S/o Duggar thread...

[Mommyfaithe]

My squicky/icky has been heightened! I am going through all my homeschooling materials with an eye toward my own World View....and how these " principles" have affected my life and that of my family...children etc.

 

We never went ATI/ Gothard, but in thinking back to those days when we were being wooed rather than shunned 😠I am realizing how much STUFF infiltrated my home, my own brain and probably contributed to a whole bunch of serious spiritual warfare ( for lack of a better term.).

 

So, just how prevalent are ATI/ Gothardite materials in the home schooling community?? How many of those homespun curricula which grace my hallway have as their foundation some off the wall cultish worldview behind them??

 

I am kinda sick to my stomache today just thinking about it. NO, we did not buy into ATI or Gothard, but did they get into my home through the back door anyway??

 

Eeewwww!!! Eeeeewwwww!!!! Icky, icky!!, eeeeewwwwww!!!!!

[DawnM]

I do not know anyone using ATI materials and we don't have any uber conservative homeschooling friends.  We do have conservative friends, but not to the extent that ATI would advocate.  I don't think we know anyone who wears dresses only, keeps their hair long, uses only KJV, doesn't participate in organized sports, doesn't allow women to pursue advanced educations, don't use birth control, etc......

 

I just wouldn't have a lot in common with those people.

[albeto.]

I am realizing how much STUFF infiltrated my home, my own brain and probably contributed to a whole bunch of serious spiritual warfare ( for lack of a better term.).

 

So, just how prevalent are ATI/ Gothardite materials in the home schooling community?? How many of those homespun curricula which grace my hallway have as their foundation some off the wall cultish worldview behind them??

 

Vision Forum seeped its way into my home.

 

I'm with you: ew ew eewwwwww! 

[sunflowerlady]

Anything sold or promoted by Vision Forum would be suspect.

 

. A few years ago I was attended a local home school used book sale where an upcoming ATI workshop was being promoted. I know a good bit about the group holding the sale and they are Christian but not ATI. I see think someone just brought in fliers about the event and asked them to offer them to shoppers. I did take a flier and considered going. At that point though, I knew enough about them to know that it would not work for my family. They do not allow men to have facial hair and I am sure dh word not go for that.

 

Now I am so far removed from any interest in that viewpoint that I would be Gothard's worst nightmare. :)

[Guest]

Vision Forum seeped its way into my home.

 

I'm with you: ew ew eewwwwww!

I have a set of DVDs I bought from VF years ago. They are about family entrepreneurship. This is a subject of interest to me, as dh has two businesses and we are landlords. When i watched the first video, I realized this was created according to the model of "girls shouldn't go to college" and I didn't get around to watching the rest because I was turned off. I was just thinking about those dvds since our other thread. I have kept the videos, because I'm sure there's useful info in there, but I haven't made an effort to watch them, because...idk, maybe I don't want to hear "good info" mixed in with insidious trash.

 

I will be delighted if my kids start their own businesses one day...but equally delighted if my daughter does.

[Mommyfaithe]

Vision Forum seeped its way into my home.

 

I'm with you: ew ew eewwwwww!

Yeah, we'll...those Davy Crockett rifles were very tempting.....eeeeewwwwww!!!

 

I am going to go bleach myself!

 

I am thinking:

Barb Shelton??

Marilyn Howshall?!

Far Above Rubies people?? Who were they again??!

Veritas Press? Are they ATI?? I know they teach myths....but??!

 

After I read how politicians affiliated in one way or another got their character curriculum into the public schools....well, how much easier to get it into our home schools?

 

Oh, what about the Principle Approach? Is that Gothard sanctioned? Beautiful Feet (Rae Berg?? )

 

 

Ugh! Ugh! Ugh!!

 

I don't know about these....asking if anyone does know. Anyone??

[Mommyfaithe]

I have a set of DVDs I bought from VF years ago. They are about family entrepreneurship. This is a subject of interest to me, as dh has two businesses and we are landlords. When i watched the first video, I realized this was created according to the model of "girls shouldn't go to college" and I didn't get around to watching the rest because I was turned off. I was just thinking about those dvds since our other thread. I have kept the videos, because I'm sure there's useful info in there, but I haven't made an effort to watch them, because...idk, maybe I don't want to hear "good info" mixed in with insidious trash.

 

I will be delighted if my kids start their own businesses one day...but equally delighted if my daughter does.

I think it is the eeeeewwww factor!

[sunflowerlady]

I should go through all of my materials also. There might be some Vision Forum or similar items still here. I have a lot of materials and I need to declutter.

 

Things I have owned : VF lecture audio CDs. One was about blessing your husband's vision. One was about college decisions. Basically it said to avoid having your child attend college unless absolutely necessary. Necessary was defined as something like a doctor or lawyer.

 

I had the DVD and books about stay at home daughters. I also had some CDs with homeschooling tips from different Vision Forum wives.

[Mommyfaithe]

Anything sold or promoted by Vision Forum would be suspect.

 

. A few years ago I was attended a local home school used book sale where an upcoming ATI workshop was being promoted. I know a good bit about the group holding the sale and they are Christian but not ATI. I see think someone just brought in fliers about the event and asked them to offer them to shoppers. I did take a flier and considered going. At that point though, I knew enough about them to know that it would not work for my family. They do not allow men to have facial hair and I am sure dh word not go for that.

 

Now I am so far removed from any interest in that viewpoint that I would be Gothard's worst nightmare. :)

 

Yeah, I am definitely not a fan.

[FaithManor]

Vision Forum for starters, Character Sketches, Wisdom Booklets, Basic Life Principles, Advanced Institute in Basic Youth Concepts or Advanced Institute in Basic Life Principles (which are anything BUT basic), books by Pearl, and Ezzo, some of the things by R.C. Sproul Jr. (at one point he was advocating spanking your wife for her sins), anything political written by Howard Phillips (father of Doug Phillips and during a few presidential elections, a candidate for the Constitution Party, a group that advocated upending the constitution to create a theocracy, emptying prisons by reinstituting capitol punishment for just about all offenses, stonings for adulterers, LGBT, and rebellious teenagers, etc. and YES, his name appeared on the ballot more than once which just scares the crap out of me!!!!), some BJU materials IF you include in materials that have glossed over the Civil War, slavery, and Civil Rights Movement or presents birth control and women's rights as BAD - most of this would be included in the high school materials and not the other, but it's subtle where these other authors are really in your face about it, Geoffrey Botkin or his daughters, Scott Brown, materials by the Bradricks, Voddie B...(can't remember how to spell his last name), anything by Doug Wilson (Moscow Idaho - google if your stomach is strong), R.J. Rushdoony and Chalcedon Foundation, Gary DeMar of American Vision and Worldview Magazine,...here's another list of notable Reconstructionists or Dominionists:

 

noted Reconstructionists include Greg Bahnson, David Barton of WallBuilders, Inc., David Chilton, Gary DeMar of American Vision and Worldview Magazine; Ted DeMoss of Christian Business Men’s Committee; Kenneth Gentry, Jay Grimstead of Coalition on Revival; James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church; Tim LaHaye of American Coalition for Traditional Values; Mrs. Connie Marshner of Free Congress Foundation; Rev. Joseph Morecraft; Gary North of Institute for Christian Economics; Mark Siljander of Global Strategies, Inc.; Randall Terry of Operation Rescue and Rev. Donald Wildmon of American Family Association. Dr. Kennedy, Rev. LaHaye, Mrs. Marshner, Mr. North, R.J. Rushdoony, and Rev. Wildmon are all members of the Council For National Policy.

 

Homeschool Legal Defense Association supports Bill Gothard and other Reconstructionist/Dominionist preachers.

 

An article that succinctly describes the beliefs behind dominionism/reconstructionism and it's political outreach.

 

http://a2zhomeschool.com/homeschool/masters-of-home-education/reconstruction-theology-and-home-education/?repeat=w3tc

 

There may be specific curricula out there beside the Wisdom Booklets and Character Sketches that teach Dominionism and heavy handed patriarchial concepts to young children, but since I've been using secular curriculums for years and have only high schoolers now, I am completely out of the loop so someone might want to ask around the K-8 board.

 

 

Faith

[Mommyfaithe]

So, if HSLDA advocates ATI(. ....and I am sure it does since the one and only time I attended a convention in my state...LEAH is totally ATI, which i did not know ....Came home from the convention, which I thought would fire me up, depressed for months! I came home feeling inadequate and doomed to hell....no joke!). HSLDA and the ATI people were all buddy, buddy....

 

 

Does that mean Marcia Somerville of Tapestry of Grace is also ATI since her husband is one of their attorneys? I use more and

 

 

This is really deeper than I had ever imagined. I am really feeling like a big fat dumb@ss.

 

Ick, ick! Ick!

[sunflowerlady]

Oh.my.word. HSLDA too?

 

I used to own books written by several people on that list.

 

Some of Abeka would be along these lines. I stopped taking them seriously when I found out that they taught in one of their history texts that the " hippies" of the sixties were Satan worshippers.

[a27mom]

This is one reason why I avoid "Christian" labeled homeschool materials. I just don't trust it unless I know the author very well.

[FaithManor]

I would not necessarily assume that because he is a lawyer for the organization, he necessarily believes in reconstructionism/dominionism. He is a homeschool proponent and believes the right to do so should be constitutionally protected. He has a job with them. It's hard to say since I've never read anything he's written or heard him speak nor her either. So, maybe someone with a lot of knowledge on TOG can answer this question.

[FaithManor]

Abeka, A.C.E., and BJU have been accused of being dominionist. Now that being said, I don't use the stuff so I can't say for certain, but back in the 80's when I was briefly exposed to the A.C.E. curricula in high school - thankfully it was brief because the school was NOT a good place...run by very abusive people which of course does not mean the curricula was abusive but just that it probably colors my perspective so I'll throw that out there - I remember it as being very reconstructionist. Have lots of children and raise them to be warriors to take over the government and make America a theocracy again, the only place for a Christian woman was in the home and definitely presented it as sinful for a woman to work outside the home, and VERY short changed in the biology paces concerning human reproduction. Again though, I think the company is not run by the same person anymore and has since been revised, so it would be really good if someone in the know on this could way in on this.

[Mommyfaithe]

Can someone who uses TOG or used to use TOG please chime in???

 

I feel like my house is in need of a big giant PURGE!!!

 

I remember after reading the Pearl books and just glossing over the weirdness without even thinking about it. I thought they were just odd. Definitely took a while and reading some threads here to get me to go back and read them...which resulted in a lovely fire in my wood stove! I had no desire to pass those books along to anyone!

Ever!!!

 

Now, I am getting that same ICK feeling, which makes me so off kilter. Seriously! I am careful about the world view I send to my kids....and I can find gross problems with many secular books just as easily as Christian ones....I have tossed many, many history textbooks because they were just too difficult to skirt around. Kids, especially younger ones tend to believe what they read in their books....you know, IT has to be true, my books said it! I am finding it more and more difficult to find materials suitable for my kids.

 

Most of all, I do not want ONE PENNY of my money going to ANYTHING Gothard or ATI endorsed! NOTHING!!! NADA!!!! Not even in a round about way. I would not want to support them or any of their supporters even in a round about way. That would be like me supporting the KKK or a Nazi group. NEVER gonna happen!!! No way, no how!!!

 

Time for some research.....

[Guest]

 

 

Vicki Ferris, who is married to Michael Ferris of HSLDA, follows with quiverful philosophy, but I don't know how far she/they support ATI. Iirc, their eldest daughter went to college, but I also recall one of her daughters married...ummm, absurdly young. This is from what I recall about the book, " a mom just like you," written by Ferris.

[Mommyfaithe]

Abeka, A.C.E., and BJU have been accused of being dominionist. Now that being said, I don't use the stuff so I can't say for certain, but back in the 80's when I was briefly exposed to the A.C.E. curricula in high school - thankfully it was brief because the school was NOT a good place...run by very abusive people which of course does not mean the curricula was abusive but just that it probably colors my perspective so I'll throw that out there - I remember it as being very reconstructionist. Have lots of children and raise them to be warriors to take over the government and make America a theocracy again, the only place for a Christian woman was in the home and definitely presented it as sinful for a woman to work outside the home, and VERY short changed in the biology paces concerning human reproduction. Again though, I think the company is not run by the same person anymore and has since been revised, so it would be really good if someone in the know on this could way in on this.

If it is any consolation, I used a BJU textbook when it was part of Sonlight 6. I remember clearly the day I threw that textbook against the wall mid-lesson and told my kids that the chapter was the biggest bunch of bullshit I had ever read. That entire book blamed every vice of mankind on the Roman Catholic Church! Oh really! Come on!!! That book also went into the stove.

[FaithManor]

I honestly have no idea what any of that stuff is or means.  I generally don't buy religious materials.  The only questionable thing I've ever bought was one volume of Pathway Readers.  We stopped using it when I kept seeing a recurring theme of "girl's place vs boy's place".  I don't want my boys to develop that attitude.  And interestingly I though I'd have trouble with the religion.  It hardly mentioned religion.

 

And I did buy a chemistry and physics kit from Vision Forum.  I didn't know what Vision Forum was.  My BIL sent us the same kits, but the instructions were all in German (The Dangerous Book for Boys).  So I searched high and low for the same kits in English.  They had them a few places.  VF just happened to be the cheapest.  But that whole order situation went very strangely and they screwed up.  They said they had the kits.  Then I waited about 2 months and heard nothing.  So I e-mailed them and they said they were undergoing some organizational/business changes...sorry, blah blah.  They said they don't have the kits.  But then magically they mailed me the kits.  And they never charged me for them.  Ok...so I got 2 free kits.  LOL

Wow, that's crazy bad business juju!

[Mommyfaithe]

I honestly have no idea what any of that stuff is or means. I generally don't buy religious materials. The only questionable thing I've ever bought was one volume of Pathway Readers. We stopped using it when I kept seeing a recurring theme of "girl's place vs boy's place". I don't want my boys to develop that attitude. And interestingly I though I'd have trouble with the religion. It hardly mentioned religion.

 

And I did buy a chemistry and physics kit from Vision Forum. I didn't know what Vision Forum was. My BIL sent us the same kits, but the instructions were all in German (The Dangerous Book for Boys). So I searched high and low for the same kits in English. They had them a few places. VF just happened to be the cheapest. But that whole order situation went very strangely and they screwed up. They said they had the kits. Then I waited about 2 months and heard nothing. So I e-mailed them and they said they were undergoing some organizational/business changes...sorry, blah blah. They said they don't have the kits. But then magically they mailed me the kits. And they never charged me for them. Ok...so I got 2 free kits. LOL

Lucky!

[alef]

Can someone who uses TOG or used to use TOG please chime in???

 

I feel like my house is in need of a big giant PURGE!!!

 

I remember after reading the Pearl books and just glossing over the weirdness without even thinking about it. I thought they were just odd. Definitely took a while and reading some threads here to get me to go back and read them...which resulted in a lovely fire in my wood stove! I had no desire to pass those books along to anyone!

Ever!!!

 

Now, I am getting that same ICK feeling, which makes me so off kilter. Seriously! I am careful about the world view I send to my kids....and I can find gross problems with many secular books just as easily as Christian ones....I have tossed many, many history textbooks because they were just too difficult to skirt around. Kids, especially younger ones tend to believe what they read in their books....you know, IT has to be true, my books said it! I am finding it more and more difficult to find materials suitable for my kids.

 

Most of all, I do not want ONE PENNY of my money going to ANYTHING Gothard or ATI endorsed! NOTHING!!! NADA!!!! Not even in a round about way. I would not want to support them or any of their supporters even in a round about way. That would be like me supporting the KKK or a Nazi group. NEVER gonna happen!!! No way, no how!!!

 

Time for some research.....

I don't think TOG is particularly dominionist (though I'm not exactly clear on what that means) nor patriarchal. It is reformed. I have issues with TOG at the moment because they have chosen a new book for their three week study on Mormonism and it is highly biased and inaccurate. There are plenty of legitimate LDS doctrines to discuss if you want to do a unit on what Mormons believe compared to what Protestant Christians believe, it drives me bonkers when people start telling me I believe things I don't and my church teaches things it doesn't...for now I am giving Marcia and her crew the benefit of the doubt and assuming they just took the book's claims to accuracy at face value and are not intentionally teaching falsehoods.

 

As for ATI-- nah, Marcia Sommerville's hair is way to short for her to be associated with them :)

[mommaduck]

Yeah, we'll...those Davy Crockett rifles were very tempting.....eeeeewwwwww!!!

 

I am going to go bleach myself!

 

I am thinking:

Barb Shelton??

Marilyn Howshall?!

Far Above Rubies people?? Who were they again??!

Veritas Press? Are they ATI?? I know they teach myths....but??!

 

After I read how politicians affiliated in one way or another got their character curriculum into the public schools....well, how much easier to get it into our home schools?

 

Oh, what about the Principle Approach? Is that Gothard sanctioned? Beautiful Feet (Rae Berg?? )

 

 

Ugh! Ugh! Ugh!!

 

I don't know about these....asking if anyone does know. Anyone??

 

Veritas Press is associated with CREC and Douglas Wilson. Another brand of creepy.

[sunflowerlady]

I used ACE for math with did for a few years. It was a good fit for her and I don't recall any issues. Of course it would likely show up in social studies materials.

 

I looked over Abeka high school biology. It had next to no info regarding human reproductive system but went into quite a lot of detail about abortions including various methods. Decided against using it.

[FaithManor]

As for ATI-- nah, Marcia Sommerville's hair is way to short for her to be associated with them :)

:D This is probably pretty accurate! Gothard makes a huge deal about women not cutting there hair and ideally coloring blond if it isn't already, and wavy...must be wavy. It's in one of newsletters on hairstyles and make-up color.

[T'smom]

I have not used TOG, but I went to hear Marcia's husband speak at the CIncy conference a couple years ago. He very blatantly assumed everyone in the room was a republican, which I found very irritating, because I am NOT. But they certainly seemed to be educating their daughters as well as their sons.

[Mommyfaithe]

Veritas Press is associated with CREC and Douglas Wilson. Another brand of creepy.

Yeah, I have my own reasons for not using their stuff, or using with a grain of salt....mainly their disdain for homeschoolers. I mean, If we are all so inadequate and couldn't possibly do as good of a job as your cute little classical school, why be so happy to take our money?? Grrrrrr....burns my britches!

[DianeW88]

I don't think TOG is particularly dominionist (though I'm not exactly clear on what that means) nor patriarchal. It is reformed. I have issues with TOG at the moment because they have chosen a new book for their three week study on Mormonism and it is highly biased and inaccurate. There are plenty of legitimate LDS doctrines to discuss if you want to do a unit on what Mormons believe compared to what Protestant Christians believe, it drives me bonkers when people start telling me I believe things I don't and my church teaches things it doesn't...for now I am giving Marcia and her crew the benefit of the doubt and assuming they just took the book's claims to accuracy at face value and are not intentionally teaching falsehoods.

 

As for ATI-- nah, Marcia Sommerville's hair is way to short for her to be associated with them :)

 

TOG has always been blatantly anti-Mormon.  I won't patronize them any longer.  Like you, I don't mind people enumerating legitimate points of our faith that they disagree with (and I will do the same with their faith in the context of study and educating my children), but when they are promoting obvious lies and half-truths, they've lost my respect.  And I also wonder what other elements of their curriculum they are distorting in order to promote their own viewpoint.

[Mommyfaithe]

I don't think TOG is particularly dominionist (though I'm not exactly clear on what that means) nor patriarchal. It is reformed. I have issues with TOG at the moment because they have chosen a new book for their three week study on Mormonism and it is highly biased and inaccurate. There are plenty of legitimate LDS doctrines to discuss if you want to do a unit on what Mormons believe compared to what Protestant Christians believe, it drives me bonkers when people start telling me I believe things I don't and my church teaches things it doesn't...for now I am giving Marcia and her crew the benefit of the doubt and assuming they just took the book's claims to accuracy at face value and are not intentionally teaching falsehoods.

 

As for ATI-- nah, Marcia Sommerville's hair is way to short for her to be associated with them :)

I think Marcia is very approachable. Maybe you could send her an email and suggest a replacement book.

[Mommyfaithe]

:D This is probably pretty accurate! Gothard makes a huge deal about women not cutting there hair and ideally coloring blond if it isn't already, and wavy...must be wavy. It's in one of newsletters on hairstyles and make-up color.

Seriously?? Weirdo.

[Truscifi]

This thread makes me glad I don't know what most of those terms mean.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't get all the drama.  If books and media, homeschooling or not, don't meet your worldview, of course you would not buy it or would get rid of it if you had accidentally done so, right?  I was sent VF catalogs for awhile.  I bought a gun for my son from there.  It's a gun - made out of plastic mostly.  I don't somehow think the gun has brought any bad juju into our house.  I don't do searches on all the business practices and values of all the toy companies I buy from.  I did notice that there was a gender discrepancy in the catalog and thought that was weird.  I did a search later on their views because I wasn't sure about the actual books and decided that this was not something I agreed with.  I never bought anything else from them afterwards but mainly that's because I asked them  to stop sending the catalog.  I have plenty of other choices and didn't feel like supporting them.  But it's not something I waste a lot of time and energy on.  

[MFG]

I also don't think that just the presence of similar ideas means there is any organic connection between groups. Many of these ideas were floating around in the Christian homeschooling zeitgeist of the 1990s -2000s. Their espousal by many different people and groups is not evidence of a grand conspiracy.

[mamajudy]

I don't get all the drama.  If books and media, homeschooling or not, don't meet your worldview, of course you would not buy it or would get rid of it if you had accidentally done so, right?  I was sent VF catalogs for awhile.  I bought a gun for my son from there.  It's a gun - made out of plastic mostly.  I don't somehow think the gun has brought any bad juju into our house.  I don't do searches on all the business practices and values of all the toy companies I buy from.  I did notice that there was a gender discrepancy in the catalog and thought that was weird.  I did a search later on their views because I wasn't sure about the actual books and decided that this was not something I agreed with.  I never bought anything else from them afterwards but mainly that's because I asked them  to stop sending the catalog.  I have plenty of other choices and didn't feel like supporting them.  But it's not something I waste a lot of time and energy on.  

:iagree:   If I don't use curriculum A because it's somehow connected to curriculum B, which has connections to curriculum C, which is endorsed by the author of curriculum D, and on and on, I wouldn't be using anything. We need to use our own judgement in these matters. Just because another family uses a particular program, or some Christian educator recommends it, that does not mean it is appropriate for us. If we are studying the Bible ourselves and praying for God's guidance we should have the discernment to know when something is just not right.  

[FaithManor]

People are not creating drama here. They are genuinely asking because they do not want to inadvertently spend money on something that does not meet their worldview, and in this case, they want to avoid reconstructionist/dominionist worldview. So, it's a genuine question about which authors would be best to avoid.

 

Actually, I do not use any curriculum that is directly linked to reconstructionist/dominionist theology, and I have LOTS of curricula around here. There is plenty to choose from and on moral grounds, some people do ask for help weeding out specific ideologies so that they do not spend money on something only to find out they'll be throwing it in the trash. It's a waste of one's financial resources if it can be helped. It is no different than posts asking "which math programs are spiral approach and not mastery, because mastery makes my child crazy", or "which history curriculums are chronological" or "which reading programs are whole word because phonics does not work for my child" or whatever. People seek to not waste their money on something that will not work for them if it can be avoided.

 

Nobody said anything about a conspiracy. What the OP said is she doesn't want this particular worldview in her curriculum. If it doesn't bother you, great.

[mytwomonkeys]

some of the things by R.C. Sproul Jr. (at one point he was advocating spanking your wife for her sins)

That was the weirdest thing I've ever read. lol

 

I don't know anything about RC Sproul Jr, but his dad (I'm assuming) RC Sproul is a renowned 5 point Calvinist & I can't imagine him having anything to do with that.

[FaithManor]

That was the weirdest thing I've ever read. lol

 

I don't know anything about RC Sproul Jr, but his dad (I'm assuming) RC Sproul is a renowned 5 point Calvinist & I can't imagine him having anything to do with that.

You'll want to do some reading if it concerns you. RC Sproul Jr. was defrocked for some of his teachings and actions. I am not going to post about it here though. You can research it if you wish. Yes, his father is mainstream Calvinist.

[TravelingChris]

Well I have Barb Shelton's Senior HIgh: A Home Designed Formula here and just judging from the photos, I would say no.    They were pants, tshirts,sleeveless dresses, short hair, go skiing, do co-ed science biology classes with dissection, etc.  She writes how she is happy that her older daughter who was 21 then had graduated, moved out and was living her own life.

 

I never used any Marilyn Howshall's materials but I just went on her website and based on their statement of beliefs and their photos, (where they and adult children are all dressed in pants and most of the women have short hair) I would say no there too.

[mytwomonkeys]

You'll want to do some reading if it concerns you. RC Sproul Jr. was defrocked for some of his teachings and actions. I am not going to post about it here though. You can research it if you wish. Yes, his father is mainstream Calvinist.

I don't want to research it. I'm just shocked that I can still be shocked here, lol. I literally had to read it twice to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding it. Spanking your wife for her sins?? It almost sounds like weird adult fetishes, lol

[LucyStoner]

That was the weirdest thing I've ever read. lol

 

I don't know anything about RC Sproul Jr, but his dad (I'm assuming) RC Sproul is a renowned 5 point Calvinist & I can't imagine him having anything to do with that.

I dunno. I figure the whole wife spanking thing is just a mighty convenient way to justify a fetish with religion.

[mommaduck]

Yes, RC, Jr went extremist...TR (Truly Reformed aka more Reformed Than Thou... saying this as having been). His father is more mainstream and balanced in Reformed Circles. I'll leave it at that. I'll only add that the family has been through a lot in recent years with health issues, if I remember correctly.

[Mommyfaithe]

I am no conspiracy theorist. I am also quite gullible ;-)

 

Anyway, there was a while lotta weird going on in my neck of the woods when I started homeschooling....think on one hand naked hippy kids and on the other Gothardites....and here I am....a Jewish born again Christian homeschooling for academic reasons! Lol!!!!

 

Talk about one big square peg surrounded by other pegs which are definitely anything but round!

 

I guess my biggest beef with Gothard and the likes of him is how they prey upon the weak and trusting. They prey upon those seeking a relationship with Christ and those who are looking for the Way. They prey upon families where the parents do not have a firm grip, or good role models, on how to parent. They latch on to these families and turn them into Stepford families. It makes me shudder to think how close I came to that....and how grateful I am that my husband had his senses about him.

 

I guess that whole thread just brought up lots of past drama and probably a bit of PTSD. The Duggars seem like nice people. So do wolves in sheeps clothing. Sorry, the fact that they are not completely open about their tie ins with Gothard, yet apparent,y have no problems talking about their sex life...and don't even mind giving others advice on theirs, just pisses me off!!

 

They are not harmless any more than the FLDS is harmless or any other fanatical group no matter how gentle and kind they seem to be. Yes, we live in America where we are free to worship how we see fit, and this is one of those pitfalls....but man oh man! Oh yeah, my bloomers are in a twist.

[momma2three]

It's a free country, and that also means that people are free to spend their money how they see fit.  If someone doesn't want their money going to an organization which they don't want to support, it makes sense to me that they would research where that money is going.  I don't think it's "drama" to want to direct your money away from organizations which someone thinks are actively harmful.

[Mommyfaithe]

Well I have Barb Shelton's Senior HIgh: A Home Designed Formula here and just judging from the photos, I would say no. They were pants, tshirts,sleeveless dresses, short hair, go skiing, do co-ed science biology classes with dissection, etc. She writes how she is happy that her older daughter who was 21 then had graduated, moved out and was living her own life.

 

I never used any Marilyn Howshall's materials but I just went on her website and based on their statement of beliefs and their photos, (where they and adult children are all dressed in pants and most of the women have short hair) I would say no there too.

I have used Barb and Marilyn's materials. Both seemed Hippy Christian which does float my boat. I never bought into the Noah Plan r Principle approach as it just seemed too complicated for little ol me ...and besides...I had My Charlotte Mason Hippy Dippy stuff. 💜. Both Barb and Marilyn were sort of unschooly, sort of academic, sort of "spirit-led" and I had no idea Marilyn Howshall still had a website...lol.

 

Neither one of them ever sold any curricula per se, but spoke and write on homeschooling with a spirit filled life. Sweet stuff that sometimes got way over my head.

[Mommyfaithe]

It's a free country, and that also means that people are free to spend their money how they see fit. If someone doesn't want their money going to an organization which they don't want to support, it makes sense to me that they would research where that money is going. I don't think it's "drama" to want to direct your money away from organizations which someone thinks are actively harmful.

Amen!!!

I am very careful where I spend my money.

NO, I do not shop at Walmart

[TravelingChris]

Sorry for the double post.  NM

[TravelingChris]

MommyFaithe, what exactly are you opposed to and don't want in the curriculum?   I know that I won't be recommending ATI/Gothard material or Pearl Material or Doug Wilson materials but it has nothing to do with so-called dominionism, which I have barely ever heard about.  It has to do with things like cultish behavior and/or depraved indifference to such matters as child sex abuse.

On the other hand, while I don't hold with limiting education, I did use with no problem Mennonite books for earlier grades at ti though we are military and do believe in advanced education.  Yes, they have a different lifestyle than mine but it isn't abhorrent in the way cults or people who believe in whipping babies or people who excuse child sexual abuse.  There is no comparison.

Sp I ;looked up dominionism and I see that people I have used are sometimes labeled as such:

From Wikipedia article on dominionism, Jeremy Pierce of First Things writes 

"It strikes me as irresponsible to lump [Rushdoony] together with Francis Schaeffer and those influenced by him, especially given Schaeffer’s many recorded instances of resisting exactly the kinds of views Rushdoony developed. Indeed, it strikes me as an error of the magnitude of some of Rushdoony’s own historical nonsense to consider there to be such a view called Dominionism [sic] that Rushdoony, Schaeffer, James Dobson, and all the other people in the list somehow share and that it seeks to get Christians and only Christians into all the influential positions in secular society.^[58]"

 

From that article, I gather Rushdoony apparently wanted a theocracy.  I don't think many of the people on these dominion lists are into stoning adulterers, and other things he may have apparenly adovocated.  I just know that I have had some awareness of some of the names mentioned and yes, they are conservative, but no, they aren't into slavery, child sex abuse, cults, or limiting educational opportunities for young adults to leave home or to go to college.  Now anyone is free to choose homeschooling material they like but lets not tar people with unfair labels.

[mschickie]

So, if HSLDA advocates ATI(. ....and I am sure it does since the one and only time I attended a convention in my state...LEAH is totally ATI, which i did not know ....Came home from the convention, which I thought would fire me up, depressed for months! I came home feeling inadequate and doomed to hell....no joke!). HSLDA and the ATI people were all buddy, buddy....

 

 

Does that mean Marcia Somerville of Tapestry of Grace is also ATI since her husband is one of their attorneys? I use more and

 

 

This is really deeper than I had ever imagined. I am really feeling like a big fat dumb@ss.

 

Ick, ick! Ick!

 I am curious when did you go to the LEAH convention?  I have been going for several years and I do not see an ATI bent there, maybe I have missed it.  I do know a few homeschoolers in my LEAH chapter who might lean a little towards ATI but definitely not all of them.

[Mommyfaithe]

MommyFaithe, what exactly are you opposed to and don't want in the curriculum? I know that I won't be recommending ATI/Gothard material or Pearl Material or Doug Wilson materials but it has nothing to do with so-called dominionism, which I have barely ever heard about. It has to do with things like cultish behavior and/or depraved indifference to such matters as child sex abuse.

On the other hand, while I don't hold with limiting education, I did use with no problem Mennonite books for earlier grades at ti though we are military and do believe in advanced education. Yes, they have a different lifestyle than mine but it isn't abhorrent in the way cults or people who believe in whipping babies or people who excuse child sexual abuse. There is no comparison.

Sp I ;looked up dominionism and I see that people I have used are sometimes labeled as such:

From Wikipedia article on dominionism, Jeremy Pierce of First Things writes

From that article, I gather Rushdoony apparently wanted a theocracy. I don't think many of the people on these dominion lists are into stoning adulterers, and other things he may have apparenly adovocated. I just know that I have had some awareness of some of the names mentioned and yes, they are conservative, but no, they aren't into slavery, child sex abuse, cults, or limiting educational opportunities for young adults to leave home or to go to college. Now anyone is free to choose homeschooling material they like but lets not tar people with unfair labels.

I agree. Not into the tar and feather thing. I just like to know what I am getting...Kwim?? If following Gothard and his minions is so great, why doesn't ANY of their people just step forward and say....I follow the teachings of ATI, and I am proud of it...here is why you should. Instead, all I see is skirting ( no pun) the issue, hiding it, calling it what it isn't etc. fear of persecution?? Maybe that is the line fed to them....but I don't think so!!!

 

Just let me say. I wasn't placing blame or labels, I was asking because I really want to know.

 

As you can see from my siggy, I do use Mennonite materials...although I did just trash the history and science...more from boredom than anything else.

 

I am running out now ...but will be back later on to discuss more. :-)

[Mrs Mungo]

Veritas Press is associated with CREC and Douglas Wilson. Another brand of creepy.

He is definitely dominionist though.

 

I can't figure out how to multi quote on my phone, and I am waiting on dh, so sorry to serial post. ;)

[Mrs Mungo]

I have not used TOG, but I went to hear Marcia's husband speak at the CIncy conference a couple years ago. He very blatantly assumed everyone in the room was a republican, which I found very irritating, because I am NOT.

This is EXTREMELY common at homeschooling conventions. I have heard nearly every major speaker on the circuit (other than SWB) act in this manner. It is VERY rude and irritating. It has resulted in me ceasing to use the materials of two authors and turning other people off of using them in favor of other materials.