S/O: When your spouse is no longer part of your faith

[Dynamite5]

I don't expect a spouse to share my religion, only my manners about religion.

 

This.

[Murphy101]

I think some of this is marriage dynamics too. The concept of "keeping their religion to themselves" is rather alien to me bc marriage equals two people becoming one. We do not general view keeping things to ourselves as good for a marriage. We don't keep our money to ourselves. We don't keep our hobbies to ourselves. We don't keep our friends to ourselves. We don't keep much of anything to ourselves. I can't think of anything. And those things are all so much more trivial than our religion and faith beliefs. To keep something so basic to who we are and how we live our lives to ourselves seems near impossible to me if that person is to ever actually be permitted to genuinely live the beliefs they have formed. It would be like falling in love with someone else and your spouse being okay with it as long as you don't make them uncomfortably aware of it. Sure, there's marriages like that, but I wouldn't want to be in one of them.

 

I know many marriages are not at all like that and seem happy enough to them. But that's not the case for us, so having this boulder sized thing I should keep to myself and out if his way is indeed exhausting and frustrating and generally sad feeling.

[Murphy101]

The bolded is a common misperception of losing faith.

 

In many (most? all?) cases, it is not a choice. You have experiences, you grow and change, and one day you simply can't see the world the same way you did before.

 

Now, you can choose to be honest about that change or lie about it. And certainly you can choose how many of your behaviors you change because of your change in belief.

 

But the actual belief or lack of it? Not a choice. At least, not here. And not with those I've met on my faith journey.

 

I do understand why a spouse's change in belief can be shocking.

For clarity sake. She didn't comment on losing faith. She referred to rejecting God. They are not necessarily the same thing.

[maize]

The bolded is a common misperception of losing faith.

 

In many (most? all?) cases, it is not a choice. You have experiences, you grow and change, and one day you simply can't see the world the same way you did before.

 

Now, you can choose to be honest about that change or lie about it. And certainly you can choose how many of your behaviors you change because of your change in belief.

 

But the actual belief or lack of it? Not a choice. At least, not here. And not with those I've met on my faith journey.

 

I do understand why a spouse's change in belief can be shocking.

A difference in perspective perhaps. To me faith is not a passive experience that can passively change, it is an active choice every day. Therefore a rejection of faith would also be a conscious choice.

[Crimson Wife]

Another thought for those who don't see how this would be a big deal: in my church, it is common to speak of a marriage involving three people: the husband, the wife, and God. If one person chooses to reject God, they are in a real sense changing the terms of the marriage itself. How could that not be a shock?

 

For me, there would be a big difference between doubting God and the Christian faith (which I could deal with) and deciding to worship a completely different deity or deities.

[Melinda in VT]

A difference in perspective perhaps. To me faith is not a passive experience that can passively change, it is an active choice every day. Therefore a rejection of faith would also be a conscious choice.

 

It sounds like you have had a smooth faith journey that has followed the path you expected.

 

People can be actively involved in faith and still have their beliefs change.

 

I think that the health of a marriage after one spouse has a change of faith is largely dependent on the other spouse's acceptance of that fact.

[Sarah CB]

I don't think it has to make a major difference unless the family has led a particularly religious life.

 

There are many families where one spouse attends church and the other doesn't, and it's not a problem at all. Many people don't think twice about dating or marrying someone outside their faith, either.

 

BUT... I think it's different in families where their religion is a major part of their daily lives, and when one spouse leaves the faith, it has a tangible impact on many facets of their lives, and that's what appears to be the case in the other thread.

 

Personally, it's hard for me to imagine feeling any differently about my dh if he suddenly changed his personal beliefs, because in my mind he would still be the exact same man he was the day before he told me about it, but our lives don't revolve around any church and we don't do things like pray together, so I don't think my feelings apply to situations like the one in Hoppy's thread. I can't imagine having trouble accepting it if my dh changed his beliefs. I would just be glad he was honest with me about it.

 

But again, I can't personally relate to Hoppy's situation, so I won't criticize her for feeling the way she does.

 

FWIW, I don't know anyone in my real life who is as religious as many of the people on this forum. I honestly had no clue that anyone's lives revolved around their religions to the extent that I have read here. It's totally foreign to me.

 

But what if your dh became deeply religious in a way that impacted all facets of his life?  What if his life began to revolve around his newfound beliefs?  He began praying throughout the day, reading scripture and praying as part of his decision making process, going to a place of worship, meeting regularly with other believers, maybe even changing his clothes or hair to align with his new beliefs - might that be at least disconcerting to you?

[Onceuponatime]

A difference in perspective perhaps. To me faith is not a passive experience that can passively change, it is an active choice every day. Therefore a rejection of faith would also be a conscious choice.

 

I used to feel that way. I don't believe I consciously choose to reject faith. I've tried hard to justify faith, but no longer can. It just isn't there. For me, everything that once pointed toward faith, now points away from it.  I don't know how to choose something that seems quite impossible. Ironically, I got to this point by trying to study hard and strengthen my faith.

[Lady Florida.]

A difference in perspective perhaps. To me faith is not a passive experience that can passively change, it is an active choice every day. Therefore a rejection of faith would also be a conscious choice.

 

An active choice to do what? For me it would have to be an active choice to pretend, to fake it. I can no more have faith that there are any deities than I can have faith that ancient aliens made the pyramids. It's just not there for me and no amount of "choosing faith" will change that. Believe me when I say I tried.

 

I used to feel that way. I don't believe I consciously choose to reject faith. I've tried hard to justify faith, but no longer can. It just isn't there. For me, everything that once pointed toward faith, now points away from it.  I don't know how to choose something that seems quite impossible. Ironically, I got to this point by trying to study hard and strengthen my faith.

 

Yes to everything, and especially the bolded. 

[maize]

I used to feel that way. I don't believe I consciously choose to reject faith. I've tried hard to justify faith, but no longer can. It just isn't there. For me, everything that once pointed toward faith, now points away from it. I don't know how to choose something that seems quite impossible. Ironically, I got to this point by trying to study hard and strengthen my faith.

I can acknowledge different experiences.

 

I still think rejection is not an inappropriate term to use of someone turning away from a particular belief. At some point a choice is made to leave a church/belief system behind, to consciously turn away and not make it a daily force in your life. The analogy of a couple drifting apart in marriage may be relevant; a person may experience a sense of growing incompatibility, of disillusionment, of loss of closeness, but for the couple to actually separate or divorce a decision has to be made--at least one person has to consciously reject the marriage. They may feel that the decision was unavoidable and driven by factors beyond their control, but they still have to make a choice.

[Harriet Vane]

I have not read most of this thread, but will do so.

 

The question really is whether or not a person is practicing their religion as a cultural lifestyle or cultural set of rituals, or as an expression of philosophy, or as a dynamic, intimate, personal relationship with God, or all of the above.

 

Those for whom religious practice is an outpouring of an intimate relationship with God will feel that not being in that type of intimate relationship means being separate from God. For such a person, being separate from God is like not having oxygen to breathe.

 

Any of us can practice religion for any combination of cultural, philosophical, or relationship reasons. The more layers that are present for that person, the more devastating would be the loss of faith (whether in oneself or in someone who is loved by oneself). Conversely, the less layers, the less attachment to that faith practice.

 

I think it's important, too, to differentiate between choosing to follow a different-but-similar denominational path versus choosing to follow an entirely different philosophy. It is not as difficult for a Catholic to marry a Protestant as it is for a Catholic to marry a Muslim. Where there is agreement on the core of belief, there can be room for compromise on the specific cultural expression of faith. (Although there are some who have a strong preference to associate with those who practice only a specific cultural expression, like the Amish for example.)

[Valley Girl]

It sounds like you have had a smooth faith journey that has followed the path you expected.

 

People can be actively involved in faith and still have their beliefs change.

 

I think that the health of a marriage after one spouse has a change of faith is largely dependent on the other spouse's acceptance of that fact.

 

That's certainly one very important factor. People need to feel safe and loved when sharing such a major change with the person to whom they're married. But I would say an equal factor affecting marital health is how the spouse who is doing the changing handles the situation.

 

Is it with sensitivity/respect/support for the other spouse's continued belief and practice? How does that person handle promises that may have been made with regard to the religious upbringing of children, especially where disagreement on that issue would have been a deal-breaker with regard to the marriage itself? Does the person insist everyone else in the home suddenly adopt the new belief system? Respect and sensitivity need to flow in both directions.

[Catwoman]

Well, I believe that a believer shouldn't be yoked to an unbeliever. So, before I went out on the blind date with my husband I learned some things about him: Phi Beta Kappa, VERY involved in BSU stuff and medical mission stuff, and absolutely gorgeous. We talked about how we felt about Christ on our first date. It was VERY important to me... I cannot imagine what would happen if he for some reason decided he no longer believed... It would be very, very hard.

"Yoked?" :glare:

 

Seriously???

 

There are plenty of "believers" out there whose entire existence doesn't revolve around their religion, and those people are perfectly capable of marrying people with different beliefs, whether it's a different religion or atheism.

 

In your case, I agree that you couldn't do it. But not everyone is as intensely religious as you are, and it's not an all-encompassing part of their daily lives, so they are able to accept and embrace a partner who has different beliefs.

 

I do think it's important to discuss things like religion with a prospective partner if the relationship gets serious, but for many of us, the individual's personality and general character matter a lot more than whether or not he goes to the same church we do. (Obviously, personality and character should matter to everyone, but I just mean that for me, those things matter more than a person's religion, while all three things are probably crucial to you.)

 

But again, if you're super-religious, you should definitely let others know about it right away, because it could be a deal breaker for them, just as their lack of total dedication to their church would be a deal breaker for you.

[Catwoman]

I never heard of this either, as a cradle Catholic. Catholicism and how it's practiced in the home appears to have changed dramatically since I left the Church 20 years ago. As for grace, when we did say it (which was usually just on holidays and extended family gatherings) we said a specific prayer. It wasn't like in other Christian denominations where you say different words of grace every time. I can still rattle it off from memory even though I haven't said it in more than 20 years-

 

"Bless us o Lord and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our lord amen" ...said all in one breath.

 

 

As for the OP, I can only assume that if the marriage is based strongly on religion that's where the problem would lie. Also if one party thinks the non-believing party is going to a different place in the afterlife I guess it would be pretty upsetting.

 

If my husband suddenly found god, I'd feel blindsided but as long as he left me out of it I could handle it. Still, it would most likely change our relationship.

We said the same exact grace, too -- usually on Thanksgiving or Christmas -- all in one breath, too! :D Eventually, we just gave up on the whole thing.

 

I have to say that I know a lot of practicing Catholics, and they're not any different than my family was when we were kids (which sounds a lot like your family, too.) It's almost as though the Internet has bred some sort of Super Catholic. I don't know anyone in real life who is as religious as the people I meet online -- whether Catholic or any other religion. Heck, even some of the atheists get preachy about atheism, and nobody I know in real life does that, either!

 

Sometimes it's a little disconcerting.

[Harriet Vane]

"Yoked?" :glare:

 

Seriously???

 

 

 

The term "yoked" is simply another way to say "life partners." There is nothing offensive about the term. It was an analogy penned by Paul to show that it can be difficult to be life partners with someone with whom you are not in agreement on the most fundamental issue of belief in God. The idea is that the two of you will pull in different directions (in other words, have different goals).

[Catwoman]

But what if your dh became deeply religious in a way that impacted all facets of his life? What if his life began to revolve around his newfound beliefs? He began praying throughout the day, reading scripture and praying as part of his decision making process, going to a place of worship, meeting regularly with other believers, maybe even changing his clothes or hair to align with his new beliefs - might that be at least disconcerting to you?

I am so glad you brought that up, Sarah. :)

 

The kind of person you described is so incredibly foreign to me that it didn't even occur to me that my dh could ever change to that degree, so I hadn't even considered that when I posted.

 

I know this is going to sound horrible to some people, but please take it in the spirit in which it's intended... If my dh suddenly converted to a new religion and became completely immersed in it to the point you describe, I would think he had gone insane and that he was having a complete mental and emotional breakdown -- not because I have any issue with other people living that way if it's what makes them happy, but because it would be such a complete turnaround for my dh. If it turned out to be something he'd thought through rationally and over time, and he decided he absolutely needed to make that kind of life change, I would wish him well, but it would be a complete deal breaker for me and for our marriage.

 

I couldn't live like that, any more than an ultra-religious person would be able to live with me.

 

I have a lot of respect for people who live and breathe their beliefs, but if I tried to live that way, I would be a complete fraud. I have my own beliefs, but I don't wear them on my sleeve or talk to others about them, and that works for me. I'm sure many of the people here would say I'm not religious enough, but I would suggest that it's not for them to judge me, any more than it is for me to judge them.

 

I'm very fortunate that my dh and I are on the same page. I feel so sad for Hoppy (in the other thread,) because her dh blindsided her, instead of discussing his feelings over time, so she would have some understanding of what he was going through. He knows how religious she is, so I think it was very unfair of him to spring his news on her the way he did. :(

[Catwoman]

YES!!! You get it... If my husband professed interest in witchcraft that would be to me the exact scenario you described....... I would think he had a mental illness. I don't see how a marriage could survive either one of those scenarios...

I think that's perfectly reasonable. Some changes can be fine, but when it's a complete life change, it's a whole different ball game.

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you about the "yoked" thing in my other post. :blush:

[Catwoman]

The term "yoked" is simply another way to say "life partners." There is nothing offensive about the term. It was an analogy penned by Paul to show that it can be difficult to be life partners with someone with whom you are not in agreement on the most fundamental issue of belief in God. The idea is that the two of you will pull in different directions (in other words, have different goals).

Thanks -- I was thinking of it in a different context. Thanks for clearing it up! :)

[Catwoman]

:seeya:No problem at all!!! I could easily be friends with you!! But I could not marry someone whose beliefs were like yours. I'm sure it is likewise!!!

Yes, I absolutely agree! :)

[unsinkable]

Thanks -- I was thinking of it in a different context. Thanks for clearing it up! :)

Like the context of needing a 'safe word'?

[ThisIsTheDay]

. . .

 

 

Martha, my heart aches for you as I read your post.  :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

My husband and I were not anything when we met and married.  We married in a church, because it was a safer bet weather-wise than being married outside.  I think it was a UU church.  We were quite vocal that we wanted nothing to do with God, if he even existed.

 

We became Christians several years into our marriage.  I doubt our marriage would have survived if just one of us were saved.

 

We've been married long enough now that I don't think we'd split up over one of us losing our faith (the one who changed would have to initiate the leaving).  But our lives would become very separate, and I can't see that we would have much of a marriage.  It would be devastating, absolutely crushing.

 

It still surprises me to read here that people would call me "religious," because I don't see myself that way at all.  I get a picture of a nun in my head, lol.

[Murphy101]

We said the same exact grace, too -- usually on Thanksgiving or Christmas -- all in one breath, too! :D Eventually, we just gave up on the whole thing.

I have to say that I know a lot of practicing Catholics, and they're not any different than my family was when we were kids (which sounds a lot like your family, too.) It's almost as though the Internet has bred some sort of Super Catholic. I don't know anyone in real life who is as religious as the people I meet online -- whether Catholic or any other religion. Heck, even some of the atheists get preachy about atheism, and nobody I know in real life does that, either!

Sometimes it's a little disconcerting.

So now, to me that's not even really religious. It's... Idk what. You really think people who pray and go to church regularly and are active in their church are some kind of super catholic? Entire parishes are full of people who do just that and they are just ordinary people. Heck, some of them aren't even practicing Catholics even. They are just people going through the motions of faith or learning about it while attending RCIA.

 

I think many people TALK more about their opinions, beliefs and life online than in person. But I don't think that is necessarily a reflection of anything more than good manners IRL. I mean in real life? I almost never mention my dh isn't Christian because it never comes up. Even at church. "Where's your dh?" "He didn't come today." "Oh okay." Only someone who already truly knows me will find a hint of more an that bc IRL it's my experience that people don't put much effort into really getting to know other people. They certainly don't have religious and political discussions of any real depth.

 

So on the outside, to my neighbors say, I might look just like any other family. To my BFF, to those who care, they know a lot more. And sadly, to me anyways, many families are like this too. My dh's family? I don't think they know anything much about me. They couldn't tell you what church I attend or my thoughts on anything beyond the weather. We could spend hours with them for a holiday and the conversation would never get deeper than, "It sure is a nice day for a BBQ. This sure is good BBQ. And how's that new golf club swing?" Based on that, one would think none of us have any strong opinions or beliefs.

 

I think you are nice enough. I wouldn't marry you, bc you know, you're a chick and all, which I'm religiously opposed to, but I'd enjoy a cup of coffee with you. I'd even try to dress up some for it. ;)

 

Also, there's some truth to the birds of a feather theory. I would hazard you don't know any people more ..devout?... Because that's just not who you gravitate towards.

 

And last rambling thought... I have a deep dislike of what I call Competitive Catholicism or her twin sister, Cannibal Catholic ( you know the catholic who just can't feel complete until they have squished your soul). I do think, or hope at least, that there is a cozy middle ground between them and only praying on holidays. :)

[Murphy101]

I understand how it could be a shock, I just can't feel it. And from the outside, it seems a pretty incomprehensible way to live.

~

No longer addressing maize in particular...

 

That isn't something I'd say in the other thread - but this is an open thread, and both the religious and non-religious have every right to state their views on the matter. Treating a

loved one who has changed their faith perspective as a completely different person seems to me to be inviting pain into your life and that of your spouse. OK, fair enough, the marriage isn't the same, but the person is.

 

If they were loving before, they'll be loving after. If they were ethical before, they'll be ethical later.

 

Beyond the eternity aspect, which, yes, I don't understand, and the impact on day to day prayer/church attendance etc, what I'm hearing in this thread is that the non-Christian is substantially not the same person they were before. I totally reject that.

I don't. I totally reject that they stay the same. I've seen too often that they usually aren't. Many of them do change their ethics and how they love others. Obviously they view it as okay, they might even view it as more ethical and loving, but that doesn't mean their spouse shares that new view.

[unsinkable]

OK...my DH decides he's not Catholic any more. He is now fine with using condoms or getting a vasectomy.

 

That changes him and our relationship in a fundamental way.

[Catwoman]

So now, to me that's not even really religious. It's... Idk what. You really think people who pray and go to church regularly and are active in their church are some kind of super catholic? Entire parishes are full of people who do just that and they are just ordinary people. Heck, some of them aren't even practicing Catholics even. They are just people going through the motions of faith or learning about it while attending RCIA.

 

I think many people TALK more about their opinions, beliefs and life online than in person. But I don't think that is necessarily a reflection of anything more than good manners IRL. I mean in real life? I almost never mention my dh isn't Christian because it never comes up. Even at church. "Where's your dh?" "He didn't come today." "Oh okay." Only someone who already truly knows me will find a hint of more an that bc IRL it's my experience that people don't put much effort into really getting to know other people. They certainly don't have religious and political discussions of any real depth.

 

So on the outside, to my neighbors say, I might look just like any other family. To my BFF, to those who care, they know a lot more. And sadly, to me anyways, many families are like this too. My dh's family? I don't think they know anything much about me. They couldn't tell you what church I attend or my thoughts on anything beyond the weather. We could spend hours with them for a holiday and the conversation would never get deeper than, "It sure is a nice day for a BBQ. This sure is good BBQ. And how's that new golf club swing?" Based on that, one would think none of us have any strong opinions or beliefs.

 

I think you are nice enough. I wouldn't marry you, bc you know, you're a chick and all, which I'm religiously opposed to, but I'd enjoy a cup of coffee with you. I'd even try to dress up some for it. ;)

 

Also, there's some truth to the birds of a feather theory. I would hazard you don't know any people more ..devout?... Because that's just not who you gravitate towards.

 

And last rambling thought... I have a deep dislike of what I call Competitive Catholicism or her twin sister, Cannibal Catholic ( you know the catholic who just can't feel complete until they have squished your soul). I do think, or hope at least, that there is a cozy middle ground between them and only praying on holidays. :)

Actually, most of the Catholics I know do go to church on Sunday (and I'm sure they probably say their prayers every night or whenever,) and several of the families I know are pretty active in church activities. But they don't go to church every day and they don't talk about how they pray all the time, and their entire lives don't revolve around church activities.

 

I like your Competitive Catholic and Cannibal Catholic descriptions -- those are the kind of people I meant when I said "Super Catholics." It's like they're in competition over who is the most devout and who prays the most and who goes to church more often. I don't see people like that in my everyday life. The people I know may consider themselves to be religious, but they aren't praying over what to make for lunch every day, or if they are, thankfully they're keeping it to themselves. ;)

 

Basically, I think the biggest thing is that, with very few exceptions, most of the people I know don't talk about their religion as part of everyday conversation. If I go out to lunch with friends, nobody mentions their church or talks about praying. If someone new joins us, no one would even think to ask her if she went to church. It's not that they don't go to church and they don't pray, but that it's a private thing for them. It's so different online, where people seem to spend a lot more time talking about religious topics, and it does seem like some folks get awfully competitive about it.

 

 

PS. I'd enjoy having a cup of coffee with you, too, no matter what you were wearing! :)

[speedmom4]

I find this whole topic fascinating. It would be very very difficult for me if my spouse didn't share my faith. We did go through a short period when I left the Protestant church and returned to Catholicism that we were on different pages religiously. Even though my husband was supportive there was still tension. Thankfully he began to see things my way  :tongue_smilie: and is now a Catholic as well. I think it would be difficult no matter what the major shift in ideology was. Leaving religion or becoming religious wouldn't necessarily matter. It's the fundamental change that would be hard. 

 

Elise in NC

[Crimson Wife]

I understand how it could be a shock, I just can't feel it. And from the outside, it seems a pretty incomprehensible way to live.

~

No longer addressing maize in particular...

 

That isn't something I'd say in the other thread - but this is an open thread, and both the religious and non-religious have every right to state their views on the matter. Treating a

loved one who has changed their faith perspective as a completely different person seems to me to be inviting pain into your life and that of your spouse.  OK, fair enough, the marriage isn't the same, but the person is.

 

If they were loving before, they'll be loving after. If they were ethical before, they'll be ethical later.

 

Beyond the eternity aspect, which, yes, I don't understand, and the impact on day to day prayer/church attendance etc, what I'm hearing in this thread is that the non-Christian is substantially not the same person they were before. I totally reject that.

 

If your spouse suddenly underwent a political conversion and became some diehard political conservative, wouldn't you say that would result in a completely different person from the one you're married to now? If a political change-of-heart would result in becoming a substantially different person, why is it so difficult for you to see a religious conversion as the same kind of total life change?

[Anne in CA]

I read this thread on my kindle while I was out this morning and could not participate. I have had my dh come home from college and say he no longer believed in God. He was taking a lot of science courses to become a cs engineer and there was a lot of prejudice against Christianity in those classes and he came to feel that Christianity was not for thinking people. He was very unhappy with my "ignorance". I was unhappy that he considered me ignorant. We (I) compromised by my not going to church for a long time. Then my oldest decided she really wanted to go to church. I found a close one that we could get to in less than five minutes. I began to take part in the church and the teachings at that church really changed my life for the better. DH got upset. Now he was done with college and working in the tech industry with lots of people who looked down on Christianity. I refused to let go of truths in my life so that he could feel married to someone more sophisticated. Things got ugly because he became very unhappy when I allowed my oldest to take part in a drama at church and we went all the time for practices. I thought we would get divorced. He was no longer speaking to me, and when he did he was very disdainful.

 

He had a spiritual experience that led him to accept Christ and he has had an evolving walk with God since then. We had a lot of trouble over the years he did not want me to go to church. 

 

I could add a lot to this story, but the bottom line is that it is hard to be married to one person and have them change, and yet change is inevitable. I would rather have the pain I went through at that time than be married to someone who was not capable of changing.

[Murphy101]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree Martha.I think that perspective in many is coloured by an already present bias against the non-religious.

 

Having been through the process of deconverting, I can assure you I am the same person, minus the cognitive and emotional struggle to reconcile belief with suffering.

 

Unless you think I'm also one of the deluded faithless, you'll have to take my word for it :)

Wow. That was a very biased and presumptive opinion of me. One, I'm not biased against the non-religious. I sleep with one every night and have made 10 beautiful children with him. I also don't think the faithless are necessarily deluded. The question is not whether you think you have changed. The question is whether your spouse thinks you have changed significantly. And maybe you haven't. All I said is I have seen many times were the spouse did significantly change their morals and their love and yes, that sure has caused me to strongly think differently about it.

[felicity]

Your dh should be the one explaining what he believes or doesn't believe, and why. He is just as responsible for raising the kids as you are.

 

Yes he is, and yes he does. It was an example of difficult questions that come up, not saying how I actually answer them. However, since you brought it up, he answers the questions he gets, I answer the ones I get. And since we do talk about why he no longer believes, I feel like I'm pretty qualified to answer those questions in much the same way he would and without judgement. Like you said, we are raising the kids. I have no incentive to make them think poorly of their father just the same as he has no reason to make them think poorly of me. We are a family. We have come to terms with what's going on in our family and we're pretty darn happy overall. 

[Murphy101]

Actually, most of the Catholics I know do go to church on Sunday (and I'm sure they probably say their prayers every night or whenever,) and several of the families I know are pretty active in church activities. But they don't go to church every day and they don't talk about how they pray all the time, and their entire lives don't revolve around church activities.

 

Basically, I think the biggest thing is that, with very few exceptions, most of the people I know don't talk about their religion as part of everyday conversation. If I go out to lunch with friends, nobody mentions their church or talks about praying. If someone new joins us, no one would even think to ask her if she went to church. It's not that they don't go to church and they don't pray, but that it's a private thing for them.

Hmmm. Have you considered they just don't talk to YOU about it? I think, among close friends, people would be inclined to talk about what is important to them and or what they think is common ground with the people they are with. So if I spoke to my BFF and she never mentioned her church, a place she spend several days a week, I'd think that was a bit odd. Not because I expect her to be uber religious, but because that's a significant part of her life. Likewise, I don't consider myself uber religious, but I do happen to go to mass regularly, say the rosary, and what all else. So if I omitted any mention if that from my conversation, that's a large portion of my life to not share with people who claim to care about me. My marriage is private and sure I'm not gushing about every detail, but it would be very odd if I rarely or never mentioned my dh or dc.

 

I guess the question for me is what does their life revolve around and is it accurate to think it is what they talk most about? And how do you know they go to mass on Sundays and are active in their parish if they aren't talking about it?

 

My life absolutely and unapologetically revolves around my dh, dc, and the RCC, my close friends, and a few other things. If I were to only discuss shoe shopping with you because I know you are into shopping, does that mean my life revolves around shopping? Of course not.

 

And if it did... is that really a positive statement about my beliefs and life?

 

Not picking on you... Really. Just thinking through this concept that one can upturn their entire belief system and not be particularly affected by it or have it effect their marital relationship. :)

[Crimson Wife]

There's a lot of jumping to the most extreme outcome of someone losing/changing a faith. It would be akin to me thinking that just because dh became a Republican, he's be out picketing abortion clinics and shooting gays.

 

That's just plain uncalled for. I know a LOT of Republicans and other conservatives and not a single one is in favor of violence towards anyone regardless of s*xual orientation.

[Lavandula]

That's just plain uncalled for. I know a LOT of Republicans and other conservatives and not a single one is in favor of violence towards anyone regardless of s*xual orientation.

I believe her point was that would be an extreme and not fair to assume. 

[maize]

I understand how it could be a shock, I just can't feel it. And from the outside, it seems a pretty incomprehensible way to live.

~

No longer addressing maize in particular...

 

That isn't something I'd say in the other thread - but this is an open thread, and both the religious and non-religious have every right to state their views on the matter. Treating a

loved one who has changed their faith perspective as a completely different person seems to me to be inviting pain into your life and that of your spouse. OK, fair enough, the marriage isn't the same, but the person is.

 

If they were loving before, they'll be loving after. If they were ethical before, they'll be ethical later.

 

Beyond the eternity aspect, which, yes, I don't understand, and the impact on day to day prayer/church attendance etc, what I'm hearing in this thread is that the non-Christian is substantially not the same person they were before. I totally reject that.

 

I would not say the spouse who leaves the faith is not the same person, but I would say if I or my husband left the faith we would not have the same marriage. Religious beliefs are so deeply interwoven in our marriage and family life that to excise shared belief from the marriage would be to remove a significant portion of the foundation of that marriage. For the marriage: the marriage as it currently exists would come crumbling down, and if we succeeded (as we would hopefully try to do) in building something new in its place it would be a significantly different structure.

[NorthwestMom]

I never heard of this either, as a cradle Catholic. Catholicism and how it's practiced in the home appears to have changed dramatically since I left the Church 20 years ago. As for grace, when we did say it (which was usually just on holidays and extended family gatherings) we said a specific prayer. It wasn't like in other Christian denominations where you say different words of grace every time. I can still rattle it off from memory even though I haven't said it in more than 20 years-

 

"Bless us o Lord and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our lord amen" ...said all in one breath.

 

 

As for the OP, I can only assume that if the marriage is based strongly on religion that's where the problem would lie. Also if one party thinks the non-believing party is going to a different place in the afterlife I guess it would be pretty upsetting.

 

If my husband suddenly found god, I'd feel blindsided but as long as he left me out of it I could handle it. Still, it would most likely change our relationship.

 

I am also a cradle Catholic. Our family was so chill about prayers and grace.  My uncle was a priest - the awesome kind :) - and when people asked him to say grace at meals, he would say, "Grace!" with great enthusiasm in his booming voice, laugh, and then compliment the food as he dug in. I miss him, he passed away in 2006. :(

[Cricket]

If it was a personal choice that he didn't try to impose on others, it would be fine. He's allowed to vote for who he wants.

 

There's a lot of jumping to the most extreme outcome of someone losing/changing a faith. It would be akin to me thinking that just because dh became a Republican, he's be out picketing abortion clinics and shooting gays.

 

Someone losing their faith does not automatically lose any moral or ethical sense.

I think you are being unfair to those who think a spouse would change because of losing faith. No one, as far as I know, has said that the "deconverted" spouse would become a reprobate, just different. It is reasonable that the moral decisions based on matters of faith will change if that faith is no longer there. But even then, I don't know that most people are necessarily talking about a moral change taking place.

[ktgrok]

Also, I don't see as analogous losing a faith with gaining a faith. LOL. Even though that's the thought experiment I conducted myself

 

Having no religious faith is not a belief. There's nothing to impose on anyone else. Gaining a faith, if one is not content to keep it between oneself and God, does impose behaviours and expectations on others.

 

 

But they would still be changing behaviors. They would no longer join in prayer. They would no longer take communion. They would no longer look to the same source for wisdom. And, the thing that probably tears most marriages apart, when it comes to religion, they may no longer be ok with raising the children the same way. So all of a sudden the religious formation of the children is now up for debate, rather than being a settled matter. If the religious spouse sees it as their moral duty to raise the children in the faith, and the now non religious spouse won't accept that...that's a HUGE problem. 

 

And in my experience, most people with no faith are not silent about that when coming up against faith on a regular basis. If I'm practicing my religion, and have something wonderful happen to me in a spiritual sense, I may no longer be able to share that openly without risking ridicule. At best, there would be a lack of understanding. 

[unsinkable]

I assume if your dh before deconversion was someone who was loving and kind and prepared to put the relationship front and centre, after deconversion he will continue to do the same and not rush out and get a vasectomy as some sort of non-Catholic celebration.

 

You all overstate the moral change you expect to see in a spouse who deconverts.

I wrote, "He is now fine with using condoms or getting a vasectomy."

 

You jumped to some huge erroneous conclusions. Just the very idea that he'd think those things are fine changes things. He doesn't have to DO anything.

 

"You all" statements are rarely conducive to an open dialogue.

[felicity]

I understand how it could be a shock, I just can't feel it. And from the outside, it seems a pretty incomprehensible way to live.

~

No longer addressing maize in particular...

 

That isn't something I'd say in the other thread - but this is an open thread, and both the religious and non-religious have every right to state their views on the matter. Treating a

loved one who has changed their faith perspective as a completely different person seems to me to be inviting pain into your life and that of your spouse.  OK, fair enough, the marriage isn't the same, but the person is.

 

If they were loving before, they'll be loving after. If they were ethical before, they'll be ethical later.

 

Beyond the eternity aspect, which, yes, I don't understand, and the impact on day to day prayer/church attendance etc, what I'm hearing in this thread is that the non-Christian is substantially not the same person they were before. I totally reject that.

 

I see what you are saying and in some ways I agree. My dh was ethical, kind, and loving when he attended church and still is as an atheist. So that's the same, but the reasons are sometimes different. (Not better, not worse, just different.) Before his faith transformation he didn't drink--we were Mormon and Mormons don't drink alcohol for religious reasons. Now he doesn't drink but not because of a religion, but because he respects and loves me and knows that it would be hard for me if he did. 

 

There are a lot of other differences but a lot of them are personal and wouldn't illustrate the point any better. Also, we've been walking this path a long time, most of our marriage, so we've evolved and changed together. I'm not the exact same person he married either, it's just that my changes (career woman to SAHM, for example) were expected and in some ways celebrated. 

 

Our marriage has had to change. Our social circle has changed for one thing. If we used to hang out with primarily LDS people, that's changed. "Date nights" to the LDS Temple are out. Our discussions have changed. But they've changed, not ended. At this point I wouldn't say were stronger than we were before, but our marriage is stronger than we were last week. We make it a priority. And we've had practice. No one really knows how they'd react if something like this happens. At the beginning I was naive and self-righteous. I remember telling a friend that if he didn't come back, we'd have to get a divorce. I wish I could give that Felicity a little perspective and some compassion, along with a view into the future. I don't know, that's how it's worked here. I hope that helps explain something.

[unsinkable]

You're completely missing the point of what I said.

 

If you don't want to engage with the reality that there is an underlying premise to many of these posts, that he/she who loses her religion is fundamentally changed on a moral level, that's fine.

If you don't want to engage with the reality that you are projecting the premise that "religious" people think "non-religious" people are not moral, then you will continue to see things that aren't there, and deny that posters think things will change on a practical level ie, family planning.

[maize]

You're completely missing the point of what I said.

 

If you don't want to engage with the reality that there is an underlying premise to many of these posts, that he/she who loses her religion is fundamentally changed on a moral level, that's fine.

If you view religion itself as a moral issue--and I would argue that for deeply religious people it is often the most significant of moral issues--then yes they are fundamentally changed.

[felicity]

Serious question, asked non-snarkily, because you seem to be willing to engage calmly....and because I'm interested...

 

Are you saying that for a deeply religious person it's not possible to be moral without that religion, or that it would be a different or incomplete morality ?

 

Or that someone without a religion isn't moral in the same way someone with a religion is ?

 

See, I would see morals as transcending religion or non-religion.

 

Do you mind if I answer this how I've learned to see morality in the last few years?

[Catwoman]

Hmmm. Have you considered they just don't talk to YOU about it? I think, among close friends, people would be inclined to talk about what is important to them and or what they think is common ground with the people they are with. So if I spoke to my BFF and she never mentioned her church, a place she spend several days a week, I'd think that was a bit odd. Not because I expect her to be uber religious, but because that's a significant part of her life. Likewise, I don't consider myself uber religious, but I do happen to go to mass regularly, say the rosary, and what all else. So if I omitted any mention if that from my conversation, that's a large portion of my life to not share with people who claim to care about me. My marriage is private and sure I'm not gushing about every detail, but it would be very odd if I rarely or never mentioned my dh or dc.

I guess the question for me is what does their life revolve around and is it accurate to think it is what they talk most about? And how do you know they go to mass on Sundays and are active in their parish if they aren't talking about it?

My life absolutely and unapologetically revolves around my dh, dc, and the RCC, my close friends, and a few other things. If I were to only discuss shoe shopping with you because I know you are into shopping, does that mean my life revolves around shopping? Of course not.

And if it did... is that really a positive statement about my beliefs and life?

Not picking on you... Really. Just thinking through this concept that one can upturn their entire belief system and not be particularly affected by it or have it effect their marital relationship. :)

Maybe it's a regional thing or something, but where we live, it's extremely rare for anyone to discuss religion, even with friends. It just isn't something most people do. If you asked someone where they went to church, they would think it was nosy and intrusive. I know that sounds strange to many of the people on this forum, but it really is true.

 

The reason I know that certain families are Catholic is usually because I either see their kids in their school uniforms or athletic jackets with the school name on them, or because I grew up with them and saw them at church when we were kids. :)

[ktgrok]

Just because your partner lost his faith, wouldn't lead him to ridicule you. If he wasn't that kind of man before, he wouldn't be that kind of man after.

 

I agree that how to raise one's children could potentially be very difficult, although there's been at least one story here - Ishki's - that's shown how a non-believer is perfectly capable of respecting the pre-existing contract around the raising of children.

 

Losing your religion doesn't turn you into a selfish, aggressive, inflexible person.

 

 

I said he might ridicule, but at best there would be a lack of understanding. And honestly, sometimes my husband does laugh at things of faith, not out of malice, but because it just strikes him as absurd and it takes him a minute to realize I don't agree. People here at the WTM have compared believing in God to believing aliens have come down to earth and invaded the planet. That very comparison is hurtful, even though they don't mean to be. 

 

As for the raising of children, it becomes a very hard walk for most people. 

[maize]

Serious question, asked non-snarkily, because you seem to be willing to engage calmly....and because I'm interested...

 

Are you saying that for a deeply religious person it's not possible to be moral without that religion, or that it would be a different or incomplete morality ?

 

Or that someone without a religion isn't moral in the same way someone with a religion is ?

 

See, I would see morals as transcending religion or non-religion.

Morality revolves around questions of right and wrong, good and bad. If I believe that God is the source of righteousness and goodness, that God IS the truest good in the universe, then to reject God is in a sense to reject the Good.

[felicity]

Serious question, asked non-snarkily, because you seem to be willing to engage calmly....and because I'm interested...

 

Are you saying that for a deeply religious person it's not possible to be moral without that religion, or that it would be a different or incomplete morality ?

 

Or that someone without a religion isn't moral in the same way someone with a religion is ?

 

See, I would see morals as transcending religion or non-religion.

 

This is all me, fair warning. Please don't throw tomatoes.

 

Before my dh left the church I didn't think about morality in that sense. I knew some people are good and some are bad, but I figured that those in our church were the most moral and everyone else was kind of on a sliding scale. If they were moral and good it was basically despite the fact that they were xyz. I was never mean and never said anything to people about it, but it in me. I also didn't realize that I thought like this until my dh left the church and things were crashing down around me.

 

Once everything started though, my entire belief structure was up for grabs. I rebuilt it by picking and choosing the good and leaving the bad. That idea is one of the bad things I left behind. And because I did that, I was able to stay in love with my own husband and be more compassionate all around.

 

I hate that this is true, but it is.  It's probably not true about everyone in a church or everyone in my church. At least I hope it's not. Or maybe it is and no one else is willing to say so. (Honestly, I'm kind of hoping that's true.) Now I think I'll go back to writing things that paint me in a better light than this does. (I saved several puppies today and helped a dozen old ladies across the street and never once thought about their morality or ethics. ;-)  )

[Catwoman]

Morality revolves around questions of right and wrong, good and bad. If I believe that God is the source of righteousness and goodness, that God IS the truest good in the universe, then to reject God is in a sense to reject the Good.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm wondering if you believe that non-religious people can have strong values and morals.

[Anne in CA]

But they would still be changing behaviors. They would no longer join in prayer. They would no longer take communion. They would no longer look to the same source for wisdom. And, the thing that probably tears most marriages apart, when it comes to religion, they may no longer be ok with raising the children the same way. So all of a sudden the religious formation of the children is now up for debate, rather than being a settled matter. If the religious spouse sees it as their moral duty to raise the children in the faith, and the now non religious spouse won't accept that...that's a HUGE problem. 

 

And in my experience, most people with no faith are not silent about that when coming up against faith on a regular basis. If I'm practicing my religion, and have something wonderful happen to me in a spiritual sense, I may no longer be able to share that openly without risking ridicule. At best, there would be a lack of understanding. 

That is the heart of the matter. I don't know anyone with no faith who does not feel at least slightly superior, and I am from Portland, I have a LOT of atheist friends, and all of them feel a little more advanced than me. So, when someone goes from sharing something in common with you, to feeling superior to you, well, I didn't sign up for that when it happened to my husband, and that is what changed about him. The person I married did not feel superior to me. The person I married was grateful to be with me. The man who didn't believe in God for nine years felt smarter than me just because I put more faith in my personal experiences than his new thoughts. There was no telling that person any of the great things happening at church, or any revelation I had while reading my Bible without his being scornful. I did not marry a scornful person. I'm not stupid, I would never have married someone who felt better than me.

 

When my dh accepted Christ again he had a hard time losing the disdainful attitude he had developed. It took a couple of years and some marriage counseling for him to come to grips with the fact that I expected to be treated the way I had been when we married or I would leave. He made the adjustment and treats me VERY well now. It didn't happen over night though.

[NASDAQ]

You know, I know a lot of active liberal families. You know the type, the US version capital-D-democrat, would vote socialist if they could, always blowing up my facebook with Obama or anti-Harper or marriage equality or raise the minimum wage or whatever. Nice people. Big liberals.

 

If one of these people married a liberal (which they would) and raised their kids as liberal and marched in Pride and voted NDP and forwarded every pro-union meme they got, and then one day they came home, and their spouse told them, "Dear, I've realised something. Really, I am a conservative. In fact, I am very conservative. I want to send money to Rick Santorum. And all of these liberal things we've been doing -- marching in Pride, canvassing for the NDP -- I can't do those things anymore, because I think those things are wrong" I think many of my nice liberal friends would be upset. In fact, I think they would freak the heck out.

 

Now I'm conservative and my friends are friends with me, so I assume they don't think conservatives breathe fire. They may even think that I'm generally an okay person. But these liberal things they believe, they believe them deeply. They believe they are matters of morality and right and wrong and their self-conception as liberals in liberal families is very important to them.

 

In general, I think religion is more important to religious people than politics is to people who are politically active.

[maize]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm wondering if you believe that non-religious people can have strong values and morals.

My response was an attempt to philosophically explain how a religious person can view religious faith as a moral issue within their frame of reference.

 

In answer to your question, yes I believe a non religious person can be strongly moral within their own frame of reference.

 

If you are asking more specifically about my own religiously oriented views of morality, I believe God is the ultimate judge of human morality, I believe he inspires believers and non-believers alike to do good, and I believe ultimately he will judge us according to our actions based on the beliefs and knowledge we had in life--in other words, how morally we acted according to our personal frame of reference.