Malaysia Airlines flight missing

[maize]

FWIW, I am not trying to be confrontational. I am going to bow out. I wanted to speak up because it felt like the right thing to do vs. lurking and keeping quiet. This is not about a country's people as a whole wanting to save face or lie. A plane disappeared. I have not been able to overcome my sadness over the tragedy and I live 1000s of miles away. Do you honestly think all Malaysians are liars? That's the impression her choice of words give.  I don't want to sully the memory of people who may have died. People insulting Malaysians, the pilots, the authorities, forget that MAS has had a safe track record for many, many years. Anyone who feels it is justified can go back to their Malaysia-bashing if they like.

 

Trying to explain cultural differences does not equal bashing. I have not lived in Malaysia but I have lived in an Asian culture and I agree that understanding the role of face saving is critical to understanding why people do what they do in such a culture. I don't think Heather was calling Malaysians liars in a derogatory sense, I think she was explaining that within the cultural context lying to save face does not have the negative ethical implication it does in the West--it is expected, saving face in general may be more important than being strictly honest.

 

Again, I do not have experience with Malaysian culture and society in particular, so forgive me if I am misrepresenting something. 

[unsinkable]

I hate to appear to be adding to a "24" plot but I just read that the captain had his own flight simulator.

 

 

What does this mean? :001_huh:

 

 

 

That means that he practiced flying different planes at home?

 

Lots of people have flight simulators.  A friends father had a bunch of flight simulator cockpits in his basement because he was a flying enthusiast, even though he never had a pilot's license.

 

What I read is that the captain had his own Boeing 777 simulator.

 

What does it mean? He loved to fly the 777? He loved to practice flying the 777? He was an excellent pilot in the 777?

 

What does it mean? Maybe that he was an excellent pilot and that whatever happened was so catastrophic even an excellent pilot with above average experience in the 777 couldn't overcome.

[ebunny]

Have you lived in Malaysia? Do you know anything about it? Because I do. And I learned this from them. When I asked questions it was explained to me this way. It is part of our cross-cultural training that the Malaysians themselves conduct. They will tell you themselves that it is true. And i have experienced it every day for nearly five years. I think I know a bit more about it than you do so unless you want to come live here and experience it for yourself, you'll just have to trust me.

  

Yes I do love the people here. They are not without their faults just as Americans are not without faults. Americans are demanding... We want answers NOW. But we also value transparency and see ourselves as deserving information from our leaders and rightly so.

Malaysians are fiercely loyal to their country and culture. They take great pride in it. I love that about them. But it also makes them very reluctant to admit to faults in their system.

When people are asking why they can't get a straight answer out of Malaysian officials and instead get "now is not the time to discuss it" they are frustrated. I am frustrated. That is the American in me speaking. My post was an attempt to make others who think like I do understand why things are happening the way they are.

Doesn't make it less frustrating necessarily but inside information hopefully leads to better comprehension and even understanding.

Quark is Malaysian, born and raised.

 

Speaking for myself, it is disappointing when a non-native to a culture, who lives in that culture by choice, makes acerbic comments about it that are very likely to offend the native.

 

In short, your words did offend a Malaysian. Maybe you did not intend to...but the fact is that posting unflattering comments on a culture or country (adopted ) without stopping to think of the multi-cultural ( racial, religious etc) demographic on these boards is...naive.

[Arcadia]

For anyone interested, this Malaysia's daily news article has a nice slightly long summary of the confusions so far

"MISSING MH370: Key areas of confusion"

 

I grew up and live more than three decades just less than an hour south of the MY Border during Dr. Mahathir's era.  Just in case anyone is wondering.

[Heather in Neverland]

Quark is Malaysian, born and raised.

 

Speaking for myself, it is disappointing when a non-native to a culture, who lives in that culture by choice, makes acerbic comments about it that are very likely to offend the native.

 

In short, your words did offend a Malaysian. Maybe you did not intend to...but the fact is that posting unflattering comments on a culture or country (adopted ) without stopping to think of the multi-cultural ( racial, religious etc) demographic on these boards is...naive.

The comments may be unflattering but they are nonetheless true. People say unflattering things about Americans on these boards all the time, and those comments often have some truth behind them. We need to be honest about ourselves and others.

 

Honesty in this situation means that Malaysians have a blind spot when it comes to speaking unpleasant truths. This is affecting how they are communicating information with the non-Malaysian world. THAT is painting themselves in an unflattering light.

 

It doesn't mean I dislike Malaysians. I love Malaysians. This is my home. But that doesn't mean I have to act like they are perfect. I love my family too but I don't act like they are perfect either. Same concept.

[Pawz4me]

  

Quark is Malaysian, born and raised.

 

Speaking for myself, it is disappointing when a non-native to a culture, who lives in that culture by choice, makes acerbic comments about it that are very likely to offend the native.

 

In short, your words did offend a Malaysian. Maybe you did not intend to...but the fact is that posting unflattering comments on a culture or country (adopted ) without stopping to think of the multi-cultural ( racial, religious etc) demographic on these boards is...naive.

 

Ehhh.  Non-Americans on this board bash us all the time.  You get used to it.  And sometimes -- if you can disengage from an emotional reaction -- you can see the kernel (or more) of truth in what's being said.

[Heather in Neverland]

I grew up and live more than three decades just less than an hour south of the MY Border during Dr. Mahathir's era. Just in case anyone is wondering.

Singapore? I LOVE Singapore. I know it catches some flack for being so rigid and rules-oriented but as a left-brained person, their wonderfully organized country is so awesome! And everyone I have met there is so polite. Really great place.

[Colleen]

But has Malaysia botched several aspects of this situation? Probably. Letting stolen passports through immigration, pilots hanging out with women and smoking in the cockpit on previous flights, waffling on time and radar data, and on and on... until they can spin this so that nothing reflects poorly on them, the officials will continue giving vague answers. It's just how they do things here.

 

I have no doubt that the Malaysian government has "botched" as few or as many aspects of this investigation as would nearly any other country.  As the Secretary General of INTERPOL has stated, the vast majority of nations don't utilize their database of Lost & Stolen Travel Documents.  It's not remotely unusual, therefore, that Malaysia "let" stolen passports through immigration; rather, it's something most of us aren't aware is happening on a fairly regular basis.  "Pilots hanging out with women & smoking in the cockpit on previous flights" is a rather broad assertion based on minimal allegations.  And let's be honest, questionable conduct like this is by no means limited to Malaysians.  It's understandable that comments like this are offensive to some here.

[quark]

Okay, I have now seen for myself why some posters I admire advocate staying away from The Chat Board. Lesson learned.

[Arcadia]

Honesty in this situation means that Malaysians have a blind spot when it comes to speaking unpleasant truths.

 

 

Your choice of words hurt because most people would have difficulty speaking unpleasant truths, it is nothing unique to Malaysians.

 

In the case of MH370, there are legal issues with speaking unpleasant truths without it getting screened by the legal service. People are ready to sue MAS for damages.  It is not as simple as just face saving.  I do get what you are saying, just that it is not as simple as that given the politics of the MY govt and the PM is not as "strong man" as Dr M.

[Heather in Neverland]

I do get what you are saying, just that it is not as simple as that given the politics of the MY govt and the PM is not as "strong man" as Dr M.

That is definitely true. It's been a rough year for Malaysian politics with the election scandal of last spring still hanging over everyone. The PM is definitely not Dr. M.

 

I am off to bed now and I hope and pray that there are some real answers when I wake up. Not knowing is the worst part for everyone.

 

I know it's improbable but a part of me keeps hoping they landed the plane and people survived. A student from our school was recently killed in an airplane crash from Penang to Laos and it devastated our community. It's all very sad indeed.

[Arcadia]

Okay, I have now seen for myself why some posters I admire advocate staying away from The Chat Board. Lesson learned.

 

It is 1am there. Thinking of alcohol reminds me of the Tiger Beer ad, "Its Tiger Time".  Nah, I'm having my uncountable number of coffee while my night owls sleep. 

[FaithManor]

Is there anything new? Our news is being tken over by the very horrible explosion in NYC that demolished two buildings in East Harlem and damaged others. There are casualties and injuries so it's the top story. So very sad! But, I can't get my mind off the missing plane and it's occupants and knowing that his may engulf our stateside news agencies was hoping for international news updates here.

 

I need to remember to check the BBC.

[DawnM]

I have not been relying on American news sources for updates.  Well, I have been checking CNN.com, but also looking at several other websites (as well as googling for updates.)

 

And of course, I check in here!  :lol:

 

I may have to be off-line for 3 days as we are heading to a competition and I don't know if wifi is available.  It may kill me.  I can check at night in the hotel, but during the day may be problematic.

 

 

Is there anything new? Our news is being tken over by the very horrible explosion in NYC that demolished two buildings in East Harlem and damaged others. There are casualties and injuries so it's the top story. So very sad! But, I can't get my mind off the missing plane and it's occupants and knowing that his may engulf our stateside news agencies was hoping for international news updates here.

I need to remember to check the BBC.

 

[Arcadia]

Is there anything new?

...

I need to remember to check the BBC.

 

Nothing new.

 

Putting the news links here for convenience

 

MAS Media update link  http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html

New Straits Times (Malaysian daily) MH370 page http://www.nst.com.my/mh370

The Star (Malaysian daily) MH370 page http://www.thestar.com.my/Topics/2014/03/08/Missing-MH370/

 

BBC MH370 page http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26541057

 

 

 

I may have to be off-line for 3 days as we are heading to a competition and I don't know if wifi is available.  It may kill me.  I can check at night in the hotel, but during the day may be problematic.

 

Your night is their daytime. 15 hrs ahead of PST.  Malaysia is on GMT+8

So the news updates would be in our nighttime.

 

[Seasider]

Thank you, Arcadia. I appreciate your unique perspective, as well as your consolidated links.

[DawnM]

I understand that. I have actually visited Malaysia before.

 

I meant I can't keep up with THIS THREAD and keep checking all the conspiracy theories online.  I am a little obsessed.

 

:lol:

 

 

 

Your night is their daytime. 15 hrs ahead of PST.  Malaysia is on GMT+8

So the news updates would be in our nighttime.
 

 

[DawnM]

Another interesting theory:

 

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2014/03/a-hypothesis.html

[Berta]

A nuke heavy enough to need to be transported by a 777 would be a weight/size that would make more sense to be transported via a cargo plane.  Hijacking (or buying) a cargo plane would much simpler and would be easier to file a flight plan into a nation's airspace.  A 777 that shows up on radar with no flight number/flight plan would raise immediate concern. A 777 also requires a very long runway and the likelihood of one of that size being hidden is unlikely.

 

 

Yes, buying a plane would be easier. But, if they wanted it for a future attack I don't know that they would worry about filing a flight plan when they can fly low enough to be under the radar. I used "nukes" but any type of explosive or bio warfare could be put on a plane and crashed into a building/area.

[Berta]

I did not take offense to Heathers comment. My son lives in China and I have visited China and I can say from *my* and experience and that of my sons, that the culture absolutely is one of saving face.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yes, buying a plane would be easier. But, if they wanted it for a future attack I don't know that they would worry about filing a flight plan when they can fly low enough to be under the radar. I used "nukes" but any type of explosive or bio warfare could be put on a plane and crashed into a building/area.

 

Flying a 777 low enough to avoid radar is difficult and not something that can be done for long distances.  Flying that low also eats through fuel much faster.  Honestly, being concerned about the plane being hijacked to be used in a future attack is simply not very rational.

[Pawz4me]

Flying a 777 low enough to avoid radar is difficult and not something that can be done for long distances.  Flying that low also eats through fuel much faster.  Honestly, being concerned about the plane being hijacked to be used in a future attack is simply not very rational.

 

That's a bit harsh.

 

I'm guessing pre-9/11 many people would have thought that the idea of terrorists simultaneously hijacking multiple commercial airliners and flying them into skyscrapers wasn't a very rational thing to be concerned about.

[momto10blessings]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/12/notice-anything-strange-about-the-photos-of-the-men-who-used-stolen-passports-on-the-missing-malaysian-plane/

 

Hmmm... Odd

[Mrs Mungo]

That's a bit harsh.

 

I'm guessing pre-9/11 many people would have thought that the idea of terrorists simultaneously hijacking multiple commercial airliners and flying them into skyscrapers wasn't a very rational thing to be concerned about.

Disagree.

 

There are much easier ways to procure a plane than to hijack a passenger plane full of passengers. AQ *owns planes already*. They don't need to steal a plane for that purpose. They didn't steal planes on 9/11 to use in a later plot. What's the most likely scenario? The plane crashed into the ocean. It's not the first plane to crash into the ocean or the first to not immediately be found.

 

Now, on the other hand? The flight school instructors (more than one, according to my understanding) called the FBI because they found things suspicious enough to call the FBI, even if they didn't know they were going to fly them into buildings. FBI agents visited the various flight schools as early as 1996, through just two weeks before 9/11. There *was* reason to believe that there was a terrorist connection.

[Mrs Mungo]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/12/notice-anything-strange-about-the-photos-of-the-men-who-used-stolen-passports-on-the-missing-malaysian-plane/

 

Hmmm... Odd

It looks more like what happened is what is described:

Asmawati Ahmad, spokeswoman for the Malaysian assistant police commissioner, told Agence France-Presse that the issue occurred when someone photocopied the images. She said it “was not done with malice or to mislead†and said this was explained when the images were handed out to members of the media.

It looks like they were laid on a photocopier in a stack and the smaller photograph was in front of the larger photograph.

[MariannNOVA]

What I read is that the captain had his own Boeing 777 simulator.

 

What does it mean? He loved to fly the 777? He loved to practice flying the 777? He was an excellent pilot in the 777?

 

What does it mean? Maybe that he was an excellent pilot and that whatever happened was so catastrophic even an excellent pilot with above average experience in the 777 couldn't overcome.

I don't know if anyone else tried to answer this, but here is my explanation.

 

Years ago I worked at embry riddle aeronautical university. They had single engine flight simulators that were fun. Their large simulator was some twin engine aircraft that probably isn't even around anymore. But it had a two person cockpit, a jump seat, it was totally enclosed, and it was used for students studying for their instrument flight rating. One was required to have a certain number of simulator hours for a multi engine rating......maybe it was even a multi engine instrument flight rating....because when you were in that GAT (as it was called......general aviation trainer) all you could look at were instruments.....no dead reckoning.

 

People who were totally in love with aviation and flying, well, they would give anything to be part of a trip in the GAT. I am sure that every single one of them dreamed of owning any kind of flight simulator that they could have at home when they were finally out of school and employed.

 

While there are certainly nefarious reasons why one would have a 777 flight simulator (thinking back to the days after 9/11 I remember the reports of flight schools being told that students (who it turned out were being trained to hi jack jets) did not need to learn how to do take offs and landings......only to be able to do straight and level flight), one might have a 777 flight simulator simply because one can.

 

Sounds weak, I know, but for an aviation enthusiast and someone who was thrilled to be piloting a jumbo jet.......it could have been as simple as that.

 

HTH

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't know if anyone else tried to answer this, but here is my explanation.

 

Years ago I worked at embry riddle aeronautical university. They had single engine flight simulators that were fun. Their large simulator was some twin engine aircraft that probably isn't even around anymore. But it had a two person cockpit, a jump seat, it was totally enclosed, and it was used for students studying for their instrument flight rating. One was required to have a certain number of simulator hours for a multi engine rating......maybe it was even a multi engine instrument flight rating....because when you were in that GAT (as it was called......general aviation trainer) all you could look at were instruments.....no dead reckoning.

 

People who were totally in love with aviation and flying, well, they would give anything to be part of a trip in the GAT. I am sure that every single one of them dreamed of owning any kind of flight simulator that they could have at home when they were finally out of school and employed.

 

While there are certainly nefarious reasons why one would have a 777 flight simulator (thinking back to the days after 9/11 I remember the reports of flight schools being told that students (who it turned out were being trained to hi jack jets) did not need to learn how to do take offs and landings......only to be able to do straight and level flight), one might have a 777 flight simulator simply because one can.

 

Sounds weak, I know, but for an aviation enthusiast and someone who was thrilled to be piloting a jumbo jet.......it could have been as simple as that.

 

HTH

In this case, the pilot in question was a long time veteran (over 30 years) who made his own flight simulator. More about that here:

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1444738/web-tribute-page-lauds-mh370-captain-zaharie-ahmad-shah

[mathnerd]

nm 

 

[Pawz4me]

Sketchy details, but CNN is reporting that China says its satellite images may show the wreckage of the plane.  Apparently they've given some coordinates, and the location correlates with the plane's original flight path and with an eyewitness account of an oil rig worker who said he saw a burning plane.  Their satellite imagery shows three large objects in the water.

[Berta]

Flying a 777 low enough to avoid radar is difficult and not something that can be done for long distances.  Flying that low also eats through fuel much faster.  Honestly, being concerned about the plane being hijacked to be used in a future attack is simply not very rational.

 

Like I said, I was putting on my tinfoil hat. At this point, anything is possible.

[Mrs Mungo]

Why not just claim that it was aliens or Atlantis that captured the plane, if anything is possible? Anything may be possible, but that doesn't mean just anything is *likely*.

 

Israel shoots down *drones* that enter their airspace. But, some people think they wouldn't notice a 777, if it was repainted? People think nukes are easier to procure than a *plane*? These are not rational conclusions and a teeny tiny bit of research debunks them. There's no excuse to pretend you have no way of finding out whether or not a scenario is likely when you're arguing about it on the internet with its vast stores of knowledge from factual sources.

[unsinkable]

I think Ken Ham is responsible.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think Ken Ham is responsible.

Maybe he found a really big millstone?

[Berta]

Why not just claim that it was aliens or Atlantis that captured the plane, if anything is possible? Anything may be possible, but that doesn't mean just anything is *likely*.

 

Israel shoots down *drones* that enter their airspace. But, some people think they wouldn't notice a 777, if it was repainted? People think nukes are easier to procure than a *plane*? These are not rational conclusions and a teeny tiny bit of research debunks them. There's no excuse to pretend you have no way of finding out whether or not a scenario is likely when you're arguing about it on the internet with its vast stores of knowledge from factual sources.

 

I never said it was "likely". I said it isn't out of the realm of possibility. I also started my post with "putting on my tinfoil hat" because it isn't "likely" that it is what happened. I'm also not arguing my point, I just put it out there along with the opinions of everyone else.

[DawnM]

They found some debris around the area where the plane stopped receiving signal.    This is before the rumored turning off course.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/12/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[Guest submarines]

  

Quark is Malaysian, born and raised.

 

Speaking for myself, it is disappointing when a non-native to a culture, who lives in that culture by choice, makes acerbic comments about it that are very likely to offend the native.

 

In short, your words did offend a Malaysian. Maybe you did not intend to...but the fact is that posting unflattering comments on a culture or country (adopted ) without stopping to think of the multi-cultural ( racial, religious etc) demographic on these boards is...naive.

 

Some people choose to be offended, and that's fine. I come from a culture which is usually stereotyped in seemingly unflattering ways. Guess what? Those stereotypes are very often spot on (and a cause of laughter and mockery and acknowledgement among those who come from that very same culture), and it never occurred to me to be offended. We all know that a stereotype is a general impression, a short cut, and while it is not representative of every person in that particular culture, it usually has more truth to it than bias.

 

There was nothing inherently negative in what Heather posted.

[Colleen]

Sketchy details, but CNN is reporting that China says its satellite images may show the wreckage of the plane.  Apparently they've given some coordinates, and the location correlates with the plane's original flight path and with an eyewitness account of an oil rig worker who said he saw a burning plane.  Their satellite imagery shows three large objects in the water.

 

These images were taken on Sunday but were only today released ~ with no explanation as to the delay.  And yet the Chinese government has been lambasting Malaysia as incompetent and unwilling to release information in a timely manner.  Interesting.

[LucyStoner]

This is what I worry about. It would be so easy to land this plan elsewhere, load it with a nuke & use to to attack another country. Given the state of things in the world today, I'm amazed none of the news media has mentioned this as a possibility.

 

 

Nothing about that sounds like anything approaching my understanding of the word "easy".

 

Hijack a 777 without a single cell phone call or distress signal.

Land a 777 in secret.

Keep the plane hidden somehow for at least 4 days.

Get rid of the passengers.

Put a nuclear bomb on the plane.

Take off in 777.

Get into a targeted country's airspace undetected.

 

 

Um, without evidence it would be nothing but reckless for the media to discuss this scenario.

[MariannNOVA]

In this case, the pilot in question was a long time veteran (over 30 years) who made his own flight simulator. More about that here:

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1444738/web-tribute-page-lauds-mh370-captain-zaharie-ahmad-shah

Thank you for sharing the link. Pilots do tend to be "passionate" about flying.

 

I did know that he was a 30 year veteran......I did not know he had made the simulator himself.

 

I did not in any way mean to suggest that his reason for having a simulator was anything less than appropriate........I was pointing out my experience with flight students and their love of the simulators and that it was a perfectly reasonable explanation for a pilot to have one.

[quark]

I'm not able to let this slide...so here goes. What really gets me is that someone not with 30 or 40 years of experience living in Malaysia, but only 5 measly years, is saying these things with undeserved authority and others are probably buying it like it's the gospel truth. Question it, people. Don't just accept it. When she says "But culturally for them it is acceptable to lie rather than to tell an unpleasant truth." and "and you have Malaysia."  how do you not see that she is generalizing and spouting personal anecdotes? How does 5 years make Heather an authority on Malaysia? What Heather has experienced could be applicable almost anywhere.

 

Have you lived in Malaysia? Do you know anything about it? Because I do. And I learned this from them. When I asked questions it was explained to me this way. It is part of our cross-cultural training that the Malaysians themselves conduct. They will tell you themselves that it is true. And i have experienced it every day for nearly five years. I think I know a bit more about it than you do so unless you want to come live here and experience it for yourself, you'll just have to trust me.

 

And the bolded above. Just wow. I find it condescending. Perhaps others have thicker skin than I do. Even after having lived there for 30 years, I don't claim to be an expert on my own country. The moment you close your mind up like that you are allowing bias to control you. You think you know everything, and you stop learning. 

 

Pawz4me, I am quoting you because I respect your opinions and have followed your posts in the past.

 

Ehhh.  Non-Americans on this board bash us all the time.  You get used to it.  And sometimes -- if you can disengage from an emotional reaction -- you can see the kernel (or more) of truth in what's being said.

 

This is really not about my being a Malaysian. Yes, non Americans bash Americans all the time...but if you found cause for it, wouldn't you come to America's defense? I know I would. And I am not even American. I don't find gossipy joy in bashing up people who cannot defend themselves! If you felt something to be wrong, wouldn't you speak up? Heather finds Malaysian culture to be wrong so she spoke up. And I find her assertion to be wrong. So I am speaking up. I too have criticized my government over some of the things they have done. I am not saying that the authorities are not botching up things. And if you see my first question to Heather, you will see that I admit as much. I mean, calling a shaman and doing some ritual using coconuts? Really? I am very critical of the way they are handling it too. I'm just stumped that people are coming forward to defend Heather without even considering that there could be another side to things. Do you guys just accept things without questioning them?

 

For the record, no one is asking anyone to consider Malaysians to be perfect.  And I really wanted to bow out because this whole thread isn't about me or Heather. It's about a tragedy that perhaps could have been averted or at least investigated more thoroughly than it has been. I came back to say all this because of others who kept responding even though I said I am bowing out. Please keep an open mind about what Heather is saying.

[Arcadia]

.....

And the bolded above. Just wow. I find it condescending. Perhaps others have thicker skin than I do. Even after having lived there for 30 years, I don't claim to be an expert on my own country. The moment you close your mind up like that you are allowing bias to control you. You think you know everything, and you stop learning. 

.....

 

For the record, no one is asking anyone to consider Malaysians to be perfect.  And I really wanted to bow out because this whole thread isn't about me or Heather. It's about a tragedy that perhaps could have been averted or at least investigated more thoroughly than it has been.

 

  :grouphug:  Guess I developed thick skin from all the Chinese bashing everywhere.  There was a media report in Chinese that bash the China govt. for not using their military satellites to track the MH370.  How would the China govt. know that the plane is going to disappear :p

 

I agree it is a tragedy regardless how the media wants to spin it. Toasting you a virtual teh halia ( I used to be addicted to that).  :grouphug:

[ebunny]

Some people choose to be offended, and that's fine. I come from a culture which is usually stereotyped in seemingly unflattering ways. Guess what? Those stereotypes are very often spot on (and a cause of laughter and mockery and acknowledgement among those who come from that very same culture), and it never occurred to me to be offended. We all know that a stereotype is a general impression, a short cut, and while it is not representative of every person in that particular culture, it usually has more truth to it than bias.

 

There was nothing inherently negative in what Heather posted.

Since you quoted me and chose to respond to me...and since I have found your posts rational and open minded, in the past...

 

I am amazed that anyone living in a place only for 5 years is implied to be an authority on it and is encouraged on her so called honest assessment.

 

What I see is an inaccurate understanding and low tolerance of a culture. In my world, it is called a prejudice and is called out as such...not a stereotype.

 

And what is the meaning of 'not inherently negative' anyway? Words have been, and are always used with specific meaning. One meaning which the speaker intends for them to have...and the other which the listener will end up with. Of course, you or I cannot control how the listener will assign meaning.

 

But, being in the domain of education and on this site, which is a classical education site, and which is based on critical thinking and analysis, and most of all -being sensitive and thoughtful, The least a poster can do is think of the consequences of her post that is highly likely to hurt other people.

 

Claiming that words are not 'inherently negative' is a smoke screen.

 

(For instance - i can claim that I am not being inherently harsh in this post..but if you choose to think I am harsh..well...)

 

 

ETA: let's take any further conversation regarding this matter over PMs....Bowing out from this thread.

[Mrs Mungo]

Thank you for sharing the link. Pilots do tend to be "passionate" about flying.

 

I did know that he was a 30 year veteran......I did not know he had made the simulator himself.

 

I did not in any way mean to suggest that his reason for having a simulator was anything less than appropriate........I was pointing out my experience with flight students and their love of the simulators and that it was a perfectly reasonable explanation for a pilot to have one.

Oh, I agree with you. I was just adding to what you had said. It was other people who found it wrong/strange/suspicious that he had any kind of set-up like that.

[unsinkable]

Oh, I agree with you. I was just adding to what you had said. It was other people who found it wrong/strange/suspicious that he had any kind of set-up like that.

I don't think anyone found it wrong/strange/suspicious, unless I missed a post.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

That's a bit harsh.

 

I'm guessing pre-9/11 many people would have thought that the idea of terrorists simultaneously hijacking multiple commercial airliners and flying them into skyscrapers wasn't a very rational thing to be concerned about.

 

Actually, the possibility of something like happening had been talked about for years.  There is a significant difference between hijacking a plane and using it as a weapon before anyone has time to react versus hijacking a passenger plane and planning on using it later in another attack.  Again, there are much simpler ways to acquire a plane with much less risk and with a better chance of success.

[MariannNOVA]

Oh, I agree with you. I was just adding to what you had said. It was other people who found it wrong/strange/suspicious that he had any kind of set-up like that.

 

on the same topic, sort of, the story that you linked was excellent.  it really put a face and a person on this.  it also makes one so sad for this man and his family.

[Heather in Neverland]

I'm not able to let this slide...so here goes. What really gets me is that someone not with 30 or 40 years of experience living in Malaysia, but only 5 measly years, is saying these things with undeserved authority and others are probably buying it like it's the gospel truth. Question it, people. Don't just accept it. When she says "But culturally for them it is acceptable to lie rather than to tell an unpleasant truth." and "and you have Malaysia."  how do you not see that she is generalizing and spouting personal anecdotes? How does 5 years make Heather an authority on Malaysia? What Heather has experienced could be applicable almost anywhere. And the bolded above. Just wow. I find it condescending. Perhaps others have thicker skin than I do. Even after having lived there for 30 years, I don't claim to be an expert on my own country. The moment you close your mind up like that you are allowing bias to control you. You think you know everything, and you stop learning. 

 

I had no idea you are from Malaysia. If you are, great, you should understand what I am talking about then. The question is not who has "authority" to speak about something. As an American I am free to speak my mind. I am free to make observations especially if those observations are based on 5 years living inside the culture. It's not like this is a vacation for me. It's not like I don't know any Malaysians. I have two that live in my home. I work with about 80 Malaysians. My church is entirely Malaysian except for my family. Every restaurant and business I frequent is owned and run by Malaysians. One third of the students in my school are Malaysian. I am surrounded by Malaysians. So while I may not have met every Malaysian there is, I know enough to see a pattern of behavior...a pattern CONFIRMED by Malaysians themselves during my training. And if you are honestly saying that there is no truth to my statements then YOU are not being truthful. Google "culture of saving face" and see what you find. It's not like I made this all up.

 

This is really not about my being a Malaysian. Yes, non Americans bash Americans all the time...but if you found cause for it, wouldn't you come to America's defense? I know I would. And I am not even American. I don't find gossipy joy in bashing up people who cannot defend themselves! If you felt something to be wrong, wouldn't you speak up? Heather finds Malaysian culture to be wrong so she spoke up. Nope, I never said Malaysian culture is wrong. I just pointed out what is. And I am not gossiping or finding joy in gossip. I find no joy in any of this that is going on. I am here in the middle of it. I see what it is doing to everyone. There is no joy and I don't appreciate the accusation.

 

And I find her assertion to be wrong. So I am speaking up. I too have criticized my government over some of the things they have done. I am not saying that the authorities are not botching up things. And if you see my first question to Heather, you will see that I admit as much. I mean, calling a shaman and doing some ritual using coconuts? Really? I am very critical of the way they are handling it too. I'm just stumped that people are coming forward to defend Heather without even considering that there could be another side to things. Do you guys just accept things without questioning them?

 

And what other side is that? That the authorities are NOT botching this? That Malaysians do NOT have a culture of saving face that allows them to say things that are not true or leave out information in order to avoid confrontation or embarassment? That Malaysia is NOT plagued with corruption? Which other side are you referring to? Just because I am able to see these things and point them out does not mean I hate the cuture or that I think Americans are better, etc.

 

We are both imperfect countries and we should be able to talk about it.

 

 

[[email protected]]

PEOPLE:

 

This is hard.

 

Please remember to be kind and graceful. Not to make blanket statements. Not to attack. To stay on issue.

 

It is our constant effort to make this forum a place where disagreement can happen with civility and grace.

 

Help us out with this.

 

SWB, logging in as Moderator because everyone else is off tonight.

[Lanny]

They are reporting that the USA believes the plane flew for about four (4) hours after it was at it's last confirmed location, based on data sent by the engines on the aircraft.

On this URL: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/13/chinese-government-website-says-it-has-images-suspected-plane-debris/

 

Meanwhile, The Wall Street Journal reported early Thursday that U.S. aviation investigators and national security officials believe the plane flew for about four hours past the time it reached its last confirmed location, according to data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing 777's engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program. 

U.S. counterterrorism officials are exploring the possibility that a pilot or someone else on board the plane may have diverted it toward an undisclosed location after turning off the plane's transponders to avoid radar detection, a person tracking the investigation told The Journal.

 

ETA: I was not able to get the link to the Wall Street Journal article to work. This is the URL:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282.html%3Fmod%3DWSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories

 

The actual duration of that flight was approximately five (5) hours, based on automatic reports sent by the engines of the aircraft. 

[Lanny]

I actually think it's kinda tacky to be 'theorising'.

 

It's one thing to follow and share news as it comes to hand. Entertaining ourselves with 'theories' is a whole different kettle of fish.

 

If people feel moved by the fate of the unfortunate passengers and airline staff, maybe praying, lighting a candle, meditating on loving-kindness for the family members and friends might be the way to go.

 

This theory stuff feels disrespectful to me.

 

Just my opinion. YMMV.

@Sadie: I hope you will read the article on the Wall Street Journal web site. I just added the correct link to my post.  The data reported is from the engines of the aircraft. The USA apparently has information that the aircraft may have been hijacked, by unknown persons, for unknown reasons. That is based upon reporting by the Rolls Royce engines of the aircraft. The total flight duration was approximately five (5) hours.  Please read the article on the Wall Street Journal web site.

 

ETA: Here is the link to the Wall Street Journal article:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282.html%3Fmod%3DWSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories