What would you do -- kids found a gun in the woods

[Momofeat]

 I mean, what if a little kid found the gun next and shot his eye out?  I know BB guns are generally harmless, but just today I read in the news about a dad who accidentally shot and killed his 18mo son with a BB gun.  I would be sitting my kids down and make a big deal about their not taking the appropriate actions after finding the gun.

 

 

A young teen in my county recently shot and killed his 4-yr. old cousin with a BB gun. They can be very dangerous.

[SKL]

Yes, Bill, I do eat meat and I am not sorry.  I therefore cannot claim to regret the fact that other people kill sentient beings.  PS, this thread is not about gun control.

[YaelAldrich]

The kids are currently brainstorming for solutions to the main problems at hand:  Chutzpah, not listening to parents, fighting amongst themselves and school-avoidance.  The gun thing will probably end up with a gun safety course, paid for by the kids.  

 

I'm not anti-gun, nor am I "have automatic assault weapons galore" either.  They are a weapon, a very deadly weapon.  I'm happy to have someone teach them how to shoot and to keep up that skill at ranges; I'm not interested in having guns in my home.  

 

My kids do love water and they learn how to swim at age three (in fact I started lessons for everyone last week); to me, it is the same idea.  Water is fun and dangerous, so are guns; they both need supervision and careful use.  

 

But that isn't the point of the thread, is it?? :)

[Laurie4b]

 it's not like they find unattended firearms in the woods every day, so this should have been a big deal to them, and I'm kind of surprised they didn't race to tell you about their big adventure.

 

I'm getting the impression that they knew they did something wrong, and they tried to hide it from you, which was absolutely wrong on their part, and would be more of an issue to me than the actual incident.

 

See, I would not jump to this conclusion as the mother of 4 boys 15-21. ( One is very into guns. The others are *yawn*)

 

Just because we beat something into their heads cognitively, doesn't mean that it computes. They found a BB gun. They didn't think. They did check that it wasn't loaded. A BB gun lying around someplace isn't really all that big a deal, so they might not be hiding it from their mom, they may just not be thinking about it.

 

OP, I would really suggest separating these two issues: the "backtalk/noncompliance" stuff from this one-time incident. Sounds like you are really peeved about last week already. (Totally understand. BTDT) But this isn't "one more thing." It's really separate.

 

I would discuss the incident with them once you've calmed down and discuss it by asking questions. How did you know it was a BB gun? Did you think about whether it might have been used in a crime and that's why it had been ditched? If it had been, what would have been the consequences of you picking it up? What if it was stolen and you picked it  up and then left it there with your fingerprints on it?" In other words, help them develop their thinking about it. They need to develop that kind of thinking through a sequence of possible events. 

 

I would be disinclined to punish them myself. I'd be inclined to train them as above. Or have dh give them responsibilities to "practice responsibility" on --the kind they should have used when they found the guns. Some real hard-work man jobs. Then later, not connected with this incident since they are going to have fun with it, do the gun safety course.

 

For the push-back you're getting in school, that is sooooo common in 12 year old boys and with a brother a few years above him, I can see the 9 year old copying. There have been numerous threads about boys that age (I'd say 11-14ish). They are picked up by aliens, and disappear for a few years, then come back the son you recall before the aliens came, just a few years older. Also, a whole lot of the issue is mother-son separation. Dh will likely need to take more of a role in school work. (I'd suggest searching the board. There is a lot of wisdom for this age group and I'm tired, so don't feel like typing out a bunch of stuff. But with 4 boys , I can say that what you're experiencing is par for the course.)

[YaelAldrich]

See, I would not jump to this conclusion as the mother of 4 boys 15-21. ( One is very into guns. The others are *yawn*)

 

Just because we beat something into their heads cognitively, doesn't mean that it computes. They found a BB gun. They didn't think. They did check that it wasn't loaded. A BB gun lying around someplace isn't really all that big a deal, so they might not be hiding it from their mom, they may just not be thinking about it.

 

OP, I would really suggest separating these two issues: the "backtalk/noncompliance" stuff from this one-time incident. Sounds like you are really peeved about last week already. (Totally understand. BTDT) But this isn't "one more thing." It's really separate.

 

I would discuss the incident with them once you've calmed down and discuss it by asking questions. How did you know it was a BB gun? Did you think about whether it might have been used in a crime and that's why it had been ditched? If it had been, what would have been the consequences of you picking it up? What if it was stolen and you picked it  up and then left it there with your fingerprints on it?" In other words, help them develop their thinking about it. They need to develop that kind of thinking through a sequence of possible events. 

 

I would be disinclined to punish them myself. I'd be inclined to train them as above. Or have dh give them responsibilities to "practice responsibility" on --the kind they should have used when they found the guns. Some real hard-work man jobs. Then later, not connected with this incident since they are going to have fun with it, do the gun safety course.

 

For the push-back you're getting in school, that is sooooo common in 12 year old boys and with a brother a few years above him, I can see the 9 year old copying. There have been numerous threads about boys that age (I'd say 11-14ish). They are picked up by aliens, and disappear for a few years, then come back the son you recall before the aliens came, just a few years older. Also, a whole lot of the issue is mother-son separation. Dh will likely need to take more of a role in school work. (I'd suggest searching the board. There is a lot of wisdom for this age group and I'm tired, so don't feel like typing out a bunch of stuff. But with 4 boys , I can say that what you're experiencing is par for the course.)

 Thanks for the advice -- I slept on it and then calmly asked them the same questions you suggested this morning.  I did separate the school/parental/siblings issues from the lying and the gun stuff.  Lying will get its own punishment -- no ability to have the freedoms they are used to for a while.  They are working on family/school rules (again) right now.  And I will discuss which gun safety course they will take with their father.  I'm not taking little kids to a range (even though I would love to learn to shoot myself), so he'll have to be in charge of this.  The yard looks much better now that they have raked it, mowed with our manual mower, pruned and weeded.  We have the backyard today or tomorrow.  I'm glad to save the $$$ that we would spend otherwise.  They need hard work -- that much I have learned from the Hive.  I will gladly help them do that.

[MomatHWTK]

Can he do the work - yes.  Does he want to do the work - no.  He won't even button his pants because it is too much effort.  He would rather pull them over his hips even though it takes longer.  If it is hard and requires thinking or effort he's not into it.  His fine motor skills have not always been the best but I have seen adequate progress over the years.  His cursive is loads better than his print writing, and he can memorize loads of information he gets from reading, but when it comes to capitalizing words at the beginning of sentences, forget it.  I've tried rewards, consequences, and everything else, so I want to rule out any organic issues and get more advice.  

 

Based on my personal experience and the research I'ev done, the not doing simple things because of the effort involved are classic symptoms for both ADHD and ASD. It is very annoying the things a child who suffers from either of these conditions will avoid doing! 

 

Honestly, I continue to be amazed at the behaviors that can link back to a specific personality or LD that I never would have suspected.  Maybe you will get some answers from an evaluation that can help you. 

 

On the current bru ha ha- I see two issues...  First, there is a building resentment on your part due to the lack of cooperation in school.  I totally get that- my kids sometimes get the same lecture two or three times a week and still totally dis' me.  Second, I think the fact that it was a firearms offense,  is coloring the emotional level of your reaction.  The infraction was bad, but the fact that it also involved something you strongly dislike and wish the children had no interest in to begin with makes it worse.  KWIM? 

 

The problem with latter issue is that they are individuals with minds of their own.  No matter what you do or say, it is unlikely that they are going to change their interests.  The boys may change their own minds over time, but I doubt it will be just to be in agreement with you.  So you can set rules like 'not in my house,'  but if they enjoy studying firearms- not likely they will stop wanting to do so.  I think as a parent, then you may have to get over your distaste for this hobby and meet them where they are.  Thinking like a teenage- if they feel that you are emotionallly biased against guns and are wrong for being so (because that's how teens think) then they may be discounting all your other advice on the topic.  KWIM?  You simply cease to become a credible source. 

 

On the first issue, you may be facing an overall lack of respect problem.  This would manifest with the school issues as well as the doing what they thought was best rather than what you instructed with the gun issue.  The problem then becomes, how does one restore respect in the relationship?  I have found that one to be a very difficult nut to crack! 

 

I have had more success with getting back to a respectful setting if I address that problem as a stand alone issue.  Instead of attacking the lack of school participation directly, I let them know that the behavior is a sign of disrespect and that is the true problem. 

 

I will note that we do have diagnosed ADHD here.  One of my other children I am certain will be diagnosed with the same.  It is not a 'hyper' issue but an executive function issue.  His brain works like this:  Problem- solve/act-forget.  Rather than: Problem-think about solutions- weigh consequences of solutions- rely on past instruction and experience- act- evaluate.  Sigh.   His methodology ends up with him often sitting in the middle of the consequences of the act and then trying to figure out how to get himself out of the mess. 

 

 

Down to just the gun issue- I don't like that they handled the gun (and I am a gun "nut") The firing it toward the ground was particularly unwise because it jammed and could have "unjammed" at a later date while they were carrying around.  As a 'gun nut' I would say that's just plain stupid.  (Sorry)  So yes, think a safety class is in order.  If you aren't comfortable with one taught by the NRA- the Eddie Eagle program, then talk to local law enforcement about other options.  To me the behavior sounds like showing off or assuming that then knew more than they did.  Thinking you know how to handle a gun when you don't is foolish, I'm totally with you on that one. 

 

Second, they (a large group of kids) hid the gun.  And who was it that was going to guarantee that the 4 y.o. or one of the other younger kids didn't come back for it and try to play with it?  If your sons were being responsible and really knew as much about guns as they think they do, they would not have left something that dangerous out where the other children could get to it.  If they were going to touch the darn thing, they should have carried it straight to an adult.  (But again, impulse thinking over reasoning may have come into play?)  I would say the entire group of kids needs to have a strong talking to by someone in authority at the synagogue about the conspiring to conceal issues. 

 

I can't say under the circumstances that I wouldn't be coming down very hard on my kids.  But, when you do, make sure it is in such a way that gets to the root issue.  "Son, it is not because I hate guns, but because what you did was foolish and dangerous."  "Son, it is not because I want you do exactly what I say, but because you need to show me respect and treat me nicely..."  KWIM?  I was a very logic based kid (probably a little ASD going on) and if my parents made emotion based arguments, I totally wrote off whatever they were saying. - I am still quite a handful.  :)

 

ETA: It sounds like the other kids did a good job of trying to downplay their own involvement, so you may need to get the whole group together in order to get the real story. 

 

ETA again:  I hadn't seen the most recent posts prior to the above response.  So disregard the parts that are now totally inapplicable. :)

[YaelAldrich]

 

On the current bru ha ha- I see two issues...  First, there is a building resentment on your part due to the lack of cooperation in school.  I totally get that- my kids sometimes get the same lecture two or three times a week and still totally dis' me.  Second, I think the fact that it was a firearms offense, and you are adamantly opposed to fire arms is coloring the emotional level of your reaction.  The infraction was bad, but the fact that it also involved something you strongly dislike and wish the children had no interest in to begin with makes it worse.  KWIM? 

 

I don't hate guns though -- my in-laws do and they go ballistic (lol) when they hear that the kids went and shot a BB gun (supervised) at a friend's house or at the State Fair (again supervised) .  So that isn't an issue, but thanks for the advice anyways!

[MomatHWTK]

Yeah, I thought I'd edited that part out when I did my second ETA, sorry.  In-laws, ballistic- Good one. LOL!

 

Sorry your boys are giving you grief.  I have 3 boys coming up, so I'm sure I'm in for it.  For the next 15 years! 

[YaelAldrich]

ETA: It sounds like the other kids did a good job of trying to downplay their own involvement, so you may need to get the whole group together in order to get the real story. 

 

 

Yeah, this is a part that kinda bugs me.  The kids here have a culture of whining/blaming that is annoying. I tell them to talk to each other and work things out and they don't; they'd rather come to the parents and whine.  The little kids also try to get other kids in trouble even if they aren't in the same area.  I've had several kids come up to me to tell me that my little kid is hitting them. So I made him come in from the action for a bit.  They come back to tell me he is hitting them and I tell them that my son is playing in this room with me away from them and it's impossible for him to hit you while he is next to me.  They whine some more about him hitting and I tell them to go play without him.  

 

I'm not going to be the one doing the getting the group together; we are too new and different since we are the only ones with kids in the younger years homeschooling  (everyone else sends their kids to school).

[swellmomma]

I just read your post about how the other kids weren't in class etc.  I heard it with a tone of disdain though that may not have been intended.  It seems you do not agree with what those parents allow and yet it was those kids that told and adult and didn't lie about it. I mean this kindly since I don't know you personally to know for sure, but based on the tone I read in that post, and the way you are speaking about your kids and their attitudes.  My suspicion is the other kids don't want to be in the class you teach for the same reason your kids are rebelling so much and keeping secrets etc and that is you are too domineering.  Instead of authorative, you are authoratarian, 2 different things, and very easy to slip into if you are not careful.  From what I am reading as an outsider you are a very punative parent, there is very little true relationship there, and if you are that way with your own I can imagine you are with the students in that class.  Instead of coming across as the adult in charge, you come across as the adult that bullies.  And I highly doubt that was ever your intention, but honestly even with kids who rebel etc if you have their heart, if you have that relationship you don't feel like you have to crack the whip harder and harder.  They don't feel they have to keep things secret to avoid punishment.  My oldest if you have followed any of my posts over the years is a tough nut. I am a tough parent.  Our parent/child relationship has had its ups and downs over the years, and I always know when I have been missing that component with him when he starts getting into trouble for everything.  Despite the crap he pulls and the attitude he cops, on the whole he knows he can come to me about anything, and he does.  I know far more about my son than any mother should haha.  This is especially true with the big things like the found guns etc.  That doesn't mean he doesn't try to cover something up with a lie, he's a kid of course he does at times, and I punish for lieing, but on the whole he comes clean fairly quickly, or he tells me what is going on straight away.  You can hold the authority without being a hard a$$, it is a fine line at times, but you honestly don't speak about your kids in a good way.  I mean I get the frustration, but they are just kids and they screwed up but honestly from what I am ready so have you.  I mean to take away prayer time (which going on their own I think is a resonable thing even though they found a gun in the woods) is ridiculous.  You don't take away religious services, ceremonies etc  Even if they can pray anywhere it is the fact you are using it as a punishment to take away them going alone when they previously were able to, means you are using religion as a weapon.  Want to know what happens to kids who grow up that way? they turn their backs on their religion completely.  What you want is for them to have the character building time in prayer, in religious classes, in services etc, you need to build that connection, not use it as a punishment because you ran out of other things to take away.

Honestly what I would do (and have done with my own), is sit the kids down.  Apologize for being so hard, for punishing so much.  Let them know you have found it hard to know what to do when they are backtalking and rude because you love them so much and want to make sure they grow up to be amazing adults.  But that sometimes parents make mistakes when they are trying to raise their kids right.  Tell them you know when kids are fighting with their parents that much it is because they feel they are not being heard.  Ask what it is you are not hearing.  What do they need?  My bet, based on my experiences with my own, they will say family time, cuddle time, playing games, having fun, baking together and all sorts of other things that foster a strong relationship with your kids. 

It might be true your kids are just plain difficult and you are being kind and gentle etc, I have one that is plain difficult, it is a huge challenge.  BUT most kids do want a positive relationship with their parents.  They WANT to please them and it causes them heartache when they dissappoint them BUT if they live in home where everything they do is a disappointment to the parents they stop even trying, they close off their hearts to their parents, they rebel more.  On that I speak with authority having been one of kids.  Nothing I did was good enough, every childish mistake was punished.  It's not a healthy way to grow up, at all.  Break that pattern now, apologize to the kids, talk, love and connect with them and recind all punishments about this incident.  Tell them you over reacted out of fear of their safety around the gun, but now that your mama heart has calmed down and you can see they are safe you realize you were being unfair.  It does not hinder your authority with your kids to do that, in fact it elevates it.  Kids need to see parents make mistakes too.  They need to see their parents own those mistakes and apologize.  They learn through these interactions, the mistakes happen and through grace we forgive those mistakes without looking to even the score. 

[YaelAldrich]

SwellMomma,  thank you for your comments.  I just started this class last week as we just moved to this community, so if they picked up my bossiness that fast, they are good!  

 

Our children have their parents concern and caring that they know how to behave in a sanctuary and synagogue and are not allowed to be there if they cannot behave.  My older two can do that and that is why they have been able to go by themselves for several years now.  My younger two are too young and therefore they cannot handle going by themselves and I supervise them when we go to synagogue.  We go to the playground or in the lobby to talk quietly, or even into the sanctuary for the last 10 minutes of services (mind you services last 2.5-3 hours on Saturday morning), but I don't let them roam like every other child there (close to 20 kids from 3-16) and that is what I do disdain.   I don't think the synagogue is a drop off location because the parents are too tired or busy or whatever to take care of their kids.  So I volunteered to work with the kids in order to keep them safe.

 

My goals were trying to get the children to pray some of the formal prayers (some know none, some know some, some know lots), act out parts from the Torah (Bible) portion of the week for 5 minutes,  and then snacks and playing outside under supervision.    There were children there that were outside the ages that had been set (6-12), there were pre-schoolers throwing food all over the room, screamers and  such that would not leave.  I wasn't going to start hauling children out so I soldiered on.  The boys in question never came in; they hang out all over the place every week.

 

These other kids found the gun in the first place and brought my kids to see it after services during lunch.  I should have continued my vigilance and I did not.  For that I have apologized to my kids.  I am a hard-a$$ parent and I expect my children not to be perfect but to be aware of their best possible behavior and strive for it.  Most of the time they do and when they don't I let them know that I do have expectations for them.  I do have a warm relationship with them, but don't want to tolerate incorrect behavior.  

 

Now I have to run to the pool for some last minute sunny-day fun with these kids of mine.  Ciao!

[bolt.]

Bolt, I'd love to hear your parenting theories and what you would do if you children broke gun safety rules you had set and then lied to you about said breaking of rules.  Please don't start with the premise that your children would never break gun safety rules; that won't help me.  What age children do you have?

My oldest child is 8, so I'm largely using my imagination here, but based on my current practices I think I'd probably...

 

1. Recall that they did not break gun safety rules. The BB gun was clearly marked with a sticker, and they at no time thought of it as an actual firearm. (Also, in my scenario, they don't lie, because I don't ask them if anything happened. It's not a lie to just not talk about some of the day's events.)

 

2. Re-frame this as breaking *toy* safety rules, in a high-stress peer-group unsupervised situation, which was completely unusual, and unlikely to re-occur.

 

3. Tell them that I was concerned about them when I learned that they had a stressful incident about a BB gun that they found yesterday, ask them if they slept OK and if it was still bothering them.

 

4. Tell them that I didn't quite get the whole story from the person who let me know, and I'd like to know all that happened.

 

5. Practice active listening with plenty of shows of concern as they told the whole story without interruption... being careful to let pauses hang until the child/ren began speaking again.

 

6. Ask questions about how they felt and what they were thinking. These would be honest questions, without 'judgement' implied -- because I actually want to understand their thinking process if I plan on trying to change it.

 

7. Say things like, "Whew. You had quite a day. I'm also curious why you didn't want any adult help with all of that." (Let the pauses hang, practice active listening, look genuinely curious and/or pleased that they are satisfying your curiosity and helping you understand their brains.)

 

8a. If they said anything like they were worried I would over react, respond like, "I can see why you thought that. I've been a bit stressed lately, and I do think guns and gun-like toys are a big deal. I'm sorry you didn't think I'd be a good helper. I *am* working on being a good helper, instead of over reacting lots of times."

 

8b. If they said they thought it was all fun and games, or that they thought that, "Hey somebody lost their BB gun." -- just wasn't the kind of issue that warranted any adult involvement (they weren't stressed and just didn't think it was an important event), I'd respond like, "Oh, I get it. You were thinking of it as a lost toy -- not a found weapon -- so it didn't really matter to you."

 

8c. If they indicated that they thought the issue was that they found a BB gun, a toy that they had been wanting, and were sorely tempted to hide it for the sake of keeping it and having it to play with without my knowledge, I'd respond that I was proud of them for resisting the temptation to steal and lie. I'd probably give them ice cream.

 

9. I'd explain why the event matters to me, using "I" statements and sounding like now I'm letting them know my thoughts politely, just like they just finished letting me know their thoughts. I'd go into how BB guns are quite a dangerous toy that some places even consider to be a real weapon -- and that especially a rusted one could have really hurt a child, such as going off in their hands (or whatever). I'd let my fear show. I'd talk about how moms feel when their children risk life and limb just because they find something that looks like fun. If you have pets, I'd use an example like how they would feel if they saw the dog using a bottle of poison as a chew toy -- the dog didn't know, but boy does it scare the family.

 

10. I'd ask if they understood my perspective and ask them to say what they think I meant. I'd correct any errors of understanding. I'd provide evidence for my ideas like news articles / internet videos.

 

11. I'd ask if I'd changed their minds about finding dangerous toys, or toys that might be made dangerous by being left outside, or by being broken -- asking if they knew then what they know now, if they think they would have acted differently.

 

12a. If they said they would have acted differently, I'd get all the details of exactly what they think the right thing to do would have been. Extrapolate to other possibly dangerous findings, such as broken toys, construction materials, glass, minerals, dead animals, and non-marked BB guns / possible real firearms.

 

12b. If they seemed resistant to my view of plausibly dangerous toys, I might ask what they thought they could do to ease my mind, and get all the details of that. I might also tell them that they'd be under closer supervision until they seemed to recognize for themselves the various risks that are easier to see with adult eyes.

 

13. Maybe: Take them back to where it happened and have them "run through" the way it should have happened in the first time, as a sort of exercise in drama.

 

14: Maybe: Have them write apology notes to the other kids who were present (since each of them did handle the possibly dangerous toy, even pulling the trigger, thereby putting their playmates at risk) being specific about the risks of a BB gun.

 

15. Tell them how relieved I am that this was only a "possibly" dangerous toy, that turned out not to hurt anyone. Kiss them all and say how lucky and blessed I am that nothing that could have gone terribly wrong did go terribly wrong. Tell them that I feel safer now that I know that they really understand better about not taking these kinds of risks with found items -- that I really believe in them and know they will make sure never to do anything like this now that they really get it. They are so smart, safety conscious, group-assertive, reliable, etc.

 

16. Maybe: have them take gun safety classes and/or be able to use weapons or BB guns in a practice environment. It doesn't need to be a forbidden fruit. Kids rarely handle forbidden fruit well.

 

Oh... and cookies. There should be cookies during all this talking. Cookies help kids tell the truth about what they were thinking and feeling in a situation that didn't go well. I don't really know why. It must be psychological.

[Spy Car]

Kids don't always handle "permitted fruit" well either, as Nancy Lanza could attest to (were she alive).

 

How soon we forget.

 

Bill

[SKL]

Kids don't always handle "permitted fruit" well either, as Nancy Lanza could attest to (were she alive).

 

How soon we forget.

 

Bill

 

I shall take the high road so the OP's post does not get locked.

[Tammi K]

...

 

1. Recall that they did not break gun safety rules. The BB gun was clearly marked with a sticker, and they at no time thought of it as an actual firearm. (Also, in my scenario, they don't lie, because I don't ask them if anything happened. It's not a lie to just not talk about some of the day's events.)

 

 

I was telling my children about this post this morning and asked my 12 year old what he thought. I asked if he thought it was wrong for kids to pick up a gun. His response, "Mom, it's a BB gun. That's not the same thing as a real gun!" 

 

Bolt, great post. I love your approach. I like to imagine I relate to my children in a similar way (in my saner moments.)

[bolt.]

I pretty much use my imagination (regarding older children) and my saner moments to write advice on forums. I guarantee that I have less than wonderful moments too! (In fact, I sometimes stop and ask myself: "If this situation was on a forum right now, is *this* what I would be telling the other mom to be doing?")

[Barbara H]

Sometimes what kids really need to hear from us most of all is our honest emotion. You were scared. You were scared for a reason. Big hug and a relief that they are okay. There are plenty of rules we follow for reasons like social convention or because we are told to. This is is an issue bigger than that.

 

On a somewhat related note, for podcast fans there was a good story on This American Life about teenagers and guns. What struck me about it is that parents can really never be sure about the way teenagers will think. We can try our best, but we should probably never be too certain. "Christine Gentry grew up in a house in Texas where there was one important rule above all others. It came from her dad: we have loaded guns in the house, and even though I’ve taught you how to shoot them, no one can ever touch them without me being there. As far as anyone in the family knew the kids grew up obeying that rule. Until this past December when Christine confesses to the one time when — as a teenager — that she broke the rule."  It is act 2, I can't say I remember if the language was all G rated, it isn't always on this show. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/498/the-one-thing-youre-not-supposed-to-do?act=2

[awisha.]

Yes, they should have. They wouldn't have gotten in trouble for that at all! But touching, checking if the gun is loaded and then not telling me they found a gun are going to get them in trouble. I think I may them pay for a gun safety course (that will make them say ouch - they hate having to spend their own cash) in addition to the total grounding they are going to get. Their Nerf guns are going to go away forever as well.

 

Sigh. Any more advice or sympathy greatly and gratefully accepted.

Holy Overreaction Batman!!

[Mommyfaithe]

There is a difference between you knowing that you wouldn't have given consequences for telling you what they had done about the BB gun... And them actually believing that you wouldn't. If you want them to be honest when they make mistakes, it's *they* who have to believe that doing so will not go badly for them. They clearly don't. You might be wise to start workjng hard at convincing them that you are more of a helper than a punisher when they screw up.

You know what? In real life when people screw up they pay the piper! No way would my kids get away scot free being a bunch of boneheads! I am their advocate which means when they screw up, they know it. No miss nicely nicely as I wave to them as the police hail their little butts away. They are learners and need to know what they did was wrong and there are consequences to bad behavior. Period. End of story. Yael, never let th see you sweat. Be very matter of fact. You do. Not need two little best friends....they need to know you got their back, which means calling th on their stupidity and teaching them how to pay a consequence without getting all Ben out

[bolt.]

Kids are boneheads. If they had good judgement they would be called "small grown ups". The fact that they need to learn better judgement does not mean that you have to make them "pay the piper" in order to be an effective teacher.

They are really much more likely to willingly learn from you if you don't make yourself into their adversary -- one who adds extra trouble to their misjudgements.

[Kate in Arabia]

Our children have their parents concern and caring that they know how to behave in a sanctuary and synagogue and are not allowed to be there if they cannot behave.  My older two can do that and that is why they have been able to go by themselves for several years now.  My younger two are too young and therefore they cannot handle going by themselves and I supervise them when we go to synagogue.  We go to the playground or in the lobby to talk quietly, or even into the sanctuary for the last 10 minutes of services (mind you services last 2.5-3 hours on Saturday morning), but I don't let them roam like every other child there (close to 20 kids from 3-16) and that is what I do disdain.   I don't think the synagogue is a drop off location because the parents are too tired or busy or whatever to take care of their kids.  So I volunteered to work with the kids in order to eep them safe.

 

We have some related issues.  My boys go to a class at our local masjid that meets for 2-3 hours between the two evening prayers.  It's maybe 30+ kids in similar age ranges as you mention here.  The problem isn't during the class, it's during the prayers when the teacher goes into the masjid, along with all the older kids.  And understandably, he doesn't feel responsible for all these kids during those times, since officially the class time starts after the prayer and ends when the next prayer starts -- but parents were dropping off their kids like it was a babysitting service and going about their business.

 

It culminated in a really small boy (I think he was 4?) leaving, crossing the parking lot and a busy street, and his father came to pick him up at the classroom (late, after prayers) and he wasn't there.  In the end, the teacher had to say that you can't leave your younger kids unattended -- that means you can't just drop them off at the prayer time (before class starts), nor can you be late to pick them up.   I personally think that in this case the father was the one responsible since he left his child there outside of class times when he knew there wouldn't be an adult in charge, but you can bet he didn't see it that way.

 

I think it's really great that you're trying to help out the community, but honestly I would not do that at all without the express involvement of all the parents.  It's nice that the dads are trying to give the moms at home a break -- how about they spend that time with their kids instead of dropping them off somewhere?  And while I'm saying that to you, I also say it first to the fathers who bring their kids to the masjid and drop them off at a classroom, and won't take them into the prayer hall with them to supervise/model good behavior.  I've been sitting outside the masjid sometimes waiting for my boys and I can see that it's really almost a pack mentality that takes over these kids when they are left completely to their own devices in a group that size.

[Mommyof4ks]

Glad things worked out after you had time to cool down and think. That is hard, and it is hard to go to our kids and apologize and explain why we were so frustrated and upset. I have done that many times myself. That does not get them out of punishment for whatever they did, in this case lying, but it does show them that we are not angry just trying to teach them how to behave and it shows them how adults handle fallouts like that.

 

As for the BB gun in the woods, maybe they should not have touched it, but they did handle the situation well once they decided to touch it. Checking to see if it is loaded is very important. It is better for an older child, basically any child who is wise enough to think to see if it is loaded, to check that than to leave it on the ground for a toddler to find even in the few minutes it takes to find an adult. This was not a real gun, and he knew the difference, that to is very important. My dh takes care of the gun safety in our home, and I saw a huge change in respect of real firearms when he took my boys to shoot a real gun at a range. Up until that point they probably would have picked up a real gun they found, because they wanted to know what it felt like and how it worked, but now they know how powerful they are and only touch them in the presence of my dh (we have had an incident similar to what you described, and they left it alone and sent one child to get me). There was a 20/20 years ago on what kids will do if they find a gun, and even kids who had been told not to ever touch them still did and some even pointed them at other people. It was a scary video to watch. Those guns obviously were not loaded and had no potential to hurt the kids, but it was interesting.

[umsami]

I was telling my children about this post this morning and asked my 12 year old what he thought. I asked if he thought it was wrong for kids to pick up a gun. His response, "Mom, it's a BB gun. That's not the same thing as a real gun!" 

 

Bolt, great post. I love your approach. I like to imagine I relate to my children in a similar way (in my saner moments.)

 

I really think the whole "a BB gun is not a real gun" is a big problem.  BB guns can do just as much damage.  As I said before, DH is an ophthalmologist and basically a kid last year lost his eye to a BB gun.  Wasn't the first time, either.   Guns, even BB guns, are dangerous.  They are REAL guns that can kill and do massive harm.  Don't let your kids think that it's a real gun that requires any less safety protocol.  

 

Part of the issue (with related to the eye) is the actual BBs, but the fact that they can be made of copper, and the metal itself is toxic to the eye.

 

"At close range, projectiles from many BB and pellet guns, especially those with velocities greater than 350 fps, can cause tissue damage similar to that inflicted by powder-charged bullets fired from low-velocity conventional firearms (3). Injuries associated with use of these guns can result in permanent disability or death (4); injuries from BBs or pellets projected from air guns involving the eye particularly are severe (5). For example, based on data from the National Eye Trauma System and the United States Eye Injury Registry -- a system of voluntary reporting by ophthalmologists -- projectiles from air guns account for 63% of reported perforating eye injuries that occur in recreational settings (6)."  http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00039773.htm

[bolt.]

If BB guns are too dangerous to touch if found -- it's fine to teach kids that rule (I just might do that!) BUT it's perfectly normal for children who think of BB guns as toys to treat them as toys.

 

It's not reasonable to expect them to naturally follow the rules for "found a firearm" when a BB gun is not a firearm, and they knew it wasn't a firearm. It's not that it wasn't dangerous as itself -- it's that the kids broke no rule known to them at the time (by touching it), certainly not a 'super important big family rule about guns' and should not be punished in a way that implies that they did.

[YaelAldrich]

In our family BB guns are GUNS.  They broke a rule.  Full stop.  They got an earful yesterday.  They are working outside and inside today.  

[MomatHWTK]

I may be reading the updates incorrectly, but it appears that the OP's kids intentionally chose to go into the woods to see a gun that the other children had already found.  If that is the case, then they didn't just stumble across something they considered a toy.  They willfully elected to listen to their peers, follow them into what could be a dangerous situation and then do all the things they had been told not to do in such a situation.  The appropriate action, based on what they had been told and what I would certainly hope my kids would do, would be to immediately tell an adult that there might be a gun in the woods at let the adult investigate.  This and the hiding of the item later all points to follower, not leader. 

 

 

As I mentioned in another post, if my kids are followers they get much tighter supervision than if I can trust them to do what they have been taught.  (I am in an odd situation because my ASD kid thus far has proven incapable of lying.  I know that may change but right now it seems hard wired. :) )

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sounds like you knew how you wanted to react to this all along.  

[bolt.]

Are you really saying that your children either,

 

(a ) can not *tell* the difference between BB guns and firearms

 

or

 

(b ) that you have specifically, recently and frequently tell them that the rules for BB guns and the rules for firearms are identical, and every time they mention BB guns, you respond with exactly the same words you would have if the had mentioned a firearm.

 

(ie: "Mom, Billy has a BB gun. Can we get one?" -- "What? Billy has a GUN? I don't think you should play with him any more, that's soo dangerous. It's not right for children to have GUNS! Isn't it illegal or something? I think I should talk to his mom and maybe call CPS. Wait! What do you mean you want a GUN too?!? What could you possibly want a gun for! You can have a gun when you get a hunting license or become a police officer -- or over my dead body." ... because that's what you would say if they told you Billy had something you really thought was an "actual" gun and they wanted one too. If my kids wanted me to buy them a gun... well, I'd be deeply concerned.)

 

Honestly, kids are concrete thinkers. If you don't talk like its a gun, and they've seen one before, and they know that kids have/use them, etc. They are absolutely incapable of thinking of BB guns in the same category as 'regular guns'.

 

Yeah, I'm with Jean, "Sounds like you knew how you wanted to react to this all along." -- But maybe you'll think about different strategies to respond to some future event. There's lots of opportunities to try a variety of approaches (other than the good old "lecture them, punish them with physical labour and hope it works" idea).

[SKL]

Since some of her kids are pretty young, I could see having a rule that BB guns as well as "real" guns are to be treated a certain way.

[mirth]

 

 

 

 

 

What would be your next plan of action?

Dear YaelAldrich,

 

While I don't think any of the punitive measures you were considering are over the top,  they might miss the mark on exactly what you want them to do, without question without fail, if this happens again.  If you can write down your wishes in a sentence or two on what you want them to do, tell them this and promise to pay them each $50 cash if they follow your prescription exactly.

 

For me, it would be something like this:

Do not touch the firearm or thing that looks like a firearm.  Leave the area immediately.  Tell an adult straightaway.  Do not go back to that area no matter what the adult suggests you do.  You may point; you may gesture; you may describe the location in excruciatingly vivid prose that would put Henry James to shame.  Do not go back there to "help" --  with or without the adult.  Failure to comply with any portion of the above will disabuse you of the idea that I can be flexible on this particular way to earn an easy $50 cash.

 

Pray about it, and paint the picture you want.  Incentivize them to to replicate your painting.   You are a good painter.

[YaelAldrich]

Are you really saying that your children either,

 

(a) can not *tell* the difference between BB guns and firearms

 

or

 

( B) that you have specifically, recently and frequently tell them that the rules for BB guns and the rules for firearms are identical, and every time they mention BB guns, you respond with exactly the same words you would have if the had mentioned a firearm.

 

(ie: "Mom, Billy has a BB gun. Can we get one?" -- "What? Billy has a GUN? I don't think you should play with him any more, that's soo dangerous. It's not right for children to have GUNS! Isn't it illegal or something? I think I should talk to his mom and maybe call CPS. Wait! What do you mean you want a GUN too?!? What could you possibly want a gun for! You can have a gun when you get a hunting license or become a police officer -- or over my dead body." ... because that's what you would say if they told you Billy had something you really thought was an "actual" gun and they wanted one too. If my kids wanted me to buy them a gun... well, I'd be deeply concerned.)

 

Honestly, kids are concrete thinkers. If you don't talk like its a gun, and they've seen one before, and they know that kids have/use them, etc. They are absolutely incapable of thinking of BB guns in the same category as 'regular guns'.

 

Yeah, I'm with Jean, "Sounds like you knew how you wanted to react to this all along." -- But maybe you'll think about different strategies to respond to some future event. There's lots of opportunities to try a variety of approaches (other than the good old "lecture them, punish them with physical labour and hope it works" idea).

My dear Bolt, I believe you are being obtuse right now.  My kids know a fair bit about guns. They also know any gun (BB, pellet, airsoft, paint, etc) needs adult supervision to use or touch.  They broke that rule willingly.

 

I will state again I am not anti-gun, nor I am pro-"get as many automatic assault weapons as possible".  BB guns look like guns in that they have a barrel, stock, etc.  Water guns, for example, do not look like guns.  They are brightly colored and plastic.  

 

Some of their friends have BB guns and with adult supervision (and safety equipment) they have shot happily at targets and such.   Yes, children are concrete thinkers, especially at your children's age. The children in question are older and have abstract thinking skills and use them (at times).  I had thought they had internalized the messages; they did not.  I am disappointed and let them know they have disappointed me by breaking our clearly stated rules (for their and others safety) and then lying about said breaking of rules.

[bolt.]

They also know any gun (BB, pellet, airsoft, paint, etc) needs adult supervision to use or touch.  They broke that rule willingly.

Absolutely!!! That's the rule they broke. A rule about adult supervision, not a rule about firearms safety. That's all I'm getting at. There are different levels of rules: rules meant to govern your conduct are different from rules meant to keep you alive. It's obvious that they know (and know that you know) that real guns and BB guns are "different" in exactly how dangerous they are. You are finding fault in them for not being able to ignore that knowledge, for not being able to *pretend* that firearms and BB guns require exactly the same precautions for exactly the same reasons.

 

 

 

I had thought they had internalized the messages; they did not.  I am disappointed and let them know they have disappointed me by breaking our clearly stated rules (for their and others safety) and then lying about said breaking of rules.

It's just so very odd that you resist all the best ideas here about helping them internalize the message more deeply through this incident -- instead placing all your focus on making them really regret getting found out after breaking a rule. It's a classic disciplinary misdirection, and I'd say it is totally likely to backfire (except, of course, that the chances of them finding another gun or gun-like object in the woods is a very remote possibility at this point). Therefore it's not likely to do anything more slightly than build resentment and increase oppositional attitudes... but you seem content to accept that as an "given" in your parenting anyways, so I can see why it doesn't seem possible to avoid it through your own strategic choices right now.

[MomatHWTK]

I have to say, I don't think rejecting someone else's parenting style requires repeated warnings that doing so is in err.  We get it, bolt would go all touchy feely any anyone who doesn't is a cruel dictator destined for parental failure.  Message received. 

 

The fact is, no one has the parenting playbook.  If my children resent me because I caught them blatently lying and breaking clearly defined rules, doing something incredibly stupid and yes, very dangerous, then that's on them.  And to presume that someone doesn't have a good relationship with their children simply because they choose a different method to address deceit is just foolish. 

 

BB guns are a dangerous weapon if not used properly.  They shoot a projectile capable of piercing the skin or entering eyes and causing death.  It is foolish to treat them as if they are a toy and anyone doing so, IMO, knows very little about guns or physics. 

 

End tirade. 

[Mrs Mungo]

The question is: what would *I* do if my kids found a gun in the woods, messed around with it, didn't tell an adult and failed to tell me?

 

They would be taking a gun safety class. My older kids have already taken gun safety classes and skeet shooting classes (you see, many guns are designed for shooting animals, then eating them). The classes were not taught by "gun-nuts" (talk about inflammatory rhetoric), but by people who care about children's safety. I would put a BB gun found in the woods in the "gun" category. Most gun incidents (accidental shootings, etc) happen in heavy peer pressure environments. I would have a conversation with my kids about that, maybe even have a police officer talk to them about it.

 

The rest of the posts seem to be you justifying your own position, but you asked what *I* would do. So, I am going to stick to that.

[bolt.]

We get it, bolt would go all touchy feely any anyone who doesn't is a cruel dictator destined for parental failure.  Message received.

If that's the message that you are receiving, then I am miscommunicating badly, and I apologize. I'm tempted to try to clarify, but it would probably come out wrong too. I've really tried to be as open and helpful as I know how to be... but, hey, we all suck at something, sometimes. Sorry to all readers who have been put out by whatever is coming across wrongly here.

 

I most especially apologize to anyone who personally feels that I would judge them "a cruel dictator destined for parental failure". I would never think that about any normal parenting technique, nor would I willingly/knowingly participate in demoralizing any parent in that way. I was trying to speak about the connections between strategies and goals in the abstract. I got carried away. (I'll have to re-read in a few weeks so I can take note and not do it again.)

[Spy Car]

Let's see if I follow the logic:

 

You've got kids who are being cheeky, disrespectful, defiant of authority, and—on this occasion at least—dishonest.

 

And the answer to the problem is "let's get them mixed up with guns?"

 

Utter madness.

 

Bill

[morganvicky98]

As a good mom (yiddishe mammeh), you are understandably concerned. However, surely you realize that anger is destructive, especially at that age. You need to find a time where they are happy and you feel like the communication lines are open and then gently bring up the danger of guns. Penalizing them won't solve anything - they'll only make double sure the next time that you don't find out. Hatzlacha.

[Mrs Mungo]

Let's see if I follow the logic:

 

You've got kids who are being cheeky, disrespectful, defiant of authority, and—on this occasion at least—dishonest.

 

And the answer to the problem is "let's get them mixed up with guns?"

 

Utter madness.

You clearly have not taken the sort of class that my kids took.

 

It definitely is *not* "getting them mixed up with guns." The guns used by Adam Lanza were not what you would use for skeet shooting. In skeet shooting you generally use a double-barreled shot gun (often an over-and-under) that can fire *two* rounds at a time. Learning about guns is not "getting them mixed up with guns." Even if they did rifle tournaments (as my dh did as a child), they don't use the types of guns that Adam Lanza had access to. You are way, way off base in your replies, IMO.

[Spy Car]

You clearly have not taken the sort of class that my kids took.

 

It definitely is *not* "getting them mixed up with guns." The guns used by Adam Lanza were not what you would use for skeet shooting. In skeet shooting you generally use a double-barreled shot gun (often an over-and-under) that can fire *two* rounds at a time. Learning about guns is not "getting them mixed up with guns." Even if they did rifle tournaments (as my dh did as a child), they don't use the types of guns that Adam Lanza had access to. You are way, way off base in your replies, IMO.

 

I've been on the planet a long time, and have had plenty of exposure to gun-ranges and gun-culture. 

 

Nancy Lanza thought it was a good idea to take her troubled son to gun ranges. That was a tragically bad decision.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

I've been on the planet a long time, and have had plenty of exposure to gun-ranges and gun-culture.

You have not been exposed to the sort of gun classes and gun ranges that exist on military posts and within the military community. I have experienced both. They are not the same. The military community places a FAR greater emphasis on safety.

 

Eta: I can also imagine that it is less "the norm" to have gun classes where you live than elsewhere in the country. Therefore, they are more likely to be populated by extremists rather than normal, everyday, non-nuts-of-any-kind.

 

Nancy Lanza though it was a good idea to take her troubled son to gun ranges. That was a tragically bad decision.

Equating every person who owns a gun or whose child has taken a gun safety class with Nancy Lanza is a terrible argument. Thousands and thousands of kids have been through gun safety classes without shooting up elementary schools. It is not an argument that will get anywhere with most thinking people.

 

FAR more kids are involved in accidental/negligent shootings (which is what *could have* happened to the OP's children very easily) than intentional, plotted out shooting sprees.

[Catwoman]

Nancy Lanza thought it was a good idea to take her troubled son to gun ranges. That was a tragically bad decision.

 

Bill

 

I don't think anyone would suggest that Nancy Lanza didn't make a lot of bad decisions. It also sounds like she had some major issues and was thoroughly obsessed with guns -- and I'm not getting that kind of vibe from anyone who has posted here.

 

I'm not signing my ds up for gun safety courses any time soon, but to equate every parent who does do that with someone like Nancy Lanza is quite a stretch, and I also think it's quite insulting to them. She and her son most certainly did not exemplify the typical gun owner.

[Spy Car]

You have not been exposed to the sort of gun classes and gun ranges that exist on military posts and within the military community. I have experienced both. They are not the same. The military community places a FAR greater emphasis on safety.

 

 

 

What you are admitting is that outside the military community that the culture at gun safety classes and gun ranges is "not the same."

 

I know what that means. And you know what that means.

 

 

 

Equating every person who owns a gun or whose child has taken a gun safety class with Nancy Lanza is a terrible argument. Thousands and thousands of kids have been through gun safety classes without shooting up elementary schools. It is not an argument that will get anywhere with most thinking people.

 

And of course that's what I did :rolleyes:

 

I think it is a far different situation to teach a well-behaved, obedient, respectful, responsible, and truthful child gun-saftey (and hopefully outside of the culture that is prevalent at many gun ranges) than rewarding (under the guise of "punishment") a child who has been been exhibiting bad behavior and is described as "gun obsessed."

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I don't think anyone would suggest that Nancy Lanza didn't make a lot of bad decisions. It also sounds like she had some major issues and was thoroughly obsessed with guns -- and I'm not getting that kind of vibe from anyone who has posted here.

 

I'm not signing my ds up for gun safety courses any time soon, but to equate every parent who does do that with someone like Nancy Lanza is quite a stretch, and I also think it's quite insulting to them. She and her son most certainly did not exemplify the typical gun owner.

 

The OP described her son as "obsessed" with guns. I would take that as a troubling sign (in conjunction with the other described problems). 

 

You repeat Mrs Mungo's invention, but I didn't equate equate every parent who has their kids take gun safety classes with Nancy Lanza. 

 

But to take a child who is having problems (including the recent incident), and is "obsessed," and then rewarding/punishing them by sending them to gun classes (where who knows what sort of influences they will be expose to) is not sound thinking in my book.

 

Bill

[Catwoman]

The OP described her son as "obsessed" with guns. I would take that as a troubling sign (in conjunction with the other described problems).

 

You repeat Mrs Mungo's invention, but I didn't equate equate every parent who has their kids take gun safety classes with Nancy Lanza.

 

But to take a child who is having problems (including the recent incident), and is "obsessed," and then rewarding/punishing them by sending them to gun classes (where who knows what sort of influences they will be expose to) is not sound thinking in my book.

 

Bill

I guess I'm just not sure the OP's son is "obsessed" with guns in the way that you're picturing. (If he is, I wholeheartedly agree with you!) She seemed pretty upset when she posted that information, so I suppose I just assumed that it was her emotions talking.

 

Additionally, the OP doesn't even have any guns in her home, which is a far cry from Nancy Lanza, who seemingly had an endless supply of them all over the house.

[Spy Car]

I guess I'm just not sure the OP's son is "obsessed" with guns in the way that you're picturing. (If he is, I wholeheartedly agree with you!) She seemed pretty upset when she posted that information, so I suppose I just assumed that it was her emotions talking.

 

Additionally, the OP doesn't even have any guns in her home, which is a far cry from Nancy Lanza, who seemingly had an endless supply of them all over the house.

 

I'm not picturing that he's "obsessed" like Adam Lanza (or his mother) may have been. But I would not put a gun in the hands of a kid who was being mouthy, disrespectful, disobedient, or less than honest. It is the last thing I'd do. And it sure ain't "punishment." 

 

That's just me.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

What you are admitting is that outside the military community that the culture at gun safety classes and gun ranges is "not the same."

 

I know what that means. And you know what that means.

But again, it depends upon the community. Are there gun-nutty pockets of people teaching classes at gun ranges? Sure. Are there law enforcement officers who teach classes at gun ranges and take them as seriously as the military community? Yes, of course. *I* expect that parents will make judgments according to *their own* community. I don't feel a need to make blanket judgments against entire groups of people.

 

And of course that's what I did :rolleyes:

Yes, it is what you did. Why else are you repeatedly invoking Nancy Lanza, if not with the intent of discrediting gun owners and/or parents who allow their kids to take gun safety and/or shooting classes?

 

I think it is a far different situation to teach a well-behaved, obedient, respectful, responsible, and truthful child gun-saftey (and hopefully outside of the culture that is prevalent at many gun ranges) than rewarding (under the guise of "punishment") a child who has been been exhibiting bad behavior and is described as "gun obsessed."

Again, FAR more children are involved in accidental/negligent shootings than in school shooting sprees. These children *already* found a gun in the woods and tried to shoot it. That is extremely reckless behavior. I can't imagine children who are even a little bit familiar with gun safety doing something like that.

[unsinkable]

...aside...I'm pretty sure all our air soft guns have an orange thingy on the muzzle (except for the ones that broke off, but then those dont leave the house)

 

Aren't all BB guns like that?

[*Lulu*]

...aside...I'm pretty sure all our air soft guns have an orange thingy on the muzzle (except for the ones that broke off, but then those dont leave the house)

 

Aren't all BB guns like that?

I thought they were supposed to be.

[Mrs Mungo]

...aside...I'm pretty sure all our air soft guns have an orange thingy on the muzzle (except for the ones that broke off, but then those dont leave the house)

 

Aren't all BB guns like that?

Newer ones, yes. Older ones, no.

[Spy Car]

But again, it depends upon the community. Are there gun-nutty pockets of people teaching classes at gun ranges? Sure. Are there law enforcement officers who teach classes at gun ranges and take them as seriously as the military community? Yes, of course. *I* expect that parents will make judgments according to *their own* community. I don't feel a need to make blanket judgments against entire groups of people.

 

 

 

So you admit that there are "gun-nutty" people teaching classes. And awful lot of them, truth told. So people would do well to know what they are potentially getting into in advance.

 

 

 

Yes, it is what you did. Why else are you repeatedly invoking Nancy Lanza, if not with the intent of discrediting gun owners and/or parents who allow their kids to take gun safety and/or shooting classes?

 

I evoke Nancy Lanza because she had a trouble child who she thought (in an example of bad thinking) she'd get involved with guns. A gun range is not the arena to solve problems. A child that is well behaved, etc. is a different case than one who is being defiant (even if the defiance is less profound than that of Adam Lanza. 

 

I don't know why this isn't crystal clear?

 

 

 

Again, FAR more children are involved in accidental/negligent shootings than in school shooting sprees.

 

So? Teaching children to be safe around guns and taking them to gun ranges are two different things. The first can be well accomplished without the other.

 

 

 

These children *already* found a gun in the woods and tried to shoot it. That is extremely reckless behavior. I can't imagine children who are even a little bit familiar with gun safety doing something like that.

 

"Extremely reckless behavior?" I think most adults who'd found a BB gun would attempt to discharge a shot in a safe manner (because they would assume, for safety's sake, it was cocked) and would not want to walk around with (or leave) a loaded BB gun around.

 

Not "extremely reckless behavior." It is what most people would do in the situation.

 

Bill