocking discrepancy between average white income and accumulated wealth vs. black income and wealth. A young, black male with no criminal record is less likely to be hired than a white male WITH a criminal record. Black unemployment rates are higher than for whites. Why is this? Are blacks just lazy moochers who won't work? Or is it more often they are shut out from many jobs when they leave a message and their voice indicates they are black?

 

I do not feel bad about being born White, but it is naive to think I have enjoyed NO privileges because I am white. Hell, I am plainly aware that I have enjoyed some privileges because I am slim and reasonably nice-looking.

 

In re: the bolded - you have no facts to assert this. You are merely assuming that your dd would have gotten money if she were a racial minority. Racial minorities are statistically less likely to gain admission, never mind paid for. Once in college, racial minorities are less likely to complete a degree program. Also, as I already said, blacks are less likely to accrue familial wealth. If you have no familial wealth, you are more likely to obtain grants, no matter what race you are.

 

Gender inequality is a whole 'nother subject, but in no way does it make it acceptable that black men were not permitted to vote or own property when white men were just because women of any race were also unfairly treated. The advantage has still belonged to whites of any gender, because if you were a white woman and your husband earned a lucrative living, you could still enjoy the benefits of his freedom and pass that benefit on to your children. If you were a black woman and your husband could not get reasonable work, because he was shut out by his skin color, you have now no wealth to enjoy, no leg-up benefit to pass to your children, AND you can't even go work yourself because of gender discrimination.

 

 

It is highly unlikely your parents had money because they were white. I am white. I grew up in poverty. How did that happen if it is being white that made it so you grew up with wealth? And how did my black boyfriend grow up with wealth-if only white people can be wealthy? If white people are not handed their wealth based on race, and all white people are not kept from poverty while all black people are not forced in to it, then it is not white privilege. It is very arrogant to think just because you are white, and privileged, all white people are privileged and all black people are poverty stricken and disadvantages. There are plenty of black people who grew up with everything you had, and plenty of white people who did not. This is not based on race.

[Elisabet1]

Respectfully, you don't see it because you aren't looking for it.

 

I am a white woman. I am confident that nobody ever looks at me while I am walking about and suspects I am in this country illegally. I can walk into any shop or store without people wondering if I am a criminal, a drug dealer, up to no good. If I walk into an upscale store, the staff assumes I am there to purchase things, not to steal them, or case the joint. If people make assumptions about my background or heritage based on how I present, they will almost always overestimate positive things about me, such as assuming I have obtained no less than a bachelor's degree.

 

 

 

You see it, because you want to see it, because you grew up white and you assume all white people have what you have, and black people do not. But I grew up in a much more diverse life and I have seen people off all races at all socioeconomic backgrounds. I have never seen a white person handed anything just for being white. I have, however, seen black and Hispanic people handed things just for being non-white. 

[Spryte]

Well, she definitely IS their child, even if she did not become their child by birth. Perhaps she had pre-natal drug or alcohol exposure. Perhaps she has attachment problems. (Even those adopted at birth can experience trauma on separating from their birth mothers.) I know that the tendency toward addiction is inherited, but that doesn't mean everyone who has those genes becomes addicted.

 

As an adoptive mother and an adoptive sister, I just had to say that. Many people adopt kids from birthparents with problems and have a decent outcome. It is not all nature!

 

I am so glad you said this.   :iagree:  She is absolutely their child.

 

Adoptive mom here.  Married to an adult adoptee.  

 

DS is very like his birthmother, whom we adore, and are privileged to know well.  I see it every day - physically, and in his talents.  There are parts of him that come from her, and her alone - and they make me smile. Probably parts from his birthfather, too, though we don't know him as well, so it's harder to identify.  And then, of course, there are aspects to DS that are clearly from us - from his environment, and his upbringing. There is a mix.  It's our job to see that he lives up to all of the potential he has, feeling loved and secure.  With DD, she's very much her own person right now.  I'm sure we'll see more of her birthparents as she grows.

 

One plus to open adoption is that we are aware of genetic tendencies and histories, so can act accordingly with regard to that knowledge.  

 

One small anecdote about the twin study, apropos of nothing but mild interest:  my mom is a (fraternal) twin.  She (lovingly) calls her twin her "evil twin."  There could not be too more different people on the planet.  In their high school yearbooks, in the "last will and testament" section it simply said "Spryte's mom and Spryte's aunt leave fighting."  As kids, researchers requested to study them (their parents refused).  Not only do they look different, they are different in every way imaginable.  During the last election, I was with them at a breakfast shop when a TV crew wanted to interview our table - and they had to laugh and refuse on the basis that bringing up politics between them would start WWIII. They are not your average twins, and throw a wrench into all the studies. :001_rolleyes:

[Tanaqui]

But I grew up in a much more diverse life and I have seen people off all races at all socioeconomic backgrounds. I have never seen a white person handed anything just for being white. I have, however, seen black and Hispanic people handed things just for being non-white.

 

Hi there! I have no idea how you, or Quill, or anybody else on this board grew up. I know how I grew up, and I know where I live now, and I certainly live in a neighborhood where I see "people of all races at all socioeconomic backgrounds", and my experience does not remotely sound like what you describe. At all.

 

If you insist on using personal anecdotes, mine match Quill's statement. So... that's two against one, and we win?

 

[Lisbeth]

What are the stats on Asians being shot by the police? Is it low? Why or why not? Is there also Asian privilege?

What is the mortality rate of Asian babies in the US?

Why is infant mortality higher for some? Is it the behavior of the parents? Are they denied care?

 

Back to the original question: I think most of our personalities come from nature.

 

ETA: I looked it up. Hispanic infant mortality rates are very similar to the white stat. Asians have a lower infant mortality rate. Why didn't white privilege affect them?

[LucyStoner]

I grew up a white girl with a black brother (same bio mother and my bio dad adopted him.) This gave me an interesting and vividly illustrated perspective on race. The examples I can give are numerous. I have most certainly benefited from white privilege on my way out of our impoverished childhood. I can't think of anything I have been denied on account of my skin color.

 

Also, personal anecdotes of racism and white priveldge are backed up by reams of data on everything from housing to employment to safety.  Same resume, same housing applications with white sounding and black sounding names do not get the same responses. 

[Ausmumof3]

What are the stats on Asians being shot by the police? Is it low? Why or why not? Is there also Asian privilege?

What is the mortality rate of Asian babies in the US?

Why is infant mortality higher for some? Is it the behavior of the parents? Are they denied care?

 

Back to the original question: I think most of our personalities come from nature.

 

ETA: I looked it up. Hispanic infant mortality rates are very similar to the white stat. Asians have a lower infant mortality rate. Why didn't white privilege affect them?

Probably because although there are stereotypes attached to Asians they are a different set of stereotypes.

[BrookValley.]

You see it, because you want to see it, because you grew up white and you assume all white people have what you have, and black people do not. But I grew up in a much more diverse life and I have seen people off all races at all socioeconomic backgrounds. I have never seen a white person handed anything just for being white. I have, however, seen black and Hispanic people handed things just for being non-white. 

 

This is just a personal anecdote, but I *have* definitely been handed things just because I am white, the most notable being a job. I was expressly told I was being offered a particular job because they "needed to start getting some white folks in here to lighten it up a bit." True story.

 

There's a lot more I'd like to comment, but I'm short on time.

[albeto.]

You see it, because you want to see it, because you grew up white and you assume all white people have what you have, and black people do not. But I grew up in a much more diverse life and I have seen people off all races at all socioeconomic backgrounds. I have never seen a white person handed anything just for being white. I have, however, seen black and Hispanic people handed things just for being non-white. 

 

On the flip side, you might consider, have you ever seen a person denied anything (autonomy, liberty, life) because of their color? Notice the discrepancy between races?

[Amira]

I saw white privilege when we rented an apartment in NJ.  When our landlord was at our house arranging for our water heater to be replaced, she laughed while she was telling the water heater guy that she told people she had no vacancies if they "sounded black" on the phone.  I knew white privileged existed, despite growing up in an extremely white area (because I read widely), but I'd never experienced for myself being able to rent an apartment simply because of the color of my skin. I still remember how shocked I was, even 17 years later. I'm not shocked anymore when I see it. I wish I were.

 

There have been a few times that I've been followed around a store by employees when I've been overseas and I HATE it.  I cannot imagine being followed in the US and I would either never shop there again or speak to a manager.  It is because I am so sure that wouldn't happen that I would do something about it if it did. But you can't really boycott every store in the neighborhood if you're followed everywhere.

 

The stories Japanese and Indian friends tell me about growing up in a very white area are appalling. 

[Elisabet1]

On the flip side, you might consider, have you ever seen a person denied anything (autonomy, liberty, life) because of their color? Notice the discrepancy between races?

Yes, I was denied money for college and had to take out student loans because I am white. My daughter was also denied money she would have been given if she were not white. My black boyfriend was called a racial slur once during the years I dated him. However, I lived in an apartment complex and a black group that moved in behind us (lots of adults, so, not a family so much as a group of black adults) and would say nasty things to my children and me because of our race. My brother's wife is Hispanic. Her brother's kids told my kids that they were not really related because they are white. When my oldest was a baby and having a lot of health problems (he was seriously medically needy) I tried going to the social services office and after waiting all day to see a worker, I saw a black worker who immediately dismissed my case saying services were not for white people. She was wrong. But once she stamped her rejection, it took months of appealing while my son was unable to get the medical care he needed. I saw a police officer go harder on a woman for being black, who I had reported for harassing my children. While the woman was racially motivated in her attack on my child, the police officer made a comment to me about black people being like that and difficult. I was very off put by what he said because he was making a racial remark too. However, she was attacking my child because my child is white. Also, I have seen less qualified non-white people get in to more selective schools. The average black person admitted to Harvard has lower average SAT scores. There was a situation with the fire department where black people with lower test scores were promoted while the white people were not. And I have heard from some military families of problems they have had..white families, based on their race. I would not still be paying student loans if I were not white. And my daughter would be in college right now, fully paid for, if she were not white. So yes, I have seen people denied things based on race. I have never seen anyone denied autonomy, liberty, or life based on race. Oh yeah, my daughter was sexually harassed by a black male. This was about gender, because the public schools tolerated sexual harassment. But she was white and it was a black male. I won't pretend it was tolerated because he was black, because I saw the white males bragging about what they were doing to girls online too. I do know that the black mother of the boy tried to claim I was only complaining about him because he was black, when in reality, the black boy was the one who was harassing my girl. Regardless of what the white boys were doing, it was the black one on my daughter. The black boy was allowed to get away with it, by the white principal and the black principal. 

 

And even in hiring...most of the principals in our school district are either men  of any race, or they are women of color. White women have a hard time getting jobs higher up in education here. As a woman, you have very little chance being hired if you are white. 

[Elisabet1]

I saw white privilege when we rented an apartment in NJ.  When our landlord was at our house arranging for our water heater to be replaced, she laughed while she was telling the water heater guy that she told people she had no vacancies if they "sounded black" on the phone.  I knew white privileged existed, despite growing up in an extremely white area (because I read widely), but I'd never experienced for myself being able to rent an apartment simply because of the color of my skin. I still remember how shocked I was, even 17 years later. I'm not shocked anymore when I see it. I wish I were.

 

There have been a few times that I've been followed around a store by employees when I've been overseas and I HATE it.  I cannot imagine being followed in the US and I would either never shop there again or speak to a manager.  It is because I am so sure that wouldn't happen that I would do something about it if it did. But you can't really boycott every store in the neighborhood if you're followed everywhere.

 

The stories Japanese and Indian friends tell me about growing up in a very white area are appalling. 

One person making a racist remarks is not white privilege. If it were, they privilege of every single race exists. There are racists in every race, every gender, every culture. It is not called privilege.

[Amira]

One person making a racist remarks is not white privilege. If it were, they privilege of every single race exists. There are racists in every race, every gender, every culture. It is not called privilege.

 

A landlord not showing an apartment to someone solely because that person was assumed to be black, but being willing to show the apartment to a person that doesn't sound black is illegal and an obvious example of white privilege in my opinion. Those aren't just racist remarks.

 

I have a friend who prefers the term "advantages" to "privilege."  I cannot for one second doubt that I have had major advantages in life because I am white.  Even when were were living below the poverty line for a number of years, I still had those advantages.  My privilege may not work to my personal advantage every single time, but as the article Dialectica posted above shows, there are a lot of things I don't have to worry about because I am white.

[Guest]

What are the stats on Asians being shot by the police? Is it low? Why or why not? Is there also Asian privilege?

What is the mortality rate of Asian babies in the US?

Why is infant mortality higher for some? Is it the behavior of the parents? Are they denied care?

 

Back to the original question: I think most of our personalities come from nature.

 

ETA: I looked it up. Hispanic infant mortality rates are very similar to the white stat. Asians have a lower infant mortality rate. Why didn't white privilege affect them?

Prejudicial views about Asian Americans are overwhelmingly positive. Asians are also the highest-earning minority; wealth plays a significant role in healthcare. asians are also highly likely to be two-parent families. Black Americans a highly likely to be single-parent families, which also affects wealth accumulation for the negative.

[Tanaqui]

Yes, I was denied money for college and had to take out student loans because I am white. My daughter was also denied money she would have been given if she were not white.

 

You've said this. I, for one, am interested in knowing how you know this to be the case. What policy, or what grant, or what money is it that you would have gotten?

 

I saw a police officer go harder on a woman for being black, who I had reported for harassing my children.

 

You are conflating structural racism with racial bigotry. Anybody can be a bigot, however, the system is set up to help some people over others.

 

The average black person admitted to Harvard has lower average SAT scores.

 

 

Lower average SAT scores than whom? White people? Sure - but whites have lower average SATs than Asians or Indians. How fortunate that SAT scores are not the only measure of qualification! Otherwise you probably would not have had a shot.

 

There was a situation with the fire department where black people with lower test scores were promoted while the white people were not.

 

 

Which fire department is this?

 

I would not still be paying student loans if I were not white. And my daughter would be in college right now, fully paid for, if she were not white.

 

 

You said that already. In this very comment, in fact.

 

I have never seen anyone denied autonomy, liberty, or life based on race.

 

 

Black people are more likely to get convicted of the same crimes than white people, and once convicted more likely to get harsher sentences and a lot less likely to get parole. Again, that has nothing to do with what I have personally witnessed, and everything to do with the numbers. If we based things on what you or I, personally, have seen then we'd have to believe everybody in the world speaks English because everybody I know does!

 

Oh yeah, my daughter was sexually harassed by a black male.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not gonna quote the rest of that, because it's vile. If you don't think it's relevant, why are you spending so many sentences on it? That's some Birth of a Nation garbage.

 

And even in hiring...most of the principals in our school district are either men  of any race, or they are women of color.

 

 

What district is that?

[Guest]

You see it, because you want to see it, because you grew up white and you assume all white people have what you have, and black people do not. But I grew up in a much more diverse life and I have seen people off all races at all socioeconomic backgrounds. I have never seen a white person handed anything just for being white. I have, however, seen black and Hispanic people handed things just for being non-white.

No, I do NOT assume all white people have what I have. I GREW UP POOR! My folks are still poor. I have cousins who are what is nicely termed "Appalachian Poor," and not nicely termed "White Trash." Currently, I live in the D.C. Suburbs and, while my actual county is quite homogenous at 93% white, I live right next to the county border. The towns I shop in are very diverse. The school my teens attend is nationally noted for its diverse population. Within a thirty-mile-radious of my home, I can see heavy populations of: Hispanics, Asians, Blacks, Middle-Easterners, and Whites; incredibly wealthy businesspeople and professionals, dirt-poor rural folks; Catholics, Protestants, Jewish people, Muslims and people of no religion. I know wealthy blacks and piss-poor whites. I am quite familiar with diverse populations.

 

Having said all that, I have witnessed overt racism many times. One law firm where I worked had only white, male, Christian attorneys. The single black employee was the "mail boy." Yes, that was his title. A thirty-year-old black man was called the mail boy. They would never have hired a black man for a "real" job. I was told once that there was no way they would hire a female attorney.

[Tsuga]

Okay, this is really going to derail the thread.

 

Honestly, if you aren't aware that there is serious, entrenched economic and race-based barriers in this country, I'm not sure anything on a message board will convince you.

 

Moreover, and I say this with 100% certainty, federal aid based on the FAFSA is dispensed based on income and first-generation status and not based on race. There is no federal program, other than outreach (which has no funds attached) at the institution where I work that targets people based on the color of their skin. It is 100% based on income and first-generation college status. White students are NOT disadvantaged in that sense.

 

To be perfectly clear, there is no race box on the FAFSA which is the one and only form that determines whether or not you get federal aid, including subsidized loans. End of story. If you think there is such a box, and that it affects awards, please see the FAFSA. Here, I'll let you look at it yourself:

 

https://fafsa.ed.gov/fotw1415/pdf/PdfFafsa14-15.pdf

 

In fact, if you look at federal programs, all of them are aimed at alleviating poverty and I couldn't find a single one that gives money to people because of the color of their skin. Can you find me one? I'd love to see it. I'm not white so maybe I can get some free money I've been missing. (I know a lot of black people who would really like their Black People Money, as they jokingly refer to this racist belief that there is all this free money around for non-white-people. So let me know, okay?)

 

I will say something about Hispanics and health. Hispanic people tend to be poorer and less well-educated than almost any group in the country. But we also live longer and have healthier babies. My hypothesis about Hispanic families is that they (I say "they" because I live near my white mom's family so I don't share this trait) live near extended family--as do many Asians. Fascinatingly, studies have linked child and maternal well-being to the presence of a grandmother. (My mom loves those studies, LOL.) But this is all just to say that there are tradeoffs in life and different groups of people have different advantages. Hispanic people have an advantage that African Americans, at least those descended from slaves, lack, which is a common language that supports a common dialogue. Of course it's not that simple.

 

This doesn't mean that Hispanic and Asian people don't face other barriers. Asians are famously under-represented in politics, and ridiculously under-represented when you look at the data by income. Why is that?

 

The fact is that societies are very complex. There has never been, to my knowledge, a perfectly just society on the face of the Earth. Human history is a long tale of jingoism, sexism, tribalism, sectarianism and violence. So I am not trying to single out the United States or North America or white people as some particularly racist group. For every minority group and majority group in the US, there is some homeland that was deeply divided not so long ago--and which may be in the midst of racial or sectarian violence right now.

 

From my perspective, poverty is a huge driver of inequality, and I was somehow saddened but not shocked to hear a Harvard boy once make a joke about Jews--in the presence of a Jewish man. It's not all about race. It's about inequality and class and all kinds of things. The point is to realize that this is just not a meritocracy and we aren't all coming de novo out of our moms, to equal services, equal perceptions.

[LucyStoner]

 And my daughter would be in college right now, fully paid for, if she were not white.

 

Really?  Do you think having a college scholarship would have meant your daughter would have had the emotional fortitude to not drop out of school the first week because of a bad roommate match?  She would have likely forfieted the scholarship based on your scores of recent posts. It seems you are, like so many with your opinion, blaming your family's problems on racially based cop-outs. That kind of blame game is tedious.

 

[Guest]

It is highly unlikely your parents had money because they were white. I am white. I grew up in poverty. How did that happen if it is being white that made it so you grew up with wealth? And how did my black boyfriend grow up with wealth-if only white people can be wealthy? If white people are not handed their wealth based on race, and all white people are not kept from poverty while all black people are not forced in to it, then it is not white privilege. It is very arrogant to think just because you are white, and privileged, all white people are privileged and all black people are poverty stricken and disadvantages. There are plenty of black people who grew up with everything you had, and plenty of white people who did not. This is not based on race.

I am not saying all white people have wealth, while all black people are poor. I am saying, data indicates that white Americans both earn more income AND accumulate more wealth than black Americans. That isn't anecdotal; it is verifiable data. My parents are NOT wealthy. I grew up as one of the poorest people I knew. But I also had access to some advantages that I did not earn; they came my way because of what I look like.

[Guest]

The fact is that societies are very complex. There has never been, to my knowledge, a perfectly just society on the face of the Earth. Human history is a long tale of jingoism, sexism, tribalism, sectarianism and violence. So I am not trying to single out the United States or North America or white people as some particularly racist group. For every minority group and majority group in the US, there is some homeland that was deeply divided not so long ago--and which may be in the midst of racial or sectarian violence right now.

Interestingly, my son was watching a show on the Science channel tonight, while I was preparing dinner. It was showing how even babies under a year old, show preference for like-minded "people." They showed a study in which puppets would say, "Oh, I looove to eat Graham Crackers!" While a different puppet would say, "Yuck! i don't like to eat Graham Crackers!" The babies, when given the choice to play with either puppet, wanted the puppet who liked and disliked the same foods they did. Quite fascinating.

 

I do think it is human nature to prefer others who are the most like us and not so much those who are dissimilar. Perhaps this had an evolutionary function, in identifying "others," about whose intentions we could not be certain. But it is a great thing that, on the whole, people are moving towards greater equality and acceptance; continuously (as a whole) progressing towards a future in which maybe, maybe we are all just humans.

[albeto.]

Yes, I was denied money for college and had to take out student loans because I am white. My daughter was also denied money she would have been given if she were not white. My black boyfriend was called a racial slur once during the years I dated him. However, I lived in an apartment complex and a black group that moved in behind us (lots of adults, so, not a family so much as a group of black adults) and would say nasty things to my children and me because of our race. My brother's wife is Hispanic. Her brother's kids told my kids that they were not really related because they are white. When my oldest was a baby and having a lot of health problems (he was seriously medically needy) I tried going to the social services office and after waiting all day to see a worker, I saw a black worker who immediately dismissed my case saying services were not for white people. She was wrong. But once she stamped her rejection, it took months of appealing while my son was unable to get the medical care he needed. I saw a police officer go harder on a woman for being black, who I had reported for harassing my children. While the woman was racially motivated in her attack on my child, the police officer made a comment to me about black people being like that and difficult. I was very off put by what he said because he was making a racial remark too. However, she was attacking my child because my child is white. Also, I have seen less qualified non-white people get in to more selective schools. The average black person admitted to Harvard has lower average SAT scores. There was a situation with the fire department where black people with lower test scores were promoted while the white people were not. And I have heard from some military families of problems they have had..white families, based on their race. I would not still be paying student loans if I were not white. And my daughter would be in college right now, fully paid for, if she were not white. So yes, I have seen people denied things based on race. I have never seen anyone denied autonomy, liberty, or life based on race. Oh yeah, my daughter was sexually harassed by a black male. This was about gender, because the public schools tolerated sexual harassment. But she was white and it was a black male. I won't pretend it was tolerated because he was black, because I saw the white males bragging about what they were doing to girls online too. I do know that the black mother of the boy tried to claim I was only complaining about him because he was black, when in reality, the black boy was the one who was harassing my girl. Regardless of what the white boys were doing, it was the black one on my daughter. The black boy was allowed to get away with it, by the white principal and the black principal. 

 

And even in hiring...most of the principals in our school district are either men  of any race, or they are women of color. White women have a hard time getting jobs higher up in education here. As a woman, you have very little chance being hired if you are white. 

 

It's almost like there's a conspiracy by all the marginalized groups in the nation to stop being marginalized. How distressing for you. 

[Tsuga]

But it is a great thing that, on the whole, people are moving towards greater equality and acceptance; continuously (as a whole) progressing towards a future in which maybe, maybe we are all just humans.

 

:grouphug:

[Melissa in Australia]

Well, she definitely IS their child, even if she did not become their child by birth. Perhaps she had pre-natal drug or alcohol exposure. Perhaps she has attachment problems. (Even those adopted at birth can experience trauma on separating from their birth mothers.) I know that the tendency toward addiction is inherited, but that doesn't mean everyone who has those genes becomes addicted.

 

As an adoptive mother and an adoptive sister, I just had to say that. Many people adopt kids from birthparents with problems and have a decent outcome. It is not all nature!

 

thank you

[SKL]

The racial privilege thing probably varies regionally.  Where I live, there are many programs that reward or require preferential treatment for blacks / minorities.  It isn't just a few little things to partially make up for [other states'] slavery and Jim Crow.  It's everything that involves any breaks or incentives, most public hiring, educational opportunities, government hiring of contractors, politicians, and more.  It's expensive to be white in my county.  And black people haven't been underrepresented here for decades.  Most educated white people will not complain - frankly we aren't going to starve either way - but blue-collar folks who really need a job (or would like to go to college but can't afford it) are honestly getting screwed.

 

And yes I and other non-black people have been targeted as crime victims because of our race.  It's like we are being personally blamed for whatever hard times the harasser / rapist / robber is having; I wonder where they got that idea.

[aggieamy]

Finally, and I am seriously asking this, what the heck does SHAVING have to do with being liberal, conservative, or anything? Well, don't answer that because that's already getting into politics.

 

Let me just say, on behalf of socialist heathen liberals everywhere, shaving is an extremely unreliable way to identify pinko-commies. I should know, I'm one and I've gone through all sorts of different phases and they haven't kicked me out of a Woody Guthrie sing-along yet!

 

So whatever your issues are with that, there is no need to attribute it to political beliefs. It more likely has to do with preferences that have no business being discussed on a family-friendly message board.

 

I was wondering that too.  Much to the chagrin of my DH my legs haven't been within 10 feet of a razor in a few weeks and nobody is going around ripping the "I *heart* Ronald Reagan" sticker off my Mercedes station wagon.  

 

I wonder if the opinions of adoptive parents/families will tend to be different from those who are raising their biological kids.

 

I used to think that nurture was more important than I currently think it is (as an adoptive mom).

 

And I'm not saying that to excuse myself for not having perfect kids.  Actually my kids are pretty delightful most of the time, like every other kid.  But there are some traits that I can't imagine ever coming out of my family.  For example, my eldest has always been very interested in appearance / fashion.  It's like her favorite thing - but I'm the exact opposite (see the "frumpy" thread from some months ago).  There are lots of other examples too.  In comparison, my family of origin was somewhat diverse, but within a limited range, and you could always find some fairly close relative to attribute a behavior trait to.

 

Another adoptive mother here too.  DS is too young to know much about BUT I will say that DD is the absolute clone of me.  She and I share no genetics and yet there she sits my twin. That could very well be an outlier though.  

 

Well, she definitely IS their child, even if she did not become their child by birth. Perhaps she had pre-natal drug or alcohol exposure. Perhaps she has attachment problems. (Even those adopted at birth can experience trauma on separating from their birth mothers.) I know that the tendency toward addiction is inherited, but that doesn't mean everyone who has those genes becomes addicted.

 

As an adoptive mother and an adoptive sister, I just had to say that. Many people adopt kids from birthparents with problems and have a decent outcome. It is not all nature!

 

Thank you.  I was feeling discouraged reading this thread.  We know very little about DS's paternal birth family because his birth father was adopted.  (What does that say about his background?!?!)  What we do know about his birth father is negative ... low ambition, cheater, smokes pot.  His birth mother is really a wonderful amazing person though and so is her family.  I guess I can hope he takes after her and not just give up right now, right?

[LucyStoner]

One small anecdote about the twin study, apropos of nothing but mild interest: my mom is a (fraternal) twin. She (lovingly) calls her twin her "evil twin." There could not be too more different people on the planet. In their high school yearbooks, in the "last will and testament" section it simply said "Spryte's mom and Spryte's aunt leave fighting." As kids, researchers requested to study them (their parents refused). Not only do they look different, they are different in every way imaginable. During the last election, I was with them at a breakfast shop when a TV crew wanted to interview our table - and they had to laugh and refuse on the basis that bringing up politics between them would start WWIII. They are not your average twins, and throw a wrench into all the studies. :001_rolleyes:

I thought most twin studies delving into nature vs. nurture look at identical twins raised apart? Most fraternal twins I know don't seem any more or less alike their twin than any two siblings.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Elisabet1's post on this page has been reported by several people. I agree that some of the statements in the post are racist and offensive. Deleting it would force me to remove the responses, though, and several of those are valuable. So I'm going to close the thread instead and ask that you take any further discussion to PM.

 

SWB