A Post: In Which I Reconsider My Original Premise and Make an About-Face

[bethben]

Wow. Just wow. I happen to know quite a few unschoolers, many of them "radical" unschoolers. They helped me make my decision to homeschool when I was pregnant with my oldest. The children in those families are smart, creative, and growing up just fine. I am not an unschooler, however I would never put down others for their choices. Unschoolers especially have a vague way of describing what they do, yet in all likelihood they are doing quite a bit during their days. They prefer to talk about life over curriculum. Many of the unschoolers I know have used many of the curriculum many on these forums use. I learned about Ambleside and SOTW from an unschooling friend. Their methods of using it is what's different. Their perspective on life is what's different.

 

 

 

I think the "slackers" being referred to around here are considered non-schoolers vs. un-schoolers. The unschoolers (in my opinion) are the parents who work harder because they are following interests and have that creative bent that helps them tie in a bunch of subjects around an interest. For example, the family finds an interesting bug on a nature walk, goes home to research the bug, draws the bug with detail labeling the bug, writes a poem around a bug theme or some other academic pursuit that follows the interest. A non-schooler wouldn't even get up for the nature walk much less do anything academic with it. These are the just let the kids play video games all day with the hope that someday, they'll ask to be taught to read. And even at that point, they may never get around to actually teaching them.

 

 

Beth

[Hedgehogs4]

 

Anyone can take their children out of school, especially here in New Jersey. Just keeping them home is not homeschooling!

 

I actually think that this experience has made a convert out of me. I am ready and willing to submit to some form of "government inspection" for the sake of children in families without (IMO) ethical educational values. I'm finally seeing the need for some sort of outside accountability.

 

 

 

 

I think the key here is your parenthetical "IMO". What exactly are "ethical educational values." Yours? Playing devil's advocate here, because honestly my opinion about these folks is similar to yours, however, I do deeply believe that they should be free to not school their children if that is what they desire. They and their children will reap the consequences, or not. Who knows what these free thinkers will be? A snapshot of peoples' lives are not enough to conclude what the outcome of their futures will be. Take a deep breath...stay in your lane do what you know is right for your family, and PLEASE don't change your mind on this issue.

[Farrar]

Sahamamama, what did you end up doing?

 

I keep thinking about this and how, if I was in that situation where I saw a family that was really on the edge of neglect - even (or perhaps especially) well-intentioned neglect, that it would be so hard to figure out what to do.

 

I know I'll probably get terribly slammed for saying this because most people here will disagree, but I do sort of feel that sometimes, as homeschoolers, we have a greater responsibility to say something when something is off in a family because there's no institutional voice of authority like a school counselor or teacher to do it. Of course, sometimes people should just butt out and not try to impose their own values and expectations on others. It's tricky - at least, to me.

[albeto]

You always have such interesting input. I bet you win all your arguments. And I mean that in a complementary way. My husband says I win all our arguments but I can admit it isn't due to rational thinking and clear communication. :rolleyes: Persistence, maybe.

 

Thank you. I'll take this in a complementary way. :)

 

I don't win all my arguments at all. Not even close! I can be persistent, but that's because it takes a while for something to sink into my thick skull. I just think that one particular claim (unschool = child neglect) is unfounded and cannot be supported. I thought the analogy might make it easier to imagine.

 

' post='5050156']Sorry to post off topic, but that is kind of the way this thread is going.

 

ANYWAY, I live in a testing/evaluation state, and I'm fine with it. I would do testing even if it wasn't required.

 

 

I will admit, I appreciate very much not having to bundle papers together for some supervisor, but at the same time, I feel what my kids are learning is appropriate and valuable. Surely people who teach their children the earth is 6000 years old and there is a real possibility of being burned alive for eternity feel the same way. Just because I think that's inappropriate and detrimental doesn't make it so, which is why having an impartial, professionally trained supervisor makes sense. Then again, I'm really appreciative for not having one myself! Selfish, I know, and I think I would get used to it, not that it really matters what I think. I just wanted to chime in about unschooling being equated to negligence.

[Sahamamama]

Sahamamama, what did you end up doing?

 

I keep thinking about this and how, if I was in that situation where I saw a family that was really on the edge of neglect - even (or perhaps especially) well-intentioned neglect, that it would be so hard to figure out what to do.

 

I know I'll probably get terribly slammed for saying this because most people here will disagree, but I do sort of feel that sometimes, as homeschoolers, we have a greater responsibility to say something when something is off in a family because there's no institutional voice of authority like a school counselor or teacher to do it. Of course, sometimes people should just butt out and not try to impose their own values and expectations on others. It's tricky - at least, to me.

 

.

[*Michelle*]

Spam reported.

 

Sahamamama, does that mean that the oldest girl is unschooled now too? I understand and appreciate your decision with your friend, but I think it's pretty unfair to the oldest girl to remove her from her studies in order to accommodate her brother. It isn't all or nothing. Why not let both children pursue the education each enjoys?

[justamouse]

 

We (husband included) have decided to simply be friends with this family, not to "be an influence" or anything so noble as that! ;) No, I think friendship is a blessing in an of itself, and I don't want to toss away someone who could be a friend.

 

Thanks, Farrar.

 

 

:grouphug:

[Sahamamama]

Does that mean that the oldest girl is unschooled now too? I understand and appreciate your decision with your friend, but I think it's pretty unfair to the oldest girl to remove her from her studies in order to accommodate her brother. It isn't all or nothing. Why not let both children pursue the education each enjoys?

 

.

[ailysh]

 

Just because I think that's inappropriate and detrimental doesn't make it so, which is why having an impartial, professionally trained supervisor makes sense.

 

 

And therein lies the problem, I think, one that Wendy was sort of getting at. Can such a person really exist? Like you were saying, we all bring our own biases into the equation. Maybe even a test can't be impartial because it is designed by a person (persons/committee). Perhaps if the only skills being evaluated are remedial reading and math. All tests I've known have had an element of social studies, science, etc, the content of which I may or may not be actually teaching to my children that particular year. Particularly social studies. Of course, my oldest is 3 so we haven't quite got there yet. But that's why even "impartial" test scores aren't necessarily a good indicator of the learning that is going on. Is there even a standardized test that contains no "content" subjects but skills only? I don't know.

 

I'll admit that I wouldn't appreciate somebody telling me that I needed to include more "neighborhood and community" content in my curriculum when we were focusing on ancient history for example.

[Mrs Twain]

For most homeschoolers in my state, students are required either to achieve a certain stanine on a nationally normed standardized test (language arts and math sections only) or to submit a portfolio evaluation. I am very happy that we have this regulation. For those of us who try hard to provide a rigorous academic program for our kids, the test is considered easy. If there is a child with disabilities or who would otherwise have a good reason not to be able to take a test, the portfolio evaluation is fair. For the people who are inclined to go to the park every day instead of doing lessons, it is a motivator for them to actually do their work since they are afraid of the upcoming test. Of course it is possible to cheat, but I don't believe that many people do. These kinds of regulations are not burdensome and help to motivate certain families to a great extent. I believe that it saves some children from being neglected.

[unsinkable]

Changed my mind

[IsabelC]

Your friend is lucky to have you as a friend. I wish more people were as willing as you are to listen and learn before they judge.

 

 

FWIW, I agree heartily with whoever it was that said over-regulation makes life harder for the genuine people, while those who want to do the wrong thing will still find a way to do so.

 

 

WendyK, we had home visits and honestly it was nice, not stressful at all. We have a Home Education Advisory Council, and this committee includes people who have home educated, so when you get a visit, it's more like a mentor coming to make sure you are OK and check whether you need any additional support, rather than a pro-school person comparing what you're doing to the benchmark of school.

[justamouse]

Can you have Daughter read TWM, figure out where she's supposed to be and facilitate her own education? I mean, that's unschooling, technically.

[maryanne]

I have this "theory" I kick around in my head, that you can accomplish most (or all?) of the goals of classical eduction without excessive seatwork in the early years, for those children who find seatwork extremely difficult or nearly impossible. I do think that these children exist. What if we could accommodate Wiggly Willy by using more oral-aural methods to cover the same content? For example, let's say you have a wiggly, non-language-loving six year old boy who will NOT be happily making notebook pages or lapbooks or doing copywork of history sentences. So what? He can still learn something about history by listening to SOTW or Your Story Hour or Jim Weiss CDs while he plays with Legos. He can sing Math Fact songs. He can listen to read alouds of Bible, Literature, Science, and History. He can use picture books longer (I don't think most students use picture books long enough, anyway). He can memorize poems, unless there are language delays, but even then, I would try. [Edited to Add: This family may do all these things, for all I know.]

 

I definitely agree that this can be done. In fact it is pretty much what I did with my ds in K and 1st. In K pretty much everything was done orally except handwriting practice which I waited until he was 5.5 to start and then kept it short and gentle (we used HWT). Toward the end of the year we added in informal spelling using alphabet magnets. Math was done using manipulatives and completing worksheets orally. I also did lots of reading out loud for science, history and literature. First grade was more of the same adding in grammar done entirely orally, very short copy work, and Classical Conversations memory work. By 2nd grade I did work on building more fluency in handwriting so that some worksheets could be completed independently because I knew that the next year dd would be starting K and I would need time to teach her. Today ds is preparing to start Challenge B in the fall for 8th grade after a very successful 7th grade in Challenge A.

 

Now you have confirmation on your theory that it can work at least for some.

[maryanne]

I have this "theory" I kick around in my head, that you can accomplish most (or all?) of the goals of classical eduction without excessive seatwork in the early years, for those children who find seatwork extremely difficult or nearly impossible. I do think that these children exist. What if we could accommodate Wiggly Willy by using more oral-aural methods to cover the same content? For example, let's say you have a wiggly, non-language-loving six year old boy who will NOT be happily making notebook pages or lapbooks or doing copywork of history sentences. So what? He can still learn something about history by listening to SOTW or Your Story Hour or Jim Weiss CDs while he plays with Legos. He can sing Math Fact songs. He can listen to read alouds of Bible, Literature, Science, and History. He can use picture books longer (I don't think most students use picture books long enough, anyway). He can memorize poems, unless there are language delays, but even then, I would try. [Edited to Add: This family may do all these things, for all I know.]

 

I definitely agree that this can be done. In fact it is pretty much what I did with my ds in K and 1st. In K pretty much everything was done orally except handwriting practice which I waited until he was 5.5 to start and then kept it short and gentle (we used HWT). Toward the end of the year we added in informal spelling using alphabet magnets. Math was done using manipulatives and completing worksheets orally. I also did lots of reading out loud for science, history and literature. First grade was more of the same adding in grammar done entirely orally, very short copy work, and Classical Conversations memory work. By 2nd grade I did work on building more fluency in handwriting so that some worksheets could be completed independently because I knew that the next year dd would be starting K and I would need time to teach her. Today ds is preparing to start Challenge B in the fall for 8th grade after a very successful 7th grade in Challenge A.

 

Now you have confirmation on your theory that it can work at least for some.

[Arcadia]

I do believe that many young boys simply need more time to grow and add muscle mass -- stronger posture muscles in the back and torso make it physically easier to sit up, thus freeing up more brain power for learning. I've seen young boys put so much energy into getting comfortable on the seat, with those unpadded bottoms they have, LOL, and all they do is squirm, sit on their feet, and wiggle. I honestly think they put all their energy into the physical act of sitting, they have little left over to learn and think. Of course that's going to interfere with Latin!

 

Seatwork does not need to be done seated :) My younger would do his math sprawled on the carpet and his language arts walking around the living room. We have quite a few clip boards. He learn his german songs in Saturday German class pacing around the classroom (which his teacher does not mind and finds amusing). Comically they used to play on the piano standing because they did not want to sit on the piano bench.

Interestingly they have no problems sitting in their car-seats for long road trips even though younger tends to fall asleep :lol:

[Sahamamama]

Seatwork does not need to be done seated :) My younger would do his math sprawled on the carpet and his language arts walking around the living room. We have quite a few clip boards. He learn his german songs in Saturday German class pacing around the classroom (which his teacher does not mind and finds amusing). Comically they used to play on the piano standing because they did not want to sit on the piano bench.

Interestingly they have no problems sitting in their car-seats for long road trips even though younger tends to fall asleep :lol:

 

Exactly. I knew a boy who did almost all his "seatwork" while bouncing on an exercise ball. I'd say, "He's working on Core Knowledge, right?" LOL.

[I.Dup.]

Thank you, Farrar, for asking. It has been hard. I'm glad I could come here and (mostly) feel support about trying to figure out just what to do.

 

What did I end up doing? I decided to do my best to be a friend. When it's all said and done, I like this person as a person, no matter what differences we may have in how we think and how we do things. She is someone I want to spend time with, and my girls just adore her youngest daughter (all the same age, more or less). Also, I care about her as a sister in Christ, and I care about her family. Furthermore, I think her children are interesting, funny, intelligent, healthy, well-adjusted (from what I can see), and happy (except the oldest girl, who is very shy, but strikes me as a bit of a moody/manipulative/whiny teenager, anyway. That is to say, I think she'd complain if GOD was her parent, so of course her mother is doing it wrong ;) For all that, I still like the daughter, too, LOL.).

 

I made myself a cup of tea and read through my friend's blog. This helped me to understand some of her family's story. It turns out, my friend used to be a very devoted WTMer -- they did the 4-year history cycle, Latin, phonics, math, grammar, read alouds, "everything in the book." This worked well with her oldest, a book-loving girl, who thrived with all of it. But when my friend's son came up to school age, he cried at everything she tried, while she struggled to find patience with him. She says that his failure to learn in the way she expected churned up a great anger in her, and it began to destroy her relationship with her son. Something had to change.

 

My friend said that she now looks back and sees it was a form of idolatry -- to set up and pursue at any cost a dream of what the perfect homeschool had to be. According to her blog, she feels that unschooling freed her from worshiping the method of classical schooling, and saved her relationship with her son.

 

I think that understanding her heart as a mother helps me to respect her choices to a greater extent, even if I think I might have chosen differently. Perhaps I would seen the problem as a matter of timing, rather than method. Perhaps I would have waited a year or so with the oldest boy before starting in again, or perhaps I would have let him be unschooled for a time while continuing with the classical curriculum that made the daughter thrive. Perhaps I would have considered screening for learning disabilities and taken him to a specialist. I probably would have worked on my anger issues and the need to patiently work with a young, struggling student.

 

Who knows? Who knows what any other mother might have done? We are not the mother of these children -- my friend is, and as she faced a dilemma, she made a choice to let her dream go and reach out to her son. She choose unschooling so she could relate to him Mother-to-Son, and not as Teacher-to-Student. I admire that.

 

You know, I have that "fetish," too, maybe. Yeah. I have it, too. That holding on to what I think the Perfect Little Homeschool should be -- nicely dressed, freshly pressed, very blessed children chanting Latin. Would I be willing to let go of my dream, for the sake of my child? Would I be willing? Would I be willing to be misunderstood about it, possibly looked down on because of it, and all the time unsure about whether or not my choice was right or would actually work in the end? So now I look at my friend and wonder, Where did she find the courage?

 

We (husband included) have decided to simply be friends with this family, not to "be an influence" or anything so noble as that! ;) No, I think friendship is a blessing in an of itself, and I don't want to toss away someone who could be a friend.

 

Thanks, Farrar.

This is probably the most gracious post I have ever read, anywhere.

[cavscout96]

Admittedly, I have only read the first page of posts, but here are my question?

 

1.  If WE all think that we can do a better job educating our children than the PS systems, then why would/should we "submit" (OP's term) to regulation by an entity deemed (by us) to be less capable of judging the true educational needs of your students?

 

2.  If PS systems are so horribly underfunded that they cannot pay a decent wage to their teachers, where are they going to find the budget and personnel to regulate HS activities?   Who will develp the standards?  Who decides what standards are considered and finally developed.

 

I get the impression that some are more concerned about how perceptions about Unschooling families reflect on more traditioanl/rigorous HS'ers.  Who cares?  I don't care what they do and I certainly don't care enough to have additionaly requiremetns imposed upon me due to THEIR (in)actions.  Let them be. none of my business.

 

 

just my opinion.  no offense intended to anyone.

 

 

-CS96

 

 

EDIT:  just read the most recent post quoting your ultimate decision on how to proceed.  Well done and very understanding.  I've decided to leave my post up simply as a matter of debating the principle of the original post despite your recent resolution.

[Hedgehogs4]

Exactly. I knew a boy who did almost all his "seatwork" while bouncing on an exercise ball. I'd say, "He's working on Core Knowledge, right?" LOL.

 

My ds did all of his lower grammar work bouncing on a an exercise ball and a mini trampoline in our basement, or aurally while building with legos. Smart kid--couldn't sit still. Worked for us.

[RootAnn]

How can it not be regulated? You pick a time frame- every year, every three years, whatever- and test the kids in reading and math. If they're more than, say, two grade levels behind, the parents go out and find a tutor. It really doesn't seem that difficult to me. I don't think anyone is suggesting we regulate every subject, but reading and math are the most important. If you can't read or do basic math, you're going to be screwed as an adult And if a hsed kid with no LDs is three or four years behind in reading or math, the parents obviously need some outside help with that subject. 

 

At what age would you start this testing? K? 1st? 2nd? 3rd? 

 

Let me give you my oldest as a first example. My oldest, at just-turned-7, showed a "mild deficiency" on a sight-reading test that was part of a group of tests to evaluate whether she would benefit from vision therapy. They flagged this as a concern. However, her phonetical ability tests (including the Phonological Awareness Skills Program) showed anywhere from slightly above average to four years above her age. Her Wold Sentence Copy test results were interpreted to be "well below age appropriate norms for speed of letter writing." She was diagnosed with dyslexia based on the tests they performed. With no vision therapy, she shortly started to 'take off' in her reading ability and soon turned into an avid book worm. While she would still tell you she hates the physical act of writing, within a couple of years, there was no issue with her letter-writing speed. None of the tests results were surprising to me. If she would have taken a standardized test in reading at that time, she would have probably scored poorly. At that age, what is "two grade levels behind"?

 

Now, for a second example, dd#2:  She, too, was a late reader. She struggled until around nine years old with fluency. Two grade levels behind? Very possibly. But, she loves audiobooks and listens to a ton of 'higher reading' in this way. Last fall, after a summer of voluntarily reading aloud picture books to her younger siblings, her reading stamina and fluency took off. She's reading & comprehending above grade level as of this spring (confirmed by a nationally normed standardized test, actually). Her 'reading' section raw score was actually above that of her sister at the same age. Her spelling ability is at least a year and possibly as much as two years behind still. (As was her older sister's and mine at this age.) Her word choice, sentence structure, and creative writing ability is well above grade level.

 

In both of these situations, I didn't need an outside tutor to help make a difference. I was always well aware of their ability. I kept working with them every day on these areas -- working with them MORE on their weak areas. The vision therapy doctor in my oldest daughter's case really wanted to "take away" her phonetical ability and "replace" it with sight word methods. What if their being 'behind' had been flagged under your proposed method and the tutor chosen used sight word methods that messed up all the groundwork I'd done with phonics to the point that my oldest didn't take off with reading the way she did under my continued methods? She may have been stuck with a dyslexia diagnosis and felt like she could never learn to read! Obviously, that is an extreme. However, after watching my older two and reflecting on my childhood, I believe I was a "late bloomer" and at least two of my kids so far have been, too. You could NOT have estimated in K, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd how well my dd#2 does with reading now. And outside intervention might have led her to believe she was 'stupid' and shut her down completely academically. (This statement is not extreme. It is based on actual evidence with this dd in another area.) 

 

I'm not in favor of regulation so much as assessment, and I don't care if the public schools are involved or not. There are plenty of private companies out there that can tell you your kid's reading level and whether your kid can add and subtract.

 

Most parents who actually work with their kids daily (private, public, or homeschooling) on schoolwork know their kid's approximate reading level and to what level they can add or subtract. They don't need a private company to tell them. I know of one unschooling family and a couple who "don't do school" often enough for my taste. The parents in all those cases are aware of what their kids can do and what they struggle with (if anything).

 

I am an advocate of less (not meaning "no") governmental regulation in all things (including many things most of you guys wouldn't agree with me on like the FDA, OSHA, and EPA). If there is evidence of neglect or abuse, educational or physical, turn 'em in.

 

IMO, more regulation doesn't lead to better outcomes.