Gwenny Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I know I'd never do it, but I am incredibly tempted to put my 2 kids into public school. I feel like they need at least a 3 month "sentence" to straighten them out. The amount of whining they do is astonishing! Every single subject (no matter how easy it is) is met with protest. After simply opening the grammar book and looking at the lesson, my daughter started to cry! And we hadn't even started it! She cries and whines at EVERY subject. She even cried today because I wanted her to read. This is a girl who reads for HOURS every day; even while eating and brushing teeth. I'd blame it on puberty, but my 7 year old son is no happier. We only school for a few hours/day so they really do far less work than a public school kid. I wish I had the guts to send them to school for the rest of the year so they'd realize how good they have it made. If you had a kid that cried and fussed over everything subject (and chore), how would you respond? What do you say? I've no clue and it just makes me angry. I know getting angry isn't the answer, but I don't know what sort of punishments to try. I've tried to be calm and walk away, but then the work isn't getting done. I really stink at "fostering a love for learning" and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 When my kid did that I took away all screens for a month. It worked like a charm. Sending them to school could backfire--they could like it better than homeschooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Definitely not as "punishment." Before doing that, I'd take some serious time to evaluate my instructional materials and my methods, to see if something *I'm* doing is causing the behavior. Children don't have the ability to analyze what they're being asked to do and make mature, adult statements about what makes them unhappy. All they can do is whine and cry and complain. Also, they probably know their parents are going to make them do it, anyway, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I've decided to quit using public school as a threat and have switched to threating to give them a fully computer based school where they can back talk the screen if they don't want to do the work. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Well, maybe not as punishment. But I can tell you that I would absolutely not tolerate that kind of behavior (regularly - everybody has a bad day now and then). I tell my children that homeschooling is a privilege which they earn by cooperating. I have plenty of other things that I could be doing with my time, and there is no way I will spend my day with people who are whining, complaining, and generally making me miserable. It is my job to see that they get an education - one way or another. If they don't cooperate with me teaching them at home, they will go back to ps. Maybe this works at our house because my children have been in ps, and they don't want to go back, I don't know. But I would definitely see the situation you describe as intolerable and I would look at the dynamics that are leading to it, with a goal of solving it. One way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I don't know what you expect by, when they're unhappy, saying either school/online program would be worse and they'll be begging you to come back and see how good they have it. This just doesn't sound effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73349 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Nope. But I might give them a copy of the local school's schedule, including homework, for comparison. When DS occasionally does his "OH NO THE HORROR" routine, I first show him one part with a gentle, "Let's try a little bitty piece. Mommy will show you." Then he does it and remarks on how simple it was, and I sort of mimic the attitude he displayed at the beginning (back of hand to forehead and all). He laughs. After a while, he has gotten the idea that I don't give him anything he can't do. If you have an intimidating-looking book, do you have a printer that will copy a page? If so, you can make a copy and cut part of the page up, highlight, etc., as a scaffold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Before doing that, I'd take some serious time to evaluate my instructional materials and my methods, to see if something *I'm* doing is causing the behavior. Children don't have the ability to analyze what they're being asked to do and make mature, adult statements about what makes them unhappy. All they can do is whine and cry and complain. Also, they probably know their parents are going to make them do it, anyway, lol. I agree with this. As I posed above, I took away all screens for a month when my son was whining and crying about *everything*, but what I failed to mention is that that was *after* I knew that my choices of resources and my teaching methods were not the problem. When either of my kids would have regular meltdowns during a particular subject, I would analyze it very carefully to try to understand exactly what was causing the problem. Sometimes that would prompt a change in the resource we were using and sometimes it would prompt a change in the way I was using a particular resource. Sometimes it prompted me to drop a subject entirely. Every time I made a change, it was for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 There used to be a couple weeks in the spring, right before the "option to the next district over" closed that I would threaten to send them to PS. (As soon as the option date passed, so did the threat. There is no way I'd send them to the school a few blocks over & they know it.) I don't do this anymore, for a variety of reasons. But, let's talk about this fussiness & attitude you are facing. The amount of whining they do is astonishing! Every single subject (no matter how easy it is) is met with protest. After simply opening the grammar book and looking at the lesson, my daughter started to cry! She cries and whines at EVERY subject. If you had a kid that cried and fussed over everything subject (and chore), how would you respond? ----> Something is wrong. Very wrong. I think you need a heart-to-heart with both kids. Individually. Is this just with schoolwork or is it with their attitudes all the time with housework & behaving in general? I'm going to assume this is specifically something that comes up with school work. I'd loosely start with the "end of the year eval" questions from MerryAtHope: What subject(s) are your favorites? What do you like about them? What subjects are not your favorites? What specifically do you not like about them? What area have you improved the most in this year? What area are you struggling with or would like to improve in? If you could change something in how we do things, what would you change? What would you most like me to understand about you? What is one goal you hope to achieve this (next) year? Either the work is too easy, too hard, or you have an overall behavior problem (not just schoolwork). Please don't take the first two as a criticism of you. It isn't. If you have an overall behavior problem, that's a whole 'nother matter than just a schoolwork thing. I need to point out that my house is not a whine-free zone. (My first one of these surveys with dd#2 included answers like, "I hate all of them (subjects)" and "I would not do school at all." Things have improved immensely since then, although every year I get more good advice from my own kids.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakg Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 My DS9 gets like this when he needs a break from school. Sometimes a week off is very therapeutic and he is happy to get back into it afterwards. If the crying is about one particular subject, I usually re-evaluate the curriculum. Having said that, I think my DS looks at school like I used to look at going to work - really - who wants to do it? Try and make it fun, change the scenery, work in another room, set up on a picnic table outside (actually if its winter there, that might not work right now)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berta Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I didn't use it for punishment, but I had to send my youngest to ps last year for 2nd grade because I had to work. She loved it. This year we are back to homeschooling (hopefully for good) and even though she loved ps, she loves homeschooling much more. There have been times when she gave me a hard time doing something and I have told her that if she doesn't want to do her work at home, I will drop her back off at the public school. She gives me a hardy NOOOOOOOOOO.....and gets her work done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLMom Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 No, I wouldn't do it as a punishment, but I wouldn't tolerate that type of behavior. If you try everything you can think of as a punishment (taking things away they like, making them doing extra chores, etc) and that doesn't straighten them out, I would consider it. That is what I had to do with a couple of mine. They just work better for someone else. Relationship is the most important thing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I agree with PP's who suggest to first make sure that your expectations are reasonable and age appropriate. I think that with our oldest children, it is very common for us to expect too much. And when the oldest whines, the youngers learn the same behavior. It can quickly become epidemic. When my kids whine, then they need to practice not whining. If they say something with a whiny voice, I make them say the same thing with a normal tone. If it had become epidemic, then I would focus on that before everything else. I would take a short break from school. Then I would add subjects back in one at a time. I would talk about our goal to eliminate whining and provide incentives. (I personally like to use marbles in a jar. When the jar is filled up, they get something special. You can put a marble in the jar for every X minutes that do not whine.) Before giving them their school work, we would role play getting assignments and accepting them without whining. Doing it this way might also give you some insight into why they are whining if you suddenly see more whining than previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwenny Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Like I said, I wouldn't send them to public school, but I do fantasize about it. In my fantasy, they would hate school and beg to return home. After their return, they would be model students who can't wait to start their day. Sort of like when your dishwasher or washing machine breaks and you have to wash everything by hand. When the dishwasher is finally fixed a year later, you really appreciate all the work it's doing for you. It's definitely a discipline problem, but I need a plan and I need to stick to it. My son gets 1/2 hr of video games/day, and I take that away for whining about school work. That helps, but every day he wakes to whine again. My daughter is harder as I can't think of anything to take away except time with friends. The way she behaves, she'll never leave the house. I often see it written that a behavior will not be tolerated. What exactly do you do when the intolerable behavior is done? I can say that I won't tolerate the tears, but I can't stop them from flowing. For example, my daughter is reviewing long division, she understands it completely, but simply hates it. As soon as I pull out the book, she starts crying. What exactly do I say and do? I could tell her that she won't get to play outside today because of her behavior, but that won't stop the tears and whining. When I first started homeschooling, I was always trying to find the right curriculum, but I've long since given up. I've never found a single subject that my kids enjoy. They truly hate any type of work. My daughter loves to read, but that's all. My son doesn't like anything. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have a kid ask to do schoolwork. Are there really kids that want to do long division or outline a paragraph? I need a book that will tell me exactly what to say and how to respond to their behavior. And I know that to those reading this, my kids sound really rotten, but they are actually great kids otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 :grouphug: and we don't mean to sound judgmental, either. It's really hard, it sucks, and when kids have gotten into bad habits it is hard to break them. Since you said you might want a book that tells you exactly what to say, I might suggest "How To Talk So Kids WIll Learn" by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. It really does offer extremely concrete steps you can take to change habits - theirs and yours. I know that for me, what makes the "threat" of ps work, is that I mean it. I think kids can tell when you are just voicing a fantasy but that you'd never do what you say. One of my parenting mantras is that I don't *ever* say something I don't mean, that I wouldn't be willing to back up with action. It makes me choose my words carefully, but you better believe that my kids know that I mean what I say. They have both been marched out of parties, public events, or other places, or had their evening end with immediate bedtime if they push me after I've drawn the line. I think that this kind of consistency is really important. Kids do want and need to be able to count on the fact that if you say something, it is real. At least potentially. Don't get me wrong, it would break my heart to send my kids back to ps, but I truly believe that I do not deserve to be treated badly. I am worth more than that. It's important for my kids to see that their behavior is about more than just them. It affects me, it affects the kind of family we live in, and the potential happiness of all of us. Good luck, Gwenny. It sounds like none of you are having much fun at the moment. I think this is an opportunity to take a deep breath, a step back, and think about the kind of life you want to be creating for yourself and your family. You do have power to change things. There are some other good books I could suggest (Parenting Without Power Struggles by Susan Stiffleman comes immediately to mind). But it will start when you decide that the situation is intolerable - a strong word, I know - and decide that things will change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Let me just share that I have a friend who did just what you are suggesting. When her oldest was in 4th grade, she sent them to school for the first time for exactly the kinds of things you are describing. It turned out great for her 2nd ds, because he had special needs that he got a lot of help with. But she does regret it for her oldest, because she doesn't think he was well-served by the public school. So people do it, and can work out just fine. And for some it doesn't. You have to know your kids and not make a reactionary decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momling Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I find when my kids act like this, it's because it's worked for them before... but when the action doesn't get their desired response, eventually they'll stop. Has there been times when their whining has been successful.. when you have given in to their requests or bargained with them? If so, you might have inadvertently created a situation where they believe you will give in to their demands if they just whine and cry enough. And I would send them to school if we were unable to work together... not as punishment, just as a way to maintain our relationship and keep them learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 One thing that might help is if you were to give them some control over their school day. For example, my DS has some subjects that he hates and some that he likes. I print out his list of assignments, but he gets to choose what order he does things in. He is slowly learning the value of getting the subjects he doesn't like "out of the way" early in the day. He's learning to alternate subjects he likes with subjects he doesn't, "hard" subjects with "easy" subjects. And by letting him choose what to do and when, he can do what he's in the mood for at any given time. That's not to say things go perfectly. We still struggle some days, but I find those days to be fewer as he's learning how to plan his time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 What if they love public school? Some children do thrive in brick and mortar. I wouldn't do this unless I were willing to deal with the possibility of leaving them there if it works for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Is everybody getting enough exercise and sleep? Reading your posts it sounds like all three of you are feeling strained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Like I said, I wouldn't send them to public school, but I do fantasize about it. In my fantasy, they would hate school and beg to return home. After their return, they would be model students who can't wait to start their day. Sort of like when your dishwasher or washing machine breaks and you have to wash everything by hand. When the dishwasher is finally fixed a year later, you really appreciate all the work it's doing for you. It's definitely a discipline problem, but I need a plan and I need to stick to it. My son gets 1/2 hr of video games/day, and I take that away for whining about school work. That helps, but every day he wakes to whine again. My daughter is harder as I can't think of anything to take away except time with friends. The way she behaves, she'll never leave the house. I often see it written that a behavior will not be tolerated. What exactly do you do when the intolerable behavior is done? I can say that I won't tolerate the tears, but I can't stop them from flowing. For example, my daughter is reviewing long division, she understands it completely, but simply hates it. As soon as I pull out the book, she starts crying. What exactly do I say and do? I could tell her that she won't get to play outside today because of her behavior, but that won't stop the tears and whining. When I first started homeschooling, I was always trying to find the right curriculum, but I've long since given up. I've never found a single subject that my kids enjoy. They truly hate any type of work. My daughter loves to read, but that's all. My son doesn't like anything. I can't even imagine what it would be like to have a kid ask to do schoolwork. Are there really kids that want to do long division or outline a paragraph? I need a book that will tell me exactly what to say and how to respond to their behavior. And I know that to those reading this, my kids sound really rotten, but they are actually great kids otherwise. If your daughter understands long division completely, why are you doing it? If you must do it, can you change how you do it so she is the teacher to you? You do the work, she corrects your problems. For the screen time idea, in our house, it isn't that screen time disappears as punishment, it is that I personally notice a big upswing in whiny behavior when there is screen time, so I get rid of it from our life in general. Hmm... has me realizing that the whining of the last few days could be a coincidence, or it could be that we have had the TV on more again... it happens when DH is home more. It hasn't happened much, but when my kids are difficult about doing some schoolwork (and I know it is just here and there, not a general problem with a subject or whatever) I will ask them if they will apologize and fix their attitude, or go work by themself in their room. Once it meant missing a read aloud. Once it meant doing copywork in their room. It is motivating for my kids because neither of them want to miss anything we are doing together. YMMV. I'm sorry you are in a tough spot. Winter is sometimes hard, just because of the weather. Holidays can make things harder too. Doing evaluative questions or a good tea/cookie time discussing what is working well and what could be improved and how with your kids could be a great way to make a positive change together in this tough season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoGal Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I haven't used public school as a punishment, but we have talked about how legally they need to be in school. If they aren't willing to do their schoolwork at home, I would have to send them to school and it would be fine, but I'd rather homeschool them because it is more fun and we learn a lot! For the whining/complaining - we had that problem. What I did was give them a "checkmark" for every time they stayed calm during the day when they normally complain (for example, staying calm when starting school, when getting something wrong, when dinner is not their favorite dish, when it is time to brush teeth). After school, they could play their DSes for one minute per check. It took awhile, but things definitely improved! Note: They can express their displeasure in a calm way (for example, they could say, "I don't really like baked potatoes."), just not whine/complain. They have been handling things a lot better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staceyshoe Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 A couple of years ago, I was sorely tempted to enroll my oldest in public school just to lessen the complaining and help him appreciate homeschool. We started paying attention to when the schoolbus was picking up and dropping off children in our neighborhood. This time of the year, it's while it's still dark in the a.m. and almost dark in the p.m. Then we pointed out that those children would have to go home and do homework, eat dinner, get to bed, and do it all over again. We pointed out that we only get together with his schoolage cousins on the weekend because they do homework in the evening and need to get to bed early so they can catch the bus at 7am. It became a regular discussion in our family. Sometimes we got caught behind the schoolbus when we were returning from a fun activity that wouldn't have been possible if he was in public school. Sometimes we were outside playing when the kids got dropped off (and, yes, I may have orchestrated that timing a few times!), and he suddenly became aware that he had been playing for 2 hours and had no homework. Homeschooling is a privilege, and many children do not have that privilege. It took some time, but that finally did sink in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckens Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 1) I would not use public school as a punishment, but I would use it as a "What we're doing isn't working; let's try something different." 2) I would ask my dc what the solution is. Example: Dd7 complains whenever she needs to do math facts (on XtraMath). I'm sorry, but math facts are something that are important to learn. I list what we have used: flash cards worksheets math board games (4+) math computer games (3+) games on the Nook (2+) And she complains about every.single.one. So I've told her that she isn't allowed to complain unless she comes up with an alternative for learning her math facts. I've come up with, and invested money in, several (listed above). If her friends (in public school or as homeschoolers) are doing a different method for learning math facts that is effective and she won't complain about, I would love to hear about it. Until she can offer a solution, on this subject, I refuse to change to a different program. 3) Link a reward to schoolwork. We used tv and money. If dd7 wants to watch extra tv (she gets 30 minutes free/day), she must complete a certain amount of schoolwork. (For us, this is 4 subjects, but different families have different expectations). If she is complaining about this, I tell her that I am not the one to complain to; I'm not the one dragging my feet about schoolwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 If you had a kid that cried and fussed over everything subject (and chore), how would you respond? What do you say?. Walking away and leaving my boys to cry and fuss all they want help. It prevents me from getting upset and if they want to waste time whining so be it. Talking away screen time or game time does not help, my kids are not game driven and could not care less if they do not get to play games whether it is Legos or ipad games. Rewards have never worked for them. I can ask them to pick their reward to work for and they would still not be interested. They had never been motivated by rewards, nothing have catch their fancy to that extent yet. Food has an emotional effect on my older. Granola bars has a calming effect on him while sugary food or food with too much coloring cause a temporary spike in being "hyper-emotional". It is not just having something to chew on but also the slow release of food that helps him. Food has no effect on my younger. My boys do want to go to public school and older was in public school for two years. Sending them to school would be seen as a treat instead of a punishment. There is no homework for K-5 for my neighborhood school because parents are against it, so pulling the homework card won't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Anybody ever noticed that a sudden shift in events has an impact on whining? I remember one morning when whining was winding up a hawk sailed into the yard and had a dive at one of our chickens. This resulted in flying Mom bolting from the table and galloping full speed to the chicken yard with two boys in hot pursuit. Chicken was fine (hid in the okra) and we all came back to the table about 15 minutes after the incident and all the whines were gone. Didn't show up for the rest of the day. I've also had days when I was whining and ready for the day to be over only to have something very interesting crop up that made my day. Whines gone. I don't know how that plays into this conversation on whining, but I guess my point would be that to banish the whines requires a change of attitude and heart or they don't really go away. I can self-talk all I want to get myself out of bed and to work when I don't want to, and that's fine and works at least short term but nothing beats that internal shift job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoxcell Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Loss of privileges and/or extra chores is what we do for whining. I do not threaten things that I will not follow through on(at least I try my best not to). PS is not an option for us. I do not think any school should be looked on as a punishment. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Maybe a redo? If they start whining, they need to start the day over. Go up to room, and than come down when they are ready not to whine. They can whine in their room all they like. I would make sure that their room was rather boring. I know for my son, not with whining, but if he had a behavior that was inappropriate, I would have him go up to his room to think about what he was upset about. I told him he could come down when he was ready to talk it out. I was surprised how oftern he would be up their for 30 minutes or more. He would usually come down ready to talk and the behavior would be better. I read somewhere about the redo. For example, if you wanted them to line the shoes up in the hall but they threw them in a pile, you have them redo it. I liked this because instead of launching into a lecture, maybe inadvertantly shaming the child about what they should have done and than punishing, it gives them a chance to do what was asked and end on a good note. Like someone else mentioned, letting them decide what subject order they will do things in might help. If they choose when the dreaded subject was they had to do, maybe they would be ready for it and not whine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 that sounds so frustrating. hugs!! i don't have any answers, but I will think on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Oldest had a pity-me day. :nopity: We've been working on what she can do to 'reset' herself. She decided she would go for a walk (on a VERY chilly day). Came back much better and completed her schoolday without any (more) tears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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