Opinion wanted: What do you think should be done to improve the quality of higher education?

[Michelle My Bell]

This question was recently posed to me. What is your answer?

 

What do you think should be done to improve the quality of higher education?

[umsami]

Improve the cost.  Look at the Scandinavian countries, Canada, Europe…nobody causes kids to go so much in debt to learn.  Improve options so it's not college or nothing.  Really let people find a great way to contribute.

[Garga]

Not require a degree for entry level jobs. Not require a degree to advance, when the person who has been working in the company can clearly handle the job, but the fact that they don't have a degree holds them back.

 

Bring back industry to America so there are more skilled factory worker jobs out there.

 

Why to all this? Because so many people are being funneled into college that really don't want to be there, but have no other option. Inevitably colleges will need to dumb down classes. Let these people get training in the jobs that they want to do, rather than forcing them into college classes that they don't want to take or may not be capable of taking.

[Dana]

Make a high school degree mean something. Stop just graduating students.

Make sure high school teachers know their subjects.

 

Support higher education.

Have community colleges that are affordable for students (this means more state support - I'm happy to have my taxes go to education). Have higher education schools that are affordable for students. Use the cc as a feeder and support for state universities and colleges.

 

It would also be nice to stop the textbook companies from releasing new editions without actual meaningful changes.

I'd also like to see sports at the college level done away with as a money maker.

[Jane in NC]

My son graduates from his LAC in a couple of weeks.  It has been a wonderful experience over the past four years. At the poster session of a professional conference that he attended last week, people with whom he discussed his research assumed that he was a graduate student.

 

Moral of the story: not every college is the right fit for every student.  Parents, counselors and students should not assume that the college with the familiar name or the closest proximity is the right college.  Everyone should be doing their research---students most of all. 

 

College is expensive.  I would like to see more state support for public universities and more government support for faculty research programs. 

 

I have a problem with college sports but apparently some alumni think sports are more important than academics.  Sigh...

 

[Rosie_0801]

Fail people. No one should be able to graduate from a teaching degree if they've failed their maths classes.

[Mrs Mungo]

Improve secondary education so that the first year of college isn't spent making up for deficiencies.

[MomtoCandJ]

Stop making students take unnecessary classes. Allow students to test out of classes, allow more credit by experience. I mean do you really need 6 years of schooling or more to be a pharmacist or a doctor, I could see if all the classes had a direct meaning to the training but it seems like at least 2 years could be knocked off if you didn't need at least 2 English composition classes, and umpteen "humanities" classes just to get into classes that pertain to your profession.

[Dana]

Fail people. No one should be able to graduate from a teaching degree if they've failed their maths classes.

 

I'm once again out of likes... but YES!!

 

Although I'd personally do away with the teaching degrees for middle school and high school. I want content experts, not education experts. I have a degree with half math classes & half education classes for my certification. I do hear that there are colleges of education that are okay - but I would be amazed if my 11 yo weren't able to pass ANY of the graduate level education courses I took.

[mysticmomma]

Reduce the heck out of the gen ed requirements. Allow students to take English comp if they want and to test out if they can.

[Rosie_0801]

Improve secondary education so that the first year of college isn't spent making up for deficiencies.

 

Yeah, this kind of boggles my mind. Here, if you need remedial classes to get into uni, you *don't get into uni.* You go do the remedial classes then reapply.

 

 

[hjffkj]

Stop making students take unnecessary classes. Allow students to test out of classes, allow more credit by experience. I mean do you really need 6 years of schooling or more to be a pharmacist or a doctor, I could see if all the classes had a direct meaning to the training but it seems like at least 2 years could be knocked off if you didn't need at least 2 English composition classes, and umpteen "humanities" classes just to get into classes that pertain to your profession.

This was my biggest problem with college.  I was an Animal Science major, Biology minor, Chemistry minor.  I could have triple majored and graduated in 4 years if not for the ridiculous amount of courses I was forced to take that had absolutely nothing to do with my major.  I was fine with taking the English comp classes but nothing else.

[dhudson]

Fix Elementary, Middle And High School. Make the lower grades actually worth the time and money spent on them.

[regentrude]

You could solve a lot of problems by offering different tracks in school, graduating non-college bound students after 10th grade with a regular diploma and moving them into vocational training or trade schools, and having a more rigorous education for the college bound students who will go through grade 12.

You could get rid of a lot of the general ed requirements if students completed this kind of coursework in high school (That's how my university education went - very rigorous high school, but then at uni pretty much only classes that pertained to the major directly.)

 

But with typically 25% of incoming freshmen at normal four year universities lacking the reading comprehension to do college level work (I don't even want to know how bad their writing abilities must be), requiring English at college is a sad necessity. And with many kids not getting a well rounded education in high school, college is making up for deficiencies from that.

Really, I can't believe some of the things that count as "college" classes. I have seen my students study maps of Europe and memorizing the names of the countries for some other class they were taking... something a 7th grader should have learned.

 

Sigh. Improving the quality of higher education must start with improving the quality of primary and secondary education. Compared to those, the post-secondary education works actually quite well in this country.

 

ETA: And yes, separate sports and education. Athletes who receive fake grades for phantom classes that did not exist just because they can play ball but can't read should not be given college degrees.

[ErinE]

I'd also like to see sports at the college level done away with as a money maker.

I would say the same for high school sports. I'd much rather sports be community-based; perhaps there would be less opportunity/pressure to pass star athletes.

[Mrs Mungo]

I would strongly disagree with erasing general ed requirements. Maybe we need job training programs that are different from college degrees? Degrees from universities should produce adults educated in a variety of subjects, IMO.

[Mrs Mungo]

You could solve a lot of problems by offering different tracks in school, graduating non-college bound students after 10th grade with a regular diploma and moving them into vocational training or trade schools, and having a more rigorous education for the college bound students who will go through grade 12.

You could get rid of a lot of the general ed requirements if students completed this kind of coursework in high school (That's how my university education went - very rigorous high school, but then at uni pretty much only classes that pertained to the major directly.)

 

But with typically 25% of incoming freshmen at normal four year universities lacking the reading comprehension to do college level work (I don't even want to know how bad their writing abilities must be), requiring English at college is a sad necessity. And with many kids not getting a well rounded education in high school, college is making up for deficiencies from that.

Really, I can't believe some of the things that count as "college" classes. I have seen my students study maps of Europe and memorizing the names of the countries for some other class they were taking... something a 7th grader should have learned.

 

Sigh. Improving the quality of higher education must start with improving the quality of primary and secondary education. Compared to those, the post-secondary education works actually quite well in this country.

 

ETA: And yes, separate sports and education. Athletes who receive fake grades for phantom classes that did not exist just because they can play ball but can't read should not be given college degrees.

I agree with this too.

[Rosie_0801]

I would strongly disagree with erasing general ed requirements. Maybe we need job training programs that are different from college degrees? Degrees from universities should produce adults educated in a variety of subjects, IMO.

 

What do the general ed classes provide that couldn't or shouldn't have been provided in high school? 

[Mrs Mungo]

What do the general ed classes provide that couldn't or shouldn't have been provided in high school?

I don't think most high schools deal in heavy philosophical questions, nor do I think they should. I think some books are better read and carefully studied in college with more serious scholars than you might find in every high school. Other things-English comp, basic history, languages, basic science, basic math, I agree that those should be covered mostly in high school, but they aren't, not well enough.

[Jen in NY]

My thoughts are more along the lines of cracking down on the drinking and drugging. I find it hard to believe there's nothing that can be done; a couple of well placed boots in the rear would set an example that would be heard around any campus. I heard a statistic today on the radio: 1/5 girls is sexually assaulted on a college campus... 80% of those incidents involved alcohol.

[Crimson Wife]

Stop pretending that college is for everyone, and stop requiring bachelor's degrees for jobs that don't actually require them. Most people probably should do some post-high school vocational training, but we don't live in Lake Woebegone where every child is above average. If you don't have the brains to complete a high school program that is as academically rigorous as the International Baccalaureate diploma (not that I'm pro-IB, but I do get the impression it is challenging), then you don't belong in a bachelor's degree program.

 

High schools typically water down the standard "college prep" curriculum in order to get more kids through it, and doing so backfires. The kids who could have handled a more rigorous program are left unprepared, and those who really aren't college material wind up wasting their time and money starting a degree that they don't finish.

[magnificent_baby]

I would strongly disagree with erasing general ed requirements. Maybe we need job training programs that are different from college degrees? Degrees from universities should produce adults educated in a variety of subjects, IMO.

 

:iagree:

 

Really, the few courses (one or two?) that I have taken that had nothing to do with my degree, were a drop in the bucket compared to the relevant classes. And it was actually a breath of fresh air to study something not related to the heavy content required in my field. As it was explained to me, it is incorporated to develop a well rounded experience. 

[itsheresomewhere]

Stop pretending that college is for everyone, and stop requiring bachelor's degrees for jobs that don't actually require them. Most people probably should do some post-high school vocational training, but we don't live in Lake Woebegone where every child is above average. If you don't have the brains to complete a high school program that is as academically rigorous as the International Baccalaureate diploma (not that I'm pro-IB, but I do get the impression it is challenging), then you don't belong in a bachelor's degree program.

 

High schools typically water down the standard "college prep" curriculum in order to get more kids through it, and doing so backfires. The kids who could have handled a more rigorous program are left unprepared, and those who really aren't college material wind up wasting their time and money starting a degree that they don't finish.

I am probably going to get flamed by someone for saying this but it depends on the IB program.  Some are very good and some are a joke.  Some have it so watered down it is not funny.   

 

I agree with stop requiring degrees for jobs that don't require them.  

[Crimson Wife]

I am probably going to get flamed by someone for saying this but it depends on the IB program.  Some are very good and some are a joke.  Some have it so watered down it is not funny.

I'm not super-familiar with IB, but the impression I get of it around here is that it's like how AP used to be before AP got opened up to anyone who wanted to enroll in it. So it hasn't gotten watered down (at least not yet). The requirement to take 6 IB classes and pass the exams in order to get the diploma keeps out the weaker students.

[MomtoCandJ]

I don't mind a few general Ed classes but to waste about 2 years on them is a bit ridiculous. I like the multi- track idea. Those not wanting to go to college are done after 10th grade, have more vocational training options for those kids. Those who want to go to college can wipe out those general Ed requirements

[Laura Corin]

I am probably going to get flamed by someone for saying this but it depends on the IB program.  Some are very good and some are a joke.  Some have it so watered down it is not funny.   

 

 

Well..... whatever the programme, the exams are centrally marked (internationally).  So there may be a watered-down school but it will result in an obviously mediocre score in the worldwide comparison.  And you have to get a certain number of points to get the diploma.  There are stats here that show the passing percentage over a few years.

 

Calvin starts his final IB exams on Monday.

 

L

[Jen in NY]

The substance abuse and human abuse is a choice -- there are other options available on many campuses. 

 

I'd like to improve quality by offering more small discussion sections.  I think students do better with more discussion, and recitation in the earlier years will set them up for success so that they have a good idea of the college expectations and figure out how to set up a successful study group more quickly. I'd like to see recitation used more wisely...absolutely no 'do my homework or thinking for me' questions allowed...have them learn to phrase the question to show that they attended lecture, read the material, comprehended and thought a bit before they speak.

 

One thing I like about my son's U is the online math problem sets. Instant feedback and minilessons are available to clear up small points that may not have come out in the assigned problem sets or at recitation.

 

Yes, it is a choice. Just like not wearing a seat belt or smoking in a public building is a choice. But when those things were outlawed and the laws were enforced, compliance improved. AFAIK, providing alcohol to underage people, rape, and dealing/doing illicit drugs are against the law. Stricter enforcement of the rules would have an effect on compliance. Honestly, most places already have rules in the books... but they are not enforced very well if at all.

[Momof3littles]

Agree with being able to fail people.  My husband had a BS in chemistry, worked in the pharma industry for 5 years, and then returned to grad school for his PhD.  While he was TAing and working as a research assistant during his PhD, he had several 2nd and 3rd year chem students who repeatedly handed in lab reports without any discussion section.  He asked me what I thought they should receive for a grade.  I said that I thought that should result in automatic D or F on the lab report.  Not *bothering* to submit a discussion section, the meat and bones IMO, is ridiculous.  These were chem majors at a public ivy.  This was a course in their major!  They weren't freshman.  You don't *bother* to hand in a discussion section, IMO, that should be a failure on the lab report.  Period.  I am not a scientist but have a bachelor's and master's in a healthcare field that required lab courses like chem, physics, etc. 

 

He was told by the undergraduate lab supervisor he could give no lower than a B to these students.

 

He had yet another student who was failing, plain and simple.  She just did not know the material at all.  DH offered up assistance, his office hrs, email, etc.  Not *once* did this student come for help.  This was a sophomore, so IMO past the point where one should be too intimidated to approach a professor or TA for office hours.  He was again told he could give no lower than a B or C, when she had 1) shown no mastery of material whatsoever 2) refused to do anything to remedy it.

IMO this is one of many reasons a bachelor's degree has become so diluted.  Well, I think many degrees, including many advanced degrees, have become very diluted.

 

I do not understand the thought process, other than $$, in allowing students in upper level courses *in their own major* hand in such a weak attempt as a lab report without any discussion and receive a passing grade.  Or even a C.  No way!

[bettyandbob]

I am probably going to get flamed by someone for saying this but it depends on the IB program.  Some are very good and some are a joke.  Some have it so watered down it is not funny.   

 

I agree with stop requiring degrees for jobs that don't require them.  

 

Except a student can't actually earned an IB diploma unless he earns the scores on the exams. And also does a pretty hefty project separate from any class. The projects and written portions of the exams are scored by parties independent of the school--so the school can't fake the students doing the work. Exams are all or mostly essay, so the student must be able to communicate in writing. There is another part of each exam that is oral. Oral and written scores are combined to get the final scores.

 

The strong emphasis on development of oral and written communication, as well as the analysis required in the writing is what I think makes IB a better college prep approach than AP. YMMV

 

If you earn a full IB diploma, it is fairly easy to gain entrance to European Universities. The program was developed to meet their entrance requirements. Since most education systems in Europe rely on tracking, one can extrapolate that a student finishing the full IB diploma program is as well prepared for university level work as a student who was tracked for university in Europe.

[shawthorne44]

This is what I would do for higher education.

 

1. Stop all federal funding of students at a four-year college for the Freshman year.  Maybe even the first 45 or 60 hours.    
2. Fully and completely fund (tuition, student fees and maybe books) at community colleges for the same time period.  

Basically, if you want to go away to college with (my) tax payer dollars you need to prove yourself first.

The community colleges can handle the freshman classes just fine.  It is their forte.

This would reserve the 4-year universities for those who gave a darn, and would also limit the "woo hoo, away from mom and dad.  I am going to binge drink and ignore my studies.  "

I know this is a pipe dream, but I would really like tracking and kids to be able to get a good job after high school.  My Junior Year, I was friends with an exchange student from Sweden.  She went to an Engineering High School.  That school graduated a year later than us (avg. age 19) but they were able to get an entry level Engineering job when they graduated.  How cool would that be?  Maybe it was an engineering tech. job, I was in High School then so I didn't understand the distinction.  But, here you need an Associates degree from an engineering program (and the debt) to get that same job.  
 

[Reefgazer]

I almost don't know where to begin because so much needs improvement, but here are a few starters:
 

1.  Reduce the amount of federal financial aid to colleges that spend a large percentage of their money on non-academic pursuits (student centers, non-teaching faculty/non-teaching employees, sports).

 

2.  Reduce administrative pressure on faculty to maintain a particular pass rate.  This "pass rate" business is unspoken at the college where I teach, so to do this, some type of exit exam that tests knowledge in some way probably would be needed.

 

3.  Allow the use of older editions of textbooks in undergraduate courses (at the professor's option).  Textbook companies change a few pictures every few years, call it a new edition, and stop printing old books, leading to spiraling textbook costs.  Alternately, let the professor post all detailed notes and pictures online in lieu of a textbook (with proper citations, of course).

 

4.  Maintain more integrity in online class offerings, including required monitoring of exams so that the college can ensure that the student's work is his own.

 

5.  Eliminate teaching degrees.  Math should be taught by mathematicians, science by scientists, etc...from middle school on up.  Elementary teachers can take additional teaching courses.

[regentrude]

 . Do most schools require something like American History, with it being a repeat of high school? I doubt it. At my son's school, they have to have a couple history classes, but there are so many to choose from, things they most likely never touched on in high school.

 

That depends on school and state. In my state, there is a state law that all publicly funded colleges MUST require a course in US history for every student.

[Reefgazer]

I think they should provide the same thing as far as topic, but at a much higher level.  Deeper into a topic, for example.

What do the general ed classes provide that couldn't or shouldn't have been provided in high school? 

 

[Reefgazer]

This is what I would do for higher education.

 

1. Stop all federal funding of students at a four-year college for the Freshman year.  Maybe even the first 45 or 60 hours.    
2. Fully and completely fund (tuition, student fees and maybe books) at community colleges for the same time period.  

Basically, if you want to go away to college with (my) tax payer dollars you need to prove yourself first.

The community colleges can handle the freshman classes just fine.  It is their forte.

This would reserve the 4-year universities for those who gave a darn, and would also limit the "woo hoo, away from mom and dad.  I am going to binge drink and ignore my studies.  "

I know this is a pipe dream, but I would really like tracking and kids to be able to get a good job after high school.  My Junior Year, I was friends with an exchange student from Sweden.  She went to an Engineering High School.  That school graduated a year later than us (avg. age 19) but they were able to get an entry level Engineering job when they graduated.  How cool would that be?  Maybe it was an engineering tech. job, I was in High School then so I didn't understand the distinction.  But, here you need an Associates degree from an engineering program (and the debt) to get that same job.  

 

 

New financial aid rules put into place a few summers ago have helped remedy this situation.  Now, you have to maintain a certain GPA to maintain your Pell grant.  Of course, this caused a serious drop in enrollment, so now my school has moved on to pressuring professors to pass everyone with a "C".  That policy is unspoken, of course, which makes it hard to discuss in public in a straightforward manner, which makes it hard to remedy.  The policy also hits science courses hard, because A+P I,  for example, tends to have a very high wash-out rate, so those professors are always getting crap about their pass rates.