A Post: In Which I Reconsider My Original Premise and Make an About-Face

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think it would be nice if homeschooling advocates would not inflate how bad public schools are...

 

Of course you think you're doing a good job if you're comparing yourself to a straw man.

 

Emily

 

Could you be more specific?

[bethben]

I live in what is considered a moderate to high regulation state. Even if the government decided to change things up and require school districts to spend more money to regulate homeschoolers, it wouldn't happen. There isn't the money to do it. We keep records "just in case", but also realize the school administration all over is stretched thin just trying to keep the public school going much less trying to find out what one family is doing or not doing. I remember a few years ago asking on this forum about a friend who was working almost full time to help her husband's business who admitted she "never got around to doing school today". It became a little bit of a debate on how can we judge another homeschooler's plan of action, who are we to say what xyz child should be doing each year, and how to encourage another mom without actually saying, "you need to focus more on your children's education!!" So, a whole year went by of "not getting around to doing school". She did finally get her act together, but her oldest children suffered and are one year behind in all the basics. She lost a year which in the grand scheme of things is not much, but with the radical non-schoolers, there are years of "not getting around to it".

 

I guess it all boils down to parent involvement. Even in public schools, parents who are not involved in their children's education have children who often do not perform as well. I hear what everyone is saying though. I work hard at schooling my children and do it consistently (almost to a bad pendulum swing to never missing a day for anything). It annoys me to no end that I/we who work hard at this can get lumped together with those who make no effort at all.

 

Beth

[PachiSusan]

I think it would be nice if homeschooling advocates would not inflate how bad public schools are...

 

Of course you think you're doing a good job if you're comparing yourself to a straw man.

 

Emily

 

I'm with Tibbie. Elaborate please.

 

People can be against and not value public education and still do a good job at home educating. I'm not sure where you are going here.

 

Good home education is not based on demonizing public schools, but in the doing of the education.

 

On a general note:

 

I refuse to be defined by the fringe, and I refuse to feel the need to regulate the industry more because some people are unwilling to regulate and discipline themselves to do what's expected in order to effectively educate their kids.

[SarahW]

I just don't see the "We went to the zoo today, that's enough" lasting into the 2nd decade much around here. The parents who have kids in their teens who are substantially behind tend to be those who pulled their kids out in middle school ages, when their child was already behind and struggling-and they're trying to frantically play catch-up. The economy is lousy-there aren't jobs that high school drop-outs (or someone with equivalent skills) can get that pay enough to live on. And the parents realize that.

 

I want to think you're right, but when I hear some the "leaders" of homeschooling focus mostly on what kids aren't learning (evolution/"humanism"/etc.) there doesn't seem to be much of a focus on the necessity of academics. When academics does come up it is usually in the form of wanking on some dodgy studies proving that homeschoolers are better than public schoolers on some test or another.

 

In this environment I think parents can get lulled into a false sense of security. If they don't have a clear idea about what it takes to get into a 4-year University (because they never attended one themselves, or coasted through it, or whatever) they may just think that whatever they're doing is good, after all, they read the test stats!

 

What prevents a mom, when she reaches the chapter on gerunds in a LA curriculum and she doesn't understand it, from saying "Let's just skip this one." And skip the next one she doesn't understand, and so on until the next grade level isn't even purchased? Maybe eventually she'll realize that this isn't the right approach, but it's more likely that it's the kid who realizes their gaps, but at that point they are expected to be "independent learners" and are already scrambling to find a way into college. Maybe they'll be bright enough to fudge through their gaps and end up with a bachelors in an okay college - and then their lackluster education gets touted as a success story. (This example is only slightly hypothetical).

 

It would be nice if someone nearby would nip such a problem in the bud with a wise but kind word. But how often can that happen? Even on this forum people are incredibly hesitant to inquire about below-level work or speak against curriculum that is far too light. And problems like these tend to only become publicly obvious after they have already gone on too long.

[*Michelle*]

What prevents a mom, when she reaches the chapter on gerunds in a LA curriculum and she doesn't understand it, from saying "Let's just skip this one." And skip the next one she doesn't understand, and so on until the next grade level isn't even purchased?

 

I understand (and agree with) your point, but I don't think this is specific to homeschooling. I went to a top academic high school, top in the nation. I never learned what a gerund was. I never made it past WW2 in history. Ever. Not in American History or World History or AP American History or AP European History. My geometry teacher was a geometry teacher for one year before she magically became a PE teacher. We all muddled through as best we could and crossed our fingers for our finals.

 

If regulation was the answer, our public schools would be consistently superb because goodness knows they are highly, highly regulated.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

I want to think you're right, but when I hear some the "leaders" of homeschooling focus mostly on what kids aren't learning (evolution/"humanism"/etc.) there doesn't seem to be much of a focus on the necessity of academics. When academics does come up it is usually in the form of wanking on some dodgy studies proving that homeschoolers are better than public schoolers on some test or another.

 

In this environment I think parents can get lulled into a false sense of security. If they don't have a clear idea about what it takes to get into a 4-year University (because they never attended one themselves, or coasted through it, or whatever) they may just think that whatever they're doing is good, after all, they read the test stats!

 

What prevents a mom, when she reaches the chapter on gerunds in a LA curriculum and she doesn't understand it, from saying "Let's just skip this one." And skip the next one she doesn't understand, and so on until the next grade level isn't even purchased? Maybe eventually she'll realize that this isn't the right approach, but it's more likely that it's the kid who realizes their gaps, but at that point they are expected to be "independent learners" and are already scrambling to find a way into college. Maybe they'll be bright enough to fudge through their gaps and end up with a bachelors in an okay college - and then their lackluster education gets touted as a success story. (This example is only slightly hypothetical).

 

It would be nice if someone nearby would nip such a problem in the bud with a wise but kind word. But how often can that happen? Even on this forum people are incredibly hesitant to inquire about below-level work or speak against curriculum that is far too light. And problems like these tend to only become publicly obvious after they have already gone on too long.

 

What does the bolded word mean in your culture? I know what it means around here but I don't want to misunderstand you.

[SarahW]

 

I understand (and agree with) your point, but I don't think this is specific to homeschooling. I went to a top academic high school, top in the nation. I never learned what a gerund was. I never made it past WW2 in history. Ever. Not in American History or World History or AP American History or AP European History. My geometry teacher was a geometry teacher for one year before she magically became a PE teacher. We all muddled through as best we could and crossed our fingers for our finals.

 

If regulation was the answer, our public schools would be consistently superb because goodness knows they are highly, highly regulated.

 

I would hope that if ONE person planned out your education, they would not have been so silly as to plan those gaps in your education.

 

What does the bolded word mean in your culture? I know what it means around here but I don't want to misunderstand you.

 

I don't know if it has a special meaning around here. I don't think it has a special meaning like tea time. My personal vocabulary is colorful. This has been pointed out to me before in other threads.

[LizzyBee]

I haven't read all the replies, so I'm just responding to the original post.

 

I live in an area where homeschooling is very common, so I know LOTS of homeschool families. Most are not unschoolers, but I have been acquainted with a few unschooling families. No textbooks, no structure, no grade levels.

 

The worst of the uneducated and dysfunctional young adults I know are public schoolers. Some of these young adults went to well regarded public schools. I don't think additional regulation and government oversight of homeschool families will solve the problem of the minority of "homeschoolers" who are not being educated. The government already oversees the education of most of our youth, and they're not doing a great job.

 

OTOH, I was appalled by one of the unschooling families I knew (only one, because it seemed to be more of a non-schooling than unschooling family). I really thought those kids were at a disadvantage. Imagine my surprise when I learned that one of them had entered public school and was doing great academically. He was behind when he entered school, but he caught up pretty quickly.

 

Purely anecdotal, I know.

[Arcadia]

Even on this forum people are incredibly hesitant to inquire about below-level work or speak against curriculum that is far too light. And problems like these tend to only become publicly obvious after they have already gone on too long.

 

 

On the surface, no one can tell what disabilities (if any) another family's child has. After all we in general don't put our kids special needs in the signature. When I volunteered with mentally disabled children, those with brain damage can look like any other child but need more help than the children born with down syndrome.

[Farrar]

Could you be more specific?

 

 

Not Emily, but several people on this thread said something along the lines of, "They can regulate homeschoolers when government schools turn out better students." To me, that's illogical. It's like saying you shouldn't bother to fix one issue if there's another one.

 

This is not to say that I'm for more regulation. Quite the opposite. I just don't think the quality of public schools has much to do with it. Some public schools do a great job, some do a terrible job, many fall in between. I don't think the homeschoolers in areas where the public schools are stellar should have different regulation than the ones in the places where the schools are terrible.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't know if it has a special meaning around here. I don't think it has a special meaning like tea time. My personal vocabulary is colorful. This has been pointed out to me before in other threads.

 

 

I put the usual definition here but after a moment's reflection I decided to delete it. :/ Feel free to Google if you're curious. Might be good to know.

[Walking-Iris]

Wow. Just wow. I happen to know quite a few unschoolers, many of them "radical" unschoolers. They helped me make my decision to homeschool when I was pregnant with my oldest. The children in those families are smart, creative, and growing up just fine. I am not an unschooler, however I would never put down others for their choices. Unschoolers especially have a vague way of describing what they do, yet in all likelihood they are doing quite a bit during their days. They prefer to talk about life over curriculum. Many of the unschoolers I know have used many of the curriculum many on these forums use. I learned about Ambleside and SOTW from an unschooling friend. Their methods of using it is what's different. Their perspective on life is what's different.

 

Honestly I don't think someone can just look at another family from the outside like that and pass such sweeping judgements. There's no way IMHO that you could just have some brief experiences with a child and declare them illiterate for life. Or unable to "read BOB books." Or unable to add and so on.

 

The tone of some these posts are just plain rude.

 

Every week I come here and read posts from people who are worried about their kids spelling, writing, grammar, math and so on. Not one of you who are condemning other parents for their homeschooling methods can universally say your children are brilliant little geniuses who are getting admitted to Harvard at 16. Plenty of you have kids who can't spell, write, read, or do math like some other homeschooled child.

 

To assume that some government regulation is necessary because one feels so worried about all those homeschooled kids who aren't like your homeschooled kid being neglected is the biggest BS I think I've ever read. Not to mention the hubris of such a statement.

 

Oh, and also to assume that someone who is against regulations means they have something to hide and they are likely one of those neglectful unschooling parents is also the biggest BS I've ever read. Please.

 

I personally IRL know homeschoolers who have a child with reading problems, or spelling problems, or writing problems. I know children who are in public school with these same issues. I have a dear friend who is paying for an expensive private Montessori elementary school and he's frustrated at the level of his ds's reading and spelling. My own child is all over the place with his math skills and pretty much has decided that no amount of history has to be retained....ever!

 

And yet all of these children I know, being educated in very different ways, are insanely intelligent and competent in many many other areas of life.

 

I agree with a pp that one has to give a parent the benefit of the doubt. Unless you can somehow prove real neglect or abuse, I'm talking mental, physical, sexual, health related abuse and neglect, it's just tacky imo to get on a high horse and write yourself up as better than.

 

And then call in the government calvary to save everyone. Not you though. No. The government will pat you on the back.

 

Throwing stones in glass houses.

 

 

:rant:

[radiobrain]

Not that any of you care what I think, but here is why more regulation fails....

 

How can you regulate something that is inherently, non-regulateable? Each family has the right to HS how they choose, as long as they follow their state's laws. Each family chooses their style, curriculum, course of study, etc. You can't teach EVERYTHING for cripe's sake, you have to make decisions... I choose to leave out some stuff, and emphasize others I think are important. If I have a very science heavy house, we will focus on science..... if we are an arty house, then that will be a focus.... regulation will only make create more of a mess, IMHO. We are a minority in this country. I think they focus should be on other things that are more important than a handful of people who don't do as good a job as you think you are doing. You don't live in their house, you don't know what their kids do or don't know or do. I think unschooling is very hard to do well. That's why I don't do it. I have a different philosophy about education... but that is neither here or there. I don't judge other people's styles or reasons for homeschooling as I know that that gives someone else the right to judge my choices. I bet there are HSers who think the way I choose to do things is wrong. I bite my tongue when I have to defend people I think are doing a crappy job, but I do it, as it is what I would expect from someone else.

 

Ugh, I have to stop babbling... I am finishing off this cocktail and doubt I will ever make a coherent point.

[8filltheheart]

Not Emily, but several people on this thread said something along the lines of, "They can regulate homeschoolers when government schools turn out better students." To me, that's illogical. It's like saying you shouldn't bother to fix one issue if there's another one.

 

This is not to say that I'm for more regulation. Quite the opposite. I just don't think the quality of public schools has much to do with it. Some public schools do a great job, some do a terrible job, many fall in between. I don't think the homeschoolers in areas where the public schools are stellar should have different regulation than the ones in the places where the schools are terrible.

 

 

I want to be clear that my posts are not stating that "They can regulate homeschoolers when government schools turn out better students." My point is specifically that regulations do NOT automatically produce better students. That is a distinct difference.

 

Public schools are tightly regulated and produce students that are across the spectrum in outcomes. Regulations do not equate to producing high performing students or that would be the outcome of gov't regulated schools. Statistically, higher and higher numbers of students are graduating from public schools under-prepared for higher education. (statistical fact) So, suggesting that homeschoolers are not preparing their kids for their futures due to lack of gov't regulation begs the question of how are highly regulated gov't institutions preventing that poor outcome? The answer is that they aren't.

 

Now that homeschooling is becoming more mainstream, it isn't that surprising that the educational outcomes will begin to reflect a more statical bell curve and you will have very poor outcomes and very high outcomes with most somewhere in the middle.

[Momof3littles]

Ah, don't know what happened. deleted triplicate post!

[SarahW]

 

This exactly. Unless you get to know someone and see what is really going on, not just you saw them once or twice, how on earth can one know what is going on.

 

 

But isn't that the point of the system that has a certified teacher look over the year's work and see what, exactly, is going on, and knowing whether there are any LD's?

 

Pp have either said that this system is good or bad. But if that's the best way then maybe we should think of ways to make it work better?

 

I'm certainly not interested in inspecting other people's LA workbooks and dig into other kids learning problems. But that was what was suggested, that we should self-regulate. That's great, but every time someone tries they get mobbed with "You don't really know!!!!" Okay, then, self-regulation is clearly out. If a homeschooler who previously always used a boxed curriculum has a baby, and then suddenly announces that she is switching to unschooling, everyone who is suspicious of the motivations are a bunch of judgmental losers. Right.

[Momof3littles]

double post deleted

[Momof3littles]

Well, in my state we choose an evaluator to look over our ports, and there are evaluators out there that are comfortable with a wide range of philosophies Some expect to see certain things above and beyond what the law requires. Others are very comfortable working with radical unschoolers. Truly, there's a large spectrum of what they expect to see and what their comfort level is with various philosophies. Families can find evaluators who are comfortable with their style no matter what it is, IME.

 

So in my state, we all jump through the port and evaluator hoop, and then get a letter from our evaluator that then goes to the district so *they* can look over our samples as well. We test in certain grade levels but just have to show "progress in the overall program." Therefore test scores in and of themselves can't be used against a homeschooler (and I agree that should be the case, since there are SNs, etc. to factor in among other things).

 

All of that for what, really? We have many hurdles in my state and I don't think it does much except weed out the people who won't take the initiative to do the affidavit, etc. in the first place. It just means I have a lot of little boxes to check off. I don't think it causes most people to change their underlying philosophy, iykwim. It doesn't make someone decide to be more rigorous or structured.

[chiguirre]

I think it would be nice if homeschooling advocates would not inflate how bad public schools are...

 

Of course you think you're doing a good job if you're comparing yourself to a straw man.

 

Emily

 

A lot of us pulled our children out of that "straw man" because of how bad it was. I know my local public schools' offerings well because Geezle was once enrolled. I don't think I'm unique among hsers. Lots of posters here have had their children enrolled in public school and know their local options well. We're not attacking some hypothetical, we're commenting on the school little Johnny or Suzie went to. If you live in an area with great public schools and you are content with them, you're lucky and you should be grateful. However, you shouldn't criticize hsers for comparing themselves to their crappy local schools and finding their teaching superior.

[8filltheheart]

How do you remain friendly to other homeschoolers, regardless of their particular "bent" or style, while at the same time remain focused on your educational objectives?

For the most part, I do not discuss the specifics of homeschooling with my homeschooling friends. As pathetic as that sounds, it is true. If someone asks my opinion or a specific question, I will answer/help. But, other than that, I consider homeschooling proper pretty much a taboo subject. My sister homeschools and I can tell you that pigs will fly before we would ever have a conversation about homeschooling where we would agree. ;)

[EmilyGF]

Could you be more specific?

 

I received Practical Homeschooling the first year I was homeschooling, and in it, Mary Pride made comments like (of course I've gotten rid of the magazines since then) about any day at home is better than a day at school. Huh?

 

Or statistics about how the average homeschooler does better than the average public schooler. How about comparing to the average public schooler whose parent is involved, which corresponds more correctly to a homeschooler? (Of course, there are homeschool parents who would not be involved at PS.)

 

I was so incensed that year with PH that I haven't had another subscription.

 

Emily

[EmilyGF]

A lot of us pulled our children out of that "straw man" because of how bad it was. I know my local public schools' offerings well because Geezle was once enrolled. I don't think I'm unique among hsers. Lots of posters here have had their children enrolled in public school and know their local options well. We're not attacking some hypothetical, we're commenting on the school little Johnny or Suzie went to. If you live in an area with great public schools and you are content with them, you're lucky and you should be grateful. However, you shouldn't criticize hsers for comparing themselves to their crappy local schools and finding their teaching superior.

 

 

I agree - there are a lot of lousy local schools. My local school would have my 1st grader in a class of 42 (!!!). What???

 

BUT - when she tries to get into Princeton or MIT, she'll be competing against the kids who went to the local private school and the city magnet schools, and I need to compare myself to them, not to my neighbors who are uninvolved in their schools.

 

Emily

[NASDAQ]

Wow. Just wow. I happen to know quite a few unschoolers, many of them "radical" unschoolers. They helped me make my decision to homeschool when I was pregnant with my oldest. The children in those families are smart, creative, and growing up just fine. I am not an unschooler, however I would never put down others for their choices. Unschoolers especially have a vague way of describing what they do, yet in all likelihood they are doing quite a bit during their days. They prefer to talk about life over curriculum. Many of the unschoolers I know have used many of the curriculum many on these forums use. I learned about Ambleside and SOTW from an unschooling friend. Their methods of using it is what's different. Their perspective on life is what's different.

 

Honestly I don't think someone can just look at another family from the outside like that and pass such sweeping judgements. There's no way IMHO that you could just have some brief experiences with a child and declare them illiterate for life. Or unable to "read BOB books." Or unable to add and so on.

 

The tone of some these posts are just plain rude.

 

Every week I come here and read posts from people who are worried about their kids spelling, writing, grammar, math and so on. Not one of you who are condemning other parents for their homeschooling methods can universally say your children are brilliant little geniuses who are getting admitted to Harvard at 16. Plenty of you have kids who can't spell, write, read, or do math like some other homeschooled child.

 

Lots of people have children who struggle; however, most people here share a notion that a child who can't read by a certain age is a _problem._ Because we don't, as a whole, believe that the reading and math that one needs to be successful will arise naturally from everyday life.

 

Radical unschoolers do believe this. I think that they are wrong. I think that they are doing their children a disservice. Likewise, I think that people who let all sorts of things slip because they're busy with non-academic priorities, do their children a disservice. I _don't_ believe in more government regulation, but do I think that all home schooling approaches are successful and good? No, I don't.

 

I don't run up to people who unschool and scream at them, but that's not what the OP is doing here. She's talking about it in the abstract, not judging any particular family.

[PachiSusan]

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't Radical Unschooling more than just a parenting attitude? From all the talking to people here and other places that I've done, unschooling parents don't USE curriculum or text books. They use life as the teaching mechanism and use living books if they use anything at all. Am I wrong or missing something here? The families she describes would not fit into unschooling to me, but again, perhaps I'm wrong, hence the question.

 

Walking Iris said this and this is what prompted my question

They prefer to talk about life over curriculum. Many of the unschoolers I know have used many of the curriculum many on these forums use. I learned about Ambleside and SOTW from an unschooling friend. Their methods of using it is what's different. Their perspective on life is what's different.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

I agree - there are a lot of lousy local schools. My local school would have my 1st grader in a class of 42 (!!!). What???

 

BUT - when she tries to get into Princeton or MIT, she'll be competing against the kids who went to the local private school and the city magnet schools, and I need to compare myself to them, not to my neighbors who are uninvolved in their schools.

 

Emily

 

So who is suggesting that we should not compare ourselves to highly motivated successful outcomes? I think if we have those sort of objectives, not only do we have to, we often have to do more (more hoops to jump through.)

 

However, not all homeschoolers have the objective of college, let alone Princeton or MIT. More regulation would not equate to be competitive for MIT admissions or even different objectives.

 

While I agree completely that it is delusion to suggest "anything at home is better than a day at a ps," I can state that it is a truth in our homeschool. That is really the homeschool that matters. For each of us. We are not a unified body with unified objectives. What really matters is our individual ones and how do present homeschooling objectives to the general public. (I do believe the latter matters.) I do have high academic goals for my kids and I am pretty sure that my rising sr is close to being competitive for MIT admissions. But, I also know that very few students, homeschooled or otherwise, are capable of achieving his level of academics. It is an apple to roast beef comparion--you can't even keep it in the same food group. ;) I also have an adult that will probably never move out of our home. He will be dependent most likely his entire life. However, he is educated to the best of his abilities. Educational needs are not a "one size fits all." I personally believe that is one of the reasons our educational system is failing. Equal outcomes will never be a reality b/c none of us are inherently equal in ability.

[justamouse]

I received Practical Homeschooling the first year I was homeschooling, and in it, Mary Pride made comments like (of course I've gotten rid of the magazines since then) about any day at home is better than a day at school. Huh?

 

Or statistics about how the average homeschooler does better than the average public schooler. How about comparing to the average public schooler whose parent is involved, which corresponds more correctly to a homeschooler? (Of course, there are homeschool parents who would not be involved at PS.)

 

I was so incensed that year with PH that I haven't had another subscription.

 

Emily

 

I've never read Mary Pride, and I have heard that said and in my house, it's the truth. How do I know this? I had a kid go back to school in 10th, and though she was an honor roll student, what she did to be on that honor roll was far less than what I would have required from her.

 

Can I vouch for everyone? No. The average homeschooler DOES do better than the average PSer-it's statistically proven. They are averages. In that average of tested homeschooers are the parents who spent every day at the table and parents who handed the kid a book--they don't fill out a questionnaire before they take the SAT. That's why it's an average.

 

Will I make a judgement when I see a 10 yo who cannot read at ALL, and whose mother thinks that this is ok? Yes, yes I will. Do I think there should be regulation to oversee that parent? No. Why? Because schools are not putting out children who can read right now, so by whose stick are we measuring?

[Farrar]

Wow. Just wow.

(snip)

 

Yeah. I basically agree with all that rant. There are some bad eggs in any philosophy, but that comes from being a bad egg more than the philosophy. I think a lot of people here have a real misunderstanding of unschooling. It reminds me of an infuriating exercise that I participated in during a teacher development day my first full year teaching. The facilitators made us all answer what was basically a little educational philosophy quiz and divide up into groups. More than two thirds of the room went into groups where the philosophy was opposed to using standardized testing as the primary means of assessment. And then the facilitator said, "See! We're all coming from different perspectives to help the kids pass those tests!" I don't think I've ever witnessed anyone miss the point so amazingly in my life. It made me tired then and it makes me tired here too.

[EmilyGF]

 

However, not all homeschoolers have the objective of college, let alone Princeton or MIT. More regulation would not equate to be competitive for MIT admissions or even different objectives.

 

 

Sorry, Eight, I overstated my point and, in doing so, missed it completely.

 

I've met very confident homeschoolers who compare themselves to failing schools they have read about in the news (these are generally homeschoolers who have spent one or less year in school). They have no idea what is really being accomplished by schooled students who have parents that care.

 

I lived in CA for a while and was part of an umbrella school - which is also where I met the unschoolers who turned me off of it. So, while they were regulated, they still weren't doing anything.

 

I am sort of scared by homeschool proponents who use stories of school failure (Mary Pride seems to be the one I think of the most) as if all schools were like that. I think homeschoolers should try to self regulate, whatever that means(!!!), because if we don't, we'll eventually be government regulated. So, for me, I keep records and do standardized testing, so I could prove I school my students if anyone came by.

 

Emily

[justamouse]

 

Yeah. I basically agree with all that rant. There are some bad eggs in any philosophy, but that comes from being a bad egg more than the philosophy. I think a lot of people here have a real misunderstanding of unschooling. It reminds me of an infuriating exercise that I participated in during a teacher development day my first full year teaching. The facilitators made us all answer what was basically a little educational philosophy quiz and divide up into groups. More than two thirds of the room went into groups where the philosophy was opposed to using standardized testing as the primary means of assessment. And then the facilitator said, "See! We're all coming from different perspectives to help the kids pass those tests!" I don't think I've ever witnessed anyone miss the point so amazingly in my life. It made me tired then and it makes me tired here too.

 

I know what radical unschooling is, and I've seen it done so well that I reconsidered my own schooling philosophy. I've also seen it done so poorly I sincerely questioned calling the authorities.

 

I don't misunderstand what unschooling is. I have a hard time with mothers who are ignorant of their own poor education then decided that they are just going to 'unschool' because it sounds so natural and fun.

 

But I don't misunderstand what the ideal of unschooling is.

[Farrar]

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't Radical Unschooling more than just a parenting attitude? From all the talking to people here and other places that I've done, unschooling parents don't USE curriculum or text books. They use life as the teaching mechanism and use living books if they use anything at all. Am I wrong or missing something here? The families she describes would not fit into unschooling to me, but again, perhaps I'm wrong, hence the question.

 

Walking Iris said this and this is what prompted my question

 

There are lots of different kinds of unschoolers so if you asked one family they wouldn't tell you the same thing as another necessarily.

 

Radical unschooling is a philosophy that is meant to cover your whole life and parenting, not just schooling. So it covers the way you look at discipline, the way you think about screen time, the way you think about nutrition, etc. etc.

 

Many unschoolers use some curricula or text books. The unschool families I know have curricular resources around. They just tend to use them when the child expresses an interest in doing so as opposed to on some set schedule or for some external reason (like to do well on a test or because school kids are learning the information). There's an unschool family I sort of know who has a child who is extremely motivated and gifted with math. He has long done online courses for math and the family helps him keep to the schedule. If he came home one day and said, "I'm sick of math," they'd discuss it and probably drop it. But while he does it, they support him.

[Mergath]

 

So anyone who feels strongly against government regulation must be guilty of breaking the law? I totally agree that we need the government, that government employees are mostly good people (gee, I hope so as practically all my friends are employed by the government directly or indirectly) and some people are pretty paranoid, but that conclusion seems just as hysteria-driven to me.

 

 

 

I don't recall saying anyone was breaking the law. But whenever discussions of regulation come up, there are always some people who protest way too much.

[momto2Cs]

Better to have some small bit of regulation now than to wait until ten years down the road, when twenty or thirty percent of kids in this country are homeschooled, and have some study find out that half the hsed kids are illiterate and can't add single digits. What kind of regulations do you think would get passed in that situation? I can guarantee it'll be more than a basic math and reading test.

 

 

 

That might be a pretty accurate assessment of quite a number of public schools these days... you know, the ones the government does watch over?

 

I know what radical unschooling is, and I've seen it done so well that I reconsidered my own schooling philosophy. I've also seen it done so poorly I sincerely questioned calling the authorities.

 

 

I've also seen both. I have radical unschooly friends whose kids get into top notch colleges with great scholarships, and radical unschooly friends whose children need a lot of remedial work. So much of it depends on the intent and involvement of the parents... the ones whose children do well are involved, and make learning opportunities available--they support their children's interests, and it's not usually about playing Minecraft all day. The others, well, not so much.

 

I live in CA, and as such, I have homschooled both through a charter school and on our own. Not very much has changed between the two, with or without "oversight".

[Mergath]

Not that any of you care what I think, but here is why more regulation fails....

 

How can you regulate something that is inherently, non-regulateable? Each family has the right to HS how they choose, as long as they follow their state's laws. Each family chooses their style, curriculum, course of study, etc. You can't teach EVERYTHING for cripe's sake, you have to make decisions... I choose to leave out some stuff, and emphasize others I think are important. If I have a very science heavy house, we will focus on science..... if we are an arty house, then that will be a focus.... regulation will only make create more of a mess, IMHO. We are a minority in this country. I think they focus should be on other things that are more important than a handful of people who don't do as good a job as you think you are doing. You don't live in their house, you don't know what their kids do or don't know or do. I think unschooling is very hard to do well. That's why I don't do it. I have a different philosophy about education... but that is neither here or there. I don't judge other people's styles or reasons for homeschooling as I know that that gives someone else the right to judge my choices. I bet there are HSers who think the way I choose to do things is wrong. I bite my tongue when I have to defend people I think are doing a crappy job, but I do it, as it is what I would expect from someone else.

 

Ugh, I have to stop babbling... I am finishing off this cocktail and doubt I will ever make a coherent point.

 

 

How can it not be regulated? You pick a time frame- every year, every three years, whatever- and test the kids in reading and math. If they're more than, say, two grade levels behind, the parents go out and find a tutor. It really doesn't seem that difficult to me. I don't think anyone is suggesting we regulate every subject, but reading and math are the most important. If you can't read or do basic math, you're going to be screwed as an adult And if a hsed kid with no LDs is three or four years behind in reading or math, the parents obviously need some outside help with that subject. Not to mention that any parent with a philosophy which says reading and math shouldn't be taught just shouldn't be homeschooling.

 

Of course, some people think that kind of thing is just irrational, in which case it's probably better to agree to disagree, because I'm never going to find any common ground with them.

[Mergath]

That might be a pretty accurate assessment of quite a number of public schools these days... you know, the ones the government does watch over?

 

 

Which has exactly zip to do with homeschooling. Our kids don't magically learn just because the public schooled kids don't.

[Tracy]

My dh is a public high school teacher, and I have to tell you that I highly doubt that dh's "students of the State" are better educated than the kids you describe. Dh's honor students cannot compose an intelligible sentence, either written or oral. There is no way I am giving up my freedoms to that the same State can oversee the education of poor homeschoolers.

[momto2Cs]

Which has exactly zip to do with homeschooling. Our kids don't magically learn just because the public schooled kids don't.

 

 

Um, okay. I didn't mean anything about magically learning anything. I was simply stating that even in a government regulated setting (i.e. public school), there are far too many kids that come out without decent basic skills, despite testing. And yes, that does have to do with homeschooling because I chose to school my own kids at home in great part because of the failure of public schools. I wuld guess plenty of other people on this board have similar reasoning. I think until the government can manage their own educational framework in a way that actually provides a solid education for children that attend school, I wouldn't trust their assessment of what we do at home.

[Mergath]

Um, okay. I didn't mean anything about magically learning anything. I was simply stating that even in a government regulated setting (i.e. public school), there are far too many kids that come out without decent basic skills, despite testing. And yes, that does have to do with homeschooling because I chose to school my own kids at home in great part because of the failure of public schools. I wuld guess plenty of other people on this board have similar reasoning. I think until the government can manage their own educational framework in a way that actually provides a solid education for children that attend school, I wouldn't trust their assessment of what we do at home.

 

And as other people have said, in this very thread actually, the fact that the public schools suck doesn't absolve us of responsibility for our own kids. Just because the public schools can't meet a low standard doesn't mean we don't have to meet it either, and arguments like that do nothing for the hsing movement as a whole. The problems plaguing public schools are many and complex, and not all of them have to do with the actual schools. They also don't mean that it's impossible to give a child a simple reading assessment.

[Mergath]

My dh is a public high school teacher, and I have to tell you that I highly doubt that dh's "students of the State" are better educated than the kids you describe. Dh's honor students cannot compose an intelligible sentence, either written or oral. There is no way I am giving up my freedoms to that the same State can oversee the education of poor homeschoolers.

 

What freedoms do you think you'd be giving up with very minimal basic skills requirements? The only think you'd be giving up is the freedom to not teach your kid how to read and add, and if you're really set on not doing those things, you probably shouldn't be homeschooling anyway.

[momto2Cs]

And as other people have said, in this very thread actually, the fact that the public schools suck doesn't absolve us of responsibility for our own kids. Just because the public schools can't meet a low standard doesn't mean we don't have to meet it either, and arguments like that do nothing for the hsing movement as a whole. The problems plaguing public schools are many and complex, and not all of them have to do with the actual schools. They also don't mean that it's impossible to give a child a simple reading assessment.

 

I'm sorry you're misunderstanding me. Obvioulsy, I am not stating my point very clearly.

 

I agree that the fact that many schools perform terribly is not an excuse or a reason for homeschool parents to do the same. And I was not trying to use that poor performance as a way to absolve myself, or other homeschoolers, for the responsibility they carry in regards to their children. I am simply saying that I don't necessarily trust the government to accurately assess what my children know.

[Sahamamama]

I think when you're around other families, you have to school yourself to think the best of them.

 

FW, thanks for this post. Yes, I have been trying to "think the best of them," as you say. I think what did me in was going to their house -- :ack2: . I was okay until I saw the house. Now I'm trying hard to not let that impact how I relate, but it's so darn hard to do. It was just that incredibly disgusting. I was a social worker before having kids. I have been in some dumps in my day, and I can't imagine going back into that house. And, I can't imagine what kind of life those children have from day to day. Unschooling is the least of the un-ness. It was un-everything there.

 

Tell yourself that you're only seeing one small piece of their lives. You don't know everything, even if it feels like you do. Remind yourself that you may not know all the issues - there could be severe anxiety, depression, etc. that is leading a family to take a more relaxed stance to deal with other problems.

 

This really does seem to be true. But I don't believe in homeschooling in any circumstances, at any cost (to the kids). Yes, the parents may very well be depressed. Are they helping their children by keeping them home? Simply "keeping the kids home" isn't responsible parenting/educating, IMO, no matter how I try to empathize.

 

Tell yourself that there can be seasons for things. Many families are lax for awhile and then become more rigorous or vice versa. Remind yourself that many, if not most, kids can catch up on skills. Don't ever assume that the parents are lazy. Trust that they have their kids' best interests at heart. Don't judge by your standards and expectations. Let the parents have their own.

 

By her own admission, this mom hasn't used curriculum, doesn't intend to use "anything at all," and sees no value in systematically working through, say, a math course or writing course. Her expectation is that, all on their own, her children will learn "what they need and want to know." They are "hacking their lives." I don't think there is a plan to pick up the pace at any point. The oldest is currently high school age. She cries quite a bit, and begs to be allowed to go to school. Mom says, "No, I know what's best for you." I would cry, too, if I lived in that house.

 

I have to say, I know a number of unschooling families and while I have not had universally positive experiences or opinions of those families, I have not had this experience that so many people come here to complain about that somehow they're neglecting their children's education. I see a different type of work being done and a different set of premises about how great learning will come about. So I think a lot of this is about what lens you see people through.

 

I can't conceive of any meaningful regulation that would work and be flexible. I don't really trust a large state bureaucracy to carry one out. And, as has been said, I don't think being in a high regulation state does change anyone's behavior. I know homeschoolers in MD and homeschoolers here in DC and in VA. MD is higher regulation, DC and VA are lower. There's no difference in what people actually do.

 

I can't conceive of any, either, which is why I've always been against state regulation. I also don't trust a large state bureaucracy to carry out... well, much of anything these days, LOL. ;) And, like you said, I don't think the regs will make a difference in what people actually do.

 

Farrar -- What would you do if you truly felt some children were not getting an ethical opportunity for at least a basic education?

[justamouse]

What freedoms do you think you'd be giving up with very minimal basic skills requirements? The only think you'd be giving up is the freedom to not teach your kid how to read and add, and if you're really set on not doing those things, you probably shouldn't be homeschooling anyway.

 

 

How is that any different than saying, "Don't worry about the NSA collecting data on you, if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about."

 

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.-Ben Franklin.

[EKS]

I think the homeschooling community is as much to blame as any sort of lack of government involvement.

 

The two most pervasive and harmful myths of homeschooling are:

 

1. Homeschooling is always better than a b&m school.

 

2. You don't need to know anything about academics to homeschool your children.

 

I see these myths perpetuated here all the time, and I'm certain people here know that they simply aren't true.

[Mergath]

How is that any different than saying, "Don't worry about the NSA collecting data on you, if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about."

 

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.-Ben Franklin.

 

Somehow, I don't see my child having a reading assessment done every few years as "giving up essential liberty."

[NASDAQ]

And as other people have said, in this very thread actually, the fact that the public schools suck doesn't absolve us of responsibility for our own kids. Just because the public schools can't meet a low standard doesn't mean we don't have to meet it either, and arguments like that do nothing for the hsing movement as a whole. The problems plaguing public schools are many and complex, and not all of them have to do with the actual schools. They also don't mean that it's impossible to give a child a simple reading assessment.

 

You're consistently missing her point here.

 

Public schools are highly regulated. Public schools do not ensure that all children are educated. Ergo regulation alone cannot ensure that children are educated.

[justamouse]

I can't conceive of any, either, which is why I've always been against state regulation. I also don't trust a large state bureaucracy to carry out... well, much of anything these days, LOL. ;) And, like you said, I don't think the regs will make a difference in what people actually do.

 

Farrar -- What would you do if you truly felt some children were not getting an ethical opportunity for at least a basic education?

 

WOW. Wow, that's so bad.

[Mergath]

 

You're consistently missing her point here.

 

Public schools are highly regulated. Public schools do not ensure that all children are educated. Ergo regulation alone cannot ensure that children are educated.

 

I'm not in favor of regulation so much as assessment, and I don't care if the public schools are involved or not. There are plenty of private companies out there that can tell you your kid's reading level and whether your kid can add and subtract.

[justamouse]

Somehow, I don't see my child having a reading assessment done every few years as "giving up essential liberty."

 

It would be the parents giving up the freedom to parent their child in the way they see fit. The regulation would undermine the parental authority. The state does not have authority over the child, the parents do. We don't have children to be wards of the state.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

 

"

 

I think when you're around other families, you have to school yourself to think the best of them.

 

FW, thanks for this post. Yes, I have been trying to "think the best of them," as you say. I think what did me in was going to their house -- :ack2: . I was okay until I saw the house. Now I'm trying hard to not let that impact how I relate, but it's so darn hard to do. It was just that incredibly disgusting. I was a social worker before having kids. I have been in some dumps in my day, and I can't imagine going back into that house. And, I can't imagine what kind of life those children have from day to day. Unschooling is the least of the un-ness. It was un-everything there.

 

Tell yourself that you're only seeing one small piece of their lives. You don't know everything, even if it feels like you do. Remind yourself that you may not know all the issues - there could be severe anxiety, depression, etc. that is leading a family to take a more relaxed stance to deal with other problems.

 

This really does seem to be true. But I don't believe in homeschooling in any circumstances, at any cost (to the kids). Yes, the parents may very well be depressed. Are they helping their children by keeping them home? Simply "keeping the kids home" isn't responsible parenting/educating, IMO, no matter how I try to empathize.

 

Tell yourself that there can be seasons for things. Many families are lax for awhile and then become more rigorous or vice versa. Remind yourself that many, if not most, kids can catch up on skills. Don't ever assume that the parents are lazy. Trust that they have their kids' best interests at heart. Don't judge by your standards and expectations. Let the parents have their own.

 

By her own admission, this mom hasn't used curriculum, doesn't intend to use "anything at all," and sees no value in systematically working through, say, a math course or writing course. Her expectation is that, all on their own, her children will learn "what they need and want to know." They are "hacking their lives." I don't think there is a plan to pick up the pace at any point. The oldest is currently high school age. She cries quite a bit, and begs to be allowed to go to school. Mom says, "No, I know what's best for you." I would cry, too, if I lived in that house.

 

I have to say, I know a number of unschooling families and while I have not had universally positive experiences or opinions of those families, I have not had this experience that so many people come here to complain about that somehow they're neglecting their children's education. I see a different type of work being done and a different set of premises about how great learning will come about. So I think a lot of this is about what lens you see people through.

 

I can't conceive of any meaningful regulation that would work and be flexible. I don't really trust a large state bureaucracy to carry one out. And, as has been said, I don't think being in a high regulation state does change anyone's behavior. I know homeschoolers in MD and homeschoolers here in DC and in VA. MD is higher regulation, DC and VA are lower. There's no difference in what people actually do.

 

I can't conceive of any, either, which is why I've always been against state regulation. I also don't trust a large state bureaucracy to carry out... well, much of anything these days, LOL. ;) And, like you said, I don't think the regs will make a difference in what people actually do.

 

 

 

This is neglect! We already have laws on the books for neglect. You saw a home that you would have reported when you were a social worker. Why did you not report now? Why did you first think about their homeschooling instead of calling for help about the filth?

 

I'm not meaning to scold you, I'm just pointing out that neglect usually spans across a few aspects of a child's life. We have some procedures that can be followed if a family is completely snowed under like this and Mom is living in denial. We don't say it's OK for a child to live in squalor, no matter how he's educated.

[justamouse]

I'm not in favor of regulation so much as assessment, and I don't care if the public schools are involved or not. There are plenty of private companies out there that can tell you your kid's reading level and whether your kid can add and subtract.

 

Which is still a bureaucratic regulation imposed by the state.

[Sahamamama]

I know that moment, OP, when access to more data makes you suddenly start to question whether hs'ing is all that great. BTDT, and it stinks.

 

I can't see how regulation is the answer, when the families like this whom I knew in Ohio simply hired evaluators who were willing to lie.

 

Yeah, that's one way to put it! :lol: I think it also makes me a bit worried about how we will be perceived at this new church, since THIS is what the homeschoolers are like there. Okay, I read that back to myself and I sound shallow. :leaving: But it does explain some of the strange looks we got from the Little Old Ladies when we mentioned that we homeschool. "Oooo-oooh, I see, hmm... The schools here are very good, you know."

 

We work hard at what we do, and our house is clean! :svengo: At least, you wouldn't want to run out of it. Sigh. So at the end of the day, what do we have in common, except the label?

 

About "evaluators who were willing to lie" -- Wow.