What to do if a family is not teaching their children

[maize]

Until recently (last year?), my state's law was that a parent had to be the primary teacher of the basic subjects (choosing materials and providing the instruction) and other people could only do supplementary things. (However, our state does allow two and only two households to combine as a single homeschool.)

It may be that other states have similar rules. If the law requires a parent to be the primary teacher, the OP would not be able to do that.

 

Hmm.

 

I have mostly lived in low regulation states and have not seen such rules. In some states homeschools are considered private schools, and as private schools they are able to enroll students other than their own. The rules in my current state indicate that the parent takes full responsibility for the child's education but that does not mean the parent can not delegate actual teaching.

 

If the parent has to provide most of the actual teaching, are online classes not permitted?

[NCMom]

Hmm.

 

I have mostly lived in low regulation states and have not seen such rules. In some states homeschools are considered private schools, and as private schools they are able to enroll students other than their own. The rules in my current state indicate that the parent takes full responsibility for the child's education but that does not mean the parent can not delegate actual teaching.

 

If the parent has to provide most of the actual teaching, are online classes not permitted?

Legally they really weren't. Neither were academic co-ops technically. Yet everyone did them and called it enrichment... Lol

 

Sorry for the derail.

Georgia

[73349]

Hmm.

 

I have mostly lived in low regulation states and have not seen such rules. In some states homeschools are considered private schools, and as private schools they are able to enroll students other than their own. The rules in my current state indicate that the parent takes full responsibility for the child's education but that does not mean the parent can not delegate actual teaching.

 

If the parent has to provide most of the actual teaching, are online classes not permitted?

 

That's exactly why we got our law changed. Strictly speaking, under the old law, for example, we wouldn't be able to count an online college course for a student's math, lit, history or science for the year. Either it would have to be an elective and we'd have to do something else as the required course, or the parent would have to take the class and reteach it. It was also unlawful for co-ops to teach the core subjects.

[maize]

Legally they really weren't. Neither were academic co-ops technically. Yet everyone did them and called it enrichment... Lol

Sorry for the derail.

Georgia

  

That's exactly why we got our law changed. Strictly speaking, under the old law, for example, we wouldn't be able to count an online college course for a student's math, lit, history or science for the year. Either it would have to be an elective and we'd have to do something else as the required course, or the parent would have to take the class and reteach it. It was also unlawful for co-ops to teach the core subjects.

I'm glad to know that common sense prevailed and the law was changed!

[AimeeM]

Probably depends on the state. But certainly any homeschooling parent has the right to hire a tutor?

Many states require that the parent provide at least 51% of the instruction in the core, required subjects (here, that would be english language arts, mathematics, history, science). They can hire a tutor, but unless that tutor is a certified teacher, they cannot teach more than that.

[AimeeM]

Sign me up! I would happily homeschool half a dozen extra kids if someone would cook and clean for me!

 

This could actually work if the mom is willing, if not with the OP maybe with another experienced homeschooling family.

But we aren't talking about typical "more children" - we're talking about 4 additional children, all of whom are VERY behind. Could you really give each of those children the complete one-on-one attention they would need to come up to speed, on the very basics, from being so very behind, on top of your own children? Even the most experienced, awesome homeschool moms I know wouldn't be able to handle it. 

[woolybear]

It does seem complex..... you did say the kids want to learn? So, maybe you can give them some information on free online programs. At least it could be something. I know really not a solution, but just a thought. I meant to say the info could be passed directly to the kids, if the mom is not interested.

 

I am always hesitant to stick my nose/opinions into other homeschooling families business because I know what we do and how we do it may not look acceptable to others. So, I want to bring less of a microscope onto the lives of homeschoolers in general.

 

Not sure if this is making sense. It's late, I'm tired, etc. I'm trying to say "judge not, lest ye be judged." ..........I think.

[shinyhappypeople]

Do the children WANT to learn to read?  If one or more is motivated, would it be possible to gift the children an online reading program similar to Reading Eggs?  At least that way they could teach themselves to read.  Once you know how to read, that opens up all sorts of self-teaching opportunities.  Is there a way you could teach one child to read, and then teach another child.... ?  It's a lot to ask, but it would be lifechanging for those children.  Do they have access to the internet?  Khan Academy?  Maybe gift a subscription to Dreambox for math?  

 

I just don't understand what this mom is doing.  I don't get it.  I really don't.  

 

I understanding failing.  I do not understand not trying at all.

[Justmeandyou]

Do the children WANT to learn to read?  If one or more is motivated, would it be possible to gift the children an online reading program similar to Reading Eggs?  At least that way they could teach themselves to read.  Once you know how to read, that opens up all sorts of self-teaching opportunities.  Is there a way you could teach one child to read, and then teach another child.... ?  It's a lot to ask, but it would be lifechanging for those children.  Do they have access to the internet?  Khan Academy?  Maybe gift a subscription to Dreambox for math?  

 

I just don't understand what this mom is doing.  I don't get it.  I really don't.  

 

I understanding failing.  I do not understand not trying at all.

 

I have sent lots of links to free educational online things. Easy Peasy, Starfall, Khan etc.

[mama27]

I've read through this and a couple things stick out for me.

1. why isn't that dad being in on any meetings of concern? These kids do have two parents, not just one, so if you're meetng and talking with one, why not both?

2. Could the kids have LD's?

3. This exact question gets asked about twice a year and it always turns into a debate.

[Jane Elliot]

I've read through this and a couple things stick out for me.

1. why isn't that dad being in on any meetings of concern? These kids do have two parents, not just one, so if you're meetng and talking with one, why not both?

2. Could the kids have LD's?

3. This exact question gets asked about twice a year and it always turns into a debate.

 

1. No kidding. I think the most effective approach would be to appeal to the dad, especially since he seems to be the only one who is consistently present.

2. It's been my observation that very mild LD's can look like full-blown LD's where there has not been consistent and appropriate instruction.

3. Yes, it does. It always boils down to different philosophical and political views on parental and societal rights and responsibilities. Most people aren't swayed from their positions by these types of discussions because our views usually stem from an overall worldview. Nevertheless, I think it's valuable to try to strike a semi consensus on practical ways to help for the sake of the children.

[Elisabet1]

Not that I have read everything, but how do you know they are behind? Did you test them yourself? Did you ask one to read you a book and they didn't so you took that as an assessment of their reading level?

 

Seriously, unless there is actual real abuse, this is not your business. You really do not know what is going on in the home. Unless, of course, you are neglecting your own home and your own children's education by being at that home 24-7. She might not have done much while you were watching her, but I never do anything while others watch me. And if I thought someone was trying to quiz and assess my children, I would get very angry and I would likely instruct my children to be incapable of anything. 

 

Everyone has opinions on how to raise kids.  Some people get up in arms that the next person is not raising their children the same exact way as they are. Remember when you were pregnant and the bossy people? And then when you chose breast vs bottle and the people who fought over that? This is no different. You are home schooling one way. You have seen a family where you perceive they are doing it a different way, and you don't like it. You have "accessed" and made a complete judgement about their home school over..what? an hour at their house? 10 hours at their house? Unless you are there 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week for a year, I would not believe you know more about how to raise their children than them. They are not abusing their children. The house is clean (which is more than I can say for mine). So what if you perceive the kids to be "behind" where you perceive they need to be. It is simply your perception and unless she handed the kids over to you to do legit and extensive testing, you do not know. And even testing can be off. 

 

Let it go. And let this thread die already! It is an insult to even see it here. As parents, we get judged enough. I am not here to answer to anyone. And I would be ticked if I found out others were discussing what I was doing behind my back. I remember years ago hearing of some home school families having CPS called on them because the kids were reading on the weekend instead of playing outside. Other families were reported because kids were playing outside instead of inside studying. This person feels that child is too hyper and MUST be under doctors case, and that family feels the other family feeds too much junk food. Just let it go! Stop judging others! Stop trying to run to authorities and reporting others. Unless a child is being abused, let it go. 

[Elisabet1]

Ironically, right after I made my post, my mother called me about something. In the conversation, I said that I were going over some math problems. She got upset with me and tried to inform me that this is the Sabbath and I am supposed to keep it Holy and the children are absolutely not to do any work today (yeah, she does not even go to church, she has never been religious, she just likes to be bossy). I can guarantee if my child had been in public school and had homework today, she would not demand that we not do it. 

 

So, the point is, everyone has an opinion. And you do not know if yours is correct. All you can do is do the best by your own children and leave other people alone. Unless abuse is involved, it really is NOYB.

[Haiku]

It is an insult to even see it here.

 

I completely disagree. As much as I am an "I'll do my thing, you of yours" sort of person, if a discussion board full of people who are interested in providing children with excellent educations isn't the place to discuss how to handle a situation in which someone believes there is educational neglect, then where in the world is? Just because you think it is a MYOB situation doesn't mean everyone does.

[Elisabet1]

I completely disagree. As much as I am an "I'll do my thing, you of yours" sort of person, if a discussion board full of people who are interested in providing children with excellent educations isn't the place to discuss how to handle a situation in which someone believes there is educational neglect, then where in the world is? Just because you think it is a MYOB situation doesn't mean everyone does.

How to judge someone else's homeschooling and then try to force them to conform to your ideas of home schooling never belongs on a support group for homeschooling. That belongs on a support group for anti-homeschooling or for busy bodies.

[Haiku]

I guess if you are looking to assign negative intentions to the OP, then that would be how you interpret this thread.

[Elisabet1]

I guess if you are looking to assign negative intentions to the OP, then that would be how you interpret this thread.

Oh, I am sure the OP really thinks she is "helping" those kids. Just like every person who calls CPS on a home school family with some sort of complaint. Through the years, and on home school boards, I have heard some of the most insane complaints. People who want to control other people's lives usually do it because they genuinely think their way is right, and the other person is so wrong that they just need to step in and make sure the other person does it right, for their own good. Heck, even to a far more extreme, even Hitler felt he was doing wonderful things for people and society by forcing them to conform to his ways and view points. Obviously, that is far more extreme, but it is just another case where someone felt they were doing what was best for someone else, but they were not.

[Elisabet1]

I guess if you are looking to assign negative intentions to the OP, then that would be how you interpret this thread.

And HSLDA and THSC and whoever else (I don't know if there are other legal home school groups) deal every day with situations of someone else thinking they know what is best for children that are not their own and take things to court and such. Look at the German family. Germany really really thinks it seriously harms society and children to be home schooled. They really think they are looking out for the best of those kids. There are many Americans who agree with Germany. Germany is not doing what they are doing because they simply want to harm that family. They are doing it because they truly believe it is a good thing.

[Haiku]

Wow. You are really caustic in your delivery style. And it's clear that, as you stated, you haven't read all the posts. Have a good one.

[Justmeandyou]

Not that I have read everything, but how do you know they are behind? Did you test them yourself? Did you ask one to read you a book and they didn't so you took that as an assessment of their reading level?

 

Seriously, unless there is actual real abuse, this is not your business. You really do not know what is going on in the home. Unless, of course, you are neglecting your own home and your own children's education by being at that home 24-7. She might not have done much while you were watching her, but I never do anything while others watch me. And if I thought someone was trying to quiz and assess my children, I would get very angry and I would likely instruct my children to be incapable of anything. 

 

Everyone has opinions on how to raise kids.  Some people get up in arms that the next person is not raising their children the same exact way as they are. Remember when you were pregnant and the bossy people? And then when you chose breast vs bottle and the people who fought over that? This is no different. You are home schooling one way. You have seen a family where you perceive they are doing it a different way, and you don't like it. You have "accessed" and made a complete judgement about their home school over..what? an hour at their house? 10 hours at their house? Unless you are there 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week for a year, I would not believe you know more about how to raise their children than them. They are not abusing their children. The house is clean (which is more than I can say for mine). So what if you perceive the kids to be "behind" where you perceive they need to be. It is simply your perception and unless she handed the kids over to you to do legit and extensive testing, you do not know. And even testing can be off. 

 

Let it go. And let this thread die already! It is an insult to even see it here. As parents, we get judged enough. I am not here to answer to anyone. And I would be ticked if I found out others were discussing what I was doing behind my back. I remember years ago hearing of some home school families having CPS called on them because the kids were reading on the weekend instead of playing outside. Other families were reported because kids were playing outside instead of inside studying. This person feels that child is too hyper and MUST be under doctors case, and that family feels the other family feeds too much junk food. Just let it go! Stop judging others! Stop trying to run to authorities and reporting others. Unless a child is being abused, let it go. 

 

If you want answers to your questions and statements, you should actually read the thread.

[Justmeandyou]

I had a couple of the kids spend this weekend with us (at dad's request, mom is out of town).  We had to do school on Saturday to make up for missing a day last week, so they did school with us.  They are very behind (e.g. cannot i.d. the symbols for adding, subtracting or numbers over 100, do not know all sounds/letters)  but so eager to learn.  I was very encourage by their willingness and eagerness.  I do think they will catch up if given a chance. I am going to talk to dad like many of you have suggested. 

[idnib]

Not that I have read everything,

 

I think that's pretty clear.

 

It's a sensitive thread and topic, so maybe spend some time reading it before jumping in? It's not like she asked for chicken recipes.

 

Maybe reading the thread won't change your mind, but you'll have more credibility than tearing into a sensitive thread that contains a lot of information after the first post, admit you didn't read it, and state a strong opinion.

 

And if you want it to die, why bump it with your input? Or did you want your word to be the last?

[Arcadia]

 They are very behind (e.g. cannot i.d. the symbols for adding, subtracting or numbers over 100, do not know all sounds/letters)  but so eager to learn.  I was very encourage by their willingness and eagerness.  I do think they will catch up if given a chance. I am going to talk to dad like many of you have suggested. 

 

Do they have computers/tablets they can use?  Maybe dad would have time to do his work and just monitor their computer usage. There are so many online programs available nowadays that an eager child can catch up decently.   If there is no one free to monitor internet usage, then the jumpstart CDs are what comes to mind as a useful offline educational stop gap for the younger kids.  With a tablet, there are many free educational apps that work offline.

 

Do you think that their mother might be tired of educating the kids?  She has three older kids that have left the nest and than these four younger ones.  I have no idea how the older three were educated but I am thinking that she might just think she is tired of being "tied down" and just want to do her own thing now.   Unfortunately the older kids aren't around to help educate the younger kids unlike the other big families here.

[maize]

I had a couple of the kids spend this weekend with us (at dad's request, mom is out of town).  We had to do school on Saturday to make up for missing a day last week, so they did school with us.  They are very behind (e.g. cannot i.d. the symbols for adding, subtracting or numbers over 100, do not know all sounds/letters)  but so eager to learn.  I was very encourage by their willingness and eagerness.  I do think they will catch up if given a chance. I am going to talk to dad like many of you have suggested. 

 

This sounds like a good plan :)

[shinyhappypeople]

How to judge someone else's homeschooling and then try to force them to conform to your ideas of home schooling never belongs on a support group for homeschooling. That belongs on a support group for anti-homeschooling or for busy bodies.

 

Except there is no homeschooling happening.  That's the problem at hand.  I think this has been a really interesting discussion.  

[Lecka]

My husband's little brother was educationally neglected.  It is sad for him now.  I don't know how he is going to find a woman willing to marry him, b/c he is not heading into any kind of work that will pay enough for a woman to want to marry him.  This is harsh but I think it is true, I don't think women want to marry a man who is not going anywhere.  

 

My ILs do not value education and pulled him in and out of different schools.  They moved him mid-year for random, unnecessary reasons.  

 

The year my MIL was going to homeschool, she ordered a curriculum in a box and spent months saying "I have got to open those boxes and get started."  She never did.  He went back to church school the next year.  They ended up finding a non-accredited church school that would let him graduate from high school, he was not going to be able to meet the requirements for any accredited high school.  

 

I know the story with them.  First, lots of learning disabilities.  My FIL was beaten in public school and made to be very ashamed for having trouble with reading.  My MIL is flaky.  I do not tell my kids when she says she is going to visit, b/c she so often flakes out and does not come at the last minute.  We tell them she is coming when she is on the car and on the way here.  

 

They pulled my BIL out of a school when he was in 7th grade after they were told he needed math tutoring and some oversight to get his homework completed.  They just flipped out and took him out of school.  Since then I do not believe that he ever advanced in math.  They never got him a tutor, or into a math class, or anything.  They just played a shell game of him attending here and there and then "homeschooling."  Then the non-accredited church school.  

 

It is really difficult, though.  We never felt that we could do anything about it.  Since he got a little older my little BIL did live with us a while and work at Sonic.  He did not have skills to start in for-credit classes in community college -- it would be a very hard road for him, and he is not interested.  He worked in a grocery store for a while.  Now he might join the military.  

 

One time my FIL was going to have him get a GED instead of bothering to send him to the church school to get a high school diploma.  My husband talked to him on the phone for a long time, and told him about specific examples he knows of where there can be a big advantage to having a diploma instead of a GED.  We are glad he at least got a diploma.  

 

So much of it with my FIL is related to his deep shame and the way he was treated with having a learning disability.  It is really heartbreaking.  

 

My MIL is flaky, flaky, flaky but she also has good qualities.  She is kind as long as there is no advance planning required and no need to follow up.  She is also very clean and she is great with home design and home projects.  She has helped us with our house and it is really nice -- our living room and kitchen are so good since she helped us move our furniture around.  But in a lot of ways she is flaky and not dependable.  She is just not.  I try to appreciate the good with her and overlook the bad.  

 

What is sad is that this whole time, they lived in a great public school system.  My MIL cared a lot about the school district because of the re-sale value of her home.  But, after 7th grade they just took him out of it.  I think they were afraid he would not do well and wanted to keep up appearances -- that is all I can think of to explain it.  I do not know why they couldn't have gotten him a tutor.  They didn't even take him early for before-school tutoring.  (I know a lot of the details b/c I stayed with them for 2 months with my son while my husband was deployed, so they could spend time with their grandson/my son.)  

 

It never occurred to me to call CPS?  I feel like -- maybe the outcome would have been -- they might have been told to put him in public school the year he was "homeschooling" and she never opened the box (he hung around the house and played video games, she would not bother to drive him anywhere for any activities and they lived too far for him to ride his bike).  He could have at least ridden the bus to school.

 

We felt bad for him but we were young ourselves -- their is a gap in age between my husband and his sister, who were a year apart, and the little brother about 10 years younger.  They were raised better -- my MIL and FIL used to be more stable.  By the time we were settled and he came to live with us -- it felt like it was too late, he was too behind.  We thought he might live with us and go to community college or technical college but he didn't want to, he moved back to keep my MIL company and work in a grocery store.  

[Justmeandyou]

Do they have computers/tablets they can use?  Maybe dad would have time to do his work and just monitor their computer usage. There are so many online programs available nowadays that an eager child can catch up decently.   If there is no one free to monitor internet usage, then the jumpstart CDs are what comes to mind as a useful offline educational stop gap for the younger kids.  With a tablet, there are many free educational apps that work offline.

 

Do you think that their mother might be tired of educating the kids?  She has three older kids that have left the nest and than these four younger ones.  I have no idea how the older three were educated but I am thinking that she might just think she is tired of being "tied down" and just want to do her own thing now.   Unfortunately the older kids aren't around to help educate the younger kids unlike the other big families here.

 

They have at least once computer at home.  Maybe a laptop too. 

 

For the bolded-- that is really possible.  Heck, I am tired of schooling my kids sometimes.  I can totally see how someone would just wear out. 

[Elisabet1]

I had a couple of the kids spend this weekend with us (at dad's request, mom is out of town).  We had to do school on Saturday to make up for missing a day last week, so they did school with us.  They are very behind (e.g. cannot i.d. the symbols for adding, subtracting or numbers over 100, do not know all sounds/letters)  but so eager to learn.  I was very encourage by their willingness and eagerness.  I do think they will catch up if given a chance. I am going to talk to dad like many of you have suggested. 

Tread softly. If someone went to your husband and tattled on you, how would you react? I would be livid. I asked my husband how he would react if someone approached him and said I was not doing a good enough job and tried to get him to correct me based on her request. The reaction would not be good.

 

You will get one of two things. Either the husband will be angry that you are trying to tattle to him about his wife and expecting him to run back to his wife and demand she change to fit your expectations. or he will side with you, showing some real fault in his marriage, likely causing problems. No good husband would go to his wife and order her to change how she is raising her children based on something that some other woman tattles to him.

 

No good can possibly come from this.

 

Perhaps if you went to them (both of them) and said "I noticed junior enjoyed doing math with my children, this happens to be an area I love, would you like him to come over and I can help him? I bet he would love doing more with my children." But then be prepared to teach someone else's children for free for a long time. But if you go to the husband alone and tell him his wife has been failing to teach the children properly and he needs to fix her and change what she is doing, will not fly. Only exception would be is if they have big marital problems to begin with and he loves the idea of bringing another woman in to the marriage to pit against his wife.

[Elisabet1]

FYI..my child came home from public school....5th grade, having never learned borrowing and carrying on multiplication, no long division. Only reason he knows math facts is I taught him. He does not know any sort of mechanics on grammar. He was still earning A's and passing all the standardized tests in Texas. You might find it more fruitful to seek out some public schoolers being taught by today's standards and quiz them and decide how well educated they are and go complain to their parents or try to turn them in to some legal entity.  Dead serious. 

[maize]

Tread softly. If someone went to your husband and tattled on you, how would you react? I would be livid. I asked my husband how he would react if someone approached him and said I was not doing a good enough job and tried to get him to correct me based on her request. The reaction would not be good.

 

You will get one of two things. Either the husband will be angry that you are trying to tattle to him about his wife and expecting him to run back to his wife and demand she change to fit your expectations. or he will side with you, showing some real fault in his marriage, likely causing problems. No good husband would go to his wife and order her to change how she is raising her children based on something that some other woman tattles to him.

 

No good can possibly come from this.

 

Perhaps if you went to them (both of them) and said "I noticed junior enjoyed doing math with my children, this happens to be an area I love, would you like him to come over and I can help him? I bet he would love doing more with my children." But then be prepared to teach someone else's children for free for a long time. But if you go to the husband alone and tell him his wife has been failing to teach the children properly and he needs to fix her and change what she is doing, will not fly. Only exception would be is if they have big marital problems to begin with and he loves the idea of bringing another woman in to the marriage to pit against his wife.

I don't think approaching the husband equates to tattling on the wife any more than approaching the wife equates to tattling on the husband. These children have two parents who are responsible for educating them. Right now education is not happening. Why in the world would it be wrong to discuss this with either parent? The father in this case seems to be at least as involved in the children's lives as the mother (who readily leaves him in sole charge when she goes out of town for a week). It seems obvious to me that he has equal responsibility for the children's education. OP has discussed the issue with the mother, it only seems right to broach the subject with the father.

[idnib]

FYI..my child came home from public school....5th grade, having never learned borrowing and carrying on multiplication, no long division. Only reason he knows math facts is I taught him. He does not know any sort of mechanics on grammar. He was still earning A's and passing all the standardized tests in Texas. You might find it more fruitful to seek out some public schoolers being taught by today's standards and quiz them and decide how well educated they are and go complain to their parents or try to turn them in to some legal entity.  Dead serious. 

 

But you taught him his math facts, yes? Why?

[Justmeandyou]

FYI..my child came home from public school....5th grade, having never learned borrowing and carrying on multiplication, no long division. Only reason he knows math facts is I taught him. He does not know any sort of mechanics on grammar. He was still earning A's and passing all the standardized tests in Texas. You might find it more fruitful to seek out some public schoolers being taught by today's standards and quiz them and decide how well educated they are and go complain to their parents or try to turn them in to some legal entity.  Dead serious. 

 

 My job IS to 'quiz' public schooled and private schooled kids.  You would know that if you had read the thread.  If our local school kids know as little as these guys, they get referred to me or someone like me for a thorough educational work up. 

Edited October 6, 2014 by Susan Wise Bauer
Edited to remove personal remarks.

[Justmeandyou]

Helpful things I've gotten from this thread:

 

Most people would reach out and try to help these kids

The school district can be contacted for truancy if no teaching is happening

Talk to dad -- this had not occurred to me as he is not the teacher/caregiver

Investigate splitting the kids among several homes to see if someone can catch them up

Call CPS as last resort, but consider it if there are no changes

 

 

Thanks everyone!

 

[Elisabet1]

nm 

 

Edited October 6, 2014 by Susan Wise Bauer
Please take a breath. Your tone here is extremely rude.

[albeto.]

I don't think approaching the husband equates to tattling on the wife any more than approaching the wife equates to tattling on the husband.

 

Think of it from the husband and wife's point of view. Elisabet1 has a good point: unsolicited advice smells of tattling, it smells of nosiness whether or not that's the intention (which is clearly not, but the husband and wife aren't likely to agree - or care).

 

These children have two parents who are responsible for educating them. Right now education is not happening.

 

That's the school district's responsibility to discern, not the OP's.

 

Why in the world would it be wrong to discuss this with either parent?

 

Because in the United States, it is socially inappropriate to involve yourself in someone else's affairs uninvited without good reason. Kids not learning to the satisfaction of an acquaintance is not good reason.

 

The father in this case seems to be at least as involved in the children's lives as the mother (who readily leaves him in sole charge when she goes out of town for a week). It seems obvious to me that he has equal responsibility for the children's education. OP has discussed the issue with the mother, it only seems right to broach the subject with the father.

 

Did the mother request the services of the OP? Did the father? Is this a service the OP offers acquaintances as a professional courtesy? 

[AimeeM]

nm

Tread softly. If someone went to your husband and tattled on you, how would you react? I would be livid. I asked my husband how he would react if someone approached him and said I was not doing a good enough job and tried to get him to correct me based on her request. The reaction would not be good.

 

You will get one of two things. Either the husband will be angry that you are trying to tattle to him about his wife and expecting him to run back to his wife and demand she change to fit your expectations. or he will side with you, showing some real fault in his marriage, likely causing problems. No good husband would go to his wife and order her to change how she is raising her children based on something that some other woman tattles to him.

 

No good can possibly come from this.

 

Perhaps if you went to them (both of them) and said "I noticed junior enjoyed doing math with my children, this happens to be an area I love, would you like him to come over and I can help him? I bet he would love doing more with my children." But then be prepared to teach someone else's children for free for a long time. But if you go to the husband alone and tell him his wife has been failing to teach the children properly and he needs to fix her and change what she is doing, will not fly. Only exception would be is if they have big marital problems to begin with and he loves the idea of bringing another woman in to the marriage to pit against his wife.

 

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Folks,

 

Please stick to the issue rather than focusing on each other.

 

SWB

[MomatHWTK]

Okay, I'll wade in....

 

If the mom tells me that the kids aren't in any school setting and she knows she should be working with them but doesn't find the time because she has other interests, then I'm going to tell her straight up that she either needs to school her kids or find someone else to do it.  Being busy with more interesting things isn't a good excuse.  I like to do lots of other things, but I still do the homeschooling "job" because that's what DH and I have decided to do.  I keep a checklist, I maintain the required number of days and I work to hold myself accountable.  I don't say I homeschool and then get too busy to get it done. It is VERY easy to let one or two days of that excuse slide into weeks and then months.  That's wrong and if I knew someone who laid out that scenario, I wouldn't kid myself that they were unschooling, I'd take them at their word. 

 

The woman is either ADHD (my problem), depressed, distracted or otherwise has some block that is keeping her from doing this important job.  If she is my friend and listens to my advice, I will help her. If she is my friend and gets mad because I tell her the truth about what I believe, then she's just not going to be my friend any more.  I'm not going to tip toe around what I think just because I don't want someone mad at me.  If I'm wrong and lose the friend, so be it.  As far as talking to the DH, I probably wouldn't just because I don't usually have that kind of relationship with friends' husbands.  But, I wouldn't hesitate to tell friend that she better get her stuff together before someone calls the authorities on her (whoever those authorities might be).  If I've noticed that the kids aren't really doing school others probably will too.   

 

Would I be the one to call?  I don't know, I'd have to think long and hard about it. 

 

For me, the reality is that if she continued to neglect the education entirely (which seems to be what OP believes) I would have to stop being her friend because I'm not going to validate that behavior with my friendship/ implied support. 

 

 

[Tiramisu]

I believe in my heart that we have the right to choose the educational path for our children and I'm not opposed to the right to unschool, but educational neglect is something different and the effects on the child go way beyond education. As those kids reach the teen years and start to compare themselves to their peers, the effect on their self-esteem is tragic. I've seen a boy who felt so "stupid" among his peers that he would cry, and then it turned to anger and violence, after years of the mom, by her own admission, did no schooling. The mom made the connection, not me. Another teen girl I know feels inferior to other kids and cries because she says she is learning nothing and feels like she knows nothing compared to the ps kids she's met. Again, from the mom, not me. Another family I know did get helpful intervention from other coop families, not the school district or CPS, and as painful as it was, it lead to changes that had a positive outcome, including a long overdue diagnosis of a significant developmental disability and the help that the family can get from that. 

 

There is a way to help this family, not that I know what it is. By what the mother shared with the OP, I believe she realizes the problem but needs help in making a positive change for herself and her children.

 

 

 

[mama27]

I'm thinking the OP really needs to just let it go. She may not like the way the kids are being educated but really, if there is no actual abuse going on, calling CPS will traumatize these kids and their parents way more than not reading at the level that they "should" be at.

The kids are clean, cared for, the OP says they travel a lot, are in art co-op type classes, maybe the parents are unschoolers but haven't accepted that about themselves. I know famiies like this. One in particular that I know has 5 kids kids and NONE of them were at the level, academically, where "they" say they should be yet the oldest 3 are all productive adults. 2 own their own houses, all 3 own their own cars, one is married, etc. The 2 still at home have caught up. The family did travel a lot, moved a lot, did a lot of sport oriented activities.

Is that the way "I" would educate my kids? No. Does that mean I should have butted in and called CPS? NO!!!

If you  have talked the parents (there are two parents that should be involved in this, not just one) and told them your concerns but don't see any changes, then maybe you should just MYOB and worry about your own kids.

[Matryoshka]

the OP says they travel a lot, are in art co-op type classes, maybe the parents are unschoolers but haven't accepted that about themselves. I know famiies like this. One in particular that I know has 5 kids kids and NONE of them were at the level, academically, where "they" say they should be yet the oldest 3 are all productive adults. 2 own their own houses, all 3 own their own cars, one is married, etc. The 2 still at home have caught up. The family did travel a lot, moved a lot, did a lot of sport oriented activities.

 

No, she didn't say they travel a lot.  She said the mother travels a lot, leaving the kids at home unsupervised during the day, or hanging out at friends' houses.  That is hugely different than a family traveling together.  Not even close to the same thing.  The kids are not having new experiences, being exposed to the world, or seeing new places.   They are not going anywhere.

 

[mama27]

No, she didn't say they travel a lot.  She said the mother travels a lot, leaving the kids at home unsupervised during the day, or hanging out at friends' houses.  That is hugely different than a family traveling together.  Not even close to the same thing.  The kids are not having new experiences, being exposed to the world, or seeing new places.   They are not going anywhere.

 

 

According to post #16 she said the mom is a fun mom and they travel a lot.

 

[mama27]

According to post #16 she said the mom is a fun mom and they travel a lot.

 

 

post 21, not 16.

[Matryoshka]

According to post #16 21 she said the mom is a fun mom and they travel a lot.

 

She said that once, but if you read the whole thread, they seem to be alone a lot more.  Last weekend they were at OP's house.  Apparently right now the mom is gone again for a week and a half.  When the OP was made (not that long ago), the mom was gone for a week, and one of the kids was at OP's house.

[mama27]

Not ideal, I admit, but also not abusive. The dad is there for breakfast and dinner, she said. Sounds like he doesn't have long work days.

 

[Jayne J]

So, very tentatively, I am jumping in to ask a question that has been occurring to me as I've kept up with the thread over the last few days. Several posters have stated that it would be fine if she were unschooling, but since the mother has stated that she *means* to teach them but just never gets to it, she is *not* unschooling. My question stems from that thought. Is there a difference between an *intentional* unschooler and an "accidental" unschooler? How would the children's lives look any different if the mom declared herself an unschooler? Is unschooling educational neglect? What is the difference?

 

I am asking in seriousness--I have no agenda regarding unschooling. It just seems that some posters feel that the label makes a difference, and my understanding of unschooling (which admittedly may be uninformed) is that the actual outworking of unschooling may look very much like what is happening here.

[Haiku]

My opinion is that unschooling is a family culture as much as or more than it is an educational environment. As such, I believe that there is a difference between choosing to embrace an unschooling approach to life and simply being too busy or uninterested to see to your child's education. I believe that most unschoolers, even if they are not directing their child's education, are supporting their child's education by assisting their child in the child's pursuits and endeavors and being a resource. I believe that successful unschoolers care whether their children become educated and that that care pervades the family culture and expectations in perhaps intangible ways. I think the environment (physically, certainly, but mental and family cultural) of a successful unschooling family is different than that of of a family whose parents are simply too busy or uninterested to be bothered with their children's education.

 

My opinion is also that unschoolers can be (not are, but can be) educationally neglectful. If children are into their teen years or are young adults and are lacking basic academic skills, then their parents have been neglectful. Really, there is no excuse (aside from severe LDs or developmental delays) for a 13 year old to not know how to read and write numbers above 100, how to identify the basic arithmetic symbols, what the letter sounds are, etc. It is neglectful to be just fine with your teenager being ignorant of basic academic skills. I can't even imagine how that happens, honestly, because it seems to me that someone would have to intentionally attempt to keep that knowledge from a reasonably typically developing child for a teenager to be ignorant of it.

[mama27]

So, very tentatively, I am jumping in to ask a question that has been occurring to me as I've kept up with the thread over the last few days. Several posters have stated that it would be fine if she were unschooling, but since the mother has stated that she *means* to teach them but just never gets to it, she is *not* unschooling. My question stems from that thought. Is there a difference between an *intentional* unschooler and an "accidental" unschooler? How would the children's lives look any different if the mom declared herself an unschooler? Is unschooling educational neglect? What is the difference?

 

I am asking in seriousness--I have no agenda regarding unschooling. It just seems that some posters feel that the label makes a difference, and my understanding of unschooling (which admittedly may be uninformed) is that the actual outworking of unschooling may look very much like what is happening here.

 

I don't think there is a difference. Unschooling, IMO, is basically allowing your child to learn things on their own, as they choose to. I know of at least 3 families who would never identify themselves as unschoolers but they ARE.Their kids want to take an art class, they take an art class. They want to play football, they play football. They want to raise pigs, they raise pigs. And I don't mean throwing a football around in a yard, or raising a pig on a video game. They play on teams. They show the pigs. They eat them. They write plays and perform them in church or at scouts or wherever. They spend hours building the solar system because they want to. They ride horses in shows, they fix cars, etc.

Can/will/did these kids take algebra at grade 9? No. Neither did I and I went to PS!

Maybe these kids that the OP knows are knowledgable in things like alternative meds, cooking meals from scratch, making their own clothes, fixing electrical appliances. Maybe they've learned those things by doing them and not by reading them. Who knows?

The above examples are from families that I actually KNOW, not just ones I've read about or pulled out of my head.

[mama27]

My opinion is that unschooling is a family culture as much as or more than it is an educational environment. As such, I believe that there is a difference between choosing to embrace an unschooling approach to life and simply being too busy or uninterested to see to your child's education. I believe that most unschoolers, even if they are not directing their child's education, are supporting their child's education by assisting their child in the child's pursuits and endeavors and being a resource. I believe that successful unschoolers care whether their children become educated and that that care pervades the family culture and expectations in perhaps intangible ways. I think the environment (physically, certainly, but mental and family cultural) of a successful unschooling family is different than that of of a family whose parents are simply too busy or uninterested to be bothered with their children's education.

 

My opinion is also that unschoolers can be (not are, but can be) educationally neglectful. If children are into their teen years or are young adults and are lacking basic academic skills, then their parents have been neglectful. Really, there is no excuse (aside from severe LDs or developmental delays) for a 13 year old to not know how to read and write numbers above 100, how to identify the basic arithmetic symbols, what the letter sounds are, etc. It is neglectful to be just fine with your teenager being ignorant of basic academic skills. I can't even imagine how that happens, honestly, because it seems to me that someone would have to intentionally attempt to keep that knowledge from a reasonably typically developing child for a teenager to be ignorant of it.

 

We don't actually know if the 13 yo does have LDs or not ad honestly, the more of the OP posts I read the more I feel as if she doesn't approve of the way the kids are being raised and even though I may agree with her that it's not the way "I" raise my kids, calling CPS even as a "last" resort because the mom won't do what the OP thinks she should is far beyond what needs to be done. The OP has already said it's her JOB to asses kids in the ps system so it seems to me, she has a ps mentality. Which is fine, she's allowed. But obviously not all homeschoolers share that mentality.

 

[maize]

What if one of these kids shows up in your co-op class?  How do you handle it?  How do you not make them feel stupid?  A 15yo is WAY behind a high school writing class and would be better in a 5th- 7th grade class.  How do you do that?

 

I saw your post about this. Do you think the kid realizes how behind he is? Does he seem willing to work hard and try to catch up? To just try to work at his level and benefit however he can from the class?

 

I've been in the position of being drastically behind because I was attending school in a foreign language. If the teachers were willing to work with me I was willing to do what I could with the understanding that I was really not able at that time to work at the level of the class.