Those of you who were impacted by the big Circe thread of 2012 check in here

[Alte Veste Academy]

We are really "bad" about stopping and making commentary as we go along.   Today they jumped in and talked about how something reminded them of Telltale Heart or Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.   Not today particularly, but if someone likes a particular way something is phrased or throw out "did you catch that allusion to_____?"  

 

Reading is not just reading around here.   It is an experience.  :)

 

This precisely captures why I love read-alouds, for nonfiction as well as for fiction. 

[justamouse]

 

 

Here's a practical question for the experienced moms that hopefully isn't too much of a highjack: how quickly do you move through texts in your homeschool? How does that vary by age? I inhaled books when I was young, and, with the exception of some college classes, the effect of my schooling was also to encourage reading more, faster. What, if anything, do you do to slow your kids down and read carefully and deeply? 

 

Plunks another book into the amazon cart...

 

This is where I think I may separate from MCT's advice of a lot of classical books read per term? While *I* can read like that, and my kids can, when I teach the book--say, Faustus, we went over every line together. We read about Marlowe, his atheistic group with Raleigh, his competition with Shakespeare, and then poured over the book. Then, afterward we read Tempest (which is Shakespeare's answer to Faustus) and were able to watch the play and again, poured over every line together so we could understand WHY it was an answer to Faustus. Festina lente. 

 

But, apart form that, he was reading on his own--I think he finished up the Verne collection during that time. 

 

So it's not quite either or, it can be both and. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

I am a novice here, but I think you can definitely read books too quickly. I get that volume matters, but all the volume in the world won't compensate for losing the experience of living with a book for a while, letting its lessons seep in slowly. 

[8filltheheart]

This is where I think I may separate from MCT's advice of a lot of classical books read per term?

 

I agree. It took dd and me weeks to complete Tolkien's a Fall of Arthur. It is a thin book. But over 1/2 the book is analysis of multiple Arthurian poems. It is not something you can just "read" and have it really mean anything. You have to sift through why it matters by phrasing something one way vs another. Is that typical in lit? It depends on what we are reading. I don't care about volume. I care about appreciation as well as enjoyment.

[ScoutTN]

I am a novice here, but I think you can definitely read books too quickly. I get that volume matters, but all the volume in the world won't compensate for losing the experience of living with a book for a while, letting its lessons seep in slowly.

 

I found this to be very true in grad school, as we were assigned a passage of Scripture on which to write a paper. I lived in those verses for four months, thinking about them, studying them for hours and hours every week and they are a part of me now in a way that other parts of the Bible or other books will never be. It is good to dwell in a book for a while!

[Soror]

Plunks another book into the amazon cart...

 

This is where I think I may separate from MCT's advice of a lot of classical books read per term? While *I* can read like that, and my kids can, when I teach the book--say, Faustus, we went over every line together. We read about Marlowe, his atheistic group with Raleigh, his competition with Shakespeare, and then poured over the book. Then, afterward we read Tempest (which is Shakespeare's answer to Faustus) and were able to watch the play and again, poured over every line together so we could understand WHY it was an answer to Faustus. Festina lente. 

 

But, apart form that, he was reading on his own--I think he finished up the Verne collection during that time. 

 

So it's not quite either or, it can be both and. 

Yes, that is the goal here. I don't want to force ds to go through every book slowly, especially at his age I just want him to enjoy for the most part. When it comes to studying more it will be a much slower pace though.

[LostintheCosmos]

Thanks, all, these responses are helpful! I should get "festina lente" tattooed on my forehead.

[justamouse]

Thanks, all, these responses are helpful! I should get "festina lente" tattooed on my forehead.

Here's a link to Dr Perrin's 8 Essential Principals of a Classical Pedagogy. They're very good. 

 

The first one is titled Festina Lente

[birchbark]

I finally got around to watching the great video Justamouse posted. The word "liturgical" in the title threw me off a little, and I assumed it was a Catholic approach. If you haven't seen it yet I'll give you a hint: she uses liturgical in the sense of ritual or rhythm. Something I have also heard from Waldorf schooling, interestingly enough.

 

Anyway, her three-step honeymaking analogy reminded me of something I read in Veith and Kern's book on Classical Ed. They present the trivium as a pattern for learning anything:

 

 

The trivium is a paradigm for the mastery of language. But it applies to far more than language. Every subject has its grammar, logic, and rhetoric. To be educated in any discipline, you must 1) know its basic facts (grammar); 2) be able to reason clearly about it (logic); and 3) communicate its ideas and present them effectively (rhetoric). 

Put another way, every type of learning requires knowledge (grammar), understanding (logic), and creativity (rhetoric). . .

 

Now, just to figure out how to incorporate those three steps in my homeschool. . .

 

A little change of subject: I just realized that another practical effect of the Big Thread was simplification of our schoolday. I am a minimalist at heart, and simplifying had pervaded most of my life already. . . the house, our schedule, our menu, my wardrobe, etc. But for some reason I never thought to simplify my curriculum. It was a great "duh" moment when I realized I could do just that! I left our CM-inspired box curriculum and built something simple around the 3R's. I have to say I'm a little less enthused about CM as a result, since I think of a CM education as quite broad (think exposure) and a classical one as more narrowly-focused and deep. But I know A. Kern likes CM, so maybe I'm not understanding it correctly. :)

[EndOfOrdinary]

This has been bothering me. At first I thought, it's fascinating great works tie into each other. Then I wondered, how did she know this? Why didn't I know this? And the worse thought yet, why didn't I know that I didn't know this (or why didn't I think to even look for such a connection)? So, did you just google it? Did you read it in a guide? Please tell me that I will stumble across important information such as this as I plan and my ignorance won't keep my kids in the dark.

 

These sorts of connections are one of the reasons I love the Teaching Companies Great Courses.  They know so much more than I do.  They should!  These are professors who have done some serious studying in their field.  Right now we are doing the Odyessy (Ms. VanDiver is amazing :001_wub:).  She will make a connection as to how Telemachus and the suitor are really embodying the problem of the single parent.  Lightbulb moment for me.  Not so much more my son, but we can stop the lecture and really delve into it.  After some discussion, he can start making connections all over everywhere.  There are many references between works.

 

iTunesU is a great sources as well.  Much of our Beowulf studies came from here and there were connections with the Bible, Tolkien, various French and Germanic epics, lots of history. I listen to many lectures there (Oxford, Yale, Harvard, Cambridge), get my mind blown, and then discuss with Ds.  It has really awakened me to the difference between college with a little c and College with a capital C.  Discussion can be the same thing.  Lately, I have found with a little background myself we can really elevate the discussion to having a capital D.

 

[justamouse]

This has been bothering me. At first I thought, it's fascinating great works tie into each other. Then I wondered, how did she know this? Why didn't I know this? And the worse thought yet, why didn't I know that I didn't know this (or why didn't I think to even look for such a connection)? So, did you just google it? Did you read it in a guide? Please tell me that I will stumble across important information such as this as I plan and my ignorance won't keep my kids in the dark.

 

Reading ahead of them (2-3 books ahead, use a notebook and keep it all written down), researching, and listening to lectures. Cast a wide net. 

[Mystie]

What an amazing thread! It's like CiRCEThread 2.0 :)

 

Next year we'll be wrapping up our first cycle through history with modern, then 7th grade the next year and I begin my foray into real literature discussion. 

 

I read The Living Page notebooking book last month and have been thinking about it quite a bit. What I really desire is that education is simply *life* in our house, not a compartment of our day, and what kids do, but what we are privileged to participate in together. 

 

This year we've begun Shakespeare and it just thrills my heard how much these 7, 8, 9, and 10 year old (I'm doing it with a friend's kids while she reads aloud to the youngers) get into it - the real deal Shakespeare. We learn quotes, we laugh, it comes up during play times, we listen to an audio version while following along in our own books and the kids' faces contort as they mouth the words and pretend they are the one reading it. I want more of this in our days. 

 

I am thinking at least twice a week we'll have time and space and quiet in our days to notebook freely. I have always kept a commonplace book spottily, and all my kids have off-and-on copied me in this since they could hold a pencil. I would love to give all of us the time and space to make it a habit and a love. And my boys enjoy drawing, and I want to learn calligraphy, so I'd also love to reserve some time for us to sit around together (maybe with an audio book) and pursue those things together - scholé together.

 

[justamouse]

I saw that Kfamily used a notebook too, while working ahead of her girls. It reminds me of annotated journaling in highschool. I'm allergic to that. ;)

 

I have to, otherwise I just don't have the braincells. :D I just title the thing with every book and keep adding pages. 

[Kfamily]

I have to, otherwise I just don't have the braincells. :D I just title the thing with every book and keep adding pages. 

 

Yes, this is just what I do. :) And this is how the Book Notes that I've created for a number of books began. I'd decided that I might as well go one step (or two) more and turn what I had just read and for what I had written notes into something that I could print for the girls to use when it was their turn to read from the book. We were able to dig a lot deeper when I came to the table better prepared. Otherwise, I tended to ask generic, open-ended questions (which are fine sometimes)  when I really wanted to be able to take our conversations and/or their narrations up a level.

[Pen]

I'm interested in what you all would recommend for readers. My K'er has finished the Flyleaf Press books we own an checks out the easy readers from the library. I wouldn't describe those as beautiful or virtuous. What would be appropriate assigned reading that evokes, beauty, truth, virtue, etc? Beatrix Potter? Anything else?

 

 

The Magic Tree House books were fairly easy readers, and some of them had as the "quest" to find things or help others with things that had to do with beauty or virtue in some way. My son first became familiar with things like famous Haiku poetry, jazz music, Plato-- and though not his first exposure, even more interested in Mozart and Leonardo Da Vinci from reading MTH, and coming to books where Jack and Annie met a famous Haiku poet, or met Mozart (or Shakepeare or others).  

 

City Dog, Country Frog is an easy to read book that is actually beautiful itself, both in illustrations and text and content.

 

A children's version of Tolstoy's The Three Questions exists, same author/illustrator as City Dog above, but I have forgotten his name.

 

With same artist as The Very Hungry Caterpillar, there is a book called something like The Mountain Who Loved a Bird, (different author, I think) which has a lot of beauty to it.

[Amy Jo]

I loved the Living Page as well. Actually I was almost bored at first - I've done enough internet searching to have seen most of the forms and notebooks she showed. But the end - wow. What a reminder that education is not for utility, but for beauty. I think this is my favorite about-CM book actually. I really can't sum it up well, but it hit me. I want to reread it and think deeply.

 

Of course, now I also want to get Beauty in the Word. And top priority tonight is to watch the video y'all linked.

 

Does anyone find themselves progressing in some things but spinning their wheels in others? I'm still trying to get a routine set. Maybe it is really harder for me - DH is self-employed and seasonal, so we really have no external structure. I really want that rhythm. I just worry too much, and I need to just make it happen.

 

I'm really enjoying this thread, and am off to look at Serl's books again. Which I own, haha. Actually I'd love to use them - like Gillian I'm trying to find SINGLE resources to cover whole subjects instead of having to mash things together.

[lewelma]

This is where I think I may separate from MCT's advice of a lot of classical books read per term?..... 

 

So it's not quite either or, it can be both and. 

 

It is definitely both/and here.  My older just finished The Luminaries (this year's booker prize winner) and it took us 22 hours to discuss and for him to write an essay which equalled about 4 weeks of work (it is a really complicated book).  During that time, he kept reading at night, and finished The Great Gatsby and started Growing Up by Baker, plus my dh read To Kill a Mockingbird to them. So now we are ready to analyze another book and we have 3 to choose from.  We have done 1 hour of discussing and reading literary analysis of The Great Gatsby, but neither of us were particularly in love with it, so he is more likely to really study and write about To Kill a Mocking Bird.  But the point is, for every book we deeply analyze, he reads about 2 more (depending on length) and is often read aloud another.  This is what MCT was talking about.  My take was that MCT did not think that all books *should* be analyzed; some should simply be read for pleasure.  Just by reading everyday, you get through a lot of books.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Chrysalis Academy]

RIght, I'm rereading Classics in the Classroom (MCT) right now, and that is definitely what he advocates -  3 in class books, plus another 12 or so read outside of class and discussed one on one, no essays or term papers on those.  So 15 total, but only 3 that you are digging into deeply and writing about.  That seems completely doable . . . 

[justamouse]

I loved the Living Page as well. Actually I was almost bored at first - I've done enough internet searching to have seen most of the forms and notebooks she showed. But the end - wow. What a reminder that education is not for utility, but for beauty. I think this is my favorite about-CM book actually. I really can't sum it up well, but it hit me. I want to reread it and think deeply.

 

Of course, now I also want to get Beauty in the Word. And top priority tonight is to watch the video y'all linked.

 

Does anyone find themselves progressing in some things but spinning their wheels in others? I'm still trying to get a routine set. Maybe it is really harder for me - DH is self-employed and seasonal, so we really have no external structure. I really want that rhythm. I just worry too much, and I need to just make it happen.

 

I'm really enjoying this thread, and am off to look at Serl's books again. Which I own, haha. Actually I'd love to use them - like Gillian I'm trying to find SINGLE resources to cover whole subjects instead of having to mash things together.

I think you need to give yourself a break with Dh there and working seasonally. That is HARD. When my Dh was working from home? I almost killed him. 

 

I bet you already have a rhythm, and don't know it, to can't see it. Ask your kids what you do next. :D 

[prairiegirl]

I loved the Living Page as well. Actually I was almost bored at first - I've done enough internet searching to have seen most of the forms and notebooks she showed. But the end - wow. What a reminder that education is not for utility, but for beauty. I think this is my favorite about-CM book actually. I really can't sum it up well, but it hit me. I want to reread it and think deeply.

 

Of course, now I also want to get Beauty in the Word. And top priority tonight is to watch the video y'all linked.

 

Does anyone find themselves progressing in some things but spinning their wheels in others? I'm still trying to get a routine set. Maybe it is really harder for me - DH is self-employed and seasonal, so we really have no external structure. I really want that rhythm. I just worry too much, and I need to just make it happen.

 

I'm really enjoying this thread, and am off to look at Serl's books again. Which I own, haha. Actually I'd love to use them - like Gillian I'm trying to find SINGLE resources to cover whole subjects instead of having to mash things together.

 

I, too, loved The Living Page.  We went to town yesterday and stocked up on notebooks so that we can add some beauty and focus into our day.  I also think that this book is my favourite CM book.   I read Beauty in the Word two years ago but I am planning on reading it again because I am in a different place than where I was two years ago.  :laugh:

 

It is spring,  a time of renewing, blooming, starting over.   It is also spring in my teaching life.  Due to this thread and a few others that are circulating around, to books that I am reading,  to videos that I am watching, to blog posts that I am reading, I feel a renewal, a new birth of how I will teach these children.  As I said earlier in this thread, every year there is a layering back of the Classical Education onion,  I feel another layer being lifted up and set aside as I have been learning more about teaching and CE.  My heart feels lighter and calmer. I have a renewed focus.  Yay  for spring! 

[Amie]

I want to "like" all of your posts!  I learn so much from you lovely ladies.  I enjoyed the Big Circe Thread before and I'm enjoying this one now.  Nothing major to report here...we just keep on keepin' on... 

[Runningmom80]

I would love to see what this looks like in practice in the grammar stage. We read a lot, but that 3rd step, imitating, creating, etc, is missing.

[Momof3]

Wow. I finally got to the end. :) Started through this post...and then took off to read & mull the 'old' CIRCE thread...listened to some audio/podcasts at the CIRCE site...still loving that Liturgy/Virtue video... Wow. 

 

This has totally changed my homeschooling plans. I think the biggest change is that I no longer feel bound to the WTM "way." :) I think what I took from WTM was the idea of history and literature being interwoven/interdependent... I realize now how much that has confined me - separating history and literature is so freeing! I *love* discussing good books with my kids. I no longer feel guilty that we are taking time from other things we could be learning... 

 

From the previous CIRCE thread, and from the video... I also realized I have not had wisdom & virtue as the real goal of my parenting/education plan. I *do* want my children to walk with God and to develop good character, etc. To be men & women that know God and listen to Him - and are useful tools in His hands, not just because they know a lot of things, but because their lives are a reflection of His Life. 

 

Anyhow, the "nuts and bolts" of what this looks like for us:

 

1) I am incorporating something like this: 

http://www.greatbooksacademy.org/curriculum/sample-weekly-schedule/

for our daily/weekly schedule. Our LA will probably be closer to 30 min, and I may do more like 1.5 hrs for history on Fridays depending on how much we're enjoying what we're studying. I'll have library & other books out and about during the week for reading more about history. We also do 30 min of Bible, and 30 min of Circle time (with memory work). 

 

2) Dh & I came up with a list of 15 "Family Values" that we want to work toward as a family. The list may change over time. As we read good books together, we look for examples (positive and negative) and insights regarding our FV. The kids have already started to notice & make connections with other subjects and in listening to sermons, too. We pray for each other and discuss *how* we need to grow in these areas. It's amazing how much this is doing for my kids! We're reading The Tale of Despereaux, and having some amazing conversations about the power of sacrificial love, the meaning of hope, and the importance of family/community. 

 

3) I am paring down our read-aloud list to include just the very best & beautiful. :) We'll be going back through Beatrix Potter, Winnie-the-Pooh, Charlotte's Web, The Trumpet of the Swan, and visiting some new friends (Narnia, here we come! Yay!) as well. 

 

4) I am still working on incorporating some the end-of-the-day journaling ideas from the video: collect, connect, create

The kids already journal about their experiences, but I think we could tap this more to have more meaningful results. :)

 

5) Teaching from a state of rest. I feel so at rest. No stress (or envy) over curricula...no (well, not so much) frustration with children not *getting* it...and the kids & I feeling free to enjoy beautiful books together! 

 

So much more...but this is all I can pull from my brain right now. :) THANK YOU to all who have been a part of this (and the other) thread! You have rescued me from the mire of learning for learning's sake!

[Momof3]

I'd like to add that the discussion (in this thread) about book analysis has been extremely helpful, too. With my kids, I steer clear of "this is what this book means" - and focus on "what have I learned from this book?" The focus is not so much what we think the author is trying to convey to us (and the rest of the world) - except for maybe where it's obvious - but how the author/work has changed us through the reading.

[LostintheCosmos]

I would love to see what this looks like in practice in the grammar stage. We read a lot, but that 3rd step, imitating, creating, etc, is missing.

 

When kids are young, I think merely providing the unstructured time and space for kids to respond to what we are reading together is probably adequate - they will create in developmentally appropriate ways if given that margin. I don't intend to require any creative output in these years. Do your kids play with the stories you are reading together? Do they act them out or incorporate them into their own play? Do they draw? Sing to themselves? Build things? If you feel like imitation/creation is missing, my first impulse would be to ensure that there is adequate open time and space for it to happen rather than add any specific thing. FWIW, as an absolute beginner myself.  :001_smile:

[Momof3]

In general, I try to plan for the girls with these basic ideas:

 

Do we love the book? (or in some cases, is it just one of those with which we should be familiar...thinking of Swift here... :))

Are we using our imagination and/or making connections with other books in our discussions and written work?

Are we using resources that truly cement major concepts and/or bring to light new perspectives?

Are we trying to bring out the book's connection or the concept's connection to big ideas such as truth, justice, beauty, etc.

Am I remembering to keep art and music in the center (rather than forgotten at the edge) of each day? (I'm still working on this one....)

Am I providing time to be outside, to live in nature, appreciate the natural world (and learn from it)? (I'm still working on this one too...)

Hmm... How do you "keep art and music in the center." For us, art and music are way *off* the edge. I think I can spy them...through binoculars. :) Ds takes piano lessons. We sing songs during Circle Time. They are always coloring/drawing at the table during free time. It just sounds so beautiful: "art and music in the center"... *Sigh* 

[TammyB]

LpsytrewgqQ

Another historical fiction question: for instance, on the 1000 Good Books list, unde "literature" are listed many books that I wouldhave considered historicaQl fiction. Hogg gg llll What do youfyxxc8ooio (anyone) consider criteria for classifying something as literature or historical fiction?

[Amy Jo]

RIght, I'm rereading Classics in the Classroom (MCT) right now, and that is definitely what he advocates -  3 in class books, plus another 12 or so read outside of class and discussed one on one, no essays or term papers on those.  So 15 total, but only 3 that you are digging into deeply and writing about.  That seems completely doable . . . 

 

Is this per term or quarter or year or?? Sorry if I missed it, I've looked at MCT but never jumped in.

[Kfamily]

Hmm... How do you "keep art and music in the center." For us, art and music are way *off* the edge. I think I can spy them...through binoculars. :) Ds takes piano lessons. We sing songs during Circle Time. They are always coloring/drawing at the table during free time. It just sounds so beautiful: "art and music in the center"... *Sigh* 

 

This is still a work in progress for me too.

 

Both of my girls also take piano lessons (and this includes serious theory work too) but we are very fortunate in our piano teacher who really tries to bring music into their world and not just piano lessons. She has all her students meet once a month for many months out of the year (not all of them...December is devoted to a Christmas Recital, February to Piano Festival, May to Guild, etc.) in which the students come together as a group and listen and learn about a composer (she reads a short biography and they listen to a piece together and talk about it) as well as each student plays one piano piece. She also assigns the magazine Piano Explorer as theory homework each month. This magazine always features a composer and other articles about music (opera, musical time periods, etc.). We also listen to different composers and other music. I want to try to find a way to get both girls to a symphony and we have watched operas, musicals, ballets and other events on television.

 

We study artists throughout the year and I often tie works of art with the history and literature that we are studying. For example, my older daughter chose to study "The Spinners" by Velazquez and then wrote a narration on this painting. This painting corresponded with her reading in Age of Fable on the fable of Arachne.

 

I also want the girls to spend more time with sketchbooks for nature study, use watercolors to complete some narration assignments and/or paint/draw using their own imagination. Many of the Book Notes and guides that I created incorporate paintings to study or opportunities to paint/draw their thoughts in response to something they've just read.

 

For me, keeping art and music closer in the center means to find ways to give the girls either opportunities to create beauty, admire beauty or to at least find something that isn't beautiful or good and let it remind us why we want to strive for good, truth, beauty, justice and any of the other great ideas.

 

Life has been so scattered for me lately with pulls from many directions that I have big plans and intentions but never enough time to bring them fully around. :)

[justamouse]

Hmm... How do you "keep art and music in the center." For us, art and music are way *off* the edge. I think I can spy them...through binoculars. :) Ds takes piano lessons. We sing songs during Circle Time. They are always coloring/drawing at the table during free time. It just sounds so beautiful: "art and music in the center"... *Sigh* 

Art and music are huge here but because I play music all of the time, we sing and whistle all of the time, and there are instruments all over the house. 

 

I have an art table out all of the time with watercolors, pencils, pastels, gouache, and crayons. Brushes, jars for water, and tons of paper are out at all times. I'm working on stuff, the kids are, we just get in the mood and use it. We don't have circle time, we just belt out songs. 

 

 

I would love to see what this looks like in practice in the grammar stage. We read a lot, but that 3rd step, imitating, creating, etc, is missing.

I have been thinking about this, but I think I may have come to a different conclusion. 

 

If the top of Bloom's Taxonomy is creation, is that  preplanned creation? I'm thinking it's not. I was going to tackle this the same way, "let's make something!" but that wouldn't be prompted by THEM, and if it's not, it's no different than me dragging them through a lesson. 

 

When my kids write songs, that is Bloom's Creation. It has nothing to do with me, it was spontaneous creation on their part, HOWEVER, I facilitated that by offering instruments, and the learning. When the other was writing her own poem, it was spontaneous creation on her part born of the lessons and the years of copy work. Which, I think is what Bloom's is talking about. 

 

I think we may get it too full of fingerprints if we make them create something at the end of a unit, say. I'm still thinking about this. Do I want to make them create something after a semester's history, or do I let it go and trust that if it's contemplated, it will come out in creation? I can facilitate creation by allowing them the time and the room, I can offer things like the Hobbit Breakfast, for instance, but how much do we press it? Is it truly learned and contemplated if we press it or require it?

[Kfamily]

 

 

I think we may get it too full of fingerprints if we make them create something at the end of a unit, say. I'm still thinking about this. Do I want to make them create something after a semester's history, or do I let it go and trust that if it's contemplated, it will come out in creation? I can facilitate creation by allowing them the time and the room, I can offer things like the Hobbit Breakfast, for instance, but how much do we press it? Is it truly learned and contemplated if we press it or require it?

 

Yes, this exactly. This is why I really like to give them a choice of multiple types of narration suggestions. Not only does it give them variety but also it gives them choice. This lets them decide in what way they can take what they've read and in what way it inspires them. Some days they are inspired to write a poem, some days to paint, some days to compare to other works they've read, some days to pull something they find interesting and compare it to a modern idea/problem and some days to just tell me about it and move on to something else. :)

[Momof3]

So...is it better to just have a block of time for "art" - and allow them to create whatever they like from whatever they have absorbed (from history, science, Bible, literature, etc.)? Rather than to integrate art into subjects...

[birchbark]

Art and music are huge here but because I play music all of the time, we sing and whistle all of the time, and there are instruments all over the house. 

 

I have an art table out all of the time with watercolors, pencils, pastels, gouache, and crayons. Brushes, jars for water, and tons of paper are out at all times. I'm working on stuff, the kids are, we just get in the mood and use it. We don't have circle time, we just belt out songs. 

 

 

I have been thinking about this, but I think I may have come to a different conclusion. 

 

If the top of Bloom's Taxonomy is creation, is that  preplanned creation? I'm thinking it's not. I was going to tackle this the same way, "let's make something!" but that wouldn't be prompted by THEM, and if it's not, it's no different than me dragging them through a lesson. 

 

When my kids write songs, that is Bloom's Creation. It has nothing to do with me, it was spontaneous creation on their part, HOWEVER, I facilitated that by offering instruments, and the learning. When the other was writing her own poem, it was spontaneous creation on her part born of the lessons and the years of copy work. Which, I think is what Bloom's is talking about. 

 

I think we may get it too full of fingerprints if we make them create something at the end of a unit, say. I'm still thinking about this. Do I want to make them create something after a semester's history, or do I let it go and trust that if it's contemplated, it will come out in creation? I can facilitate creation by allowing them the time and the room, I can offer things like the Hobbit Breakfast, for instance, but how much do we press it? Is it truly learned and contemplated if we press it or require it?

 

I was thinking along these lines too.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Is this per term or quarter or year or?? Sorry if I missed it, I've looked at MCT but never jumped in.

 

He's talking about, at the gifted jr high/senior high level, that students should be reading 15 classic works per year - 3 in class, and those books have essay tests and papers, and 12 outside of class (two every 6 weeks, over a 36 week school year).  The 12 outside-of-class books aren't tested or written about, but they are discussed at a deep, Bloom-Taxonomy level via Socratic questioning and discussion.

 

I'm not advocating that this is the best way to do it - just clarifying what it is he's suggesting in Classics in the Classroom, because it was referred to upthread.

[birchbark]

If the top of Bloom's Taxonomy is creation, is that  preplanned creation? I'm thinking it's not. I was going to tackle this the same way, "let's make something!" but that wouldn't be prompted by THEM, and if it's not, it's no different than me dragging them through a lesson. 

When my kids write songs, that is Bloom's Creation. It has nothing to do with me, it was spontaneous creation on their part, HOWEVER, I facilitated that by offering instruments, and the learning. When the other was writing her own poem, it was spontaneous creation on her part born of the lessons and the years of copy work. Which, I think is what Bloom's is talking about. 

 

I think we may get it too full of fingerprints if we make them create something at the end of a unit, say. I'm still thinking about this. Do I want to make them create something after a semester's history, or do I let it go and trust that if it's contemplated, it will come out in creation? I can facilitate creation by allowing them the time and the room, I can offer things like the Hobbit Breakfast, for instance, but how much do we press it? Is it truly learned and contemplated if we press it or require it?

 

I think it's good to teach them the tools or skills to create, such as writing, painting, putting together a play, shop or lab skills, etc, so that students are prepared when they become inspired or motivated.

[Amy Jo]

He's talking about, at the gifted jr high/senior high level, that students should be reading 15 classic works per year - 3 in class, and those books have essay tests and papers, and 12 outside of class (two every 6 weeks, over a 36 week school year).  The 12 outside-of-class books aren't tested or written about, but they are discussed at a deep, Bloom-Taxonomy level via Socratic questioning and discussion.

 

I'm not advocating that this is the best way to do it - just clarifying what it is he's suggesting in Classics in the Classroom, because it was referred to upthread.

 

Thank you! So that is kind-of like AO in volume. Hmmm, I need to figure out these discussions and such. I don't want to force the kids to do XYZ, but I do need to prepare better as a teacher.

 

I think it's good to teach them the tools or skills to create, such as writing, painting, putting together a play, shop or lab skills, etc, so that students are prepared when they become inspired or motivated.

 

This is my goal as well. To both schedule time for teaching the skills and to have the supplies available for spontaneous creation on the children's part.

[justamouse]

I think it's good to teach them the tools or skills to create, such as writing, painting, putting together a play, shop or lab skills, etc, so that students are prepared when they become inspired or motivated.

 

I'm thinking along the same lines. The more I analyze what they do to create, the more I think you're right. Tools and skills. 

[Mrs. A]

When kids are young, I think merely providing the unstructured time and space for kids to respond to what we are reading together is probably adequate - they will create in developmentally appropriate ways if given that margin. I don't intend to require any creative output in these years. Do your kids play with the stories you are reading together? Do they act them out or incorporate them into their own play? Do they draw? Sing to themselves? Build things? If you feel like imitation/creation is missing, my first impulse would be to ensure that there is adequate open time and space for it to happen rather than add any specific thing. FWIW, as an absolute beginner myself.  :001_smile:

 

 

I agree with this. A book that might be helpful for anyone considering how to go about this is Project-Based Homeschooling  I feel like this book is a great look at how education as a life could be played out. 

 

Another thing that may help is to really dig deep into one topic and stay there for as long as you want/need to. I mentioned in a previous post that we've spent the last couple years reading and re-reading LotR and Narnia and I feel like because we took our time and read them again and again, ds and dds were really able to take them in and make them their own. They have spent hours upon hours drawing scenes from the books, sometimes exactly as written, sometimes varying them with their own touches. They play games like "Gandalf and the Balrog" and "The White Witch" all the time, but all this is also mixed in with other stuff that they're interested in. We read other things while we were reading these books (they were mostly our bedtime read-alouds) and they were able to make all kinds of connections and comparisons. There were even some stories written (or rather dictated to me) and ds likes for his copywork to come from The Hobbit.  

 

Now each of my kids is a different person and so all of these things looked very different coming from each of them, but I really think that one of the biggest factors in all this was simply time. Time to let all the ideas soak in and that way there was something there to draw on when they were ready to create.  

[EndOfOrdinary]

You do not only need to have the art in merely LA. We do artistic math all the time. Multiples are a rhythm, they are drawings of waves, they are a dance to drum beats. Fractions are revolutions of a wheel, beats to the rumba or the Cha Cha, phases of the moon. Map work is another area where kids can create with the world we live on or another world that they have read about. Planets and nature journals are fantastic places to do observations and art. Foreign languages are musical. Grammar is musical and you change the flow or rhythm of a sentence when you shift clauses around.

 

Art as a separate subject doesn't happen much here because we just cannot fit it in. When I started thinking about art as merely an off shoot of life and an extension of being human, then we could do art all the time. There is art in making dinner, art in listening to classical music and dancing as we clean up, art in the early morning hours when we have breakfast on the porch. I needed to expand my idea of art past the basics of curriculum and more into the flow of our learning.

[Runningmom80]

Thanks to everyone that replied to my question. It seems I am on the right track, but I may have a kid that needs a tiny bit of direction. I have project based homeschooling, I love the theory of it, but the only projects my son is interested in are Lego creations. (Which ARE artistic IMO!) I do have a project station set up as well. He's only 7, so I'm not pushing anything at this point, but I want to plant the seeds.

 

This thread is great, I've already thought of little changes we can make to our routine to open up the creative parts of our brains.

[PeterPan]

bump

[Amy Jo]

I really like the Circe podcasts (and Pudewa and others) and I think I'll start buying some. Can y'all list some of your favorites? I'm thinking about this one http://www.circeinstitute.org/store/2012-conference-downloads/creation-imitation-and-analogy-paths-learning and/or Cindy's talk on boys to start with. After I get through the videos on teaching from a state of rest. :)

[Mrs. A]

I'm listening to Andrew Kern's Mimetic Teaching and the Cultivation of Virtue. Awesome. I tried typing out what I'm enjoying most but it's so rich I'm going to have to think on it for awhile before I can discuss it with any sort of sense. :) the talk on boys is on my short list of listen to's.

 

That's one of my favorites. I also love The Ethics of Memory, which is one you have to buy, but very very good.

[justamouse]

I just finished the 8 Principals of Classical Pedagogy this morning. Now I want to order The Great Tradition. Has anyone else read this? I would love to read and discuss it with other Homeschool moms. Apparently I need to work on narration though. Everytime I tried to summarize something wonderful Andrew Kern said from the Mimetic lecture my husband just looked at me as if I was crazy. Maybe Jbug's inability to discuss what she has read is inherited? ;)

I'm reading it now and it is utterly amazing. But it is SLOW going. Meaning, just one essay at a time. Sit. Ponder. 

[TKDmom]

Apparently I need to work on narration though. Everytime I tried to summarize something wonderful Andrew Kern said from the Mimetic lecture my husband just looked at me as if I was crazy.

:lol: Yeah, me too. Dh really tries to look interested when I share what I'm reading, but it's really hard to be interested in the jumbled mess of thoughts that come pouring out of my mouth.

[MyLittleWonders]

Ok, I just watched the Eight Essential Principles video, and took two pages, front and back, of notes. I feel like I have totally messed up my eldest (12, finishing 7th grade), and more than likely have mostly messed up the other two boys (10, 5th grade and 7, 2nd grade). That leaves the three year old girl. She does have Down syndrome, but I'm hoping that doesn't stop us. ;) How, though, does one undo any potential damage done with older students? And where do I find time to make sure I am well prepared and have read what they are reading, so as to engage in discussion/conversation/contemplation with them. And does that happen with every subject? Every day? Do you pick and choose?

[JustEm]

Thank you so much for starting this thread!  I am in the process of reading the original thread you linked to and it has me drooling!!! The first thing I chose to take from it is to ask "Should x have done y? Why/why not?"  Its such a better question than, "why did so and so do this" or "what happened after such and such."  While reading Winnie the Pooh to my 5 and almost 4 year old tonight we were recapping what we read yesterday because we ended in the middle of a chapter.  After my almost 4 year old told me that Pooh was helping Eeyore find his tail I asked if Pooh should have helped him.  An obvious answer so both quickly said yes.  When I asked why it was fun to see my 5 year olds brain work while he contemplated his reasoning.  His response was, "well because that's what friends do for each other."  Another obvious answer but about an hour later he came over to help me put laundry away without being asked and said under his breath, "because that's what friends do for each other." 

 

 

[Changed]

Thank you so much for starting this thread! I am in the process of reading the original thread you linked to and it has me drooling!!! The first thing I chose to take from it is to ask "Should x have done y? Why/why not?" Its such a better question than, "why did so and so do this" or "what happened after such and such." While reading Winnie the Pooh to my 5 and almost 4 year old tonight we were recapping what we read yesterday because we ended in the middle of a chapter. After my almost 4 year old told me that Pooh was helping Eeyore find his tail I asked if Pooh should have helped him. An obvious answer so both quickly said yes. When I asked why it was fun to see my 5 year olds brain work while he contemplated his reasoning. His response was, "well because that's what friends do for each other." Another obvious answer but about an hour later he came over to help me put laundry away without being asked and said under his breath, "because that's what friends do for each other."

I just read (what I assume is) the exact same chapter to my 3 and 4yo. We even read half yesterday and the last half today. And had a very similar conversation. Too funny!

 

And, yes, thank you so much for this thread! I'm trying to follow along and soak it all in. This is the reason I started reading Pooh to my littles, and also the reason my 14yo and I are starting The Hitchhiker's Guide and Much Ado About Nothing.

[JustEm]

I just read (what I assume is) the exact same chapter to my 3 and 4yo. We even read half yesterday and the last half today. And had a very similar conversation. Too funny!

 

And, yes, thank you so much for this thread! I'm trying to follow along and soak it all in. This is the reason I started reading Pooh to my littles, and also the reason my 14yo and I are starting The Hitchhiker's Guide and Much Ado About Nothing.

 

 

Ha! that's pretty funny!  I LOVE The Hitchhiker's Guide books and anytime anyone mentions  it within about a week it shoots up to the top of my must read books!!! Don Quixote, Memorizing the Faith, and St. Catherine of Siena's The Dialogue will thank me that I do not have copies of any of those books.  I read a lot of books at once usually but the current 3 are too much to add anymore.

[ScoutTN]

I just finished listening to Andrew Kern's "Mimetic Teaching and the Cultivation of Virtue" and I find myself encouraged and challenged to be a better learner myself, to be cultivating virtue in my own heart. To "think on these things" to behold Christ more deeply, more consistently. Philippians 4:8-9 has been a recurring theme for me this year. I have been reflecting on the overflow of my soul into my children's lives and not so pleased with what I see lately.

 

Other thoughts that stick with me from the lecture:

The tie-ins to the Beatitudes and to Psalm 1

 

"We become what we behold."

 

"To those who are opposed to humanity, we must become dangerous." Now there's a mission statement for you!

 

Philippians 4:8-9 again ...THINK. Ideas and understanding not just technique.

His comments about the weaknesses of Saxon math remind me of Liping Ma's "profound understanding of mathematics".

I loved that so much of his banter and illustrations were about math because that is not my strong suit and it helps me to make connections to have the applications made. I see things more readily with words based disciplines.

 

The value of thinking long on one thing - already mentioned in several ways in this thread.

 

"To undercut a child's faculty for paying attention is sin." He highlighted progressive education as the obvious culprit here, but I began to think about what else influences in this way. TV for sure. What else? Schedule!

 

The trivium within each lesson. This is so helpful to me.

 

That is all for now. I know that I will be studying and slowly absorbing ideas from these threads for a long while. I feel as though I am on a new path of discovery and wholeness and depth and it is exciting.