WWYD - Educational Neglect

[shinyhappypeople]

What would you do if  you saw what you believed to be educational neglect?

 

How do YOU personally define educational neglect?  Does it differ than that of your state/province?

 

Would your first response differ depending on the age of the child?  

 

This is something I'm wrestling with IRL, though for obvious reasons I'm giving no details here.

[Dory]

12 yo that hasn't been taught to read and has no known learning problems. Just hasn't been taught to read. I saw that as educational neglect. 10yo that hasn't made it through 1st grade math and again, no known learning problems, I consider that neglect. Basically, any child that I see as not being actively taught in some way and being encouraged to move forward (slow learning is still learning) is suffering from educational neglect by my definition. It's not about meeting my standard of education, because I know I'm a perfectionist. Homes where the kids don't have access to material to at least play and learn themselves on some level is pretty severe educational neglect as I see it. There is way too much of it done by parents that wanted to bubble wrap their kids from the world and yet aren't really willing to take on the responsibility of teaching them.

 

I honestly don't know how to respond to those. There was one where it was just a case of the mom feeling a little overwhelmed and avoiding it all. I befriended her and starting sharing stuff with her and getting excited over the things that she did well and swapping suggestions (suggestions are rarely well received unless I am willing to hear some coming back my way, it feels less demeaning if it's a two way thing). Her kids are slowly catching up. There have been others I have been watching and not knowing whether to say or not say something. By 10 if there isn't some sort of foundation I would think it would start getting hard to catch up.

[dbmamaz]

Two of the first homeschoolers I met, after I started homeschooling, had teens who stayed up all night playing video games and slept all day.  The moms were providing nothing like a typical education, and considered themselves radical unschoolers, of the bend that, kids will figure it out themselves.  I think if the kids ASKED for educational materials, they would find some for them, but that rarely happened.  They both were perfectly comfortable admitting that they did the end-of-year tests WITH their kids, telling them the answer and why.  

 

Both moms had started out with the kids in school, had good (physical/mental health) reasons for withdrawing them, made SOME attempts at vaguely organized school, and then decided it was fine to just let the kids do their own thing. 

 

It was pretty horrifying to me, but the families were otherwise functional.  One of them had a family plumbing business and one ended up raising alpacas.  I decided it was none of my business.  

 

I did meet others who were about the same level, through those two.  And it was none of my business.

 

now, if i was close with a family and they were just kind of lost, and the kids were clearly reaching out for help, I'd feel compelled to intervene.  But the families I met were all firmly of the belief that they were doing what was best for their family.  

 

[Hunter]

I've only seen one case of educational neglect, and that mom didn't want to homeschool, but was pressured to do so by her church. I don't blame her, but her church.

 

I love academics, and stressed them with my boys, but I have lived in multiple cultures and know there is more to life than academics. "Education" is more than what is taught in western public schools.

 

Other than the type of case that I saw, most families that are neglecting their children educationally are neglecting them in more important areas. The total situation of neglect needs to be dealt with if possible. Other times disrupting a dysfunctional family just adds more dysfunction, rather than solutions.

 

Kids that are receiving inferior homeschooling are often children that will receive inferior public schooling, too. I think it's very important to compare each individual homeschool with the REALITY of the options available to THAT family.

 

I think the child's body and soul are as important--or maybe more important--than their mind. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, but I've seen bodies and souls wasted, and that was worse. Sometimes a mom will want to protect a child from bullying, or a certain type of worldview, or too much stress, at the expense of academics, and I don't alway think that is wrong.

[regentrude]

I would find this extremely difficult to judge. I would probably draw the line where there are other forms of neglect present.

 

I know many unschoolers IRL, who follow no curriculum, do no direct teaching, but create an atmosphere rich in learning experiences, spend a lot of time engaged and interacting with their children, foster their children's interests. Those children do not learn according to a public school time table and are in many cases academically behind same age ps peers. Definitely NOT what I would want from a home education - but I would hesitate to label this educational neglect, because the parents show a great deal of involvement with their kids and choose this approach based on information and research.

I regard this very differently from a family with a similar lack of formal instruction, where the parents are not giving their children time and attention, but are neglecting them altogether.

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes, I would report it.  I would contact my local child welfare agency and ask how to go about reporting it if I have a very good idea that educational neglect was going on.

Even children with learning disabilities are schooled to some extent.  Some disabilities can be worked around and if a parent is unwilling to find out how to help their child with disabilities then the state will have to intervene. 

 

These are exactly the cases that give homeschooling a bad name and bring on government regulation for everyone who homeschools.  Homeschooling is about educating children.  Not educating children is not homeschooling.

 

If parents aren't teaching their late elementary aged kids reading, writing and math regularly then there's a problem. Someone else needs to teach them. I've seen unschoolers do a great job with their kids using unconventional methods. So,  I'm not opposed to unconvnetional methods. If they are unable to do so with unconventional methods then they need to change their approach. If they choose not use any methods then someone else needs to teach their kids for them.

 

[ocelotmom]

I'm not sure where I'd draw the line in regards to reporting. Probably where the educational neglect was combined with other forms of neglect or abuse.

 

I'm inclined to agree with this. Or if the child was being actively prevented from pursuing educational interests.

[regentrude]

Or if the child was being actively prevented from pursuing educational interests.

 

Like parents who prevent their daughter from pursuing a rigorous high school education because she is a girl and supposed to be married and have children, so anything beyond the basics would be a waste? Educational neglect or "parental right"?

[ocelotmom]

Like parents who prevent their daughter from pursuing a rigorous high school education because she is a girl and supposed to be married and have children, so anything beyond the basics would be a waste? Educational neglect or "parental right"?

 

I was thinking more extreme than that - eg. not allowing them to learn to read at all. But, in this purely hypothetical situation, I don't know exactly where I'd draw the line. Realistically, I'd have a serious problem with someone actively preventing their child from being able to graduate high school, but I'm not sure at what point that would translate into "reportable" in absence of other abuse.

[FO4UR]

I agree with the thought that if there are other forms of neglect going on, immediate action needs to be taken.  If you think you can have a positive influence, try to help.  If the parents simply neglect the children, I'd be tempted to report the overall neglect.  I would not necessarily pinpoint the educational neglect.

 

 

Is this a temporary thing?  Is the family going through a crisis?  Or trying to heal from a crisis that happened last year?

 

 

Are you *sure* educational neglect is going on?  (Personally, I avoid having my kids answer quiz questions for other's observations. Not many people know what we do unless I feel safe telling them, and I don't talk with people irl who have a very narrow view of education.  fwiw)  

 

 

Are the parents well-meaning, but clueless?  I think there is hope, if so.  

 

If the parents are purposefully neglecting their dc's education, there will be other neglect/abuse going on.  The other stuff is what I would look into reporting.  I've seen educational neglect, but it was one family out of a hundred HS families that I've met.  Those kids need to be out of the home, and not simply thrown into ps during the day.

 

 

That said, I do know some amazing families that unschool.  They have been accused of educational neglect, and yet their 18-23yo dc are college-going, professional, involved in their communities, and they are happy...and always have interesting contributions to the conversation when we get together.  It's extremely stressful for these families to deal with threats of reporting them, and for their sake I would NOT report at ALL if the only neglect/abuse found in the home is educational.

[mommymilkies]

I would have to be 100% sure and have a clear first hand experience with what is going on in their life.  It may appear neglectful on the outside, but for example if you're judging a 10 yo who can't read, you might not know about a learning disorder that the family might not advertise. Or the child might have ODD or other learning disabilities or behavioral disorders that might not be evident to outsiders.  So I would have to be absolutely 100% sure there is neglect and/or abuse going on.  I've had a visit from CPS for an unrelated and malicious report (that they then dropped) and I am still traumatized by them telling me, repeatedly, that they can and will take my children if I was even a hair out of line.  I wouldn't do that to anyone unless it was clearly in the best interest of the child. 

[ocelotmom]

I would have to be 100% sure and have a clear first hand experience with what is going on in their life.  It may appear neglectful on the outside, but for example if you're judging a 10 yo who can't read, you might not know about a learning disorder that the family might not advertise. Or the child might have ODD or other learning disabilities or behavioral disorders that might not be evident to outsiders.  So I would have to be absolutely 100% sure there is neglect and/or abuse going on.  I've had a visit from CPS for an unrelated and malicious report (that they then dropped) and I am still traumatized by them telling me, repeatedly, that they can and will take my children if I was even a hair out of line.  I wouldn't do that to anyone unless it was clearly in the best interest of the child. 

 

I was going to say this as well. There is no way to look at a kid and know for sure that they don't have some issue impacting their learning. Even if the family denies it, it could be because they don't know themselves that the reason they're having so much trouble teaching XYZ is a learning disorder. That family may need help, but reporting it wouldn't be my first choice.

 

(I've also had dealings with CPS because of behaviors of a non-neurotypical child who appears "normal".)

[Farrar]

Actively hindering education seems like the biggest red flag to me.  Obviously no one can provide every educational opportunity or material a child might want and parents have some ability to limit a child's reading materials and so forth, but a child asking to take important entrance tests, to learn to read, to learn math, to have access to a library, etc. and parents refusing that access would be educational neglect for me.

 

I would need to be sure.  I would need to have offered help first if I thought I could.  But then, yes, I think I'd report.

 

But I've never known any family personally that even came close.  I've known many unschooling families who were on a journey that made me raise my brows a little, but nothing where a child was being prevented access to educational materials.  The families always responded when there was interest from the child.  And because of where I live, I don't know any homeschool families who are preventing learning based on something like the patriarchy movement.  Bleh.

[mama27]

Unless there is neglect in PARENTING I say mind your own business. As of this moment educational rights are still that, and parents are still able to decide how to educate their kids wether it's right in someone else's eyes or not.

I know a family who totally unschooled their kids and they are functioning as any other adult would. Not what "I" would do but they were not educationally neglected.

[msrift]

Agreeing with those who said that educational neglect would need to be paired with another kind of abuse before I'd step in. The only way I'd involve CPS is if I felt the children would be better served being removed from the family, because once legal entities are involved you better be prepared for the worst case scenario. There is no guarantee they'd 'just put the kids in public school.' A more likely result would be foster care (based on how courts are treating excessive absenteeism in my state).

[alef]

I think I have to agree with those who say I wouldn't intervene unless there was some other kind of neglect or abuse going on. If the kid is in a happy, loving home I wouldn't want to mess with that. If I were in a position to share resources etc. I might try that.

[kbutton]

I know a mother that was probably in over her head homeschooling a middle schooler, and she fell behind on the job. They had some pretty extreme circumstances financially that I think contributed to lack of resources plus significant time spent doing odd jobs and getting basic needs met (no car, a trac phone that was only sometimes active, etc.). She was told to enroll her daughter in a virtual academy, and she complied. I think the school district intervened, but I could be wrong. I would definitely call the school district before calling CPS if I felt that the neglect was purely educational (I realize state laws may make that fruitless, but it might work here). Too many CPS horror stories.

 

*Editing to note that I knew of this circumstance LONG before we were homeschooling. I also didn't know that she wasn't doing an appropriate job until she told me what was up because I really didn't know her well at all.

[KathyJo]

I would definitely call the school district before calling CPS if I felt that the neglect was purely educational (I realize state laws may make that fruitless, but it might work here). Too many CPS horror stories.

 

It should be noted that a call to the school district will likely result in them calling CPS.

[kiana]

There are a lot of things that I would consider to be neglect (educational or otherwise) that still wouldn't rise to the level where I would feel comfortable reporting them.

[Pen]

What would you do if  you saw what you believed to be educational neglect?

 

How do YOU personally define educational neglect?  Does it differ than that of your state/province?

 

Would your first response differ depending on the age of the child?  

 

This is something I'm wrestling with IRL, though for obvious reasons I'm giving no details here.

 

Without some details this is a hard post to reply to. I personally have seen a great deal of what appears to be educational neglect going on in bricks and mortar schools--but it presumably meets some state or federal standard. There may well be homeschool situations which are as bad, but I have not personally seen any such.

 

With a young child, I would talk to the parent about what I saw, and assuming a homeschool situation, would offer materials or other help if possible. With an older child I might do that, but might also talk to the child directly since sometimes an outsider can make a difference in a child's life by taking an interest. It would depend on whether my main contact was the child or the parent, and on exact details. But one could offer trips to library or other help whether a child was homeschooled or brick and mortar schooled, for example, or also in either case, could offer to pass down ones used books and curriculum if the child were in a lower grade than one's own. Once could certainly at least say encouraging things to both the child and the parent.

 

Consider what you yourself would like someone who observed your parenting/teaching from the outside and felt that it was neglectful/abusive, perhaps because you do less or more or different than they do. I think some people think not sending children to b&m school is wrong, and others feel that imposing things like Latin  or memorization or copywork is abusive. How would you want that person to handle it? Talk to you directly? Make a report to child services? Offer help to your child?

 

As a former foster parent, I would certainly not call child services for something that seemed to be educational neglect if in general the child's other needs seemed to be adequately met. Child Service involvement is likely to be traumatic to both the parents and children involved, whether or not the child is removed from the home.

[Farrar]

The people who would always stay out of it unless the children were otherwise abused...  You wouldn't report a family with older teens, who refused to allow them to go to school, who would not buy them books or allow them to use the library, who could only barely read and write and could not do math beyond, say, very simple addition?

[TXMary2]

I wouldn't report "educational neglect" because I don't live in anyone else's home and therefore can't see enough that would allow me to make that judgment. It falls in the category of "none of my business." 

[Hunter]

I spent some time in an Amish Mennonite church where girls were not allowed access to high school math books and other subjects that they wanted to study, because the parents wanted to prioritize other types of learning and activities. These girls had a full plate of religious, music, and domestic lessons. Some were studying and apprenticing under an accountant. Others were working in a bakery. Some were "volunteering" to help the new mothers and the sick.

 

Most girls were spending a lot of quality time with their moms, and were being introduced to adult society at their mom's side.

 

I've seen things in Protestant churches that were similar, but...I don't know--sometimes very different somehow.

 

Not only did I suffer from abuse and neglect from family, but the church played a big part in my abuse. Patriarchy hurt me, but I've seen even worse abuse in matriarchy. Patriarchy CAN be a TOOL that abusers sometimes use to hurt women, but if they don't have THAT tool they will find another one. It's never about the tool, even when it's a really convenient tool.

 

There are many loving parents that choose a high school program for their daughters that limits her choices in life. I have a knee-jerk negative reaction to this, but then I need to pull back and take a wider view. Focusing on preparing for the adulthood that a parent expects their child to have, is not educational neglect, even if it's a narrow and limited future.

 

The world is a big place with lots of little corners. I don't think what goes on in those corners is inferior to what the majority is doing, or less "right". Limited options can make a person more vulnerable to abuse, but limited options aren't abuse.

[regentrude]

Limited options can make a person more vulnerable to abuse, but limited options aren't abuse.

 

So where do you draw the line? How wide do the limits have to be set? I  think, limiting personal development very narrowly can be abusive in itself. What about intentionally keeping a person in an educational state that ensures she will never be able to function self-sufficiently, hold a job, manage her own financial affairs? That ensure she will pretty much be damned to servitude to a higher ranking, i.e. male, member of the cult? How is that different from actual slavery?

 

I do not believe any human has the right to consciously and purposefully limit another human's possibilities for growth and development - not even if they are the other human's parents. I do consider this manipulative and abusive.

Please note that I am not talking about the family having limited opportunities, financial means, educational background; I am solely talking about not letting a child participate in available education because the parent has his own ideological agenda.

Robbing a young person of the intellectual means to leave the parents' cult is abuse.

[Hunter]

The people who would always stay out of it unless the children were otherwise abused... You wouldn't report a family with older teens, who refused to allow them to go to school, who would not buy them books or allow them to use the library, who could only barely read and write and could not do math beyond, say, very simple addition?

You would be shocked at what I wouldn't report. I've seen what reporting leads to. I've yet to meet a child that I PERSONALLY knew that had a better experience in foster care than with their parent. The system is just such a mess. The system is just SOOOOO bad.

 

Now I know there are times the system is better than a parent. I do. It's just rare and I haven't met those kids PERSONALLY.

[KathyJo]

The people who would always stay out of it unless the children were otherwise abused...  You wouldn't report a family with older teens, who refused to allow them to go to school, who would not buy them books or allow them to use the library, who could only barely read and write and could not do math beyond, say, very simple addition?

 

In a situation that extreme, I have difficulty believing that everything else in their lives would look hunky-dory. However, if it did, I would not call. I would have to feel, in my own conscience, that it was bad enough to risk the trauma before I would call.

 

One of the first articles I read about unschooling long ago, and probably the one that scared me away from the concept, was a woman explaining how her 16 year old son had finally learned to read, so she could breathe easy now. If such a woman was my sister or good friend, I'd ask her what the hell she was thinking. But I wouldn't think, "Oh, hey. I bet the government can fix that." 

 

I would advise anyone considering calling CPS to first do some research about the trauma involved, and about the amount of abuse that takes place within foster care. That's the risk on one side. What's the risk in the home? Is it worth the risk?

[Farrar]

 Limited options can make a person more vulnerable to abuse, but limited options aren't abuse.

 

Well said.  I agree with that.  On some level all of us have "limited options."  And I agree that training a child to join a vibrant, sustainable community such as the Amish, is different from simply limiting a child's education as a means of keeping that child under control.

 

I think one element that has been alluded to is the child's agency in this.  Children, especially teens, should have access to basic educational opportunities when they desire them.

[Hunter]

So where do you draw the line? How wide do the limits have to be set? I think, limiting personal development very narrowly is abusive in itself. What about intentionally keeping a person in an educational state that ensures she will never be able to function self-sufficiently, hold a job, manage her own financial affairs?

I do not believe any human has the right to consciously and purposefully limit another human's possibilities for growth and development - not even if they are the other human's parents. I do consider this manipulative and abusive.

Please note that I am not talking about the family having limited opportunities, financial means, educational background; I am solely talking about not letting a child participate in available education because the parent has his own ideological agenda.

Robbing a young person of the intellectual means to leave the parents' cult is abuse.

Motive and intent plays a big part in where I draw the line. And the mental health of the parents.

 

I do not believe the Amish and Mennonites are abusive.

 

I don't believe all or most of the Protestant patriarchal families are abusive. Some are, though. There are abusive parents that are drawn to these churches because belonging to these churches provides convenient TOOLS for them to use.

[KathyJo]

I think one element that has been alluded to is the child's agency in this.  Children, especially teens, should have access to basic educational opportunities when they desire them.

 

I agree with you in theory, but I can see how this could quickly become a political battlefield. The line between ideological differences and child abuse is fuzzy for some people. 

[KathyJo]

Motive and intent plays a big part in where I draw the line. And the mental health of the parents.

 

:iagree:

[mommymilkies]

The people who would always stay out of it unless the children were otherwise abused...  You wouldn't report a family with older teens, who refused to allow them to go to school, who would not buy them books or allow them to use the library, who could only barely read and write and could not do math beyond, say, very simple addition?

I can't imagine a situation where this would happen outside of an otherwise abusive situation.  I would report for that.  I have known people helped by foster care (I went to school with several and have worked in sp ed where foster care literally saved the lives of many children).  But I do think CPS can overstep their bounds, and I believe caution should be taken to make sure I knew what I was talking about before I called.  And yes I have called on someone for neglect-not educational, though. 

[Ellie]

I might be personally horrified, but would do nothing. It's not my job to be the education police. And there may be extenuating circumstances that I know nothing about; trying to report the parents could be disastrous for everyone.

[Χά�ων]

Motive and intent plays a big part in where I draw the line. And the mental health of the parents.

 

I do not believe the Amish and Mennonites are abusive.

 

I don't believe all or most of the Protestant patriarchal families are abusive. Some are, though. There are abusive parents that are drawn to these churches because belonging to these churches provides convenient TOOLS for them to use.

This is coming from my personal experience. 

 

When the young husband and father of 3 was killed by a car on his way to town, the Amish community pulled together to help the young widow and ensure the children were house, fed and provided for. They take care of their own.

 

In the Fundamental Church a young man ran off and left his wife and two young children. Does not support them or make any attempts. Mom has no skills but is shamed for thinking about divorce so that she can collect child support and support her children while the good old boys have a laugh about it. There is NO community to support her. Instead she is shamed for not picking herself up by the bootstraps and getting a job where she does not need government support and can homeschool her children because it is a sin to send them to public school where the government will corrupt them, or so she has been told her entire life. She was prevented from receiving an education that would give her the opportunity to care for her family. She was put in a position where she was forced to take the government handouts and then shamed for doing so.  THAT is abuse.

[Hunter]

What about intentionally keeping a person in an educational state that ensures she will never be able to function self-sufficiently, hold a job, manage her own financial affairs? That ensure she will pretty much be damned to servitude to a higher ranking, i.e. male, member of the cult? How is that different from actual slavery?

 

 

Robbing a young person of the intellectual means to leave the parents' cult is abuse.

This is where motive comes in. Limiting a child education to intentionally ensure their adult choices are limited to just the group, is not the same as prioritizing an education that prepares a child to function in the group. It's no easy task to prepare a child for a life very different from the world the parents live in.

 

I don't think all parents owe their children the type of education that ensures they can function outside the group, if it's a huge burden on them, and does little to prepare them for life in the group.

 

I was limited. I struggle every day with the effects of having had my teen years purposely robbed, with the intent to basically enslave me. But still, I can't put the burden on all parents that they are required to prepare all their children for life outside the group.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Up to grade 3 or 4 I don't judge at all.  

 

Grade 5 and up I would take notice.  If it was a family member or a good friend, I would try to gently influence things.  I would assume with a family member or a good friend that I would know if there were extenuating circumstances but even then I know that they might not have confided in me.  If the neglect was severe and accompanied with other neglect then I would confront the person.  Again - all of this assumes that I have a close relationship with the parents and the child because I wouldn't presume to judge someone otherwise.  

[Peaceful Isle]

I was "homeschooled" the last years of high school.

It was a very hard time for me and it was all about control for them. I only got a 10th grade education, and hardly that. We moved around so many times, and sometimes in the middle of the year, so I felt like I had many gaps in my education. It was a big struggle for me.

All that to say, even if a child does not have a perfect education, they can still make something of themselves. I struggled, but I got my degree in teaching. My spirit, however, was hurt, in many ways. That was almost worse than my lack of education.

 

If I saw children, who were really lacking in their education, I would definitely talk to their parents about it. Maybe try to give advise, lend a helping hand, etc..

Everyone is fighting a battle, and sometimes pain/ guilt is deeper than anyone can ever know.

[Hunter]

I can't imagine a situation where this would happen outside of an otherwise abusive situation. I would report for that. I have known people helped by foster care (I went to school with several and have worked in sp ed where foster care literally saved the lives of many children). But I do think CPS can overstep their bounds, and I believe caution should be taken to make sure I knew what I was talking about before I called. And yes I have called on someone for neglect-not educational, though.

I've called too. More than once. And watched the children suffer the results of my ignorance. Sometimes no action is the best action, even in very bad situations. When I was being abused, every attempt, but one, made to make things better for me, made things worse.

[dbmamaz]

But here in VA, there was that kid who said he sued the school district to enroll him in public school, and they refused, because his parents (under the religious exemption) had the right to school him HOWEVER they saw fit.  And i'm pretty sure the foster care system, for the most part, is a mess, and a child would have to be in pretty bad situation for me to call - plus we see so many cases of kids who'd been reported over and over to social services and died anyways.  Idk, my faith in that system is so low . .. and i'm not comfortable saying my values are better.  If i could help a teen out - like that one in VA, a neighbor drove him to college - i would try.  But i dont think social services would intervene if the child was being fed and clothed and the father had a job.

[Entropymama]

So far our OP hasn't chimed in with any details, so it's hard to add anything, but I'll tell you a story.. 

 

I knew a homeschooling family who's standards were different than ours. The more I got to know them the more concerned I was. They travelled frequently, were very involved in volunteer work and prayer meetings and work on a farm (not theirs). For the life of me, if you had asked me what they did for school I couldn't have told you. They didn't call themselves unschoolers. I got really concerned when I was helping one of the children, a fourth grader, with something and she asked me how to make a lowercase 'g' (or some letter). It got to the point that I felt like I should say something, especially since if you spoke to the mother she claimed they were advanced academically and put them a grade higher than their ages suggested. 

 

But... 

 

As some of the others here have said, when I took a step back and looked at the whole situation, I realized that there was no abuse going on. The parents were loving and attentive, the kids had many interests. I don't know what ever happened with them academically but having known someone who had CPS called on them (for no good reason) I've seen the trauma it can cause. I hope they were able to excel and make it in whatever they decided to do. But I've seen public schooled high schoolers who could barely read and write either. 

 

This is a very tough call. 

[Χά�ων]

This is where motive comes in. Limiting a child education to intentionally ensure their adult choices are limited to just the group, is not the same as prioritizing an education that prepares a child to function in the group. It's no easy task to prepare a child for a life very different from the world the parents live in.

 

I don't think all parents owe their children the type of education that ensures they can function outside the group, if it's a huge burden on them, and does little to prepare them for life in the group.

 

I was limited. I struggle every day with the effects of having had my teen years purposely robbed, with the intent to basically enslave me. But still, I can't put the burden on all parents that they are required to prepare all their children for life outside the group.

Wait. What? YOU were limited and struggle with it daily but yet you think it is OK? I am unable to understand your reasoning. 

 

 

And for as much as I detest public schools, they do educate the masses and as a general rule most people come out with a basic education that will allow them to, at the very least, attend community college or go to a trade school. How much of a burden is it to send them to school? There are places that help with the cost of supplies. There are programs to give them lunch while they are there if the parents cannot afford it. There are programs to help with uniforms, if required, or decent clothes if not. It is not my first choice, but if I was unable to educate my own child and could not afford to send him to the private school of my choice he could always attend the local B&M school building. OR he would qualify for homebound virtual school through the state due to his health. I am the LAST person to defend public schools in this country, but it is better, by a long shot, than being forcibly kept from an education. 

 

Hell, even a local Mennonite family sent their (incredibly brilliant) daughter off to near by university. The family realized that her desire, and aptitude was such that a university (she still lived at home) was the best place to meet her intellectual needs. 

[Pen]

The people who would always stay out of it unless the children were otherwise abused...  You wouldn't report a family with older teens, who refused to allow them to go to school, who would not buy them books or allow them to use the library, who could only barely read and write and could not do math beyond, say, very simple addition?

 

Again, not knowing specifics makes it so hard to say.

 

And also even having been in a situation where abuse/neglect had to be something I reported if I suspected it at one point, it is not clear from what you write--even though I think you are trying to make it a so extreme who could argue this case--that it would be reportable.

 

Your example might not be far off from what Amish families may have other than that they are allowed to go to school when young and so may be a least basically capable at the 3 rs beyond simple adding--but maybe not.  In any case, by older teen time, maybe they are working on the farm, and maybe the families don't buy books much other than the Bible, don't go to the library etc.  And so long as the children are not prisoners, I would find that an acceptable alternative. And in that case I would not mention what mainstream society thinks of as "normal" since I'd assume that our mainstream society is known by them and has been rejected as nuts. 

 

 I am not even sure how there would be a situation like that where I would know about it, and know what the children were able to do or not do. In some vague imagination I have of this, where say such a family moves in on our block and their child becomes friends with children I know who tell me about it, where everything else except the above educational scenario looked and sounded good, I think without knowing that there was a lifestyle choice like to be Amish, that I would be inclined to give an older teen information about what is "normal" in terms of education-- and perhaps offer a phone if the teen wanted to call CPS or to do it if the older teen wanted it done. If I knew the parents, I'd be likely again to want to talk with them about it in a helpful way. If I did not, then I might mention it to someone I know who is also a neighbor, but involved in the school system.

 

 

 But if the child were locked in a closet and thus could not do those things, or were being hit for trying to do those things, or if I knew about emotional abuse involved if the teen tried to do those things, then yes, probably so, but that is back to the abuse issue again. 

 

 

 

We have migrant labor families who are in that sort of situation in our area, though perhaps the children do go to school when they can, not because of the parents wanting to harm their children, but because the life they are leading is causing that. Legal work age here (my state?) starts (with various changing rules as the child grows older) at 14 years old--so to see an "older teen" not in school etc. as described is hardly unusual.  I do not necessarily think the children would be better off taken away from their family in order to have more schooling--though it would be nice if they could have more schooling and also be with their families. I wish I could do more to help such families--not to get involved by reporting them to someone--but to do something truly useful, but honestly do not know what that would be.

 

For homeschoolers, I happen to live in a state with mandatory testing and it has to be done by a 3rd party independent approved tester, so that if a child were not able to read or write or do math as indicated in your example, the parents would have been contacted by the state and the child would either have been determined to have an LD or some such problem where he or she could not master those things or would have been placed in school or otherwise have had the rules of the state when the std. tests are failed come into play. If I suspected that a child young enough to be required to be in school was being both educationally neglected as you describe and was not officially registered then I think I would consider turning this into the education district for them to handle, but not likely CPS without evidence of something more. I think that up to 16 is the age at which school attendance here is mandatory, so your older teen situation is likely past that. We have a radical unschool contingent in this area, but the kids I have met mostly seem to be managing all right one way or another, again, if I felt it was a problem for someone I knew, I would talk to the child the parent, or both.

[Jackie]

What would you do if you saw what you believed to be educational neglect?

 

How do YOU personally define educational neglect? Does it differ than that of your state/province?

 

Would your first response differ depending on the age of the child?

 

This is something I'm wrestling with IRL, though for obvious reasons I'm giving no details here.

I live in a no-regulation state. I'm also a former CPS worker, so I know exactly what the response would be and know there is absolutely no point in reporting educational neglect here. Because of the lack of regulation, I had parents flat-out tell me that the reason they withdrew little Johnny to "homeschool" him was that he didn't like school and they didn't want to get him up and on the bus in the morning, that they had no plans of teaching him, had no access to educational resources at all, did not use the library, and had no intention of ever sending him back to school. Do you know how sad it is to assess a situation like that, know that you are seeing a child who will likely never be given an opportunity for education, and have to just walk away from it altogether?

 

So, I wouldn't report it here. I would in other places. I believe that education is a right. IMO, parents have a right to make choices regarding the education, but not to refuse to educate. I would certainly attempt to offer help and/or resources before reporting, though.

 

I find it sad how many people are categorizing this as simply none of anyone's business. It takes a community to support a child. It is often caring relatives, friends, and neighbors who are able to help a family/child through difficult times. If everyone turns away because that child's life is none of their business, the community safety nets completely fail.

[Χά�ων]

So far our OP hasn't chimed in with any details, so it's hard to add anything, but I'll tell you a story.. 

 

I knew a homeschooling family who's standards were different than ours. The more I got to know them the more concerned I was. They travelled frequently, were very involved in volunteer work and prayer meetings and work on a farm (not theirs). For the life of me, if you had asked me what they did for school I couldn't have told you. They didn't call themselves unschoolers. I got really concerned when I was helping one of the children, a fourth grader, with something and she asked me how to make a lowercase 'g' (or some letter). It got to the point that I felt like I should say something, especially since if you spoke to the mother she claimed they were advanced academically and put them a grade higher than their ages suggested. 

 

But... 

 

As some of the others here have said, when I took a step back and looked at the whole situation, I realized that there was no abuse going on. The parents were loving and attentive, the kids had many interests. I don't know what ever happened with them academically but having known someone who had CPS called on them (for no good reason) I've seen the trauma it can cause. I hope they were able to excel and make it in whatever they decided to do. But I've seen public schooled high schoolers who could barely read and write either. 

 

This is a very tough call. 

If it makes you feel any better I am in my 30's and still struggle to correctly make several letters. Lower case g is one of them. Cursive capital S is another (and my maiden name started with an S!!!) And I was in the gifted programs as a kid. 

[73349]

I think the first thing to do is find out where your state (or provincial, etc.) law stands.

 

In my state, a homeschooling parent accused of not schooling (which would come via the Department of Non-Public Education, not CPS) would be asked to show

• a record of attendance (and school must be conducted "regularly" within the school year, no specific minimum amount of time/days, no other proof than mom checked off the days on a calendar),
• a registration card (basically names, address and birthdates, it gets submitted with a copy of one parent's diploma),
• an immunization record for each child, and
• proof that standardized testing was conducted once in the last year (no minimum scores).

Anyone with that paperwork in order is not guilty. The children do not have to be able to read, write, or do math. They do not have to be college- or career-ready. Parents do not have to show that there was an excuse for not having school a certain day or week. They do not have to pull out a curriculum, textbook or plan book.

 

So where do you live? Is the family technically compliant with your state law? If so, you won't get anywhere with a complaint to the government. You can offer help to the family directly if they want it.

[kbutton]

It should be noted that a call to the school district will likely result in them calling CPS.

 

I am aware that might happen, but I do think that calling school first would indicate I am worried about education, not parenting overall. It can make a difference in how CPS treats people as a result. Lots of parents neglect their publically schooled kids' education, and it doesn't trigger a CPS investigation. Truthfully, in our state, I would hope that the school district would ask a few questions of the teacher that signed off on a kids' assessment before calling CPS since we can opt for teacher assessment or a standardized test.

 

[Hunter]

Wait. What? YOU were limited and struggle with it daily but yet you think it is OK? I am unable to understand your reasoning.

 

 

That isn't so surprising to me. If someone only knows that way, they don't know another. KWIM? Kinda like how victims of abuse seem to find abusers without barely trying.

I know people are skimming posts, and missing the nuances of what some people are saying. We all do that.

 

Motive, as I said, is a big part of what defines abuse. Abuse is about coercion, not the tool used. I don't think it's okay to limit a child's education for the purpose of controlling them. I do think it's okay for parent to raise their children for life in corner of the world where they are living, when they are mentally healthy enough to understand the consequences, and are lovingly doing what they think is best for THEIR child, using the resources they have available to them.

 

Mentally healthy people were not making decisions that they thought were best for me, and people were not sharing the resources equally. Cruel and mentally ill people were coercing me, brainwashing me, and physically controlling me, for reasons that benefitted them with little to no regard for my safety and health and happiness.

 

The limits of my teen years were because of different MOTIVES than those of most Amish/Mennonite, Patriarchal, and homesteading families.

 

As for victims finding abusers--sigh! It's a LOT more complicated than that. And I've been in recovery long enough to have been declared as having a better than normal understanding of what is abuse and what is not abuse. I'm never expected to recover from the physical effects and conditioned responses of my PTSD, but I can quote the textbooks better than many people who have been working in the mental health field for decades.

[Crimson Wife]

I've met good "unschoolers" who make a concerted effort to create a good learning environment for their children and bad "unschoolers" whose laissez-faire attitude does border on neglect. The kids aren't being prevented from getting an education but they're not being given any tools or guidance to help educate themselves.

 

With a teen girl actively being discouraged from getting an education, I think I would make an offer that as soon as she turns 18, I'd help her get out of that toxic environment. Give her a place to stay, books & other materials to help get her caught up, assistance with college applications & getting herself declared an independent student for financial aid purposes, etc.

[ocelotmom]

That isn't so surprising to me.  If someone only knows that way, they don't know another.  KWIM?  Kinda like how victims of abuse seem to find abusers without barely trying.

 

I had a horrible time in public school. I still suffer from educational and emotional side effects, and I've seen others who suffered much worse educational damage than I did. I wouldn't dream of trying to limit someone else's access to public school if they feel it is right for their family, even if I feel it's a horrible and damaging option for their kids. I might suggest homeschooling as an option and try to educate them about it, but not force it.

 

Or spanking. I don't spank my kids. I was spanked growing up, and don't think it was beneficial in the slightest. I wouldn't report someone to CPS for spanking their kids (within reasonable limits). (Disregarding questions of legality, mandatory reporting, and so on.)

 

It's a matter of parental autonomy and least harm, not Stockholm Syndrome. 

[Farrar]

I can't imagine a situation where this would happen outside of an otherwise abusive situation.  I would report for that.  I have known people helped by foster care (I went to school with several and have worked in sp ed where foster care literally saved the lives of many children).  But I do think CPS can overstep their bounds, and I believe caution should be taken to make sure I knew what I was talking about before I called.  And yes I have called on someone for neglect-not educational, though. 

 

I think I would have said this at one point, before I had read stories like those of the bloggers who are involved in that Coalition for Responsible Homeschooling from the other thread.  Now I can envision a case where a child could be reasonably well-fed, clothed and housed, perhaps spanked in youth but not beyond cultural norms of some places, and not s*xually or otherwise abused or neglected and yet not provided for educationally in any way that would prepare them for the world or allow them access to basic skills.

 

I have also seen some radical unschooling blog posts and online statements that seem to indicate the family is prohibiting the child from accessing educational materials in the interest of the child "figuring it out themselves" but to the point that seems comically bizarre and possibly representing neglect, such as older children or teens who would like to learn to read but the families refuse to give them learn to read materials even when asked for them.  And in those cases, I assume the child is also well-fed, housed, clothed, and not physical abused or even spanked.  Though I have to say this has not been my personal experience of unschoolers at all and I'm a little dubious about it - I don't think it's the norm in most unschooling communities.

 

I agree with everyone saying that some public school children are also educationally neglected.  But one wrong doesn't excuse another wrong.  And I think both are relatively rare.

[mommymilkies]

 

If it makes you feel any better I am in my 30's and still struggle to correctly make several letters. Lower case g is one of them. Cursive capital S is another (and my maiden name started with an S!!!) And I was in the gifted programs as a kid. 

Mine is cursive r and s.  For some reason I always pause and second guess my actions when I write them.  :lol: