S/o Duggar thread...

[PeterPan]

Could you do me a little favor and explain what people mean by dominionist?

xxx have been accused of being dominionist. 

 

[FaithManor]

Could you do me a little favor and explain what people mean by dominionist?

Dominionism is a unique American worldview that is extreme Calvinism...something that most Calvinists would be shocked by, in which the concept is that God actually ordained the United States to be a theocracy and that this has been lost through secularization and sin. History is reinterpreted to strengthen founding fathers as all Calvinist and with the inten that there would not be freedom to practice any religion, but would institute Christianity for all. The belief is that this will be accomplished by raising up the "army of God" through having large families in which the children are groomed to be "arrows" that pierce the godless culture with their righteous living...the families seem to be "set apart" and the only way that I can think to describe it is to say to take a Puritan and put him in modern clothing. Books written revisionists, also known as reconstructions, instructbelievers in quivering as well as the husband being the high priest of the wife and children, also "Lord of the family", raising children with strict puritan like methods, restrict female right and preach that women should not vote, blame women's rights, birth control, secular education, and the civil rights movement for all the woes in the society. Their first main political candidate, Howard Phillips the father of Doug Phillips,  advocated a return to Levitical law and favored bringing back signings and hangings for most felonies and especially for adulterers s well as L.B.G.T. citizens and rebellious teenagers. The belief is that by forcing OT styled theocracy on the nation, they can bring the kingdom of God to earth and all of this is accomplished through reclaiming the family through population by producing a new generation committed to these values and in which the men will dominate their families and take over the government to snuff out any rebellion against God. Howard Phillips ran for president more than once and the constitution party continues pushing for these reforms. The Family Research Council who recently employed one of the Duggar boys is heavily influenced by this philosophy and one item on the agenda is to make abortions/ d&c illegal even to save the life of the mother. Another item is to eventually have all forms of birth control banned. Vision Forum, Gothard, ATI, Doug Wilson, and others of this belief system have supported dominions/reconstructions   

[FaithManor]

Sorry about stopping kid sentence, my auto correct was going crazy and then the dog bumped my arm. I meant to say supported dominions/reconstructionis t candidates. Yes, I am prepared to scream auto correct because it won't let me put a "t" on that word.

 

Also, they seek to repeal women's suffrage but of course only after the women have helped them take back the nation.

[Guest]

Sorry about stopping kid sentence, my auto correct was going crazy and then the dog bumped my arm. I meant to say supported dominions/reconstructionis t candidates. Yes, I am prepared to scream auto correct because it won't let me put a "t" on that word.

 

Also, they seek to repeal women's suffrage but of course only after the women have helped them take back the nation.

Pardon me. I seem to have misplaced my jaw.

 

Seriously, i have known about some of these things, but boy, only the tippety-top of the iceberg! Yowsers.

[alef]

Dominionism is a unique American worldview that is extreme Calvinism...something that most Calvinists would be shocked by, in which the concept is that God actually ordained the United States to be a theocracy and that this has been lost through secularization and sin. History is reinterpreted to strengthen founding fathers as all Calvinist and with the inten that there would not be freedom to practice any religion, but would institute Christianity for all. The belief is that this will be accomplished by raising up the "army of God" through having large families in which the children are groomed to be "arrows" that pierce the godless culture with their righteous living...the families seem to be "set apart" and the only way that I can think to describe it is to say to take a Puritan and put him in modern clothing. Books written revisionists, also known as reconstructions, instructbelievers in quivering as well as the husband being the high priest of the wife and children, also "Lord of the family", raising children with strict puritan like methods, restrict female right and preach that women should not vote, blame women's rights, birth control, secular education, and the civil rights movement for all the woes in the society. Their first main political candidate, Howard Phillips the father of Doug Phillips, advocated a return to Levitical law and favored bringing back signings and hangings for most felonies and especially for adulterers s well as L.B.G.T. citizens and rebellious teenagers. The belief is that by forcing OT styled theocracy on the nation, they can bring the kingdom of God to earth and all of this is accomplished through reclaiming the family through population by producing a new generation committed to these values and in which the men will dominate their families and take over the government to snuff out any rebellion against God. Howard Phillips ran for president more than once and the constitution party continues pushing for these reforms. The Family Research Council who recently employed one of the Duggar boys is heavily influenced by this philosophy and one item on the agenda is to make abortions/ d&c illegal even to save the life of the mother. Another item is to eventually have all forms of birth control banned. Vision Forum, Gothard, ATI, Doug Wilson, and others of this belief system have supported dominions/reconstructions

Is there somewhere we can find these ideas "from the horse's mouth?"

[alef]

Dominionism is a unique American worldview that is extreme Calvinism...something that most Calvinists would be shocked by, in which the concept is that God actually ordained the United States to be a theocracy and that this has been lost through secularization and sin. History is reinterpreted to strengthen founding fathers as all Calvinist and with the inten that there would not be freedom to practice any religion, but would institute Christianity for all. The belief is that this will be accomplished by raising up the "army of God" through having large families in which the children are groomed to be "arrows" that pierce the godless culture with their righteous living...the families seem to be "set apart" and the only way that I can think to describe it is to say to take a Puritan and put him in modern clothing. Books written revisionists, also known as reconstructions, instructbelievers in quivering as well as the husband being the high priest of the wife and children, also "Lord of the family", raising children with strict puritan like methods, restrict female right and preach that women should not vote, blame women's rights, birth control, secular education, and the civil rights movement for all the woes in the society. Their first main political candidate, Howard Phillips the father of Doug Phillips, advocated a return to Levitical law and favored bringing back signings and hangings for most felonies and especially for adulterers s well as L.B.G.T. citizens and rebellious teenagers. The belief is that by forcing OT styled theocracy on the nation, they can bring the kingdom of God to earth and all of this is accomplished through reclaiming the family through population by producing a new generation committed to these values and in which the men will dominate their families and take over the government to snuff out any rebellion against God. Howard Phillips ran for president more than once and the constitution party continues pushing for these reforms. The Family Research Council who recently employed one of the Duggar boys is heavily influenced by this philosophy and one item on the agenda is to make abortions/ d&c illegal even to save the life of the mother. Another item is to eventually have all forms of birth control banned. Vision Forum, Gothard, ATI, Doug Wilson, and others of this belief system have supported dominions/reconstructions

Is there somewhere we can find these ideas "from the horse's mouth?"

[mytwomonkeys]

Could you do me a little favor and explain what people mean by dominionist?

Thanks for asking. I thought I was the only one not understanding that term :)

[73349]

Is there somewhere we can find these ideas "from the horse's mouth?"

 

Here's a start:

http://iblp.org/questions/how-can-i-meet-my-husbands-basic-needs

 

http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/ground-level-tactics-of-christian-resistance.html

 

http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/bitterness-and-the-unsubmissive-wife.html

[mommaduck]

So, if HSLDA advocates ATI(. ....and I am sure it does since the one and only time I attended a convention in my state...LEAH is totally ATI, which i did not know ....Came home from the convention, which I thought would fire me up, depressed for months! I came home feeling inadequate and doomed to hell....no joke!). HSLDA and the ATI people were all buddy, buddy....

 

 

Does that mean Marcia Somerville of Tapestry of Grace is also ATI since her husband is one of their attorneys? I use more and

 

 

This is really deeper than I had ever imagined. I am really feeling like a big fat dumb@ss.

 

Ick, ick! Ick!

 

No, it does not. There a huge chance they are not ATI. It doesn't mean that some of the same principles aren't used within their churches or the HSLDA system, but it doesn't mean they are ATI. I'm not really certain where the Somervilles are at on things right now. Their church came under some major issues. They may or may not have left (I remember there was a large thread on it at one time and it was a concern to be irt using her materials again). It would be nice if authors were more open about their associations. I know MFW authors didn't like telling people which denomination they were associated with (the husband actually said this to me on the phone) because they want their materials to be judged on their own merit (which I can understand...to a point).

[mommaduck]

I don't think TOG is particularly dominionist (though I'm not exactly clear on what that means) nor patriarchal. It is reformed. I have issues with TOG at the moment because they have chosen a new book for their three week study on Mormonism and it is highly biased and inaccurate. There are plenty of legitimate LDS doctrines to discuss if you want to do a unit on what Mormons believe compared to what Protestant Christians believe, it drives me bonkers when people start telling me I believe things I don't and my church teaches things it doesn't...for now I am giving Marcia and her crew the benefit of the doubt and assuming they just took the book's claims to accuracy at face value and are not intentionally teaching falsehoods.

 

As for ATI-- nah, Marcia Sommerville's hair is way to short for her to be associated with them :)

 

Curious, what book is she using and what book would you recommend in it's place? Do you have a book that would contrast old teachings with current, the changes and why?

[mommaduck]

Is there somewhere we can find these ideas "from the horse's mouth?"

 

It'll take some hunting. It's been awhile.

[mommaduck]

Here's a start:

http://iblp.org/questions/how-can-i-meet-my-husbands-basic-needs

 

http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/ground-level-tactics-of-christian-resistance.html

 

http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/bitterness-and-the-unsubmissive-wife.html

 

Looks like I posted too late LOL!

[FaithManor]

http://www.gotquestions.org/dominion-theology.html This may a better synopsis of the philosophy.

 

And yes, you could get it from the horse's mouth, unfortunately, most of it is in books you'd need to order so it depends on how much money you want to spend.

 

Here's the Wiki article on Howard Phillip's party:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Party_(United_States)

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/03/christian-reconstructionism-gays-and-stoning.html This article quotes Rushdoony and other reconstructionists.

 

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/cor/dominion.htm

 

You could purchase a number of books -  Dominion Theology, Blessing or Curse by H Wayne House has lots of foot notes documenting the preaching and teaching of the prominent preachers of this worldview. Paradise Restored: A Biblical Theology of Dominion by David Chilton. The Bad People Stole My God by Doug Phillips. Numerous writings by Doug Wilson, I'm not sure where to start, he has courtship manuals, childrearing manuals, you name it plus some books on Classical Education, but the truly scary stuff has been in his sermons...I'm not certain if there is a published set of those, however Patheos and Wartburg Watch may have some of the highlights on their website if you search it.

 

Look for any reports on the Ligonier No Compromises National Conference 2013 with Sproul Jr. Alistair Begg, and Steven Lawson...there is a DVD set if memory serves.

 

Christian Reconstructionism by Gary North and Gary DeMar

 

Textbook for Advanced Institutes in Basic Life Principles by Bill Gothard.

 

If you are willing to join IBLP, you can get all of the past newsletters yourself. You'll be surrendering a tidy sum of money to Gothard's organization in order to do this, and you may not be allowed to join without attending a conference first.

 

A Matter of Basic Principles by Don Veinot

 

Check out Midwest Christian Outreach...they do A LOT with Christian Apologetics and routinely review the works of fringe religious groups including Vision Forum, IBLP, and Ligonier Ministries

 

I need to eat dinner and spend some time with my family. I'll try to see if I can remember more later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[momacacia]

Bill Gothard---see www.recoveringgrace.org

[FaithManor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Wilson_(theologian)

 

synopsis of his publication on slavery

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/april/24.42.html?start=2

 

A few words from Doug Wilson’s mouth about favoring the exile of homosexuals, stoning for adultery on certain circumstances, etc. and says he won’t apologize for the Bible.

 

A review of the recent movie produced by Vision Forum in 2013 before they admitted to Doug’s indiscretions. This review is by Kate Botkin, a niece of Geoffrey Botkin and one who does not follow her uncle’s way.

http://kbotkin.com/2014/01/16/alone-yet-not-alone-in-a-sea-of-dominionism/

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/tag/christian-reconstructionism/

Review of the History Mega Conference

 

This one is a real eye-opener:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2011/09/01/what-dominionists-would-do-with-gays-disobedient-children-sabbath-breakers-etc-part-3/ (review of God is Just: A Defense of the Old Testament as the Basis of Civil Law – a book that truly scares the bejeebies out of me!!!!!)

 

I will try to post more tomorrow if I have time.

 

Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips, Geoffrey Botkin, etc. have all been BIG speakers at homeschool conventions all over the US. Gothard’s IBLP has had booths selling his materials in many vending halls.

 

Oh, and if want to read Gothard’s textbook, there is a used one on Amazon for $9.00 and change. It is very hard to get his materials without paying to attend a conference or joining his organization. He does not sell “open air†so to speak and he does limit the materials that are for sale at homeschool conferences…usually limited introductions to the material or “Character Sketches†only because he really likes to circle the wagons and keep it a bit “tight to the hip†so to speak.

 

 

 

[alef]

Curious, what book is she using and what book would you recommend in it's place? Do you have a book that would contrast old teachings with current, the changes and why?

TOG assigns a book called Mormonism Unmasked, I do not recommend it if you want an accurate picture of LDS beliefs (some of the things the book claims are Mormon beliefs are things no Mormon of my acquaintance believes and are certainly not taught as official doctrine of the LDS church). I'm not sure what would be an acceptable recommendation--perhaps this book http://www.amazon.com/How-Wide-Divide-Evangelical-Conversation/dp/0830819916/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1392683071&sr=8-1 which I have not read but at least it lets an actual believing member of the LDS church discuss his beliefs.

 

If you want to understand basic LDS doctrines as taught within the church, this is a good resource https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng it is a book used to teach adult Sunday school classes to church members.

 

Regarding past versus present teachings, I guess it depends on what exactly you mean. Some past practices and teachings that have changed significantly over the years include the practice of polygamy and the exclusion of people of African descent from priesthood ordination. These practices have been changed in accordance with the LDS belief in ongoing revelation. Official church statements about these practices and their revision can be found here http://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-and-families-in-early-utah?lang=eng and here http://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

 

Additionally, critics of the LDS church often use quotes from past LDS authorities, particularly from the 19th century, to make claims about Mormon beliefs and doctrine. Unfortunately this practice ignores the realities of how doctrine is established and formalized within the LDS church. The vast majority of sermons or pronouncements made by LDS leaders past or present are not official doctrine. Particularly in the early days of the church there was a great deal of speculation and extrapolation that went far beyond the pall of what the LDS church embraces as official doctrine. The fact that Brigham Young or someone else said x at some point does not mean x is official doctrine of the LDS church. Many of these misconceptions are addressed unofficially by Mormon apologists here http://www.fairmormon.org

 

One of the difficulties in presenting LDS history and beliefs fairly is that there are few if any truly unbiased sources. You can find many books and articles written by believing Mormons, and many written by Mormon critics. There is almost nothing written from a disinterested, scholarly position. You might imagine a similar problem could have faced a person in the second century AD who wanted to find an unbiased source of information about Christianity; they would encounter both fervent believers and venomous detractors, but few sources that could provide an unbiased perspective.

[OnTheBrink]

I do not believe TOG is the least bit ATI. I've used their materials in the past and I have a very good friend who did, at one time, get sucked into the ATI thing and is now so skeeved by anything that remotely hints at ATI that she literally screams. She uses TOG and loves it. So there's my anecdotal evidence that TOG is not ATI-ish. LOL

 

ETA: TOG is more about learning concepts than using specific books. Meaning, you can substitute a book for one you don't like.  They do have book lists, and even alternative book lists, but I'm pretty sure you can choose whatever book you'd prefer if you wanted to with little hindrance. 

 

[mommaduck]

This is what I found still on my shelf of questionable materials.

Left: Gothard Materials (Basic Seminar Red Book and Character Sketches aimed at "Building a Character Family" from "International Association of Character Cities" (Gothard's infiltration into city leadership)

Middle: Sproul, Jr and Matter of Basic Principles

Right: Douglas and Nancy Wilson

[HRAAB]

Faith -- Is there a difference between Dominionists and Reconstructionists?  Part of your description reminds me of my bil and his wife.  They believe America was founded to be God's Biblical Christian nation, the government should Christian, and that the founding fathers were 'their' type of Christian.  They support criminalizing homosexuality and abortion in all circumstances and limiting the availability of divorce.  They're okay with contraception and education for women.  His wife is the principal of a very small, ultra conservative, Christian school.  His dd has mentioned that the KKK wasn't all bad and were basically a moral group plus other things that make me cringe in horror.  Their not as crazy as Doug Phillips/Doug Wilson and others, but there are some definitely similarities.

 

I'm wondering if some of the dominionist theology has crept into typical American evangelical Christianity?  Maybe it's more widespread than I thought?  I like to think of it as a very, very small subset of Christianity with most of them present in homeschooling communities.  The thinking is frightening.  

[mommaduck]

Dominion Theology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology

 

Christian Reconstructionism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism

[mommaduck]

Faith -- Is there a difference between Dominionists and Reconstructionists?  Part of your description reminds me of my bil and his wife.  They believe America was founded to be God's Biblical Christian nation, the government should Christian, and that the founding fathers were 'their' type of Christian.  They support criminalizing homosexuality and abortion in all circumstances and limiting the availability of divorce.  They're okay with contraception and education for women.  His wife is the principal of a very small, ultra conservative, Christian school.  His dd has mentioned that the KKK wasn't all bad and were basically a moral group plus other things that make me cringe in horror.  Their not as crazy as Doug Phillips/Doug Wilson and others, but there are some definitely similarities.

 

I'm wondering if some of the dominionist theology has crept into typical American evangelical Christianity?  Maybe it's more widespread than I thought?  I like to think of it as a very, very small subset of Christianity with most of them present in homeschooling communities.  The thinking is frightening.  

 

That's what my stepdad told me when I was a kid (I didn't believe him). 

[jewellsmommy]

I had never heard of ATI or Gothard or Pearls or Rubies or any of these other things til on these boards. I have never been one to read books on parenting, disciplining, Christian living techniques, or any of this sort of stuff other than Bible Studies. My church has never promoted specific authors or teachings or movements. Maybe, one exception, we did 40 days of purpose as a church wide thing. That is it. I also don't use character training curriculum or such things. We do use devotionals though.

 

I am a Christian attending a Southern Baptist church. I have recently discovered that I lean more toward Arminianism than Calvanism.

 

So all this being said, I have always judged each book, curriculum, or resource on its own merit according to its contents. It has not occurred to me to look for connections or research which denomination a writer might be.

 

I use TOG, but if I don't like a resource we use a different one. If I don't like a sentiment in an otherwise acceptable resource then I don't read that part or we talk about why I don't agree with it etc. Now this will be more difficult as my dc become more independent with their work and I can totally understand wanting to vet your curriculum. But i still feel that I can do this by looking at each resource as its own source.

 

I once had a friend give me a book for dd. I think it was Mennonite, and it was a non-fiction, life/character training sort of thing. A pretty brief glance was all I needed to know that it was destined for the trash. There was a section about making sure your appearance as a young woman was 'saying' what you wanted it too and not sending mixed messages or some such nonsense. That was all I needed to know.

 

I get what people are saying, but I wouldn't go into a panic about having to purge everything. Definitely be active in showing your dc how to question ideas, look for motivations, and be sure of their own belief system. Otherwise wouldn't we be just as bad as the extreme religious/conservative people who get judged harshly for being so super restrictive as to not let any ideas into their lives/homes that would require any thought or discerning mind, you know, the type of people that are scared of every thought not exactly like their own teaching/doctrine/dogma?

[Mommyfaithe]

Pardon me. I seem to have misplaced my jaw.

 

Seriously, i have known about some of these things, but boy, only the tippety-top of the iceberg! Yowsers.

You and me....we better get a jaw sweeper upper.

[Mommyfaithe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Wilson_(theologian)

 

synopsis of his publication on slavery

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/april/24.42.html?start=2

 

A few words from Doug Wilson’s mouth about favoring the exile of homosexuals, stoning for adultery on certain circumstances, etc. and says he won’t apologize for the Bible.

 

A review of the recent movie produced by Vision Forum in 2013 before they admitted to Doug’s indiscretions. This review is by Kate Botkin, a niece of Geoffrey Botkin and one who does not follow her uncle’s way.

http://kbotkin.com/2014/01/16/alone-yet-not-alone-in-a-sea-of-dominionism/

 

http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/tag/christian-reconstructionism/

Review of the History Mega Conference

 

This one is a real eye-opener:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2011/09/01/what-dominionists-would-do-with-gays-disobedient-children-sabbath-breakers-etc-part-3/ (review of God is Just: A Defense of the Old Testament as the Basis of Civil Law – a book that truly scares the bejeebies out of me!!!!!)

 

I will try to post more tomorrow if I have time.

 

Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips, Geoffrey Botkin, etc. have all been BIG speakers at homeschool conventions all over the US. Gothard’s IBLP has had booths selling his materials in many vending halls.

 

Oh, and if want to read Gothard’s textbook, there is a used one on Amazon for $9.00 and change. It is very hard to get his materials without paying to attend a conference or joining his organization. He does not sell “open air†so to speak and he does limit the materials that are for sale at homeschool conferences…usually limited introductions to the material or “Character Sketches†only because he really likes to circle the wagons and keep it a bit “tight to the hip†so to speak.

Thank you so much Faithmanor for all this info! See, this is what really gets my knickers in a twist!!! The secrecy of materials...the hiding, the circle speech. If you believe something...for God's sake, come out and say it and take your lumps if you are wrong, mother grow from it.. All the secret books and oh man, do they have a hand shake??

[mommaduck]

Thank you so much Faithmanor for all this info! See, this is what really gets my knickers in a twist!!! The secrecy of materials...the hiding, the circle speech. If you believe something...for God's sake, come out and say it and take your lumps if you are wrong, mother grow from it.. All the secret books and oh man, do they have a hand shake??

 

But then you can't make money and suck people in through a captive audience (aka, they paid money to see you, they won't leave vs checking out materials at home). Yep, the people in ATI can "get in trouble" for letting outsiders see materials they are "qualified" to see. Some of the excuse is "they aren't ready...they have to go through it all step by step, in order, or they won't understand it without the foundation being laid first."

[Mommyfaithe]

I had never heard of ATI or Gothard or Pearls or Rubies or any of these other things til on these boards. I have never been one to read books on parenting, disciplining, Christian living techniques, or any of this sort of stuff other than Bible Studies. My church has never promoted specific authors or teachings or movements. Maybe, one exception, we did 40 days of purpose as a church wide thing. That is it. I also don't use character training curriculum or such things. We do use devotionals though.

 

I am a Christian attending a Southern Baptist church. I have recently discovered that I lean more toward Arminianism than Calvanism.

 

So all this being said, I have always judged each book, curriculum, or resource on its own merit according to its contents. It has not occurred to me to look for connections or research which denomination a writer might be.

 

I use TOG, but if I don't like a resource we use a different one. If I don't like a sentiment in an otherwise acceptable resource then I don't read that part or we talk about why I don't agree with it etc. Now this will be more difficult as my dc become more independent with their work and I can totally understand wanting to vet your curriculum. But i still feel that I can do this by looking at each resource as its own source.

 

I once had a friend give me a book for dd. I think it was Mennonite, and it was a non-fiction, life/character training sort of thing. A pretty brief glance was all I needed to know that it was destined for the trash. There was a section about making sure your appearance as a young woman was 'saying' what you wanted it too and not sending mixed messages or some such nonsense. That was all I needed to know.

 

I get what people are saying, but I wouldn't go into a panic about having to purge everything. Definitely be active in showing your dc how to question ideas, look for motivations, and be sure of their own belief system. Otherwise wouldn't we be just as bad as the extreme religious/conservative people who get judged harshly for being so super restrictive as to not let any ideas into their lives/homes that would require any thought or discerning mind, you know, the type of people that are scared of every thought not exactly like their own teaching/doctrine/dogma?

Well, yes and no. The issue is the subversive material that pervades the movement led by Gothard. Notice, if you will...not ONE SINGLE DEFENDER in either thread. Of his materials, his mission, his goals in " ministering" to the Christian community. Where are the ATI people in this thread, or the Duggar thread, or quite frankly, any thread where he is brought up? Why do the people who are affiliated with his " ministry" ( and I use that term lightly) never come out and just say they are part of his ministry...instead of saying they follow "certain principles"? I know there are so many who follow this dreck and push these materials, yet...where are they to say Hey, Faithe....you got this all wrong.

 

I am not big on book banning, or book burning....though a few of mine have found their way to the wood stove ( Pearls books went in along with my copy of a magickal formulary....I did not feel comfortable donating those along with the boxes of homeschooling books we were finished with).

 

I am not panicking at all....I just like to know what and whom I am dealing with...it helps me teach my material! I use many older and archaic books....I know I need to pre read them and feel out the world view....and then approach the book with my kids with a critical eye. Why would I ever be LESS careful with history or Bible studies than I would choosing a math curriculum....and don't even get me started on science! Lol!!!

 

It scares the freaking dickens out of me how close we were to subjecting our kids to this brainwashing ickyness!! My kids received enough bullying at the hands of the "perfect darlings" to never fall for that crud, and like I said I want to make sure not a dime of my money goes anywhere near any of these people. They are NOT harmless!

[Mommyfaithe]

But then you can't make money and suck people in through a captive audience (aka, they paid money to see you, they won't leave vs checking out materials at home). Yep, the people in ATI can "get in trouble" for letting outsiders see materials they are "qualified" to see. Some of the excuse is "they aren't ready...they have to go through it all step by step, in order, or they won't understand it without the foundation being laid first."

Barf! ( wish I could use the emoticons on my iPad! )

[Entropymama]

Ok, I'm really going to step in it here and say that I loved Vision Forum before they, you know, went down in flames. My kids love the Jonathan Park audios and we have some hymn cds that teach you to sing in parts. And potato guns! They're fabulous.

 

Admittedly some of the Jonathan Park gets a little off but we just talk about it. There was one segment where they were supporting girls not going to college and I just told my girls, "You're going to college." They were like, "We know." No big deal. I actually felt like one of their segments was very respectful to evolutionary scientists (they had a debate or something) not that I want to open THAT can of worms. We use those and we use materials from other, very different sources. 

 

I'm pretty sure I have a grammar book somewhere here by the Pearls. Someone gave it to me. It's a little weak on actual grammar but there was nothing sinister about it. 

 

My point is that you've just got to pick and choose. Like someone else already said, I don't think my boy's potato guns or our hymn cd brought evil woman enslaving mojo into our home. 

 

Besides, I have a pixie cut. They wouldn't take me if I wanted to get in. :)

[lea_lpz]

I finally got my hands on a copy if the Prairie Primer which was a strong contender for 3rd grade with dd. Well, as I was flipping through it and I read the "Bible" activity section and was seeing lots if scripture I knew I would not be able to teach my kids because it didn't fit our values, but some general ones I thought I could work with. We are Christians, but don't follow a patriarchal life style nor do the families I know. Then I came across one "Character" lesson where she directly quotes Bill Gothard about an umbrella of protection for women in children when mom is under the authority if dad and the children under their parents, complete with illustrations.

 

I am really disappointed because in all the inquiries I made about it to other hs moms I know in person and asked online on wtm / FBI pages I joined / mfw board (we use this currently), the fact the author had this world view was never mentioned at all!

 

I am kind of struggling with what to do. A lot of the stuff in there is really great and certainly there is enough to pick and pull from that we never have to do any of the Bible / Character content, and I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water but at the se time, I don't want to knowingly support that type of world view or let my kids think that's what we believe. It's unlikely at the ages my kids would use PP as a curriculum (6&8) they would read the Manuel but I just think what if they do?

[Entropymama]

I finally got my hands on a copy if the Prairie Primer which was a strong contender for 3rd grade with dd. Well, as I was flipping through it and I read the "Bible" activity section and was seeing lots if scripture I knew I would not be able to teach my kids because it didn't fit our values, but some general ones I thought I could work with. We are Christians, but don't follow a patriarchal life style nor do the families I know. Then I came across one "Character" lesson where she directly quotes Bill Gothard about an umbrella of protection for women in children when mom is under the authority if dad and the children under their parents, complete with illustrations.

 

I am really disappointed because in all the inquiries I made about it to other hs moms I know in person and asked online on wtm / FBI pages I joined / mfw board (we use this currently), the fact the author had this world view was never mentioned at all!

 

I am kind of struggling with what to do. A lot of the stuff in there is really great and certainly there is enough to pick and pull from that we never have to do any of the Bible / Character content, and I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water but at the se time, I don't want to knowingly support that type of world view or let my kids think that's what we believe. It's unlikely at the ages my kids would use PP as a curriculum (6&8) they would read the Manuel but I just think what if they do?

 

See, for me this is a non-issue. If I like the curriculum I use it. We might skip that part, or I would explain to the kids that while some people feel this way, we don't and here's why. I've got no beef with my kids knowing about other people's value systems, even if some of them are weird.

 

FWIW, we're not patriarchal at all but I wouldn't really object to the umbrella thing, I'd just explain it differently. Dad has a responsibility to take care of his family and love them. Mom has a responsibility to take care of and nurture the kids. Kids need to obey their parents. I don't think it has to mean mom does whatever dad says and keeps her mouth shut. 

[FO4UR]

I finally got my hands on a copy if the Prairie Primer which was a strong contender for 3rd grade with dd. Well, as I was flipping through it and I read the "Bible" activity section and was seeing lots if scripture I knew I would not be able to teach my kids because it didn't fit our values, but some general ones I thought I could work with. We are Christians, but don't follow a patriarchal life style nor do the families I know. Then I came across one "Character" lesson where she directly quotes Bill Gothard about an umbrella of protection for women in children when mom is under the authority if dad and the children under their parents, complete with illustrations.

 

I am really disappointed because in all the inquiries I made about it to other hs moms I know in person and asked online on wtm / FBI pages I joined / mfw board (we use this currently), the fact the author had this world view was never mentioned at all!

 

I am kind of struggling with what to do. A lot of the stuff in there is really great and certainly there is enough to pick and pull from that we never have to do any of the Bible / Character content, and I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water but at the se time, I don't want to knowingly support that type of world view or let my kids think that's what we believe. It's unlikely at the ages my kids would use PP as a curriculum (6&8) they would read the Manuel but I just think what if they do?

 

 

 

Thanks for posting that.  You just answered one of my questions, and saved me a bunch of time/money.

[Renaissance Mom]

I can't comment on most of this thread, but I can verify that all of the Somerville's (Tapestry of Grace) daughters have college educations. Marcia herself has a degree and is usually the headline speaker of the two. They are genuinely nice people with servant hearts. They have a clear statement of faith on their website. They don't try to hide the fact that they personally are Reformed. They have gone out of their way in their teacher notes to point out areas that will require their customers to evaluate from their own faith perspective. I haven't used nor do I plan to use the book on Mormonism previously mentioned in this thread. Their overall approach is typically to seek to understand other faiths and then help our older children analyze that information, compare it to biblical teaching, and then make up their own minds. If one specific resource is not appropriate in someone's family, there is no problem subbing it out and still using the overall plan. Of course, you don't even have to use any of the worldview resources and assignments at all if you aren't trying to work toward church history or worldview elective credits.

[HRAAB]

That's what my stepdad told me when I was a kid (I didn't believe him). 

 

I have known my bil and his family for over 30 years, and in the last 15 years or so, their religious beliefs have become very political.  I understand your faith informing your political views; I mean their political views have become their religion besides becoming more and more extreme.  My bil is a ordained minister.  I know they attended a Baptist Church for some time; currently I don't know where they attend church.  Gothard and others might be strongly motivated by their greed, but families like my bil who have been sucked in are sincere.  

[Starr]

Be safe, order from Peacehill Press! :D

[lea_lpz]

FWIW, we're not patriarchal at all but I wouldn't really object to the umbrella thing, I'd just explain it differently. Dad has a responsibility to take care of his family and love them. Mom has a responsibility to take care of and nurture the kids. Kids need to obey their parents. I don't think it has to mean mom does whatever dad says and keeps her mouth shut.

And I agree with this statement, it's just the over all big picture of her views on family being under the authority of the father, her citing Bill Gothard, and her views on courtship and the roles of women. Yes, I could make it work but at the same time going through it I'd still be running into a lot if the ideas she presents that don't represent our values. We have a much more equalitarian marriage and although I have chosen to be a SAHM and homeschool I do value my education and wouldn't want my dd to feel she had to make the same choice as me. I also make sure my children know my husband values my "work" as a care giver and my kids' teacher and that I should not be expected to take over all domestic household responsibilities. That my work isn't less meaningful because I am not employed out of the home and that it's a choice for us as a couple for me to do this, not an obligation as a Christian woman.

[Peaceful Isle]

http://www.visionforumministries.org

 

Was this already mentioned? I was just looking up vision forum, because I was not familiar with it, and I found that Doug Phillips is stepping down because of inappropriate behavior.

[jewellsmommy]

Well, yes and no. The issue is the subversive material that pervades the movement led by Gothard. Notice, if you will...not ONE SINGLE DEFENDER in either thread. Of his materials, his mission, his goals in " ministering" to the Christian community. Where are the ATI people in this thread, or the Duggar thread, or quite frankly, any thread where he is brought up? Why do the people who are affiliated with his " ministry" ( and I use that term lightly) never come out and just say they are part of his ministry...instead of saying they follow "certain principles"? I know there are so many who follow this dreck and push these materials, yet...where are they to say Hey, Faithe....you got this all wrong.

 

I am not big on book banning, or book burning....though a few of mine have found their way to the wood stove ( Pearls books went in along with my copy of a magickal formulary....I did not feel comfortable donating those along with the boxes of homeschooling books we were finished with).

 

I am not panicking at all....I just like to know what and whom I am dealing with...it helps me teach my material! I use many older and archaic books....I know I need to pre read them and feel out the world view....and then approach the book with my kids with a critical eye. Why would I ever be LESS careful with history or Bible studies than I would choosing a math curriculum....and don't even get me started on science! Lol!!!

 

It scares the freaking dickens out of me how close we were to subjecting our kids to this brainwashing ickyness!! My kids received enough bullying at the hands of the "perfect darlings" to never fall for that crud, and like I said I want to make sure not a dime of my money goes anywhere near any of these people. They are NOT harmless!

 

I totally understand banning a known offender's works from your house. After all I have read here and looked into myself (after learning of it here) I would not buy, accept, or encourage any works by several people I have learned of. Once you're a known offender I will not take a chance on you. But, if an author just happens to share a common link with a known offender I will not put them on my personal ban list. I will evaluate that person's writings and go from there. Some of the posts were making all kinds of leaps at connections though that made me think of the old timey witch hunt and trial hysteria. :lol:

 

 

ETA: I do agree that some concepts/ideas/teaching can be horribly damaging, and we absolutely should be on the lookout for these and active to confront or toss them. Like I first posted, I'm not afraid to throw a book in the trash, return one to a store, or even stop reading mid-sentence and declare a book too controversial or not worth finishing. I also edit well on the fly if a particular word irks me too much to say :D .

[Tammi K]

They do not allow men to have facial hair and I am sure dh word not go for that.

 

 

My husband looks positively goofy without his mustache. It would never work for us.  :-{

 

[Dory]

 They do not allow men to have facial hair and I am sure dh word not go for that.

 

 

Since they seem so big on Old Testament law, I would think they would be huge on facial hair. Shaving a persons face isn't exactly an OT type of thing.

[mommaduck]

Since they seem so big on Old Testament law, I would think they would be huge on facial hair. Shaving a persons face isn't exactly an OT type of thing.

 

It didn't fit with Gothard's 1950's/60's thinking. There are Pentacostal groups that their "before and after" pictures of converts make a big deal out of "beard vs clean shaven" = "scruffy, unkempt, unholy vs clean cut, godly" contrasts. 

 

My husband has had a beard like you wouldn't believe before...and now he has a long ole goatee (and he shaves his head, because he can't stand his fro) ;)

[mommaduck]

http://www.visionforumministries.org

 

Was this already mentioned? I was just looking up vision forum, because I was not familiar with it, and I found that Doug Phillips is stepping down because of inappropriate behavior.

 

Yes, there is at least one, if not two threads on it.

[Peaceful Isle]

Yes, there is at least one, if not two threads on it.

Doesn't surprise me...I'm usually the last to know about things in life :)

[TravelingChris]

I went to look up more stuff about Dominion theology.  The claims seem to be crazy.  The article I found talked about that these people believe in having everyone obey OT laws including the civil laws and then claims that "spiritual warfare" talk obviously means that  and then claims all sorts of people believe this when I know the works of at least one of the people mentioned and I can testify that he certainly wasn't about OT laws being enforced.  There is a lot of junky articles out there.  I think we need to be very careful here. Some of these are hyper theological arguments where one group of theological believers is basically calling the other group names.  I am seeing Dominion Theology being linked to which view of the end times you believe- premillenialism, postmillenialism or amillenialism.  I see it linked to faith healing, I see it linked to some people asking people to pray for our country.  I see it linked to whether you believe in Dispensialism or Covenant Theology and when I looked that stuff up, I couldn't figure out what was I supposed to be since neither described me in the first website I found but then I found another that had New Covenant Theology, which seemed to line up more with my beliefs except that it insisted that since we believe in infant baptism, we aren't and we are actually Covenant and according to the next site, that means we want to establish OT laws in the USA.  Uh-- no!. 

Some of the postings seem to argue if you aren't in favor of Gay marriage or you oppose abortion, you are into Reconstruction theology.  Again no.  I am absolutely certain that almost all those who oppose abortion are not into Reconstuctionist theology.  In fact, over 50% of Americans now believe that abortion should be illegal except for rape, incest or health of the mother.  Some of these sites and people seem to argue if you are following reformed theology and you are also a Republican, obviously you are into stoning adulterers, etc,  Again NO!

 

 

[Dory]

It didn't fit with Gothard's 1950's/60's thinking. There are Pentacostal groups that their "before and after" pictures of converts make a big deal out of "beard vs clean shaven" = "scruffy, unkempt, unholy vs clean cut, godly" contrasts. 

 

My husband has had a beard like you wouldn't believe before...and now he has a long ole goatee (and he shaves his head, because he can't stand his fro) ;)

 

Perhaps that's one of the reasons my parents didn't go too far with it. My dad has a beard halfway down his chest. I learned how to braid hair on it.

[WishboneDawn]

Ok, I'm really going to step in it here and say that I loved Vision Forum before they, you know, went down in flames. My kids love the Jonathan Park audios and we have some hymn cds that teach you to sing in parts. And potato guns! They're fabulous.

 

Admittedly some of the Jonathan Park gets a little off but we just talk about it. There was one segment where they were supporting girls not going to college and I just told my girls, "You're going to college." They were like, "We know." No big deal. I actually felt like one of their segments was very respectful to evolutionary scientists (they had a debate or something) not that I want to open THAT can of worms. We use those and we use materials from other, very different sources.

 

I'm pretty sure I have a grammar book somewhere here by the Pearls. Someone gave it to me. It's a little weak on actual grammar but there was nothing sinister about it.

 

My point is that you've just got to pick and choose. Like someone else already said, I don't think my boy's potato guns or our hymn cd brought evil woman enslaving mojo into our home.

 

Besides, I have a pixie cut. They wouldn't take me if I wanted to get in. :)

I think part of the problem some might have though is that the circle of concern for harm done should be wider then our own family.

 

The potato gun is of no issue to you but you gave funds in exchange for it, right? You dealt with the issues in the video. But now those funds are in the hands of a business enterprise that has done real damage. And when you're done with the video, will it be tossed out our passed on? And once out of your hands it might find it's way into the hands of someone not quite as discerning and you've become part of the system of spreading certain messages you object to.

 

There are excellent materials from more respectable and upfront companies. Part of picking and choosing might be too pick from those companies rather then ones like VF and the Pearls.

[Mommyfaithe]

I think part of the problem some might have though is that the circle of concern for harm done should be wider then our own family.

 

The potato gun is of no issue to you but you gave guns in exchange for it, right? You dealt with the issues in the video. But now those funds are in the hands of a business enterprise that has done real damage. And when you're done with the video, will it be tossed out our passed on? And once out of your hands it might find it's way into the hands of someone not quite as discerning and you've become part of the system of spreading certain messages you object to.

 

There are excellent materials from Moore respectable and upfront companies. Part of picking and choosing might be too pick from those companies rather then ones like VF and the Pearls.

I really agree here. Where are all those To Train Up a Child books now? Where? Mine is in the wood stove, but what about the thousands sent overseas or to military families, or very young new Christians, trying to be GOOD Christians??

 

I bought it! I wanted to be good. I wanted my kids to have good, honest, moral Christ filled lives. I wanted structure in our chaos. I wanted stability in our unstableness. I wanted a family where we could avoid the hurts and pitfalls around us.....and the Pearls, Ezzos, Gothard, etc.offered that. Displayed it. Held it out like a carrot on a stick. I believed most of what they said. I never did much of what they suggested because it was not in my nature. ( I am an attachment, bf on demand, non spanking parent) so, I felt I had blew it when my kids acted like.....kids. I felt demeaned and devalued as a woman and a mom because I could not even follow the damn formula correctly! Then when I had a 2nd trimester miscarriage, I really believed it was from my own sin and I deserved to lose my precious baby.

 

This is the crap they purport. This is what they sell and make a wonderful living off. This is preying on the weak and vulnerable in the most disgusting way!

 

My family never went to an ATI seminar. This mindset was pervasive in the Christian homeschool movement of the early 90's. We were prime for the taking. We didn't want our kids " ruined" by secular schooling. We didn't want moral decay in our homes. We were seeking other answers....and when you seek, you better be wearing some awesome armor....because " There are giants in the land! "

[Mommyfaithe]

And even worse....how many have completely walked away...,or ran away from Christianity, because THIS is it's public face??

[Mimm]

You'll want to do some reading if it concerns you. RC Sproul Jr. was defrocked for some of his teachings and actions. I am not going to post about it here though. You can research it if you wish. Yes, his father is mainstream Calvinist.

 

Can you point me in the direction of somewhere I can read about that? In a private message if you prefer?

[FaithManor]

I really agree here. Where are all those To Train Up a Child books now? Where? Mine is in the wood stove, but what about the thousands sent overseas or to military families, or very young new Christians, trying to be GOOD Christians??

 

I bought it! I wanted to be good. I wanted my kids to have good, honest, moral Christ filled lives. I wanted structure in our chaos. I wanted stability in our unstableness. I wanted a family where we could avoid the hurts and pitfalls around us.....and the Pearls, Ezzos, Gothard, etc.offered that. Displayed it. Held it out like a carrot on a stick. I believed most of what they said. I never did much of what they suggested because it was not in my nature. ( I am an attachment, bf on demand, non spanking parent) so, I felt I had blew it when my kids acted like.....kids. I felt demeaned and devalued as a woman and a mom because I could not even follow the damn formula correctly! Then when I had a 2nd trimester miscarriage, I really believed it was from my own sin and I deserved to lose my precious baby.

 

This is the crap they purport. This is what they sell and make a wonderful living off. This is preying on the weak and vulnerable in the most disgusting way!

 

My family never went to an ATI seminar. This mindset was pervasive in the Christian homeschool movement of the early 90's. We were prime for the taking. We didn't want our kids " ruined" by secular schooling. We didn't want moral decay in our homes. We were seeking other answers....and when you seek, you better be wearing some awesome armor....because " There are giants in the land! "

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: I am so sorry!

 

This is why I speak out about this stuff. Gothard and his ilk are very prominent at many state homeschool conventions now. We have friends that would be Gothard followers today if it weren't for one thing...the clothes. I'm not kidding, they literally agreed with just about everything else but she wasn't going to give up her pants, and he was not going to dress up and wear ties or have uber short hair all the time. Years later she always said, "Thank God for pants and long hair!"

 

People who have never had it singe them, think I'm on a witch hunt when I call it out. That's okay. I'm so very, very glad for them that their lives have never been touched by it. But, they are mistaken if they think this worldview is fringe and remote. We generally bemoan on this board that the homeschool conventions are hardly worth going to anymore because all of the speakers are aligned with teaching "lifestyle" and all manner of things that aren't about education...that the vendor halls are filled with everything from essential oils, to bee pollen, to off grid living products, to.....instead of being about curriculum, about books, about educational helps. We've talked about this A LOT! There is a reason for this, and it is because this worldview has begun to dominate the public face of homeschooling.

[TravelingChris]

Well mine went into the trash too.  I didn't buy it- the person who gave it to me actually got strength from me over time even though I wasn't trying to serve as any kind of role model.  What happened was that my friend, a fellow military wife and homeschooler, first started asking questions about how I have a different last name from my husband and mentioned that she had wanted to keep her name but her husband insisted on her changing it. This was very close to the time we met. Okay- not that strange in the \90's and not even strange, though less common today. Then over time, she would look at our family and see how my dh treated both the kids and me.  SHe became particularly impressed about how he was willing to help with soccer by being the team parent (which meant he would make the snack schedule and organize the end of season party and make the banner for the team- I was either pregnant or had an infant and my RA came roaring back and while he had been an assitant coach before, his work schedule made the team parent job more feasible at the time.  Anyway, she was impressed that we negotiated disagreements (though I never really discussed that all that much), that dh stepped up so well to help me when I was waiting for medications to start working and my arthritis was so bad, that dh didn't feel that diaper changing or feeding a baby was solely a women's job, etc, etc, etc.  My dh is conservative politically, we always belong to at least slightly more conservative churches though nothing =and I repeat again nothing- like the freak cults or churches that have been highlighted in this thread, however, he was at least 8 years younger than her husband and again not wanting to help change diapers wasn't that unusual still in the 90's, particularly with  a family who went to a more conservative church than we did. However, my suspicions were starting to be raised.  They went on red alert soon before we moved when I heard that the conservative pastor had counseled the husband that he wasn't acting Biblically and tried to get him to change his ways (towards more like we were, apparently) though I still only had inklings of what was going on- basically I knew her husband was not physically abusing them but probably emotionally at a minimum.  Well very soon after we moved, he retired, turns out he was secretly hiding money and he had a secret plane that she knew nothing about and he went to another state and filed for divorce.  I wrote her a letter for the court and because he ended up retiring, she did get some of his pension.  He started flying at a major airline.  Then when the court ordered child support payments, he just stopped working so he wouldn't have to pay.

 

They ended up living very frugally but mostly happily.  The father never wanted to see the daughter and visitation with the sons stopped very soon because physical abuse now started (the boys were younger teens now and probably didn't react in a good way when the father denigrated their mother or sister).  The father had turned to thinking from men are supposed to lead the family to only men and boys are good and women are bad type of thinking though he did still like his own mother.  That church did not teach that, that pastor didn't teach that, in fact I don't think anyone was teaching him that- he came to it on his own, I believe.  You see, they had three kids- two boys and the daughter.  The daughter was born less than a year after the boy.  The mom had thought that since she was breastfeeding and hadn't started her cycle yet, she wouldn't get pregnant.  I guess he viewed that as some sort of betrayal or something and the fact that the baby was a girl - I don;t know maybe he thought his wife somehow arranged that.  I don't get it.  He was an officer and more senior than my dh at that time, though a different branch of service.  Since he was a pilot, he was getting even more pay.  There was no money problem = he just had wacky ideas. 

 

Which brings me to the book, I think that she was desperate to get those kids to behave properly because of the father's emotional abuse.  Her daughter was around 3 at that time and I saw her discipline her kids and it never raised any concerns with me so I don't think she was following the book exactly at all.  She was a very loving mom and really nurturing for her kids so it especially didn't seem like she was following Pearl teachings very closely.  Oh and there was no reason for me or anyone to think he was emotionally abusing any of them because we would see them out and about and at that time, he was still interacting with the daughter and seemingly happily interacting with them all.  We lived near each other for four years and it was obvious he had changed over that time.