Do I confront my father about this? If I do, how?

[AimeeM]

Non-confrontational person alert! (that would be me)

 

I struggled about whether or not to post this, so please be gentle with me. I've struggled greatly with whether or not to allow them contact with our children, despite what has happened between them and us (my husband and myself).

 

We made a conscious decision to allow our eldest (almost 13) to maintain a relationship with my father and step-mother (if you remember previous posts, this would Toxic Person, or She Who Must Not Be Named) - DD missed them terribly and is incredibly close with both. Beyond that, we had been assured by family who lives close to them that She was attending counseling and doing very well. Apparently, this was simply a front put on for the benefit of others. Or, She may be doing well individually, but it's obvious the counseling didn't include couples' counseling or marriage counseling :P

 

I have maintained contact with my father, but we had cut my step mother out of our lives and have not communicated with her in over a year (myself and my husband).

 

DD spent a week in florida with them this summer. It isn't going to happen again. When she got home, although she said she had a great time visiting water parks, etc, she also told me that they fought constantly (consistent with what I remember from my own childhood with them), and that my step mother yelled at my father frequently and that this resulted in frequent yelling matches, and that DD felt the need to hide in her bedroom during these fights. That DD didn't feel she could call us, makes me too uncomfortable to allow it again. We had specifically told her to call us if she felt uncomfortable at all (we have other family down there who could have picked her up immediately), but she was having "too much fun to risk coming home". <---- to me this means that she isn't yet mature enough to discern a safe environment from one that she needs help in (and this isn't a knock on her, she is only 12 and had been long looking forward to this trip - she just isn't ready to do anything that could cause waves).

 

My father's idea of "doing well" is different than my own. He sincerely feels that their relationship is healthy and that our childhood (mine and my sisters') was perfect - he very sincerely doesn't seem to realize that throwing things at each other, yelling nightly, calling each other names, children hiding in their bedrooms, is perfectly and totally normal and "okay". He believes that since we ( his children) were loved and provided for, his relationship with his wife should have had no affect on us (it did - on all of us).

 

Sorry for the ramble. Bottom line - DD isn't going back. I'm not sure how to approach this with my father, or that it's even worth approaching, as I have before and he simply DOESN'T GET IT - he does NOT understand that this isn't healthy or an okay thing for my daughter to be around.

 

I do love my father very much. I even understand why, on his scope, this seems okay. He was raised in a terribly abusive home, until him and his siblings were eventually put into an equally abusive foster care system (low monitoring in the 70's, apparently) and series of group homes. Compared to his own childhood, I understand why he sees the verbal abuse him and his wife put each other through as low on the scale of "bad home life", especially when he feels since it doesn't directly involve the children, it doesn't affect them.

 

If I mention this, I have little doubt that I will hear from him rarely. If I do not mention this, he will ask and ask for more visits with DD. As she's only 12, that would mean another many years of trying to find excuses as to why the answer is "no", and that would be incredibly difficult to maintain.

 

I'll again say that she isn't going again. To try to work this out to allow it isn't in the cards. I never should have believed anything had changed in the first place (it never does), and I deeply regret exposing her to this dynamic.

 

 

[Momling]

I am pretty non-confrontational too and would just lay low. No decisions or discussions need to be had right now. If/when it comes up again, I'd just say that dd loved the water parks but felt uncomfortable about the arguing and leave it at that. How wonderful they don't live right nearby!

[*Lulu*]

I wouldn't confront because you already know it won't make a difference.

 

Instead, I would decide, with your husband, what the "party line" is going to be and start practicing. When the next situation arises, use the well practiced party line.

 

His reaction is not your responsibility or within your control. (That is the hard part. When you grow up with dysfunction you start to plan your behavior/words based on mitigating the reaction of the dysfunctional and end up with a false sense of control.)

[Aiden]

I wouldn't bring it up, but when he asks for her to come back, I'd be honest with him. "She's not coming back because the arguing and fighting is not a good situation for her to be in. I know you'd never knowingly hurt her, and you don't believe that you are hurting her with this violence between you and Stepmother, but you are. When she's an adult, she'll be free to make her own decisions. Until then, her father and I have to protect her, and this is how we're doing it. No, this is not up for discussion. No, it will not be up for discussion ever again. Oh, you insist on discussing it? Bye, Dad, I love you." Click.

[texasmama]

I am pretty non-confrontational too and would just lay low. No decisions or discussions need to be had right now. If/when it comes up again, I'd just say that dd loved the water parks but felt uncomfortable about the arguing and leave it at that. How wonderful they don't live right nearby!

This exactly.

 

I don't see anything to be gained by confronting your father at this time about something that is not going to be allowed in the future anyway.  I assume that the invitations to spend a week with them come few and far between so the next time she is invited I would say that the yelling between he and his wife made her uncomfortable so dd does not choose to come at this time and that you support this decision.

[AimeeM]

This exactly.

 

I don't see anything to be gained by confronting your father at this time about something that is not going to be allowed in the future anyway.  I assume that the invitations to spend a week with them come few and far between so the next time she is invited I would say that the yelling between he and his wife made her uncomfortable so dd does not choose to come at this time and that you support this decision.

 

Now that DD is homeschooling again, I expect the invitations to become more frequent (as they did when she homeschooled before). Of course, I can always use academics and extracurriculars as an excuse why she can't go.

 

Whatever party line I use, if I do so, needs to be one that can maintain 5 more years, lol.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm thinking that she needs to still have a relationship with them, but in a safe way.  You said that she is very close to them, and they are family, so that plays into this for me.

 

I'm not sure how to accomplish that 'safety'.  It's not going to be by virtue of them changing--that is clear.

 

Can you go with her?  Can you talk with her about how to feel safe despite them yelling at each other, maybe by leaving for a bit?  Can she stay with other relatives nearby and visit with your dad daily, but for a few hours instead of overnight?  Is she old enough to ask them to stop while she is there?  (I would totally do that, or leave when it happens, but I'm a grown adult.  I certainly could not have done this when I was a teenager.)  I'm not saying that any of these are ideal solutions, but maybe they will trigger other ideas. 

 

 

[texasmama]

Now that DD is homeschooling again, I expect the invitations to become more frequent (as they did when she homeschooled before). Of course, I can always use academics and extracurriculars as an excuse why she can't go.

 

Whatever party line I use, if I do so, needs to be one that can maintain 5 more years, lol.

I think I view it slightly differently in that I don't think you have to pick a line and stay with it for the foreseeable future.  I would say the truth when it becomes necessary and then each time an invitation comes around, you can repeat it if it is still the truth.  Other truths may come up.  Things change.  And academics are just as valid a reason with homeschooling as with public or private schooling so that seems very appropriate if you do not want to confront the issue with your dad at this point.

[bolt.]

I would say the truth, but with a bit of a hint towards her being "sensitive" to "arguing" -- rather than outright saying that their "yelling" is just a very wrong thing.

 

After saying the reason once or twice continue to say, "I know, but it's not going to work." // "I understand. It's just not going to happen." // "No, sorry, I've already decided." // "I get it, but I'm done talking about it. I've decided. The answer is no."

[AimeeM]

I'm thinking that she needs to still have a relationship with them, but in a safe way.  You said that she is very close to them, and they are family, so that plays into this for me.

 

I'm not sure how to accomplish that 'safety'.  It's not going to be by virtue of them changing--that is clear.

 

Can you go with her?  Can you talk with her about how to feel safe despite them yelling at each other, maybe by leaving for a bit?  Can she stay with other relatives nearby and visit with your dad daily, but for a few hours instead of overnight?  Is she old enough to ask them to stop while she is there?  (I would totally do that, or leave when it happens, but I'm a grown adult.  I certainly could not have done this when I was a teenager.)  I'm not saying that any of these are ideal solutions, but maybe they will trigger other ideas. 

 

I absolutely will not go with her. I severed contact with my stepmother for other reasons (not the fighting) and I cannot/will not waver on that.

I agree she should maintain contact, but at this time, that will have to be phone calls only, as the family that lives "nearby" is only within driving distance - but it would take them quite a bit of time to get there (they are simply closer than we are).

She will not ask them to stop. <----- this is why we decided the visits must stop. She isn't at a point where she feels safe asking them to stop, or calling others to come and get her (this would mean she comes home).

 

[TranquilMind]

So they argued a lot (you didn't say anything about hitting or throwing things around your daughter -did that happen)?  She was having enough fun to just be annoyed by it but deal with it, taking the good from the visit.  I guess I don't get it.   I can't imagine a 12 year old calling home asking to be removed because of arguments and how arguments - unpleasant as they are - constitute an "unsafe environment". ?

 

 

I think you are letting your own baggage from childhood get in the way here. 

 

 

They live far away and will not likely see your daughter often anyway.    She can decide if she finds it annoying enough not to go, assuming they aren't hurting her and the arguing isn't nonstop the entire time she is visiting. 

 

I think the nuclear option of cutting everyone off that I see people advocate all the time is overkill, just based on the facts you have given. 

 

Sounds like your Dad is doing the best he can, with the tools he has from his own upbringing.  Why not a gentle conversation about how this affected all of you and how you'd appreciate it if they could refrain from arguing and yelling while your daughter is visiting instead? 

 

 

I just totally disagree with the hardline stance and cutting off family - unless that family is Charles Manson quality. 

 

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[AimeeM]

Respectfully, the rest of the family is no contact with my step mother for other reasons. We have allowed phone contact, and this visit, for my oldest because she is the only grandchild with whom they have maintained a long bond with. We will no waver on cutting step mother off from the rest of us, because of past incidents (none of which directly affected eldest dd in an unsafe way).

 

While I understand that you do not agree with cutting off physical contact, that decision has already been made. It may indeed be because of my own baggage, but most of make decisions for our own children based on our own reflections, feelings, and/or experience. I will not allow my daughter to think that healthy relationships consist of yelling, screaming, and name calling.

 

I think that, fundamentally, you and I have different ideas of what "unsafe" means. For us, that means DD's mental wellbeing and long term outlook is safeguarded, not just her physical wellbeing. And it's okay to have differing opinions - that's what I like about this board :)

 

I do not doubt that my daughter is physically safe while in their care, but that does not mean it is a healthy place to be, emotionally, and that is every bit as important to me as her physical safety.

 

DD has expressed before that she recognizes and notices that Nana is "different" (mentally ill, diagnosed, will randomly seek, but always quit, treatment), and that she feels like she must walk on eggshells around her. That is concerning. When I say that DD is close to them, I should clarify that she worships my father and adores him, and has said before that she is willing to put up with almost anything from her Nana to be near him a couple times a year (they used to live only an hour from us and she saw him very frequently, and she still mourns his move deeply - they are exceptionally close). She definitely does love her Nana, but is, unfortunately, intimately aware that her Nana can go from laughing and having fun one minute, to screaming the next, without much notice, and doesn't always make sense.

 

Physical threat? No. Healthy position to be in when you're 12 and unsure what or when you should speak up? No.

So they argued a lot (you didn't say anything about hitting or throwing things around your daughter -did that happen)?  She was having enough fun to just be annoyed by it but deal with it, taking the good from the visit.  I guess I don't get it.   I can't imagine a 12 year old calling home asking to be removed because of arguments and how arguments - unpleasant as they are - constitute an "unsafe environment". ?

 

 

I think you are letting your own baggage from childhood get in the way here. 

 

 

They live far away and will not likely see your daughter often anyway.    She can decide if she finds it annoying enough not to go, assuming they aren't hurting her and the arguing isn't nonstop the entire time she is visiting. 

 

I think the nuclear option of cutting everyone off that I see people advocate all the time is overkill, just based on the facts you have given. 

 

Sounds like your Dad is doing the best he can, with the tools he has from his own upbringing.  Why not a gentle conversation about how this affected all of you and how you'd appreciate it if they could refrain from arguing and yelling while your daughter is visiting instead? 

 

 

I just totally disagree with the hardline stance and cutting off family - unless that family is Charles Manson quality. 

 

[TranquilMind]

I think it is pretty serious business to cut off family who will be dead soon anyway.

 

 

But then I know that better than most people, I guess.  Going to what....my 25th funeral, this week? 

 

 

I think the nuclear option is almost never the best and only option.  Limited visits can happen.  Meetings at public places can happen.  Special things with grandpa only could happen. 

 

 

He could die in a few years, but she can't have a relationship with him because you don't want her to hear arguing or be around his wife, even though you admit she is physically safe there on these rare visits.  Your tactic does not only target the wife here.   

 

 

I guess I've just been through a, shall we say,  less-than-stellar childhood and have little sympathy for this nuclear option that I see (mostly younger) women advocate all the time.  We just don't roll that way. We suck it up.   The ones who are more difficult to be around, you just don't see as often or you see in group settings, but there is no "cutting off" (again, absent Charles Manson type issues). 

 

It could backfire on you if you eliminate the relationship between the 12 year old and her grandpa. 

 

 

Just sharing that ever-popular other side of the coin here.  You have decided anyway, but I just felt compelled to share that other side, futile as it appears. 

Carry on.

 

 

 

Respectfully, the rest of the family is no contact with my step mother for other reasons. We have allowed phone contact, and this visit, for my oldest because she is the only grandchild with whom they have maintained a long bond with. We will no waver on cutting step mother off from the rest of us, because of past incidents (none of which directly affected eldest dd in an unsafe way).

 

While I understand that you do not agree with cutting off physical contact, that decision has already been made. It may indeed be because of my own baggage, but most of make decisions for our own children based on our own reflections, feelings, and/or experience. I will not allow my daughter to think that healthy relationships consist of yelling, screaming, and name calling.

 

I think that, fundamentally, you and I have different ideas of what "unsafe" means. For us, that means DD's mental wellbeing and long term outlook is safeguarded, not just her physical wellbeing. And it's okay to have differing opinions - that's what I like about this board :)

 

I do not doubt that my daughter is physically safe while in their care, but that does not mean it is a healthy place to be, emotionally, and that is every bit as important to me as her physical safety.

 

DD has expressed before that she recognizes and notices that Nana is "different" (mentally ill, diagnosed, will randomly seek, but always quit, treatment), and that she feels like she must walk on eggshells around her. That is concerning. When I say that DD is close to them, I should clarify that she worships my father and adores him, and has said before that she is willing to put up with almost anything from her Nana to be near him a couple times a year (they used to live only an hour from us and she saw him very frequently, and she still mourns his move deeply - they are exceptionally close). She definitely does love her Nana, but is, unfortunately, intimately aware that her Nana can go from laughing and having fun one minute, to screaming the next, without much notice, and doesn't always make sense.

 

Physical threat? No. Healthy position to be in when you're 12 and unsure what or when you should speak up? No.

 

[Elisabet1]

You don't need to be confrontational. Your daughter can just be very busy all the time where she cannot break away to be shipped down there for a week. 

 

(((hugs)))

 

We have had to cut out relatives in the past. And we have always regretted it when we folded and gave them room to hurt us and/or the children again.

[AimeeM]

I think it is pretty serious business to cut off family who will be dead soon anyway.

 

 

But then I know that better than most people, I guess.  Going to what....my 25th funeral, this week? 

 

 

I think the nuclear option is almost never the best and only option.  Limited visits can happen.  Meetings at public places can happen.  Special things with grandpa only could happen. 

 

 

He could die in a few years, but she can't have a relationship with him because you don't want her to hear arguing or be around his wife, even though you admit she is physically safe there on these rare visits.  Your tactic does not only target the wife here.   

 

 

I guess I've just been through a, shall we say,  less-than-stellar childhood and have little sympathy for this nuclear option that I see (mostly younger) women advocate all the time.  We just don't roll that way. We suck it up.   The ones who are more difficult to be around, you just don't see as often or you see in group settings, but there is no "cutting off" (again, absent Charles Manson type issues). 

 

It could backfire on you if you eliminate the relationship between the 12 year old and her grandpa. 

 

 

Just sharing that ever-popular other side of the coin here.  You have decided anyway, but I just felt compelled to share that other side, futile as it appears. 

Carry on.

 

I'm so sorry that you've had a rough week. Sincerely.

Please understand, though, that I wasn't asking for opinions on a decision that has already been made. I was asking advice on what needs to be said.

 

[AimeeM]

You don't need to be confrontational. Your daughter can just be very busy all the time where she cannot break away to be shipped down there for a week. 

 

(((hugs)))

 

We have had to cut out relatives in the past. And we have always regretted it when we folded and gave them room to hurt us and/or the children again.

 

Thank you for this. We have folded and given room for the past 6 years. Every single time we have regretted it. Carrying on a relationship with my stepmother makes everyone miserable, and I'm not willing to turn my own home into a miserable place. Unfortunately, it has become clear that this will have to affect my dad. <---- that, I do regret.

 

[RootAnn]

Aimee - Is there anyway your dad (alone) would/could come visit you guys? If so, when the invite comes, you could invite HIM to come up - w/out her. 

 

If not, I'm just sending  :grouphug: . I loved my dad dearly while my mother is tough to deal with (although no where near in the realm your step-mother seems to be). We visited often while he was alive. We don't make it as often now that he's dead. There are lines that we've drawn w/my mom and if she crosses them, she is cut off from my kids. My dd#2 is in tears because she doesn't want to grow up / get taller because then 'grandma won't love [her] anymore.' When I pointed this out to my mother, gma nodded (that it would be true) but wouldn't meet my eyes to own up to the pain she's putting dd in. No where near physical danger from violence or verbal screaming, but emotional abuse can be just as traumatic.

 

:grouphug:

[AimeeM]

He appears to want to visit. When he came to pick up DD, he stayed the night here and visited; the same when he came to bring her home.

However, no, he would not accept an invite specifically to visit without her. He has made it quite clear that I need to get over, and give her more chances (how many? As many as she needs, according to him).

 

I'm sorry you've been through anything similar. I agree with you about emotional abuse. When I did once tell my father that our childhoods were emotionally abusive, and that she was emotionally abusive to him (and, I suspect, when she went into her rages, physically abusive - throwing things; I can't swear that she still throws things, though), he very specifically said that it was nothing compared to what he went through as a child, and that I needed to grow up.

Aimee - Is there anyway your dad (alone) would/could come visit you guys? If so, when the invite comes, you could invite HIM to come up - w/out her. 

 

If not, I'm just sending  :grouphug: . I loved my dad dearly while my mother is tough to deal with (although no where near in the realm your step-mother seems to be). We visited often while he was alive. We don't make it as often now that he's dead. There are lines that we've drawn w/my mom and if she crosses them, she is cut off from my kids. My dd#2 is in tears because she doesn't want to grow up / get taller because then 'grandma won't love [her] anymore.' When I pointed this out to my mother, gma nodded (that it would be true) but wouldn't meet my eyes to own up to the pain she's putting dd in. No where near physical danger from violence or verbal screaming, but emotional abuse can be just as traumatic.

 

:grouphug:

 

[myfunnybunch]

 I was asking advice on what needs to be said.

 

 

 

Aimee, here's what *needs* to be said: "I'm sorry, dd is not available this summer."

 

Full stop.

 

You do not owe any other explanation or discussion. You may choose to add information or engage in discussion if you feel it might be fruitful, but you are not in any way obligated to soothe ruffled feathers or explain yourself or justify your decision. If pressed, you just repeat that she's not available and politely end the conversation, unless YOU are comfortable offering more.

 

:grouphug: What a painful situation for everyone. I'm sorry, I can tell it really stinks. :(

 

Cat

 

[gardenmom5]

I wouldn't say anything until he brings it up.  when he asks - just say their fighting is upsetting to her, and until she's older it won't be possible for her to go visit them.  make yourself the bad guy, not your dd.  or you can simply say - can't come.  "why?"  becasue she can't. change subject.

 

do not make excuses - make it a statement of fact. 

[gardenmom5]

Now that DD is homeschooling again, I expect the invitations to become more frequent (as they did when she homeschooled before). Of course, I can always use academics and extracurriculars as an excuse why she can't go.

 

Whatever party line I use, if I do so, needs to be one that can maintain 5 more years, lol.

don't use an excuse  - as you've noticed, it isn't satisfactory, he'll just push some more because he thinks there will be an opening elsewhere.  be blunt - she can't come.  end of story, change the subject.  if you feel like it, or he keeps pushing, be truthful.  their fighting upsets her, and she shouldn't have to be subjected to it.

 

he very specifically said that it was nothing compared to what he went through as a child, and that I needed to grow up.

I can believe he went through worse - that does NOT make yelling and throwing things healthy for a child to be around.  and the next time he tries that line on you - tell him that!. 

[trulycrabby]

I wouldn't confront him, she just wouldn't be available for visits that involve the stepmother. If he asks, just be honest; he has to realize that being around a person with severe mental illness isn't healthy for his grandchildren.

 

It's painful; I have had to cut off my sister for this reason, but I know that she will never consider the health or safety of my child above her needs, and she she always tries to recruit him into her web of lies, drama, and dysfunction.

 

:grouphug:

[zoobie]

If the woman is too toxic for you to be around, she's certainly too toxic for a child. I don't have a whole lot of patience for the "healthy" co-parent who allows abuse to continue either. As you want to continue having a relationship with him regardless, I would do it at your house or where you can supervise. "No, she cannot come to your house, but you may come here to see her. The decision is not up for discussion." If he chooses not to do that or is a jerk to you, that's his choice. Any explanation is going to get push back and argument. That's how the game works. You don't need to provide justification to anyone for your parenting choices.

[Harriet Vane]

If your stepmother is not good for you to be around, she is not good for dd either. This will be especially true as dd gets older. At some point stepmother will no longer perceive her as a child, and your dd will be in the line of fire as well.

 

Don't have this discussion. It will only go around and around and ramp up the drama.

 

It will also turn your dd into "the bad guy" because she is the one who was uncomfortable there. DO NOT bring your dd's feelings into this. Doing so will put her in danger (emotionally or yes, physically. Someone who throws things can and will hurt people.)

 

Just be soooo busy and just say, "No, a visit is not going to work out." Then CHANGE THE SUBJECT. Do not engage in a long-winded discussion about this, and do not enter into any drama.

 

One more suggestion is to let your dd Skype with her grandfather. Seeing each other on screen brings a whole new dimension to the conversation.

[Alicia64]

I am pretty non-confrontational too and would just lay low. No decisions or discussions need to be had right now. If/when it comes up again, I'd just say that dd loved the water parks but felt uncomfortable about the arguing and leave it at that. How wonderful they don't live right nearby!

 

I agree w/ laying low. I'm exhausted from my day. . . and I'm might rethink this in the a.m., but in a year or two it's possible you might just say, "oh, Janey, is in the teen years and doesn't want to leave her friends." Or something like that.

 

I'm not into being non confrontational and vague -- but given that he'll exit your life. . . flying under the radar now and finding silly excuses later might take you through these years.

 

Alley

[AimeeM]

That is where I struggle. When do I draw the line at my children. As she hasn't been directly toxic *to* them, do I allow them to maintain contact? Initially I thought that I should, but as mentioned upthread, as DD gets older, she keeps her mouth shut less when she gets upset (understandably so). I do fear what will happen should she say what's really on her mind (as she does at home, lol).

[VeteranMom]

I'd welcome them to come and visit her.  Chaperone all interactions, though.  I wouldn't put her on a plane to go see them again. 

You can't change people, but you can change the situation for your dd.  That's the only control you have.  I wouldn't even bring it up to them.  Their behavior doesn't warrant you to be put in an uncomfortable situation of having to explain yourself or defend the decision to them.  Poor behavior has consequences.  I'd just say she's very involved in activities and travel is too difficult at this time (and for the next 5 years).   

[Joanne]

Aimee,

 

Please trust your gut and knowledge; these people will not become safe for your kids to be around. They won't. You do 't owe them access to your kids. They don't deserve more chances simply by virtue of "family."

 

It was an understandable mistake to let her go. You were raised with such insanity that it clouds your ability to advocate for your kids.

 

Tell them your therapist says "no" Ok, I am kidding on that one! But, seriously, "no, and don't ask again" is sufficient. If they persist, click, hang up or walk out.

 

As for the minimization up thread about safety and safe environments, what you describe is "no contact" worthy. You can chose another level of engagement, but the content of how they behave is valid to match a no contact response.

[gardenmom5]

That is where I struggle. When do I draw the line at my children. As she hasn't been directly toxic *to* them, do I allow them to maintain contact? Initially I thought that I should, but as mentioned upthread, as DD gets older, she keeps her mouth shut less when she gets upset (understandably so). I do fear what will happen should she say what's really on her mind (as she does at home, lol).

 

think of it like smoking.  just being around it is bad for you.  the more she is aware of what is happening, the worse it will be - even if she doesn't say anything that would get objects flying through the air towards her.

 

[gardenmom5]

A

 

Tell them your therapist says "no" Ok, I am kidding on that one! B

 

she can tell them the hive said "no". :closedeyes:  

 

and to paraphrase woody from toy story "we hivers are e.v.e.r.y.w.h.e.r.e."  (so, back off!) :001_tt2:

[jmama]

Aimee, I grew up spending weekends with a dad and stepmother who fought all the time.  Always yelling, screaming, me hiding in my room.  Then I'd go home and never tell my mom what was going on.  I just want to commend you for trying to protect your daughter from this. 

 

I eventually stopped going for overnights because I was just too busy with the things teens do.  Maybe that is the excuse you can use, just a normal busy teen social life. 

 

 

[AimeeM]

I'd welcome them to come and visit her.  Chaperone all interactions, though.  I wouldn't put her on a plane to go see them again. 

You can't change people, but you can change the situation for your dd.  That's the only control you have.  I wouldn't even bring it up to them.  Their behavior doesn't warrant you to be put in an uncomfortable situation of having to explain yourself or defend the decision to them.  Poor behavior has consequences.  I'd just say she's very involved in activities and travel is too difficult at this time (and for the next 5 years).   

 

Step mother isn't allowed on our property, and my father will not accept an invite without her (I don't think).

[fraidycat]

Step mother isn't allowed on our property, and my father will not accept an invite without her (I don't think).

Well, then that is HIS choice to not see his grandchildren if he chooses to say no.

 

Then you're off the hook from any guilty feelings you are having. You just expand your no-contact boundary with SM to include your DD into the "circle of protection".

 

Your Dad doesn't have to LIKE your boundaries, but he does have to live with them.

[Catwoman]

He appears to want to visit. When he came to pick up DD, he stayed the night here and visited; the same when he came to bring her home.

However, no, he would not accept an invite specifically to visit without her. He has made it quite clear that I need to get over, and give her more chances (how many? As many as she needs, according to him).

 

I'm sorry you've been through anything similar. I agree with you about emotional abuse. When I did once tell my father that our childhoods were emotionally abusive, and that she was emotionally abusive to him (and, I suspect, when she went into her rages, physically abusive - throwing things; I can't swear that she still throws things, though), he very specifically said that it was nothing compared to what he went through as a child, and that I needed to grow up.

Tell him you have grown up and that you're protecting your child because that's what a good parent does -- and that maybe it's time for him to grow up, too, and start protecting the people his wife has been harming, instead of making excuses for her insanity.

 

If he wants to tolerate the craziness, that's his business. But he has no right to expect you or your family to deal with it.

[Mandy in TN]

People disagree. Sometimes, they disagree loudly. That doesn't mean that they don't love each other. I see harm in pretending relationships are Polyanna perfect and people never raise their voices, never curse, and never say things in anger that they don't mean.

 

That said I don't know the background here and mental illness is a whole different animal. If for any reason you feel that this is a dangerous environment, then you owe no explanation. I agree with the previous poster who said not to mention your dd or her feelings. Just keep it short and direct, "Thank you for the offer. Dd can't come visit, but we would love to have you come here without step-mom." Based on what you have said, it sounds like he will understand why even if he doesn't agree. If he tries to talk you into allowing her to come visit, tell him you love him very much. Then, repeat that you really look forward to planning a visit with him, but that dd is not going there.

 

If nothing is going to change, then there is no point in discussing step-mother's mental illness. She can't help being mentally ill. He obviously isn't going to leave her. Nothing to discuss. It isn't a place you want your dd. Again, "I love you, Dad. Dd is not coming there. We would really like for you to come up."

 

Bummer of a situation, but kuddos to your dad for taking care of a wife with mental illness for all these years. That's got to be rough. If I were mentally ill, I hope I would be lucky enough to have someone responsible, strong, and caring enough to love me enough to not leave me on the street, in a shelter, or (best case scenario) in a group home (unless, of course, it was absolutely necessary). I know that isn't helpful to you or your dd. Mental illness is really hard on families.

Mandy

[Harriet Vane]

That is where I struggle. When do I draw the line at my children. As she hasn't been directly toxic *to* them, do I allow them to maintain contact? Initially I thought that I should, but as mentioned upthread, as DD gets older, she keeps her mouth shut less when she gets upset (understandably so). I do fear what will happen should she say what's really on her mind (as she does at home, lol).

 

The line needs to be drawn now, immediately, and it is based on your expertise on this woman's behavior and mindset.

 

Do NOT wait for stepmother to be directly toxic TO them. I promise, someday she will be harmful directly to them. Do not wait for that day. Circle the wagons NOW.

 

Two factors to consider are that your dd is getting older. As I said upthread, at some point stepmother will not perceive your dd as a child anymore and will be horrible towards her. If you try to guess at when that point will be, you will guess wrong, and your daughter will be hurt.

 

The other factor to consider is that your stepmother is aging. Her ability to maintain any semblance of good behavior or boundaries will get worse as she gets older. At some point, she really could be a danger to children or to others who have not previously been under fire from her.

 

If she is not safe for you, she is definitely not safe for your children.

 

Don't take on any guilt for your father's rotten decisions to live in denial of his wife's behavior either.

[AimeeM]

Oh I definitely do not portray to my children that relationships and people should be pollyanna perfect, but I'll disagree with you that constant yelling (nightly) and cursing at each other is normal. My husband and I argue, certainly, and the children have heard us argue - but we do not call names, we do not berate each other, we do not throw things, and they see us make up as well; they do not fear that any little thing will set one of us off on each other, or on them. Even without the mental illness aspect, I disagree that that this kind of relationship is normal or healthy for children.

 

I definitely appreciate that my father is still with my stepmother. As much as it sounds like I loathe my stepmother, I sincerely do not. I love her. I simply gave up long ago on having anything resembling a healthy relationship with her - I do not think she is capable of having one, and I was tired of being miserable, and my own family being miserable, because of it. With that said, I feel badly for my father too. In the process of sticking up for his wife, no matter what she's done wrong, and not acknowledging that she's done wrong, and trying to force his hand (as much as possible) for her to MAINTAIN treatment, he has essentially ostracized HIMSELF from much of his family - and where is that going to leave him if she is ever gone? I say this gently, but believing it with all my heart - there is a difference between staying with someone because you love them, and are being strong with them, and staying with them ENABLING their behaviour (the "behaviour" in this case, being the ability to simply leave treatment the minute she disagrees with a mental health expert) and blaming everyone else for your wife's problems (which is how he's managed to ostracize so much of his family).

People disagree. Sometimes, they disagree loudly. That doesn't mean that they don't love each other. I see harm in pretending relationships are Polyanna perfect and people never raise their voices, never curse, and never say things in anger that they don't mean.

That said I don't know the background here and mental illness is a whole different animal. If for any reason you feel that this is a dangerous environment, then you owe no explanation. I agree with the previous poster who said not to mention your dd or her feelings. Just keep it short and direct, "Thank you for the offer. Dd can't come visit, but we would love to have you come here without step-mom." Based on what you have said, it sounds like he will understand why even if he doesn't agree. If he tries to talk you into allowing her to come visit, tell him you love him very much. Then, repeat that you really look forward to planning a visit with him, but that dd is not going there.

If nothing is going to change, then there is no point in discussing step-mother's mental illness. She can't help being mentally ill. He obviously isn't going to leave her. Nothing to discuss. It isn't a place you want your dd. Again, "I love you, Dad. Dd is not coming there. We would really like for you to come up."

Bummer of a situation, but kuddos to your dad for taking care of a wife with mental illness for all these years. That's got to be rough. If I were mentally ill, I hope I would be lucky enough to have someone responsible, strong, and caring enough to love me enough to not leave me on the street, in a shelter, or (best case scenario) in a group home (unless, of course, it was absolutely necessary). I know that isn't helpful to you or your dd. Mental illness is really hard on families.
Mandy