(The) beheading in Moore, OK

[Katy]

He was apparently obsessed with ISIS, according to his facebook page.

 

http://kfor.com/2014/09/25/reports-police-respond-to-possible-shooting-near-moore-grocery-store/

 

 

eta: It appears the linked video has changed a few times. And Brietbart has reported he was fired for debating coworkers that certain women deserved to be stoned to death, but Brietbart is...  ...perhaps fairly political is the best way to put it.  More to the right wing than Fox news, perhaps.  I can't seem to find that reported elsewhere.

[Outdoorsy Type]

People might be mentioning his religion, because he had recently been trying to convert people, and his method of killing was similar extremists. Let me say this, though. I believe that you should feel at peace in the U.S. and I'm sorry if you feel or are at risk for any reason. I have a busting headache and I'm sorry if I have come across too harsh.

[Pen]

Whoa. I wish I hadn't read this thread, especially not at bedtime.

 

Peace, safety, and love to you all. Sweet dreams, or good morning depending on where in the world you may be.

[LibraryLover]

A beheading is a bold statement. Truly, he was ill. How horrible it all is. These poor families. :(

[momacacia]

Well, I can change the topic. Thank God, the COO had a gun and stopped this guy!

[creekland]

There was a horrible double murder in my news area this summer, and it was reported as decapitation. I skimmed the story and didn't read the gruesome details, but "decapitated" was in the headline.

 

My guess is that they would use beheading now that it has become the word of choice by the news media.  In the summer was before this happened.    It all depends upon whether they are looking for sales from the shock factor or whether they feel they will get more sales appealing to "family friendly" content.  $$ tend to rule.  In the summer they probably didn't even consider the word beheading as it's rarely used in this country (or was rarely used anyway).

 

ISIS = Islam in a similar way that Westboro Baptist = Christian IMO.

 

But yes, I do worry about copycats - not really personally worry (it won't likely affect my life) but a general sorts feeling that we will hear of far more beheadings or attempts in the future - just like school shootings.  There are way too many lunatics out there.  It wouldn't even surprise me if a "Christian" were to do similar to a "Muslim" just to "get even."  It's a sad state of affairs out there and I don't really see an easy answer for fixing it.  Lunatics have been around since the beginning of time.  Just now they have new ideas.

 

As I mentioned in another thread... I used to think it took all types to make the world go round.  Now that I'm older I'm convinced the world would be much better off without certain types.  (And I'm NOT using a broadbrush against any religion with that statement - just against any sort of terrorist behind any label of their choice.)

[suzybluecheese]

Based on the news story I just read I tend to believe this was more about mental instability or mental illness than religious affiliation. I've got a feeling this guy could just as easily have converted to any other religious group and reacted like this.

 

Right.  To me, it brings to mind the Christian woman who drowned her children in the bathtub to save their souls. It has less to do with her religious affiliation than with her mental illness.

[poppy]

Poppy, you missed a distinction that the poster made pretty clear.  She was comparing the founders of the two religions (Jesus and Muhammed) and their own views and teachings. 

 

She stated clearly that she did not want to compare or speculate on the supposed validity of the "followers" (be it crusaders or ISIS) of those religions and judge (my word) whether they indeed represented true followers of religion. 

 

 

Baloney.  She's talking about how the founders fundamentally influenced the faiths, and painting Mohammad as a man of violence and Jesus as a man of peace, and drawing conclusions about the followers. I'll just quote: I think there is a history with Islam that would lend itself to associations with beheadings and murders that were sanctioned (if not committed) by Mohammed himself. When the founder of the religion is himself associated with beheading his enemies, it makes one believe there is indeed a connection. There are 1400 years of this practice recorded in the Muslim world. And yet, there are still many peaceful Muslims.

 

Beheadings are fundamentally Muslim "and yet" there are peaceful Muslims. 

That is one heck of an inflammatory statement. 

Especially when put in contrast to a faith that has a many thousand year history of conquest, genocide, slavery, torture.

 

All of which is really irrelevant to this tragedy.

[TeacherZee]

This discussion makes me think of this scene from the show The West Wing. (Watch the whole thing)

 

[poppy]

Oh man, that was the Very Special Episode that they put on right after September 11.  I never liked that episode, but, seeing it does bring back memories.

[Aelwydd]

An Islamic beheading? Does that mean it was like halal?? As opposed to those haram beheadings by atheists and Buddhists.

 

Seriously, though, crazy person is crazy. I feel for the victim's family and friends.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

As an outsider to Islam I think it is very difficult to know what the true tenants of the belief system are. There are many sources that tout facts that are considered myth by other sources. From a simple search I came up with the following results to "Islam and beheading"

 

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SKM40715.htm

 

http://www.orthodoxislam.org/beheading-in-islam.html

 

http://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/943/where-do-we-get-the-idea-of-beheading-stoning-and-hand-mutilation-in-islam

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/jun/24/20040624-121737-2912r/?page=all

 

How does one go about finding credible information regarding Islam and the use of beheading as punishment?

[8circles]

As an outsider to Islam I think it is very difficult to know what the true tenants of the belief system are. There are many sources that tout facts that are considered myth by other sources. From a simple search I came up with the following results to "Islam and beheading"

 

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SKM40715.htm

 

http://www.orthodoxislam.org/beheading-in-islam.html

 

http://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/943/where-do-we-get-the-idea-of-beheading-stoning-and-hand-mutilation-in-islam

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/jun/24/20040624-121737-2912r/?page=all

 

How does one go about finding credible information regarding Islam and the use of beheading as punishment?

 

Do you think Christianity is any different?

[Guest]

I think people read the verses in the Koran that sound like they call for violence against non-believers.  I'm not trying to start anything, but this is what the issue is: 

 

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

 

Here were a couple that stood out to me from the above link (there are many more):

 

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

 

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". 

 

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"  

 

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

 

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." 

 

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

 

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

 

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while.  Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.

 

 

[Guest]

News report:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/09/27/critics-blast-authorities-for-treating-oklahoma-beheading-as-case-workplace/

 

Critics blast authorities for treating beheading as case of workplace violence

[poppy]

As an outsider to Islam I think it is very difficult to know what the true tenants of the belief system are. There are many sources that tout facts that are considered myth by other sources. From a simple search I came up with the following results to "Islam and beheading"

 

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SKM40715.htm

 

http://www.orthodoxislam.org/beheading-in-islam.html

 

http://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/943/where-do-we-get-the-idea-of-beheading-stoning-and-hand-mutilation-in-islam

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/jun/24/20040624-121737-2912r/?page=all

 

How does one go about finding credible information regarding Islam and the use of beheading as punishment?

You could listen to people who are Muslim  who have already replied to you.

Or, as with anything on the internet, if you want to find something to support your assumptions, you can.

I can very easily find sources about how the God of the Christian bible is pro-genocide. *Shrug*.  It's the internet.

[Guest]

Like the Bible though, we have to read the entire thing, not cherry pick, and we also have to read it in a cultural and historical context.

 

I'm atheist, so I'm not an apologist for any religion. But we can't expect people not to cherry pick the Bible and then turn around and cherry pick another culture's holy book, kwim ?

 

I think we have to be honest about what each text is actually saying, though.  I understand the complaint that says everyone has to be politically correct, which in turn, makes it difficult to question such verses without being offensive.

[Word Nerd]

I've seen stories that use beheaded, decapitated, and severed, some in the same story. All of those words are accurate ways to refer to this crime. The cause of death is unusual and newsworthy. We aren't horrified because it's sensationalistic for the media to say what happened or because they told us to fixate on it; we're horrified because it is horrifying act of violence.

[*Lulu*]

Like the Bible though, we have to read the entire thing, not cherry pick, and we also have to read it in a cultural and historical context.

 

I'm atheist, so I'm not an apologist for any religion. But we can't expect people not to cherry pick the Bible and then turn around and cherry pick another culture's holy book, kwim ?

Except a whole lot of cultural Christianity is based on cherry picking. I can sort of see where people within that system would approach Islamic texts in the same way.

 

Doesn't make it right, but it does make sense. I actually just had a sort if light bulb moment about it today when I was trying to figure out why some of my family approaches Islam in the way they do.

[Guest]

Well, can anyone explain what those verses mean if they are not to be taken as written?

[poppy]

Oh please, let's don't play "find offensive and terrible things from each other's sacred texts".  It's really a vile game.
 

[umsami]

I think people read the verses in the Koran that sound like they call for violence against non-believers.  I'm not trying to start anything, but this is what the issue is: 

 

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

 

Here were a couple that stood out to me from the above link (there are many more):

 

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

 

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". 

 

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"  

 

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

 

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." 

 

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

 

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

 

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while.  Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.

 

I call BS as to not trying to start something.  You're posting from a site whose sole purpose is to discredit Islam.  Don't tell me you didn't know that.  

 

The Qur'an, just like the Bible, should be read in context.  One line or one paragraph can be taken out of context quite easily…especially if you realize that during Muhammad's lifetime, there were lots of battles and tribal issues going on.  Unlike the Bible, the historical record is very clear as to what was going on when the verses were revealed.  I'm not going to do your research for you, as honestly, I can tell that you don't give hoot.  It's not hidden.  It's easy to see when certain verses were revealed and why.  

 

BTW, there are even sites that answer the site you posted to.  

 

I recommend Reza Aslan's book, "No god but God" to put everything into context.

 

As to how to treat nonbelievers, the document I linked prior, written by scholars talks about how to treat non-believers.  It's all based on the Qur'an.  You can read the executive summary….and then you can go through the actual document to see the Islamic reasoning behind it.  It's in English, too….but don't worry, if you think it's some lie, you can read it in Arabic as well.   http://lettertobaghdadi.com  An excerpt.

 

"

1. 5-  It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

2. 6-  It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

3. 7-  It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to

   kill journalists and aid workers.

4. 8-  Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose

   and without the right rules of conduct.

5. 9-  It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares

   disbelief.

6. 10-  It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the

   Scripture’.

7. 11-  It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.

8. 12-  The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.

9. 13-  It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

10. 14-  It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.

11. 15-  It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.

12. 16-  It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud) without following the correct

    procedures that ensure justice and mercy. "

 

As to your post, there are sites that go through similar Biblical verses which are equally disturbing.  However, as it would be intentionally misleading and hateful to post them, I'm not going to do so.

 

Next Saturday is the start of the Muslim holiday of Eid-ul-Adha.  We commemorate the story in the Bible and the Qur'an regarding Abrahim/Ibrahim and his son.  I'm sure you (and others) would be welcome at your local mosque or Islamic center.  Often times, they hold it in a park or someplace bigger as we have lots of cultural Muslims too who show up just for holidays (like Easter/Christmas-only Christians).   There is usually food after…bounce houses for the kids, etc.  Why not stop by and see some real live Muslims so that you're not so scared about the faith.  The sermons are always either in English or in a language, followed by English (English is the default in the Muslim American community, because Muslims come from so many countries.)  Be forewarned though that many communities have a fundraising talk in an effort to get the holiday-only Muslims to donate.  Muslims really aren't the boogie men you see portrayed.  Come out and meet some real life ones.  Nobody is going to try and harm you.  

[zoobie]

 

News report:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/09/27/critics-blast-authorities-for-treating-oklahoma-beheading-as-case-workplace/

Critics blast authorities for treating beheading as case of workplace violence

I'm not even going to click on that. It's not a news report if it's from Fox, the network that regularly has commentators advocating for killing all Muslims and spewing other bigoted ideas against Muslims.

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh please, let's don't play "find offensive and terrible things from each other's sacred texts".  It's really a vile game.

I agree. Few (pretty much zero) religions, countries or sets of political ideologies are blameless across the course of history.

 

There are Muslims faithfully serving in the US military. The whole religion is not anti-US or dead set on killing anyone.

 

One of my best friends from high school converted to Islam before marrying her husband (who is from India). She runs a day care and is an accountant who does people's taxes on the side. Her dh works in tech. They aren't terrorists. THEY LIVE IN MOORE. Can we not blame people and potentially incite violence against people who have nothing whatsoever to do with this horrific act?

[Amy in NH]

I just read an article which stated that he had attended more than one service at his local mosque in which the ISIS beheadings were condemned. 

[Jasperstone]

I also didn't want to say this, out of respect for the woman who died, but fixating on the beheading ? We're fixating on it because a.the media told us to and b.we're not used to it. In result, it's no different to a workplace shooting or a workplace stabbing that culminates in a fatality.

 

I mean, I have an instinctive shudder thinking of beheadings. But really, the shudder should be about any murder, whether we are used to the method of taking another person's life or not.

While I agree that a death is a death, beheading is totally barbaric and so evil!!! I can't think of a more horrific thing to go through.

 

I would rather have a bullet than 'that' any day of the week-so to speak. If it came to something like that. And I hope it never does. :-\

 

Just saying that, as I do think there is a difference in the way a murder is committed.

 

 

ETA-

 

Oh, how I wish that we weren't discussing such things! What future has our children got if this terror isn't stopped!

[CaffeineDiary]

Yep, I definitely think the best possible use for a web forum on classical education is for us to discuss news events in a way that serves to reinforce and confirm my own crypto-racist beliefs.

[elegantlion]

I would encourage anyone who really wants to know and understand more to google for Mosques in their area. I just did because I knew there was one opened a few years ago in my area (the first in the area). They have links to information about Islam what it is and isn't, offers guided tours, and how to visit a mosque. 

[Katy]

How does one go about finding credible information regarding Islam and the use of beheading as punishment?

 

You can also go to Amnesty International's site and look at any country that has enacted Sharia law.  Saudi Arabia has had record numbers in the past couple months.

 

I can't state my position any better than Bill Maher has, in any of his talks about the topic.  The one was pretty good, specifically, but warning: he swears more than a sailor...

 

eta: Ayaan Hirsi Ali has written some pretty interesting books about the topic as well, and there are numerous interviews available online.

[umsami]

You can also go to Amnesty International's site and look at any country that has enacted Sharia law.  Saudi Arabia has had record numbers in the past couple months.

 

I can't state my position any better than Bill Maher has, in any of his talks about the topic.  The one from this week was pretty good, specifically.  Don't know if it's been posted online yet.

 

eta: Ayaan Hirsi Ali has written some pretty interesting books about the topic as well, and there are numerous interviews available online.

 

Yes, Saudi Arabia, which represents less than 2% of all Muslims is a great representative of all Muslim countries.  NOT.

 

They are the only ones that I'm aware of that use beheading as a form of execution.  Iran does hangings.  But you know what… when you look at countries who still kill people as a criminal punishment, you can't forget the US.   While I find the thought of beheading extremely troublesome, is it a worse way to die than some of our botched executions?  Probably not…especially as it's extremely quick if done the way the Saudis do it, with a trained executioner.  (In other words, pot meet kettle.  We're in great company….Iran, China, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq…woo hoo!  I personally have mixed feelings about the death penalty.  For certain crimes, like when people rape and murder children…it's hard for me not to want them to die.  I wish I was more forgiving and nice, but I'm not.  For serial rapists, well….my thought goes to in Saudi Arabia, in theory, one cuts off the left hand the first time one steals…the right hand on the second offense…so it would follow that a rapist should have this body part cut off.  )

 

As for Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I feel very bad for her story…at least the parts that are true.  (Many things she's said have been discredited as lies…she lied on her asylum application to the Netherlands and faced losing her Dutch citizenship)   I wish the Muslim community would reach out to her because I see her as a victim of child abuse.  Her experience with FGM is not unique to the Muslim world in Africa.  It's actually practiced and has been practiced by people of different faiths in Africa.  It predates Islam.  In Egypt, girls are circumcised whether they are Christian or Muslim.  It's not about Islam.  It's also not found widely practiced in other Muslim countries outside of Africa. 

 

She's made a career of demonizing Islam and is quite hateful.  That's why Brandeis withdrew it's offer of an honorary degree to her.  She's refers to Islam as the new fascism…and views herself and others at war with an entire religion.  While I agree with her about treatment of gay Muslims and women, the way she is completely negative…completely filled with hate…is a turn off.  Of course, she makes a lot of money by being in the Islamophobic industry.  Moderate statements don't get press.  The extremists know that too.  If ISIS just shot Western journalists…they wouldn't get the press they did vs. a beheading.  

 

I think if she really wanted to make changes in Muslim countries…and to end FGM…she would be far more effective if she refrained from demonizing the Muslim religion, Muhammad, etc.  Muslims, in general, don't want anything to do with her because of it.  (Understandably…I hate you…I think you and your religion are pure evil…umm….let me help you end FGM?)  That's sad for both sides, because yes…FGM is a real issue in African countries.  Yes, it's an issue that could use somebody with her public celebrity to bring more attention to it.  The US does very little w/regards to FGM.  Summer is cutting season here.  Girls are sent "back home" or the procedures happen in secret here so they have time to heal.  Once again, I wish if she truly cared about FGM, she'd tone down her blanket condemnation of everything regarding Islam so that she's gain more partners within the Muslim community.  

[Katy]

I appreciate the response, Umsami, even if I disagree with some of it.

 

I seriously looked at converting to Islam when I was young (a good ten years before 9/11) and searching for spiritual truth, and at the time I was horrified by the application of Sharia in every country I read about, and I was horrified by the desire to spread by force it across the world.  I'm horrified by how many think it is morally right to kill someone who leaves the Islamic faith. I'm horrified by how many people want to destroy Israel.

 

I think that most Muslims are no better and no worse than most Christians.  But it is disingenuous to pretend that some Muslims haven't declared a religious war, and it is a flat-out deception to pretend that a man who had religious motivation for his crime wasn't motivated by that war, and that his actions can be easily dismissed as insanity. The Moore police department has now declared it a crime of terror.

 

 

[Katy]

 

 

Sometimes, no matter what the outward pressures and expectations are, you have to be a criminal or an insane person to do certain things.  And learned people on the outside of it can recognize all of that, all together at once.

 

I haven't read A Woman in Berlin, but I think I understand and disagree with your premise.

 

I've probably had just enough psychology courses to be dangerous, but I believe with the right triggers a high percentage of people could be convinced to do criminal things but still not be insane. Hence the explanation of the Nazis. And hence the banned classroom experiments to demonstrate that even in democracy fascism can be appealing. (Third wave, Jane Elliot's blue eyed/brown eyed thing, several others).  Recently a friend was telling me about a book on sociopathy that stated that somewhere in the realm of 30% of people are sociopaths.  There's a high percentage in prison in the USA, but there's and equally high percentage who are the CEO's of fortune 500 companies.  So with that, and my understanding of the history of WWII, if I were to hazard a guess I'd say something like 30% of people are absolutely, easily swayed to criminal behavior.  Maybe 30% would rather be killed than coerced into criminal behavior, and another 40% would just do whatever they had to do to survive.

 

On the other hand, my understanding is that basic training was created after it was found that a high percentage of soldiers were incapable of killing another human being, even if being fired upon. Soldiers needed conditioning in order to overcome the instinct to not kill another human being. I'm not sure conditioning = insanity, but maybe, in that example, we are both correct.

 

I wish it was easy to identify what the triggers are.  I wish it were easy to identify what triggers it is that convince some people to become terrorists. Youth and religious zeal can only go so far.

 

Edited because I realized my percentages did not equal 100.

[Mrs Mungo]

It is disingenuous to insinuate that Sharia law in some countries is different than Christians who want their religious beliefs made into law. It is disingenuous to insinuate that anything but a tiny percentage of Muslims who live in the US want Sharia law in the US (just like a percentage of Christians want a theocracy). It is disingenuous to insinuate that anything more than a tiny percentage of Muslims who live in the US want to perpetrate violence against US citizens or the government (just like there is a percentage of Christians who are KKK members or members of anti-government groups).

 

This was one on one workplace violence related to him being fired. There was a mentally unstable man in the nineties who decapitated someone and deposited the severed head in one of the campus corner dumpsters at OU. It was horrible and violent, but not an act of terrorism.

[umsami]

You know what it doesn't bother me that she (Ayaan) hates Islam. I mean, it *bothers* me....It's sad that she doesn't get any of the goodness of the religion in her life and also, hey man! quit ragging on my religion kthanksbye. But, she was personally victimized by people who said "this is Islam." *I* know it's not Islam, and *you* know it's not Islam, and the people on this thread (I believe it in my heart!) know that isn't Islam...but critisizing her feels too much like blaming the victim. She was wronged and she can't see the forest any more. Her appreciation for trees was kind of forcibly removed, ya dig?

 

It's weird to me, though, that evidently other people can't see and understand all of that. I guess I take the education I pursued for granted, because I always assume (often wrongly) that people on the outside (that is, in this case, anyone who doesn't personally have to deal with the horrors of FGM) would understand all of that intuitively. That she is blinded. It's NOT HER FAULT she is blinded. But she is blinded.

 

Yes, I don't blame her…and I actually tried to get together some Muslim leaders to do a campaign and go on video and apologize to her.   "What was done to you in the name of Islam is wrong. It would have been wrong for any reason.  I'm sorry."  I mean, from what I remember her Grandma did it.  (Common actually….one thinks of it being imposed by men, but often it's done by the women relatives.)    Some people liked the idea…others view her so negatively that they thought I was crazy.  Need to revisit it again, I guess.

 

She's a survivor.  She was brutalized in the name of religion.  Whether or not the religion sanctions such a thing, I don't think it's asking too much for some faith leaders to apologize for it and acknowledge that it was wrong and should never have happened…and should never happen again.    She might still hate Muslims and Islam. That's her choice.  But as a Muslim, I also feel that it's the right thing for us to do…even if she continues to hate Islam.

[umsami]

Yes, I think I remember seeing something with him.

 

I love Dr. Ramadan's Suisse accent.  Sigh.  

[Mrs Mungo]

On the other hand, my understanding is that basic training was created after it was found that a high percentage of soldiers were incapable of killing another human being, even if being fired upon. Soldiers needed conditioning in order to overcome the instinct to not kill another human being. I'm not sure conditioning = insanity, but maybe, in that example, we are both correct.

 

Wow, really? No.

 

Basic training (just as subsequent schools and regular trainings are) is designed to do a few things:

 

1. Create artificial stress in order to mimic the feelings people feel in life or death situations.

2. Teach people how to function in high stress environments, despite all of the emotions and chemicals that rage through the body.

3. Highly train them, and teach them to be part of a team.

 

Those scenes in war movies where the soldiers turn to their officer and say, "they're shooting at us, sir!" And the officer says, "well, shoot back." Those scenes really happen.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I call BS as to not trying to start something. You're posting from a site whose sole purpose is to discredit Islam. Don't tell me you didn't know that.

 

The Qur'an, just like the Bible, should be read in context. One line or one paragraph can be taken out of context quite easily…especially if you realize that during Muhammad's lifetime, there were lots of battles and tribal issues going on. Unlike the Bible, the historical record is very clear as to what was going on when the verses were revealed. I'm not going to do your research for you, as honestly, I can tell that you don't give hoot. It's not hidden. It's easy to see when certain verses were revealed and why.

 

BTW, there are even sites that answer the site you posted to.

 

I recommend Reza Aslan's book, "No god but God" to put everything into context.

 

As to how to treat nonbelievers, the document I linked prior, written by scholars talks about how to treat non-believers. It's all based on the Qur'an. You can read the executive summary….and then you can go through the actual document to see the Islamic reasoning behind it. It's in English, too….but don't worry, if you think it's some lie, you can read it in Arabic as well. http://lettertobaghdadi.com An excerpt.

 

"

 

• 5- It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

• 6- It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

• 7- It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to

  kill journalists and aid workers.

• 8- Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose

  and without the right rules of conduct.

• 9- It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares

  disbelief.

• 10- It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the

  Scripture’.

• 11- It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.

• 12- The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.

• 13- It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

• 14- It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.

• 15- It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.

• 16- It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud) without following the correct

  procedures that ensure justice and mercy. "

As to your post, there are sites that go through similar Biblical verses which are equally disturbing. However, as it would be intentionally misleading and hateful to post them, I'm not going to do so.

 

Next Saturday is the start of the Muslim holiday of Eid-ul-Adha. We commemorate the story in the Bible and the Qur'an regarding Abrahim/Ibrahim and his son. I'm sure you (and others) would be welcome at your local mosque or Islamic center. Often times, they hold it in a park or someplace bigger as we have lots of cultural Muslims too who show up just for holidays (like Easter/Christmas-only Christians). There is usually food after…bounce houses for the kids, etc. Why not stop by and see some real live Muslims so that you're not so scared about the faith. The sermons are always either in English or in a language, followed by English (English is the default in the Muslim American community, because Muslims come from so many countries.) Be forewarned though that many communities have a fundraising talk in an effort to get the holiday-only Muslims to donate. Muslims really aren't the boogie men you see portrayed. Come out and meet some real life ones. Nobody is going to try and harm you.

I appreciate you posting the reformed tenants. My follow up question would be, are these changes accepted Universally or are there "traditional" or "Orthodox" Muslims that have not adopted these changes?

 

My most intimate experience with Islam is from living with my Muslim host family in the heart of the Muslim District (Huimin Jie) in Xi'an, China. The family's sir name was Ma which is the Chinese form of Muhammad. They are very pious people and extremely loving. They lived in a traditional Muslim style home with an interior court yard. The Mosque was literally around the corner and I spent countless hours there practicing Bagua (a Chinese marital art) with my shifu who was also Muslim. The one rule that we had to obey was that we could not discuss religion because the Chinese authorities closely monitor foreigners and Muslims. I was very careful, but still the Foreign service bureau threatened to revoke my visa if I didn't move out of the Muslim district. There I had such opportunity for cross cultural and cross religion discourse but it was forbidden.

 

My hope is that we can peacefully communicate about these topics without making it personal, without making assumptions about one another's points of view. There is so much we can learn here.

[Katy]

This was one on one workplace violence related to him being fired. There was a mentally unstable man in the nineties who decapitated someone and deposited the severed head in one of the campus corner dumpsters at OU. It was horrible and violent, but not an act of terrorism.

 

When would it have crossed the line into terrorism, do you think?  I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious why our definitions differ.

 

If the COO hadn't been in the Sheriff's reserves and no one had been armed, and it had turmed into a standoff and he had decapitated 15 people, would that have crossed into terrorism?  150?  Does terrorism need to involve large numbers of people?  Or bombs?

 

In my book, he had religious motivation and he was killing people he did not know due to that religious motivation, and he was doing it for the purpose of terrifying people, it was an act of terrorism.  If the report is correct, and he was fired due to religiously-motivated conversations about sharia law, and his response to being fired was murder, I'd still call that terrorism.  Especially due to the contents of his facebook page.

 

I have heard that initial reports that he was yelling things in Arabic as he was committing the crime were false, so I hope all the reports that would lead me to believe it's terrorism are wrong, but I doubt it.

[Mrs Mungo]

When would it have crossed the line into terrorism, do you think? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious why our definitions differ.

 

If the COO hadn't been in the Sheriff's reserves and no one had been armed, and it had turmed into a standoff and he had decapitated 15 people, would that have crossed into terrorism? 150? Does terrorism need to involve large numbers of people? Or bombs?

 

In my book, he had religious motivation and he was killing people he did not know due to that religious motivation, and he was doing it for the purpose of terrifying people, it was an act of terrorism. If the report is correct, and he was fired due to religiously-motivated conversations about sharia law, and his response to being fired was murder, I'd still call that terrorism. Especially due to the contents of his facebook page.

 

I have heard that initial reports that he was yelling things in Arabic as he was committing the crime were false, so I hope all the reports that would lead me to believe it's terrorism are wrong, but I doubt it.

He killed them because he was mad he got fired. That isn't terrorism. Terrorism *by dictionary definition* includes specific political aims.

[Katy]

Wow, really? No.

 

Basic training (just as subsequent schools and regular trainings are) is designed to do a few things:

 

1. Create artificial stress in order to mimic the feelings people feel in life or death situations.

2. Teach people how to function in high stress environments, despite all of the emotions and chemicals that rage through the body.

3. Highly train them, and teach them to be part of a team.

 

Those scenes in war movies where the soldiers turn to their officer and say, "they're shooting at us, sir!" And the officer says, "well, shoot back." Those scenes really happen.

 

I'm absolutely certain I heard that from a military source.  It might have been from my ex, or it might have been a book he recommended, maybe Dave Grossman's On Killing: the Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society.  I guess it's possible it was something from the history channel and then I discussed it with him in reference to that book. I'll do some research and try and figure out where that was from.

[umsami]

I appreciate you posting the reformed tenants. My follow up question would be, are these changes accepted Universally or are there "traditional" or "Orthodox" Muslims that have not adopted these changes?

 

My most intimate experience with Islam is from living with my Muslim host family in the heart of the Muslim District (Huimin Jie) in Xi'an, China. The family's sir name was Ma which is the Chinese form of Muhammad. They are very pious people and extremely loving. They lived in a traditional Muslim style home with an interior court yard. The Mosque was literally around the corner and I spent countless hours there practicing Bagua (a Chinese marital art) with my shifu who was also Muslim. The one rule that we had to obey was that we could not discuss religion because the Chinese authorities closely monitor foreigners and Muslims. I was very careful, but still the Foreign service bureau threatened to revoke my visa if I didn't move out of the Muslim district. There I had such opportunity for cross cultural and cross religion discourse but it was forbidden.

 

My hope is that we can peacefully communicate about these topics without making it personal, without making assumptions about one another's points of view. There is so much we can learn here.

 

The document I posted is from mainstream Muslim scholars in many different countries.  I would say that it is pretty universally accepted reasoning among mainstream Muslims.  I wouldn't view these statements as progressive or anything.  They would be viewed as very traditional, as they are based on the Qur'an and accepted hadith (traditions).  It would be very easy to argue with somebody who held an opposite belief.

 

I think I would distinguish between "orthodox" or conservative Muslims and extremists.  I know many Muslims who I would view as conservative/orthodox.  These are people who pray five times per day, fast, won't touch alcohol, pork, etc.  They would defend those statements made in the document quite strongly.  Not harming "people of the book" and innocent people is pretty basic Islamic knowledge.  

 

The problems tend to come from (in my opinion) people who don't follow a traditional, educated scholar from somebody who follows one of the standard madhabs (schools of thought).  There are lots of Internet shaykhs, for lack of a better term, whose reasoning is faulty as is their education.  For example, Bin Laden had zero training in Islamic jurisprudence nor did his second in command the Egyptian doctor guy whose name I've forgotten (who was a medical doctor, not a Ph.D.)   There are also people who know which buttons to push among disaffected youth, etc.  Some schools in Pakistan and Afghanistan indoctrinate children very young.  While some people view the fact that Sunni Muslims have no real leader (although the head of Al-Azhar and other organizations are viewed as good authorities)…. it can work against us too.  It would be a lot easier if there was a Pope-like figure who could say…..FGM is wrong.  Beheading people is wrong.   Doing XYZ is wrong.  Documents like this…with lots of different respected scholars…try to take that place… but I doubt they're sharing this among the schools run by the Taliban in Afghanistan. KWIM?

[Katy]

He killed them because he was mad he got fired. That isn't terrorism. Terrorism *by dictionary definition* includes specific political aims.

 

He had specific political aims of sharia law.  Check his facebook page.  I don't see this as much different than a suicide bomber, who is fully aware that their crime might bring some attention to their political views, but will not change anything.

[Katy]

Mrs Mungo - in reference to the basic training thing, it definitely came from Dave Grossman's book. 

[umsami]

Oh..and before I go to bed…I'll add that another giant problem in the Muslim world is that many do not know what is cultural vs. religion.  It becomes more apparent in the US, because we have Muslims of all different backgrounds.  Examples would include accepted dress and colors of dress (for example, nowhere does it state that men should wear white and women black like happens in Saudi), marriage traditions, FGM, and a whole host of others.  People usually believe that the way they were raised is the "right" Islam.  Some view others as fine but different…but there are a few of the my way is right, your way is wrong camp.

[Mrs Mungo]

He had specific political aims of sharia law.  Check his facebook page.  I don't see this as much different than a suicide bomber, who is fully aware that their crime might bring some attention to their political views, but will not change anything.

 

 

He may have had political views, that wasn't the motivation for the killings. That is what divides him from the worst mass murderer of Oklahomans-Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh.

 

 

Mrs Mungo - in reference to the basic training thing, it definitely came from Dave Grossman's book.

 

He doesn't compare it with or assert or imply that it is comparable to a mental break resulting in insanity.

[Word Nerd]

He killed them because he was mad he got fired. That isn't terrorism. Terrorism *by dictionary definition* includes specific political aims.

The FBI wouldn't be involved if it there was no possibility it was an act of terrorism or a hate crime. None of us can make any claims about what it was or wasn't with certainty. It's still being investigated; the suspect wasn't even out of sedation until today.

[Katy]

 

 

He doesn't compare it with or assert or imply that it is comparable to a mental break resulting in insanity.

 

Neither did I, I was only answering the up thread assertion that killing equals insanity.

[Mrs Mungo]

The FBI wouldn't be involved if it there was no possibility it was an act of terrorism or a hate crime. None of us can make any claims about what it was or wasn't with certainty. It's still being investigated; the suspect wasn't even out of sedation until today.

Based on the information available, it doesn't seem to be terrorism or a hate crime. I disagree with Katy's reasoning on why she thinks it is terrorism.

[Guest]

I call BS as to not trying to start something.  You're posting from a site whose sole purpose is to discredit Islam.  Don't tell me you didn't know that.  

 

The Qur'an, just like the Bible, should be read in context.  One line or one paragraph can be taken out of context quite easily…especially if you realize that during Muhammad's lifetime, there were lots of battles and tribal issues going on.  Unlike the Bible, the historical record is very clear as to what was going on when the verses were revealed.  I'm not going to do your research for you, as honestly, I can tell that you don't give hoot.  It's not hidden.  It's easy to see when certain verses were revealed and why.  

 

BTW, there are even sites that answer the site you posted to.  

 

I recommend Reza Aslan's book, "No god but God" to put everything into context.

 

As to how to treat nonbelievers, the document I linked prior, written by scholars talks about how to treat non-believers.  It's all based on the Qur'an.  You can read the executive summary….and then you can go through the actual document to see the Islamic reasoning behind it.  It's in English, too….but don't worry, if you think it's some lie, you can read it in Arabic as well.   http://lettertobaghdadi.com  An excerpt.

 

"

1. 5-  It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

2. 6-  It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

3. 7-  It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to

   kill journalists and aid workers.

4. 8-  Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose

   and without the right rules of conduct.

5. 9-  It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares

   disbelief.

6. 10-  It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the

   Scripture’.

7. 11-  It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.

8. 12-  The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.

9. 13-  It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

10. 14-  It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.

11. 15-  It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.

12. 16-  It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud) without following the correct

    procedures that ensure justice and mercy. "

 

As to your post, there are sites that go through similar Biblical verses which are equally disturbing.  However, as it would be intentionally misleading and hateful to post them, I'm not going to do so.

 

Next Saturday is the start of the Muslim holiday of Eid-ul-Adha.  We commemorate the story in the Bible and the Qur'an regarding Abrahim/Ibrahim and his son.  I'm sure you (and others) would be welcome at your local mosque or Islamic center.  Often times, they hold it in a park or someplace bigger as we have lots of cultural Muslims too who show up just for holidays (like Easter/Christmas-only Christians).   There is usually food after…bounce houses for the kids, etc.  Why not stop by and see some real live Muslims so that you're not so scared about the faith.  The sermons are always either in English or in a language, followed by English (English is the default in the Muslim American community, because Muslims come from so many countries.)  Be forewarned though that many communities have a fundraising talk in an effort to get the holiday-only Muslims to donate.  Muslims really aren't the boogie men you see portrayed.  Come out and meet some real life ones.  Nobody is going to try and harm you.  

 

You can call bs all you want... that doesn't make it so.  What I said is what I hear others say.  I did not look at the website other than the verses.

 

FYI, I have several Muslim friends.   ;)

 

ETA: I don't think the people doing these killings consider people of other religions "innocent", correct?  None of the excerpts really touched what I quoted.

[homeschoolkitty]

What is a "realistic" picture in this case?

 

Do you think Islamic followers are infiltrating the Heartland in order to behead random people? Because I am seeing a LOT of comments with those sorts of dire warnings and claims. Or is that the pessimist view?

 

Do you think this guy was mentally unstable and no more representative of his religion than Timothy McVeigh or other Christian murderers? Is that the optimist view? Because it doesn't seem very optimistic. I am very cynical when it comes to the state of mental health care in the US.

 

Your post just isn't computing for me.

 

 

To the OP… your title is inflammatory and insulting.  It's not like us American Muslims don't get enough crap…but thanks.  Muslims didn't invent beheading.  Just so you know the FBI has been to the mosques in two major cities in Florida to warn us (especially Muslim women who are visibly Muslim with hijab) that they have knowledge of potential hate crimes and the threat is so serious that Imams are recommending that we remove our hijabs to be safe. So thanks for fueling the hate. If you read about a Muslim woman who is murdered in Florida and has four small kids, that may be me.  And you and your hate bating and fear mongering , can take a tiny bit of credit for it.  Please, think before you post.  Remember that there are Muslim Moms here who experience a lot of crap when ISIS or others do it.  We have no control over it, either.  We don't sanction it.  We apologize for it even though we have nothing to do with it.  Heck, we're now apologizing for algebra, universities, inoculations, etc. 

 

 

Sigh.  You are aware that beheadings and other tactics were common battlefield tactics at the time, as well as a mean of execution well up until the 20th century in France (last use 1977)…and had nothing to do with Islam, right?   You're well aware that the Crusaders, those just God-fearing Christians, beheaded thousands of Muslims in Jerusalem during the first Crusade, including men, women, and children?  This was the 11th century…hundreds of years after that savage (cough) Muhammad.

 

As for ISIS and their tactics being part of Islam, I strongly recommend that you read what hundreds of well-respected Muslim scholars (y'know the people who actually study Islam) wrote to them.  http://lettertobaghdadi.com

 

It may seem awkward reading, but it is how Islamic reasoning is basically done.  You don't need to read the whole thing, but the executive summary sums it up nicely.

 

I've always thought it would be so helpful if the religion of all criminals was posted in headlines.  Then we'd have stuff like Christian Pedophile,  Christian Terrorist, Christian Murderer, Christian Rapist, Christian Wife Absuer, Christian Animal Abuser, thousands and thousands of times to read over and over again.  It would be only fair.  Why would it happen? Because a majority of Americans identify as Christian.  That's why stuff like this doesn't fly in Muslim countries…because to us Muslis, they're obviously not practicing Muslims and sick, twisted individuals.  Of course, Christians would have petty arguments that they weren't really following Christianity….but all of us would know the truth (wink wink, nudge nudge.)

 

As for Jesus being nonviolent, did you see this? http://www.newsweek.com/jesus-was-crucified-because-disciples-were-armed-bible-analysis-suggests-271436

 

"The biblical books of Mark and Luke both state that at least one (and probably two or more) of Jesus’s followers was carrying a sword when Jesus was arrested shortly after the Last Supper, at the time of the Jewish festival of Passover. One disciple, Simon Peter, even used his sword to cut off the ear of one of those arresting Jesus, according to the Gospel of John."

 

Cutting off an ear?? I'm betting he was a Muslim! 

 

The FBI, and the military have also come to talk to military families. Have asked them to remove "I heart army" and other military related items from their cars, has been suggested not to wear military shirts or stuff around towns, and take away anyhing that would make you a target for being in the military.

 

About Peter, he was openly rebuked by the leader of Christianity, and the ear pas properly re-placed and healed.

Christians are not perfect, Christianity does not follow Peter, Christians follow Jesus or they should.

 

Your irritation at the religion calling is granted. The press is bent to get ratings and hits by making the connection. Alarmist sells.

 

It is a good time to make cupcakes and take them to your neighboor, wheather you are a christian or a muslim mum. and talk with eachother and let each other know that you care for them.

 

k