............

[MFG]

I just bought chocolate. Well, "chocolate," as it is white "chocolate," for the kids' stockings. I've set aside a major prejudice to accommodate their wishes. :)

That is a spirit of true sacrifice that can be appreciated by all.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I just bought chocolate. Well, "chocolate," as it is white "chocolate," for the kids' stockings. I've set aside a major prejudice to accommodate their wishes. :)

 

I will buy that too.  And I will eat it in a box with a fox, sir.  However, I will also stoop to snatching thrice-daily handfuls of 70% chocolate chips I ostensibly bought to make cookies and/or pancakes.  If enough survive to the weekend, well....there's natural selection for ya right there.

[LucyStoner]

I think some people routinely confuse disagreement with intolerance. To be disagreed with is not to be attacked or maligned. If I had a dollar for everytime that point was relevant on this board...

[SKL]

Is this concept in reference to anything in this thread? If so, could you please make the point to this topic a bit clearer for those of us who did not read any gas hike thread? I'm all kinds of confused here.

 

I didn't bring up the gas hike thread.  I was not talking about the gas hike thread.

 

If you truly believe in diversity of thought (and freedom in its expression) being good, I agree with you.  Simple as that.  If you believe some people's opinions deserve more freedom of expression or more respect than other people's opinions, then I disagree with you.  When I say "you," I mean generic "you," anybody, everybody.

 

[albeto.]

I didn't bring up the gas hike thread.  I was not talking about the gas hike thread.

Well, it all went over my head anyway.

 

If you truly believe in diversity of thought (and freedom in its expression) being good, I agree with you.  Simple as that.  If you believe some people's opinions deserve more freedom of expression or more respect than other people's opinions, then I disagree with you.  When I say "you," I mean generic "you," anybody, everybody.

 

Okay. Got it. Thanks.

 

:)

[DragonFaerie]

I think it's just the way the picture is cropped.

 

 

I think the "believe in humanity" billboard says what it says.

 

Unless of course the word "I" is actually on the billboard and a photographer was messing around.

 

 

Every billboard can be seen here (needs Flash):

 

http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/19499-ffrf-sponsors-%E2%80%9Cnon-sacramental%E2%80%9D-billboard-blitz-in-sacramento

 

Definitely just declarative.  Not telling anybody to do anything.

[SKL]

I think some people routinely confuse disagreement with intolerance. To be disagreed with is not to be attacked or maligned. If I had a dollar for everytime that point was relevant on this board...

 

Well, that is how it should be, but it isn't always how it is.

I do feel that most people are decent about this.  They can agree to disagree until it becomes personal.

[SKL]

Definitely just declarative.  Not telling anybody to do anything.

 

Yes, somebody cropped the above photo wrong.

 

Though, this is clearly a recruiting campaign.

 

[Catwoman]

Yes, somebody cropped the above photo wrong.

 

Though, this is clearly a recruiting campaign.

 

I think it's an awareness campaign.

[LucyStoner]

Well, that is how it should be, but it isn't always how it is.

I do feel that most people are decent about this. They can agree to disagree until it becomes personal.

I don't see where anyone on this thread has made things personal, did the board equivalent of "vague-booking" or really done more than discuss and share. On either "side" until these last few posts from you. There are some posters here I couldn't disagree with more but I don't see anyone getting worked up. Are you seeing something I missed or are you bringing in your personal hurt from that gas thread?

[WishboneDawn]

Are we arguing my faith in this thread?

 

Some of the apocrypha also deals with the birth of Jesus. Just because it wasn't included during the hoedown doesn't make it irrelevant to all of us.

 

And second of all I do what I want. Even if I wanted to worship Ceiling Cat then I will do so. I am not making others worship Ceiling Cat.

I reread my post and it has a definite snotty feel to it that you obviously picked up on. I apologize Sis.

[Mrs Mungo]

But enough with any billboards. Especially the Viagra ones.

We don't have billboards here, hooray! Of course, many people would consider it socialist. No billboards, we have public transportation (and the voters have voted to pay to improve upon it), we have had employer-mandated health insurance for many years (one of the reasons it qualifies as one of the healthiest states), etc.

[Audrey]

Actually, it's an incomplete sentence lacking a subject (as evidenced by the missing opening quotation marks and lack of a capital letter).  The subject of the sentence could be "I" which then makes it simply declarative.

 

 

The full text of the billboard says "I believe in humanity, not god."  You will note, if you look at the banner across the bottom of the picture albeto. posted, that it is truncated.  It is not the full billboard picture.

 

The picture albeto. posted was poorly cropped, which is unfortunate because cropped as it is implies a command, not a statement. That is not what the billboard actually says, though.  The full billboard is here, http://ffrf.org/news...z-in-sacramento (#28 of 54) which nmoira also posted above... for anyone who cares to see what it really says.

[milovany]

I don't see where anyone on this thread has made things personal, did the board equivalent of "vague-booking" or really done more than discuss and share. On either "side" ...

 

I was just going to post saying how glad I am this has remained a friendly, respectful thread. Which probably means it will be locked soon because I seem to always be unaware that a thread has turned ugly and needs to be locked. 

 

[WishboneDawn]

IMO, the billboard is not supposed to make anyone feel differently about atheists. It is supposed to let those who are already atheist or leaning that way, or confused or whatever, know that they are not alone. It's like the billboard is saying, "Hey look! There are others out here who are the same as you! It's not all bad if you don't have a faith!" And that can be a very good feeling to have for someone who's feeling alone or battered down while adrift with those who do have faith and do look down on those who are without faith.

I think you're right.

[LucyStoner]

I was just going to post saying how glad I am this has remained a friendly, respectful thread.

 

Case in point! It's likely no secret that Milovany and I disagreed on this topic. I appreciated reading her posts even though I think differently. Her information was interesting. I hope the feeling is mutual and wish all a Happy Christmas and Merry Merry!

[milovany]

Case in point! It's likely no secret that Milovany and I disagreed on this topic. I appreciated reading her posts even though I think differently. Her information was interesting. I hope the feeling is mutual and wish all a Happy Christmas and Merry Merry!

 

I've hardly noticed any differences, Katie!  May your holidays (if you celebrate any) be blessed.  If you don't care to receive the censing in my signature (below) feel free to cover the screen when you read my posts.  ;)

[SKL]

I don't see where anyone on this thread has made things personal, did the board equivalent of "vague-booking" or really done more than discuss and share. On either "side" until these last few posts from you. There are some posters here I couldn't disagree with more but I don't see anyone getting worked up. Are you seeing something I missed or are you bringing in your personal hurt from that gas thread?

 

I did not say anyone was getting personal on this thread.  Nor was I thinking that.

 

I was not even thinking about the gas thread.  (Though, note, Santa uses reindeer and NOT fossil fuels, so....)

 

I do feel that there is a negative spirit behind some of the atheist promotional materials being discussed, as well as other instances of ridiculing / disrespecting people of faith that have not been brought up here.  And that is why it's hard for some of us to sympathize with their movement.  Though probably most of us do NOT care whether a particular individual is an atheist.

 

If I'm still not clear enough, I am sorry.  I tried but I think this needs to be my last attempt.

 

[milovany]

It only takes one and that one is not you :)

 

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

 

Five years ago, it would have been me. Orthodoxy has been changing me on the inside and I'm thankful for it. But alas, I still mess up (please don't interview my family!). I trust the journeys that people are on and God's mercy.

[DragonFaerie]

I think it's an awareness campaign.

 

I agree.

[zoobie]

But enough with any billboards. Especially the Viagra ones.

There are Viagra billboards? Are they 3D?

[Violet Crown]

I wished my public school students a Merry Christmas today. And last week we listened to songs that all mentioned God during the St Lucia performance*. No one here gets their knickers in a twist and I live in a very secular country.

Yes, but who could be against a holiday that lets you strap burning candles to your head?

[StaceyinLA]

Believe it or not, I hesitated quite a bit! My first thought was this:

 

 

http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/news-sacramento/55-atheist-billboards-to-be-unveiled-in-sacramento-region/-/12969376/23236942/-/dljgaq/-/index.html

 

The comments will show that no matter how... passive? the message is, there are people who take great offense at being confronted with support of an alternative to their religion. I don't mean offense as in getting angry necessarily (that's a reaction, and not universal), but offense as in it offending their sense of good and bad. Christ is good - encouraging people to reject Christ is bad. That kind of thing. But I though this was so passive, I didn't know if it would really answer the OP's question. Then I saw the other one, and... well... it helped answer the question! If people don't see the blatant and public claim that their religious belief is mythological as a war on Christmas, then I guess the idea of a war on Christmas is limited to certain conspiracy theorist communities. 

 

  

 

 

The biggest problem I see with this is that if I put my faith and belief in humanity, I'd be pretty dam* distraught about now. I like having faith in something that I believe will free me from this mostly depraved society at some point. I mean should I be having belief in the "knockout game" teens, the elementary school shooters, the illustrious Hollywood elite, Oprah, or even worse, Obama and our upstanding government officials. Good gracious! I think I'd like to keep God in my life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

The biggest problem I see with this is that if I put my faith and belief in humanity, I'd be pretty dam* distraught about now. I like having faith in something that I believe will free me from this mostly depraved society at some point. I mean should I be having belief in the "knockout game" teens, the elementary school shooters, the illustrious Hollywood elite, Oprah, or even worse, Obama and our upstanding government officials. Good gracious! I think I'd like to keep God in my life.

 

Being an atheist does not mean that one has faith in violence, media, Oprah (or Hannity), Obama (or Romney) or the government.  One not need be of any particular political, social or other view to be an atheist.  

 

For all the parts of humanity that are violent, there are so many parts that are amazing, loving, compassionate, brilliant and kind.  Call me a foolish optimist but I think people are generally more good than bad, more awesome sauce than awful.  

[StaceyinLA]

nm

[unfrumpable.]

I guess I don't really understand why anyone feels the need to "come out" as an atheist.

 

I have never felt the need to tell anyone what I do or don't believe. It's my business, not anyone else's.

 

I don't think it's a "need" to come out. I am currently not an atheist, though I have been. I am also currently not of any faith. I was raised Catholic. I have been with a fundamental, evangelistic group.

 

Pretty much, when out and about and conversing and interacting with the general public, here in the parts of the US I have lived in, everyone basically assumes one is Christian. Unless there is something about one's outward appearance that suggests otherwise. I cannot even count the number of people who have talked to me as if I was their fellow sister in Christ. They just assume. I normally just nod my head, roll with it, and move on. I am not talking about people who are out recruiting, I am talking just normal conversation with a cashier, someone in line, in the parking lot, wherever.

 

So no, I don't feel the need to come out to everyone in every place (my close friends and family know where I stand religiously and vice versa). But it would be nice if that assumption was not always there.

[VeteranMom]

To OP, no, I don't see a war on Christmas.  I'm a Christian.  I used to get offended by people saying Happy Holidays, but I think I'm mellowing in my old age.  If I am always walking around being offended, where does that get me?  I say Merry Christmas to those who I know celebrate it, but am not going to get my panties in a wad over someone saying Happy Holidays to me. 

[StaceyinLA]

Being an atheist does not mean that one has faith in violence, media, Oprah (or Hannity), Obama (or Romney) or the government.  One not need be of any particular political, social or other view to be an atheist.  

 

For all the parts of humanity that are violent, there are so many parts that are amazing, loving, compassionate, brilliant and kind.  Call me a foolish optimist but I think people are generally more good than bad, more awesome sauce than awful.  

 

 

I realize what being an atheist is. The AD says have faith in humanity. Exactly which part of humanity should I have faith in at this point in time? IMO our society is pretty depraved. Sure there are good things going on, and good people, but there is an awful lot of bad and evil.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

 

 

The biggest problem I see with this is that if I put my faith and belief in humanity, I'd be pretty dam* distraught about now. I like having faith in something that I believe will free me from this mostly depraved society at some point. I mean should I be having belief in the "knockout game" teens, the elementary school shooters, the illustrious Hollywood elite, Oprah, or even worse, Obama and our upstanding government officials. Good gracious! I think I'd like to keep God in my life.

 

I really hope you're not serious about this. Are all Christians members of the Westboro Baptist Church? Have you done a survey of every teen who has played that stupid "knockout game" and every school shooter to know that they're all atheists? President Obama is a Christian--maybe not your flavor of Christian, but I;m pretty sure Christians run the gamut, no?

 

Herein lies the problem with atheism's public image. Certain people are determined to paint them with one specific, negative brush. I'm an atheist. I support my husband's Christianity, I teach my kids about all religions and support their choices, and I've never killed anyone that I can recall. I find it very upsetting that you would imply otherwise.

[Ipsey]

nm

 

Only a very, very small percentage of couples on TV are gay. A very small percentage. It only feels that it's in your face because they was even a VERY VERY small percentage previous to that.

 

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2012/07/11/gender-race-homosexuality-television-statistics/

 

I had a great bit of research I shared with a friend earlier this year, but I can't find it; this is reasonable.

 

When an unrecognized group of  people suddenly gains representation,however small, it feels like "THEY'RE EVERYWHERE." :)

 

I think it has something to do with the availability heuristic, but I'm unsure on this point.

[milovany]

I really hope you're not serious about this. Are all Christians members of the Westboro Baptist Church? Have you done a survey of every teen who has played that stupid "knockout game" and every school shooter to know that they're all atheists? President Obama is a Christian--maybe not your flavor of Christian, but I;m pretty sure Christians run the gamut, no?

 

Herein lies the problem with atheism's public image. Certain people are determined to paint them with one specific, negative brush. I'm an atheist. I support my husband's Christianity, I teach my kids about all religions and support their choices, and I've never killed anyone that I can recall. I find it very upsetting that you would imply otherwise.

 

I think that's kind of Stacey's point, no?  She's NOT wanting to put faith in humanity -- Christian or atheist or anything else -- she puts her faith in God. 

[LucyStoner]

I realize what being an atheist is. The AD says have faith in humanity. Exactly which part of humanity should I have faith in at this point in time? IMO our society is pretty depraved. Sure there are good things going on, and good people, but there is an awful lot of bad and evil.

 

I rejoice in the good.  Because there is far more good than not in my life.  Because I can't be a strong, kick-ass person, mother, wife, and (dare I say it?!) volunteer while dwelling on all that is un-good.  I am heart sad for those that see more bad than good.  Truly, I wish we could all celebrate the great things together regardless of creed or lack of creed.  I need not look further than my sons' excited, gorgeous faces to know that I must have faith in the good of humanity.  

[StaceyinLA]

I really hope you're not serious about this. Are all Christians members of the Westboro Baptist Church? Have you done a survey of every teen who has played that stupid "knockout game" and every school shooter to know that they're all atheists? President Obama is a Christian--maybe not your flavor of Christian, but I;m pretty sure Christians run the gamut, no?

 

Herein lies the problem with atheism's public image. Certain people are determined to paint them with one specific, negative brush. I'm an atheist. I support my husband's Christianity, I teach my kids about all religions and support their choices, and I've never killed anyone that I can recall. I find it very upsetting that you would imply otherwise.

 

 

See, I really don't understand why people twist my words. I never said the school shooters and knockout game players were atheists. I just said that's not the type of "humanity" I want to put my faith in. Geez.

[milovany]

Never mind. 'Tis the season to be jolly.   :D

[StaceyinLA]

I rejoice in the good.  Because there is far more good than not in my life.  Because I can't be a strong, kick-ass person, mother, wife, and (dare I say it?!) volunteer while dwelling on all that is un-good.  I am heart sad for those that see more bad than good.  Truly, I wish we could all celebrate the great things together regardless of creed or lack of creed.  I need not look further than my sons' excited, gorgeous faces to know that I must have faith in the good of humanity.  

 

 

When I look at my children's and grandchildren's faces, I see evidence of an amazing Creator. I am in awe at the miracle of life He creates daily. I like to see the good in people, but I don't put my faith there.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I think that's kind of Stacey's point, no?  She's NOT wanting to put faith in humanity -- Christian or atheist or anything else -- she puts her faith in God. 

 

Her implication is that if you have no faith in God, then you can't be a good person or live in a moral way, which is purely ridiculous and the whole reason people see atheists as some kind of threat. I don't worship humanity, and I don't support people who hurt other people simply because they're humans. 

[milovany]

I understand, but no one is taking that away from her. In your country she is free to do that and to a great exten, society approves of her doing that.

 

And I don't believe she said society was denying her that.  She just said she doesn't want to put her faith in humanity, but in God. That's all. 

[milovany]

Her implication is that if you have no faith in God, then you can't be a good person or live in a moral way, which is purely ridiculous and the whole reason people see atheists as some kind of threat. I don't worship humanity, and I don't support people who hurt other people simply because they're humans. 

 

Um, what?  I didn't get that at all. 

 

 

 

The biggest problem I see with this is that if I put my faith and belief in humanity, I'd be pretty dam* distraught about now....

 

And the rest of the post was full of I/me/my .... she said clearly that for her, she wanted to put her faith in God. That was her personal response to the billboard.  Not sure where the rest of the interpretation of her post came from. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

See, I really don't understand why people twist my words. I never said the school shooters and knockout game players were atheists. I just said that's not the type of "humanity" I want to put my faith in. Geez.

 

I don't put my faith in that type of humanity either. See the difference?

 

Out of curiosity, what would you say to someone who wonders why Christians would believe in a God who allows things like the Holocaust to happen? Isn't that the same kind of argument? If all things are God's will, how would you explain Him allowing terrible things to happen to good people?

[milovany]

I don't put my faith in that type of humanity either. See the difference?

 

Out of curiosity, what would you say to someone who wonders why Christians would believe in a God who allows things like the Holocaust to happen? Isn't that the same kind of argument? If all things are God's will, how would you explain Him allowing terrible things to happen to good people?

 

Flip, seriously -- I think you're reading more into that than is there. The billboard DOES pit humanity against God and what we put our faith in. Stacey was just responding to that and giving her opinion (as the gal on the billboard did) about where she wants to put her faith. If you don't want to put your faith in humanity, great that's fine, but the gal on the billboard does and that's the context of the conversation (or at the very least, if it's different, it's what she "believes in" as some "believe in" God).

[LucyStoner]

When I look at my children's and grandchildren's faces, I see evidence of an amazing Creator. I am in awe at the miracle of life He creates daily. I like to see the good in people, but I don't put my faith there.

 

It bears noting that for each of us the term faith means something very different.  I don't have the same sort of faith you have in your creator in anything whatsoever in my life.  I used to, but now I do not. For me, I have faith in humanity the same way I have faith that my husband is a good person or that the sun will come out tomorrow.  More of a trust, I dunno if I am defining it very well.  I believe in the good in humanity.  I get that you do not and can respect that.  Certainly there are many horrible examples of things in life and humanity.  However sharing that I don't think humanity is, on the balance, fully awful is not in anyway an impingement on your faith in your God.  

 

Personally, I think the world would be gone by now if humans were more bad than good.  We'd launch the missiles or something and buh bye.  

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Fa la la la la la la la ...

 

:D

 

Why is OK for Stacey to make the kind of statement she made, but mine is going to get the thread locked? Other posters were concerned about the negative statements implying questioning about Christians' faith, but now similar statements are being made about atheists, and it's not a problem?

 

I personally have no problem with Christianity. My own husband is Christian, and my kids haven't decided yet. I don't undermine that, and I don't demean Christianity to them, ever. But many agnostics/atheists do wonder how people can believe in a God that lets terrible things happen, just the way Stacey wonders how atheists can "put their faith" in such a terrible humanity. It's analogous, and I wondered what the answer is. 

[LucyStoner]

Flip, seriously -- I think you're reading more into that than is there. The billboard DOES put humanity against God and what we put our faith in. Stacey was just responding to that and giving her opinion (as the gal on the billboard did) about where she wants to put her faith. If you don't want to put your faith in humanity, great that's fine, but the gal on the billboard does and that's the context of the conversation (or at the very least, if it's different, it's what she "believes in" as some "believe in" God).

 

Maybe you missed the post she deleted where she linked humanism with having anyone that was "less than 10% of the population" views shoved in her face and gay on TV being somehow connected to all this?  It went beyond a faith in God to sociopolitical views that honestly have little to do with religion.  There are plenty of religious people, including most of the Christians I know, who do not share the social or political views she shared that Flip was responding to.  

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Flip, seriously -- I think you're reading more into that than is there. The billboard DOES pit humanity against God and what we put our faith in. Stacey was just responding to that and giving her opinion (as the gal on the billboard did) about where she wants to put her faith. If you don't want to put your faith in humanity, great that's fine, but the gal on the billboard does and that's the context of the conversation (or at the very least, if it's different, it's what she "believes in" as some "believe in" God).

 

If that's how you see it, that's fine. I don't see it that way. And the opinion expressed here was quite a bit stronger and more negative than a simple "I have faith in humanity, not God."

[milovany]

Maybe you missed the post she deleted where she linked humanism with having anyone that was "less than 10% of the population" views shoved in her face and gay on TV being somehow connected to all this?  It went beyond a faith in God.  

 

No, I saw it and I actually had a reply to the one reply to it -- and also decided to delete mine.  We make mistakes, utilize the free editing (self-censorship) tools, and hopefully move on.  I've stuck my foot in my mouth a couple times in the last 20 minutes. I better get meself to church tonight.  I need quiet prayer. 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Even if it is, so what? I pass churches with sometimes provocative posted light-up signs, guys downtown and at transit centers on soapboxes spouting Bible verses and exhorting me to get saved.

The only reason I mentioned it is because someone insisted that these messages were not intended as proselytizing.

 

Why single these out when they are so very much the exception we can only post and repost a small handful of images in this entire country?

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I didn't like giant fetus billboards or any of that from Christian groups either. So, I wasn't singling them out.

[Catwoman]

I hate billboards, too. I think they're tacky, no matter what they're selling.

[nmoira]

Let's all unite in our hatred of billboards?

 

I'm there.

[nmoira]

The only reason I mentioned it is because someone insisted that these messages were not intended as proselytizing.

 

 

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I didn't like giant fetus billboards or any of that from Christian groups either. So, I wasn't singling them out.

Sorry I wasn't replying just to you, but also to a generalized frustration over the attention being paid to something that is notable partially because it's an exception (I've seen one "atheist" billboard, ever). I should have made that clearer. :)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Surely no-one looks at them and thinks 'Wow, what an aesthetic addition to my local landscape ?' Surely.

 

I do! I resent your implication that billboards make our world a less pleasant place. They convey important information, remind us that others have alternate viewpoints (e.g., cows who would like us to eat more chikin) and even occasionally make us laugh. Surely, if I can accept the overwhelming use of banners and placards, others can accept that there's a valid place in our environment for billboards!  :glare: