Ugh. Cheating AGAIN, thoughts?

[Shelsi]

I caught ds, 9, cheating about 2 weeks ago on a vocabulary quiz.  He was around the corner, my teacher's manual was over there, and he peeked at the answers. 

 

When he handed in his quiz, I looked it over, crumpled it up, threw it away, and had him take the last 2 quizzes over again.  We had a serious talk about cheating, dh talked to him about cheating, etc. 

 

I just came into the kitchen to see him working on his math with his hands under the table.  I told him to give it to me and sure enough he was using the calculator on his ipod.  Needless to say the ipod is gone of course. 

 

Thoughts on punishment?  This is not stuff he doesn't know/understand how to do.  I'm pretty sure it's 2-fold:  1) he can't STAND to get anything wrong, ever.  Whether it's school work or just random facts he likes to have in his head.  He stresses about wrong answers even though we've never made a big deal about wrong answers, we don't even do grades, and we just go over wrong answers together and correct them.  2) he doesn't want to do work.  He's a "do as little as possible to squeak by" kind of kid unfortunately which happened to be my dh's academic personality when he was a kid as well (and maybe it shows in certain areas as an adult but that's another topic!). 

 

I'm thinking of having him re-do the last week of math over the weekend, and until he does he won't be allowed electronics.  Too harsh?  Not enough?  I'm trying to keep the consequences tied to the cheating as much as possible.

[kiana]

I don't think it's too harsh. Taking the electronics away for a while since he doesn't know how to use them appropriately is totally reasonable imo.

 

I do think I'd put every effort possible into reducing the opportunity for him to cheat. That means no teacher's manuals anywhere in sight, no electronics around when he's working, etc.

[AK_Mom4]

Well,  maybe not a whole week's worth of math unless you think he has been cheating all week.  Re-do the work he cheated on, but I don't generally think it's a good idea to use school work as punishment.  Just my opinion, though.

 

Taking away the electronics - yes definitly.  And that ipod would not be coming back until he had DEMONSTRATED some self control.  Tough for a 9yo, but good practice.   At our house he would lose all unsupervised electronics as well - poor self control and the internet don't mix.

 

In case it helps - I have found that cheating was more attached to being bored and not wanting to do the busy work.  "Just get it done" is something that had to be learned over time. In the meantime, more supervision and more challenging work might help.

[4ofus]

Take this with a grain of salt ~ as every situation & family is certainly different ~ but I would simply attach myself to him for school.  No opportunity = no cheating.  

 

In our home, we "school" around the kitchen table.  This applies to the pencil & paper kind of schooling.  During that time I busy myself in the kitchen. If it's something I know they REALLY don't want to do, I sit at the kitchen table with them & answer questions, go over material, read, pay bills, or crochet.  But I'm really watching them & helping them learn to stay the course.  It's sometimes a pain, but that's how we do it.

 

Good Luck.

 

 

ETA: In general I use this principle often for troublesome behaviors.  The more I would like to send you to your room, the closer I bring myself to you.  Ex:  misbehavior that makes me angry & want to send him to his room, he gets to help me cook dinner tonight & clean the kitchen.  It will be lovely :).  No, brother doesn't have to.   ;)  Said quite sweetly if I can muster it.

 

My mama used to say "if the punishment isn't kind of disruptive to you (as the mom), it's not really effective to the child either.  If you don't feel it, they don't feel it."  I kind of get that.  ETA: 'punishment' isn't really the best word here.  Consequence, maybe?

[Shelsi]

Yes, he probably is bored with it.  It's MUS for math and I try to convince him to move on to the next lesson if he knows the material but he refuses and does all the worksheets in each lesson.  Why?  Because he doesn't want to have to sit there and learn something new.  I have a really hard time dealing with this thought process because I am not driven that way at all - I purposely seek out challenges whereas he (and my dh) purposely seek out the path of least resistance. 

 

We are generally all together with schooling but he has ADHD so when dd & I are doing her school we can't be anywhere near him or he'll just stare at us and try to join in, answer for her, etc.

 

Up until today I was encouraging his ipod use during math.  He would put on his headphones and listen to music to drown out distractions and it helped quite a bit.  Now I'm not sure what we're going to do. 

[Mandylubug]

Is he worried about a number grade? Or is he just trying to hurry through?

 

My son gets frustrated as well. We took away the grade. I circle any that are wrong and we work them out orally together afterwards. I give praises on new material learned and we move on. If he isn't comparing his worth to a number he doesn't stress so much. I actually give my kids the manuals after each lesson and have them check their lessons and circle any they had wrong. It has really alleviated any stress during the day, they are more relaxed and get fewer wrong.

 

I agree with being present while he's working. Maybe have music playing aloud instead of through ear buds.

[Haiku]

I wouldn't punish him. He's nine. He'll probably cheat a few times. In fact, he'll probably do a lot of things he shouldn't do a few times. I don't think punishment for every wrongdoing is the answer.

Were it me, I would make him do the work over again with me sitting right there. I would ban the iPod during school time. And that would be it. Your son knows it's wrong. That's why he was trying to hide it. He doesn't need to be punished to know its wrong. At that point it's just retribution.

I had a very sneaky child. Punishing her didn't work. I was just very matter-of-fact with her, and she had to correct her transgressions. She's now on scholarship at a private university and making the Dean's list.

[Cosmos]

Up until today I was encouraging his ipod use during math.  He would put on his headphones and listen to music to drown out distractions and it helped quite a bit.  Now I'm not sure what we're going to do. 

 

Can you just delete the calculator app? Or another option would be to password protect it. Then once the music is playing he can only pause and adjust volume but not access any apps.

[kiana]

Password protecting the calculator may help in that case, or finding another way for him to listen to music with headphones. If the headphones are necessary for him to concentrate I wouldn't take it away.

[FriedClams]

I would punish for it. He's 9. He's not 4. He knows better - as evidenced by the fact that he was hiding things from you. He lied. He cheated. Twice in a couple of weeks. These are biggies for me that cannot be taken into adulthood. (And let me add, he's not a criminal. He's a smart little kid testing boundaries. We all did it. All our kids try it. It's growing up.)

 

To me, homeschooling requires a special trust between parent and student - that my TMs won't be looked at... that I can leave the room to potty without a student cheating.... He violated the trust. He needs to understand the importance of that and work to make it right.

 

I think the lack of electronics is reasonable. No iPod. Period. Not just during school. When I know it won't be used to cheat I'll return in.

 

Redoing 5 math lessons, on his own free time (to replace the school time he stole from you) is reasonable. No screens, fun or friends until they're done.

 

And I would add another layer so he starts to learn that doing it right once is better than redoing, and cheating is lying and serious business. This would entirely depend on the kid and their bent. Off hand I could see that cheating and lying mean you can't be trusted and perhaps losing some older kid privledges for a couple of days or working closely with mom instead of free time. As mom I'd be doing a lot of cleaning those couple of days.

[5LittleMonkeys]

This isn't related to the cheating but to the fact that you say he is bored with MUS but won't skip the practice pages that he doesn't really need.  Can you take the workbook away from him and only give him the pages he needs to do.  If he asks for the other pages when you know he doesn't need them tell him you shredded them.  And, I guess it does relate in that maybe if you can get him to move more quickly to work that is challenging him he won't be as inclined to cheat on the tests.  

[Cindyz]

We had similar situations.  They were different but similar.  Instead of framing it as a punishment, I considered natural social consequences related to what he did.  In your son's case, of course not being able to be trusted with the phone would be a big one.  "I'm sorry, but I can't trust that you will only listen to music and not cheat on your work.  It will take some time to earn that trust back with me."   My son cheated in a board game and because of that whenever he asked to be the banker for awhile he was told that he couldn't be trusted with that responsibility.  If you help him to see that being trusted has rewards associated with it, he may be more likely to try to show you that they can be trusted to earn the natural rewards that come from being a trustworthy person. 

[AmyontheFarm]

Since he liked his ipod for music.  I would still play music, my music and sit beside him as he worked on his math for the week.  I can just hear the beautiful sounds of Bach, Wagner, Beethoven and Mozart.   That could be torture, yes, but I tend to lean that way when a kid makes the same wrong choice twice in quick succession.   Helps them to not forget for a long time.  If they start to complain, I've been known to sing, loudly with my own made up words, until they just get back to work.

 

You'll need to give the ipod back at some point, perhaps you could institute a Ipod resting area when a test is going to take place.  Sort of like the teachers in my kids high school, tell the kids to put the electronics on the teacher's desk, before the test or exam starts.

[Kevin'sMom]

I may be a rebel here, but I don't think it is cheating when I use the spell checker or look up something in a dictionary. The idea is to simply learn words you can use later in writing, or that you will recognize in your reading. We do all the vocab and spelling on the dry erase board and keep track of what needs reinforcing. I don't think it should be a "test".....you never need to "cheat," in that case. You just learn words for the pleasure of learning them, and because it is useful. Honestly, I would just give him another chance to learn the words, redo the test, and tell him that if he needs more time to learn them, to let you know.

[Corraleno]

I wouldn't punish him. He's nine. He'll probably cheat a few times. In fact, he'll probably do a lot of things he shouldn't do a few times. I don't think punishment for every wrongdoing is the answer.

 

Were it me, I would make him do the work over again with me sitting right there. I would ban the iPod during school time. And that would be it. Your son knows it's wrong. That's why he was trying to hide it. He doesn't need to be punished to know its wrong. At that point it's just retribution.

 

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:

[Shelsi]

Well, dh came home and ds was telling him right away.  You know what he was saying?  "I am so mad I got caught!" sob sob sob.  No remorse, no sense of guilt over cheating, only feeling angry that he was caught.

 

Dh and I are going to talk about it tonight to figure out a fair punishment.  At this point I'm concerned that he's only upset he was caught.  He's also taken the stance that he was not cheating, he was just checking his work.  He 100% for sure knows that if he wants to use a calculator he has to ask me first.  Oh and he keeps telling dh, "I was just resting my hands under the table!  I wasn't trying to hide it!"  So we've added lying to the cheating. 

 

Thanks so much for the helpful ideas and thoughts.  It helps to hear how others would handle the situation. 

 

I'll see if I can figure out how to lock his ipod.  It's an old one but certainly there's something there I can do.  He may not be getting it back though as we've had trust issues with the ipod in the past (using it to surf youtube when specifically told not to, playing it when he wasn't supposed to). 

[AK_Mom4]

Well, dh came home and ds was telling him right away.  You know what he was saying?  "I am so mad I got caught!" sob sob sob.  No remorse, no sense of guilt over cheating, only feeling angry that he was caught.

 

Dh and I are going to talk about it tonight to figure out a fair punishment.  At this point I'm concerned that he's only upset he was caught.  He's also taken the stance that he was not cheating, he was just checking his work.  He 100% for sure knows that if he wants to use a calculator he has to ask me first.  Oh and he keeps telling dh, "I was just resting my hands under the table!  I wasn't trying to hide it!"  So we've added lying to the cheating. 

 

 

BTW - fairly age-appropriate for a 9yo to be mad they got caught rather than sorry that they broke a rule.  And the trying to reset the picture so they don't look guilty - also very very age appropriate.  It sounds like the whole perfectionist-thing (he is your oldest?) has taken over big-time.  That may be something to work on with him characterwise after the uproar dies down.

[Haiku]

Well, dh came home and ds was telling him right away.  You know what he was saying?  "I am so mad I got caught!" sob sob sob.  No remorse, no sense of guilt over cheating, only feeling angry that he was caught.

 

Dh and I are going to talk about it tonight to figure out a fair punishment.  At this point I'm concerned that he's only upset he was caught.  He's also taken the stance that he was not cheating, he was just checking his work.  He 100% for sure knows that if he wants to use a calculator he has to ask me first.  Oh and he keeps telling dh, "I was just resting my hands under the table!  I wasn't trying to hide it!"  So we've added lying to the cheating. 

 

I think this gives you a big insight into how your son feels about the situation. He didn't like doing the work, he tried to cheat to make it easier/faster/whatever, he's mad he got caught, and he's lying because he knows that he looks like the bad guy here. I think this is all completely normal and I think, honestly, that letting the issue drop is the best way to go. The more your harp on it or punish him, the more he will see himself as the victim. You can't punish someone into remorse. I'm sure he has some remorse because he let you down, but I don't really think that it's that huge of a deal to a 9 year old to cheat a little bit here or there, and I don't think it means he will grow up with a blighted character.

[Plink]

In addition to whatever punishment you decide upon, I would make sure to intentionally teach this child how to fail well.  I've written about it before, but in a nutshell, make sure that his fear of failure isn't controlling his actions.  Let him know that you EXPECT him to get a percentage of the questions wrong, to fall off his bike, and to make mistakes.  Give him opportunities to be lousy at something (a new sport, an instrument, writing).  Show him that you value those learning experiences, and that success isn't getting the right answer, but a process of improving yourself.  

 

 

[madteaparty]

I think my DS(also 9) cheated on a Singapore math CWP. I've no proof, but the fact that he did not show his work, and we were about 50/50 success rate at that point made me incline towards yes. He does not usually show his work though.

Anyway, I was very upset, but not sure as to what punishment would accomplish. I think Singapore Math CWP are punishment enough, LOL.

 

What I did do is remove the temptation, which involved me tearing off the answer section (which I then misplaced, so in the end I punished myself I guess ;)

 

As much as possible, I tend towards removing the temptation nowadays.

[Cindyz]

I agree with those saying lecturing and punishments won't work.  I also don't believe removing the temptation is the best solution.  Trying out cheating and/or lying are best when they are at this age.  Let them face temptation and feel good about succeeding or let them fail and learn a lesson with your guidance. You have to make the consequences of lying and cheating meaningful.  What does it mean when you can't be trusted?  Would you rather have more or less freedom in your life?  How does it feel when those who you care about trust you and give you more responsibility compared to when they don't trust you?  How does it feel to receive accolades for something that was cheated compared to when it was something done honestly? These are some of the questions that have to be answered and pointed out via future actions and natural consequences.  Just telling him these things will be unlikely to work.  I think it's taught over time.  At least that's how we are handling it. 

[texasmama]

If this was my child, I would up the supervision level I provide during school.  He is in a habit of cheating, and this will help break it.

[Shelsi]

In addition to whatever punishment you decide upon, I would make sure to intentionally teach this child how to fail well.  I've written about it before, but in a nutshell, make sure that his fear of failure isn't controlling his actions.  Let him know that you EXPECT him to get a percentage of the questions wrong, to fall off his bike, and to make mistakes.  Give him opportunities to be lousy at something (a new sport, an instrument, writing).  Show him that you value those learning experiences, and that success isn't getting the right answer, but a process of improving yourself.  

 

Yes we do this and often.  I've been doing it for years ever since I noticed that ds would not try something unless he could do it with 100% perfection.  He quits anything he may fail at. 

 

Frankly, I haven't seen any improvement in all my years of trying to help him with this.  Sometimes I think it's classic nurture vs nature and in this case it's "nature."  He didn't walk until almost 18 mos old even though it was obvious he had the motor skills and balance long before then.  Sure enough, when he walked he did it perfectly without ever falling for the most part.  I could give a million more examples like this.  I model failing, we talk about how we actually learn more from mistakes, we talk about how sad it would be to not try new things just because of a fear of failure, and so on.  I am totally open to ideas on that front. 

 

As for the cheating & today's incident there's no chance that he won't be punished.  Maybe it's because my inlaws are professors and we hear stories about students they've had who have cheated, who are then kicked out of school and basically not allowed in another college for a minimum of 5 years.  I'm actually a pretty laid back parent, I take A LOT in stride, let them get away with stuff, but I do take a hard line when it comes to 3 things and cheating is one of them.  And the kids know this. 

[73349]

I think I'd suspend him from school in favor of a unit study on honor, maybe for a week... and then increase the workload afterward to catch him up (under close supervision).

I could see seeking out books about honest people. Books about dishonest people who got caught. Stories about people who were hurt by their own or someone else's dishonesty. Copywork on the subject. Maybe a short essay. But no academics until there was evidence of a lightbulb, because you don't want him working to become a more agile cheater instead of learning the material.

 

Some of the tendency seems like just his personality, but if you're not already, listen to yourself to make sure you're not praising him for getting things right or for doing things quickly in a way that makes those more rewarding than slogging through.

[happypamama]

I wouldn't punish, exactly, as in, I wouldn't enact some other unrelated consequence, like no dessert or grounding, not for that. What I would do is make it impossible for him to cheat. Take away the iPod during school, keep him with you at all times, whatever. If you can't be trusted on your own, you have to have the adult help you. Same as if I had a toddler who wouldn't stay with me in a parking lot -- I wouldn't punish for that, but I would be sure to hold the toddler's hand or carry him or otherwise make it so he couldn't run away. When the child showed me that he could comply with the rules, then I'd ease up.

[Joker]

He shouldn't have access to an iPod during school. I always turned on music so my one that needed it could have it. My other didn't care if there was or was not music. I also kept my TM's somewhere inaccessible. I never caught mine cheating and never expected to, but I also didn't give them ample opportunities to do so. Neither does their public middle school they are now attending. All I would do is have him redo the work he cheated on (while I am supervising) and make sure he no longer has easy access to devices used to cheat. I would also make it a point to be more visible while he is doing work. Mine always did their work at the table together even though they weren't doing the same levels/grades/work.

[albeto.]

Yes we do this and often.  I've been doing it for years ever since I noticed that ds would not try something unless he could do it with 100% perfection.  He quits anything he may fail at. 

 

Frankly, I haven't seen any improvement in all my years of trying to help him with this.  

 

It sounds like you might have an anxious kid on your hands. In my experience, punishment only increases the anxiety [what if I get caught again? what if my punishment is really bad? what if I can never do math? what if they find out I'm as stupid as I feel? what if... what if... what if?]. Punishment only puts the pressure on more to solve his problem "better." The challenge you have ahead of you is to help him identify his problem, and help him brainstorm more appropriate ways to solve it. I like the idea upthread about giving him opportunities to fail at something that doesn't hold a lot of value to him, just to give him the experience of failing without any big deal. Maybe you can play card and board games with him and give a voice to the feelings he might be having. Let him hear you, let him correct you. Let him know he's not the first or only one to feel such pressure. Let him know lots (most?) people feel this kind of pressure, and ask him how does he think others deal with it? Surely he's noticed that others fail and they don't get worked up. How so? I would plan this as part of the school day as it's learning skills he'll need in life. In the meantime, I'd learn about anxiety, what you can do to help alleviate some of it, what he can do to identify it and learn to think logically, react emotionally. I think ultimately the punishment will teach him the very skill you don't want him to learn - how to hide failure.

[Plink]

He quits anything he may fail at.

I wouldn't give him the option of quitting. Some kids need to be forced through the anguish of not being the best. My DD with learning disabilities, for example, would happily curl into herself and avoid trying anything new because she has such a hard time learning. It is hard. It is scary. And it is very, very frustrating for her.

 

Unfortunately, I have to fight my momma bear instinct and avoid protecting this child from challenges. Ignoring the tears and complaints isn't easy. It is okay for things to be hard, but it is not okay to quit without effort or cheat to get out of work.

 

Instruments and sports have been very good for both of us to work through this.

[Farrar]

So he went around the corner and you knew he had looked?  Why not stop him then?  Or you only knew because he got a perfect score?  Why crumple the paper?  That seems designed to humiliate him, which I think it more likely to hurt than help, though I admit it's the sort of thing I would be inclined to do when I'm really angry.

 

I agree strongly with stopping him from cheating by staying on him like a hawk from now on.  Play music through a different device (long cord headphones to a computer?  Just aloud for the room?).  Don't let him get up in the middle of a quiz.  Or if he needs to, casually follow him past the bathroom or to the kitchen for that glass of water.  Don't be nasty about it, but the message is, you lost my trust and now you have to re-earn it.

 

And I do think the engaging schoolwork and not being bored thing is important.  I think of school as a sort of contract between the kids and myself.  Their end is to try their best, work hard, be willing to try new things, etc.  My end is to keep things engaging and interesting, to push them, but not too much.  Not all work can be "fun" but the balance has to be a good one and I don't think any subject should be too easy or unengaging long term.  If I don't fulfill my end of the bargain, it doesn't excuse something like cheating or whining, but I do want to examine that question if they behave badly in school time.

[stripe]

I caught ds, 9, cheating about 2 weeks ago on a vocabulary quiz.  He was around the corner, my teacher's manual was over there, and he peeked at the answers. 

I think you have an obligation not to leave the answers lying around. As soon as you do, you cannot complain that someone cheated. You have to set things up better -- this is your responsibility.

 

I would let it go at this point, and do a better job setting up an environment where the answers are not in view.

[Jane Elliot]

How I would handle consequences would be based entirely on the temperament and history of the individual child, so I don't feel qualified to give an answer on that, since I don't know your child.

 

However, from a purely practical standpoint, I suggest you get a locking filing cabinet for your teachers manuals.

[Shelsi]

So he went around the corner and you knew he had looked?  Why not stop him then?  Or you only knew because he got a perfect score?  Why crumple the paper?  That seems designed to humiliate him, which I think it more likely to hurt than help, though I admit it's the sort of thing I would be inclined to do when I'm really angry.

 

I agree strongly with stopping him from cheating by staying on him like a hawk from now on.  Play music through a different device (long cord headphones to a computer?  Just aloud for the room?).  Don't let him get up in the middle of a quiz.  Or if he needs to, casually follow him past the bathroom or to the kitchen for that glass of water.  Don't be nasty about it, but the message is, you lost my trust and now you have to re-earn it.

 

And I do think the engaging schoolwork and not being bored thing is important.  I think of school as a sort of contract between the kids and myself.  Their end is to try their best, work hard, be willing to try new things, etc.  My end is to keep things engaging and interesting, to push them, but not too much.  Not all work can be "fun" but the balance has to be a good one and I don't think any subject should be too easy or unengaging long term.  If I don't fulfill my end of the bargain, it doesn't excuse something like cheating or whining, but I do want to examine that question if they behave badly in school time.

 

No the first time he was doing his quiz around the corner at the school desk while I was working on stuff with dd.  He suddenly popped his around the corner and started explaining randomly that he just dropped something and that's why he was up; he was just super guilty sounding.  So I went over there, noticed I'd left the TM on our other desk (not something I ordinarily do btw, it was just an oversight), and asked him which ones he'd cheated on.  He fessed up right away. 

 

Crumpling up his work and making him re-do it did not cause him any humiliation.  But it did shock him which is exactly what I was going for.  Obviously it didn't shock him enough. 

 

Dh & I talked last night and decided the ipod is gone forever because we've had tons of issues with ds & the ipod and ds had been told that one more "trust buster" with the ipod would result in permanent removal.  He also has to re-do his math lesson to show us he actually does know how to do it on his own without a calculator. 

 

Dh also had him call father in law last night and ask him what happens to his students he finds cheating.  Ds does not embarrass or humiliate easily (at all?  I've never once seen him embarrassed over anything?) so ds was not embarrassed or ashamed to ask FIL.  He just had a matter of fact convo with him, then explained why he was asking the question, and then FIL talked to him some more about it.  FIL & MIL are really fair gentle people - I know they didn't shame him or anything. 

[Jane Elliot]

It sounds like you came up with some great solutions that fit the child.

 

I just wanted to say: What a beautiful, beautiful blog!

[happypamama]

I think having him talk to your FIL was a great idea! It gave him a real world insight into what happens if you cheat, and it gave him someone else besides his parents, and presumably someone else he loves and trusts, who can be an authority figure too.

[ElizabethB]

It you want more real life examples, there is currently an ongoing one in the Air Force about cheating on tests, people are getting fired, it is a better lesson to learn at 9 than when your career depend on it. Just google "Air Force missle test cheating" and you can find info from a variety of sources.