SO SO Modesty: TSA agent shames 15yo

[SKL]

Thank you for totally proving my point that some people will always try to find a way to blame the victim. :001_rolleyes:

 

You know what, it doesn't matter if you, or a TSA agent, or anyone else is "offended" by camisoles — it is none. of. your. freaking. business. how anyone else dresses. NONE.

 

 

 

In fact, the father said that she was quite shaken up by the whole thing. The idea that she's "proud of herself" is something you have entirely invented, apparently out of some weird need to blame this girl for the fact that she was inappropriately harassed by a TSA agent. It's bad enough when men make excuses like that; I find it even sadder when women do it to other women.

 

Jackie

All I said was "maybe...who knows?" Apparently it's OK for some people to make all kinds of assumptions about the TSA guy and every human being who didn't like the girl's outfit, but it's not OK for me to say "maybe" about something that in fact does happen quite often in our society and in fact does create concern in older people. ... But here's something that seems pretty clear to me, like it or not. She was showing private parts in public. What assumptions are reasonable to glean from that? Hmm. None of them are things I'd want the world thinking about if she were my 15yo daughter. (PS, Why did I say she looks proud of herself? Because she went and took a photo of herself afterward, smiling, and presumably permitted her dad to broadcast it to the whole world. For the Cause, I suppose.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

(PS, Why did I say she looks proud of herself? Because she went and took a photo of herself afterward, smiling, and presumably permitted her dad to broadcast it to the whole world. For the Cause, I suppose.)

 

 

I'm glad that she took a photo of herself wearing the outfit in question. It allows me to make up my own mind as to whether it was appropriate. I'm glad that she's smiling. It is so much nicer to look at a smiling face. I don't see anything publicly inappropriate about her outfit. The camisole without a bra does not fit my own personal standards for my own dress or that of my daughter but I don't apply those standards to other people. And I don't think it was the TSA agents job to apply his standards to other people.

[nmoira]

But here's something that seems pretty clear to me, like it or not. She was showing private parts in public. What assumptions are reasonable to glean from that? Hmm. None of them are things I'd want the world thinking about if she were my 15yo daughter.

 

You seem rather fixated on this. Have you not noticed that your opinion is not consensus? And since she was not contravening any laws or regulations, exactly why is it relevant? At issue is not his right to make a private judgement (we all do it), but rather to act on that judgement where he had no right to do so.

 

(PS, Why did I say she looks proud of herself? Because she went and took a photo of herself afterward, smiling, and presumably permitted her dad to broadcast it to the whole world. For the Cause, I suppose.)

 

 

The Cause? Well, OK... :hurray: I'm on board.

[8circles]

 

All I said was "maybe...who knows?" Apparently it's OK for some people to make all kinds of assumptions about the TSA guy and every human being who didn't like the girl's outfit, but it's not OK for me to say "maybe" about something that in fact does happen quite often in our society and in fact does create concern in older people. ... But here's something that seems pretty clear to me, like it or not. She was showing private parts in public. What assumptions are reasonable to glean from that? Hmm. None of them are things I'd want the world thinking about if she were my 15yo daughter. (PS, Why did I say she looks proud of herself? Because she went and took a photo of herself afterward, smiling, and presumably permitted her dad to broadcast it to the whole world. For the Cause, I suppose.)

 

which privates are showing?

[LucyStoner]

As a formerly small chested teenager myself, I will just add that people need to stop worrying about if someone, 15 or 45, is or is not wearing a bra. I mostly never wore a bra until my milk came in and these foreign things on my chest rudely refused to GO AWAY after I weaned. I wish I believed in plastic surgery so I could force them to leave but elective, unnecessary surgery and the associated risks is a no dice situation for me.

 

The times I was told to wear a bra as a teen, I always flatly refused. You might assume it was a "stand" for feminism or my rights but in reality? It was just that I didn't wear bras and that was my (non-political) choice. I like my bras these days very, very much. :)

 

The cami she is wearing covers most of her "cleavage", breast flesh and all of her nipples. Ergo, it is legal attire in most (all, I hope) areas of the USA. Someone looking hard enough to see or imagine what is UNDER a girl's clothing is my definition of creepy, regardless of if the person looking is a male or female or not even attracted to women. So I guess what I am saying is that I am finding the posts on this very thread increasingly creepy.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ds15 suggested that it might be time to bring out the kilt pictures. I wasn't sure that was appropriate given the subject matter. . . :leaving: :laugh:

[nmoira]

Ds15 suggested that it might be time to bring out the kilt pictures. I wasn't sure that was appropriate given the subject matter. . . :leaving: :laugh:

 

Dunno, we have a nice breeze outside today...

[Joker]

I had to laugh today as I went grocery shopping. We're about 15 minutes from the beach and it's summer, so there were many people (mostly teens) in swimsuits. Some had cover-ups and some didn't. I didn't notice anyone staring, glaring, or making comments (and this is a large chain grocery store here). I didn't feel any of those people were showing off their private parts, so I definitely don't feel the girl in the article was showing anything either.

[ondreeuh]

First, I can easily imagine her looking seriously indecent if the flannel shirt is fully opened and she is braless (which is how it looks from the pic). A 15 year old girl busting out of a sheer white tank top is just dangerous IMO. We also don't know the tone of voice the agent used. What if he'd said it as a word of advice to her to avoid unwanted attention on the airplane? Like, "You're only 15 and need to cover up if you don't want creepers on the plane bothering you." If my dd wore something like that (escaping my detection) I would HOPE someone would warn her that she was indecent.

 

I know some/most people here will say that a woman never bears any responsibility for how people look at her, but I just disagree. In the real world, people send actual messages with their clothes. Someone who shows her body off in clothes is sending the message that she doesn't mind if people look and appreciate it. How many 15 year olds are really prepared for that kind of attention from guys who think she is inviting the attention?

[Danielle1746]

This whole thread reminds me of the 30 Rock episode where Liz tells Cerie she needs to wear a bra. You have to see the whole episode to really appreciate it, but...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkdRfbN6eew

[LucyStoner]

Someone who shows her body off in clothes is sending the message that she doesn't mind if people look and appreciate it. How many 15 year olds are really prepared for that kind of attention from guys who think she is inviting the attention?

 

 

When I was 15 I wore a whole lot more clothes than that most days (grunge era was pretty heavy on the layering, often I was as covered as I would be as a nun sans the head covering) and I still got "that kind of attention". Not sometimes, not rarely. A whole lot. Riding the bus while a pretty teenager, I had to learn how to tell off those sorts of guys fast. They are all cowards and usually a loud remark sends them running off. I cultivated a good "I will break your arm if you touch me like that accidentally on purpose again look"

 

The problem of "that sort of attention" will never be effectively solved by changing clothes. It only will be solved by changing attitudes about sex and social behavior. Street harassment of women is common (and nothing new- it happened to women in my grandmother's era) but asking the women to solve it is like asking a homeowner who has been robbed to solve the problem of theft by not having such good stuff to steal or telling them there is no crime because they didn't install a failsafe security system. That is what we all, as a culture are doing to girls day in and day out, year after year.

 

Street harassment continues because we blame the clothes, blame the girls, blame "the way it is", blame everyone and everything except for the creeps. It continues because we ignore it and girls are taught to "be nice" rather than strong enough to tell someone in no uncertain terms to back the heck off. Your attitude that someone is sending a message by wearing clothes is very much a part of the ongoing problem.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

When I was 15 I wore a whole lot more clothes than that most days (grunge era was pretty heavy on the layering, often I was as covered as I would be as a nun sans the head covering) and I still got "that kind of attention". Not sometimes, not rarely. A whole lot. Riding the bus while a pretty teenager, I had to learn how to tell off those sorts of guys fast. They are all cowards and usually a loud remark sends them running off. I cultivated a good "I will break your arm if you touch me like that accidentally on purpose again look"

 

The problem of "that sort of attention" will never be effectively solved by changing clothes. It only will be solved by changing attitudes about sex and social behavior. Street harassment of women is common (and nothing new- it happened to women in my grandmother's era) but asking the women to solve it is like asking a homeowner who has been robbed to solve the problem of theft by not having such good stuff to steal or telling them there is no crime because they didn't install a failsafe security system. That is what we all, as a culture are doing to girls day in and day out, year after year.

 

Street harassment continues because we blame the clothes, blame the girls, blame "the way it is", blame everyone and everything except for the creeps. It continues because we ignore it and girls are taught to "be nice" rather than strong enough to tell someone in no uncertain terms to back the heck off. Your attitude that someone is sending a message by wearing clothes is very much a part of the ongoing problem.

 

 

It is reminding me of these stories:

http://m.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/02/why-women-only-transit-options-have-caught/1171/

[Luanne]

I agree with the person who said leggings are not pants. They are designed to go under a dress not be worn by themselves. It is especially a problem when everyone seems to want to see how tight they can wear their clothes these days. They might as well not be wearing clothes because you can see everything anyway.

[nmoira]

When I was 15 I wore a whole lot more clothes than that most days (grunge era was pretty heavy on the layering, often I was as covered as I would be as a nun sans the head covering) and I still got "that kind of attention". Not sometimes, not rarely. A whole lot. Riding the bus while a pretty teenager, I had to learn how to tell off those sorts of guys fast. They are all cowards and usually a loud remark sends them running off. I cultivated a good "I will break your arm if you touch me like that accidentally on purpose again look"

 

The problem of "that sort of attention" will never be effectively solved by changing clothes. It only will be solved by changing attitudes about sex and social behavior. Street harassment of women is common (and nothing new- it happened to women in my grandmother's era) but asking the women to solve it is like asking a homeowner who has been robbed to solve the problem of theft by not having such good stuff to steal or telling them there is no crime because they didn't install a failsafe security system. That is what we all, as a culture are doing to girls day in and day out, year after year.

 

Street harassment continues because we blame the clothes, blame the girls, blame "the way it is", blame everyone and everything except for the creeps. It continues because we ignore it and girls are taught to "be nice" rather than strong enough to tell someone in no uncertain terms to back the heck off. Your attitude that someone is sending a message by wearing clothes is very much a part of the ongoing problem.

 

 

This reminds me of a teenager we saw on the bus a couple months back. Gorgeous, self assured. Some random guy (early 20's, maybe late teens) was harassing her in a strutting-cock type fashion, peppering her with personal questions, getting in her space. She listened silently for a couple minutes, then said, slowly and deliberately, "Unless you address me respectfully, I have no interest in conversing with you. Now would you please give me some space." And she turned away. My 8yo leaned over and whispered in my ear, "I *like* her." So do I.

[LucyStoner]

It is reminding me of these stories:

http://m.theatlantic...ve-caught/1171/

 

 

It's sad that there is a need that women-only transit serves but with the stories that have made the international headlines about the prevalence of street assault in a couple of the countries listed in the article, I totally see the interest in riding it. It still is a treatment and not a cure though. Call me unrealistic and idealistic but I don't believe we must accept this as a permanent and unchanging problem. I do think it can get better, very slowly, but better none the less. Our daughters (and our sons) deserve no less.

[unfrumpable.]

 

 

4. Where does someone need to live to still see the super low low riders ("around the thighs"). That is so passe. :lol:

 

 

 

Houston

[unfrumpable.]

All I said was "maybe...who knows?" Apparently it's OK for some people to make all kinds of assumptions about the TSA guy and every human being who didn't like the girl's outfit, but it's not OK for me to say "maybe" about something that in fact does happen quite often in our society and in fact does create concern in older people. ... But here's something that seems pretty clear to me, like it or not. She was showing private parts in public. What assumptions are reasonable to glean from that? Hmm. None of them are things I'd want the world thinking about if she were my 15yo daughter. (PS, Why did I say she looks proud of herself? Because she went and took a photo of herself afterward, smiling, and presumably permitted her dad to broadcast it to the whole world. For the Cause, I suppose.)

 

 

 

What private parts are showing?

[unfrumpable.]

First, I can easily imagine her looking seriously indecent if the flannel shirt is fully opened and she is braless (which is how it looks from the pic). A 15 year old girl busting out of a sheer white tank top is just dangerous IMO. We also don't know the tone of voice the agent used. What if he'd said it as a word of advice to her to avoid unwanted attention on the airplane? Like, "You're only 15 and need to cover up if you don't want creepers on the plane bothering you." If my dd wore something like that (escaping my detection) I would HOPE someone would warn her that she was indecent.

 

I know some/most people here will say that a woman never bears any responsibility for how people look at her, but I just disagree. In the real world, people send actual messages with their clothes. Someone who shows her body off in clothes is sending the message that she doesn't mind if people look and appreciate it. How many 15 year olds are really prepared for that kind of attention from guys who think she is inviting the attention?

 

 

She is definitely *not* busting out of that top. That is laughable.

[8circles]

I agree with the person who said leggings are not pants. They are designed to go under a dress not be worn by themselves. It is especially a problem when everyone seems to want to see how tight they can wear their clothes these days. They might as well not be wearing clothes because you can see everything anyway.

 

 

You aren't really saying she might as well be naked, are you?

[8circles]

 

 

It's sad that there is a need that women-only transit serves but with the stories that have made the international headlines about the prevalence of street assault in a couple of the countries listed in the article, I totally see the interest in riding it. It still is a treatment and not a cure though. Call me unrealistic and idealistic but I don't believe we must accept this as a permanent and unchanging problem. I do think it can get better, very slowly, but better none the less. Our daughters (and our sons) deserve no less.

 

 

I've been groped in 2 foreign countries while fully clothed, head to toe, bulky sweater and all. Not on public transit, just as a pedestrian. All the locals just shrugged it off - I was a woman, what did I expect?

[Corraleno]

What private parts are showing?

 

Apparently some people consider all areas between the neck, elbows, and knees "private parts."

 

I'd love to know who all these men are for whom the mere sight of a clavicle or belly button would instantly trigger "impure" thoughts. Because I really don't think that's normal. :confused1:

 

Jackie

[Wheres Toto]

I don't see any private parts showing.

 

I don't see how anyone can conclude she's not wearing a bra. At a quick glance, it's impossible to tell. If you want to stare at the girls chest for a while, things appear too smooth for her not to be wearing one, although it is possible if it's one of those cami's with a built-in elastic panel. Which in my (small busted and hardly ever wear a bra) opinion, doesn't need one. (a separate bra in addition to the panel, that is)

 

Whether leggings are pants or not is a matter of opinion. Tights are not pants. Leggings are not tights without feet. Footless tights are tights without feet. Proper leggings are thicker than most tights.

[Melissa in Australia]

_{guess I have never seen proper leggings, or they have thinner ones over here or something. I know that my 80 denier tights are just as think as the leggings I see around.}

[albeto]

None of them are things I'd want the world thinking about if she were my 15yo daughter.

 

This is the most interesting thing to me within this whole thread. I don't mean this particular comment, but this concept made by a number of people. This random young woman makes certain people feel awfully uncomfortable, seemingly because they're being bombarded with unexpected sexual thoughts they didn't ask to be entertaining. Interestingly, others are saying these thoughts simply don't come to their brains. I doubt anyone would argue that this teen is guilty of purposefully orchestrating a tactic to make people think sexual thoughts against their will, so... who did this? Who made people like you suddenly and unexpectedly jump to uncomfortable sexual associations? I think that's a rather sad commentary on those influences that shaped your moral code to have inundated people like you to immediately think of sex in an uncomfortable and helpless way when faced with the "trigger" of a young woman's body exposing certain shapes and curves.

 

(PS, Why did I say she looks proud of herself? Because she went and took a photo of herself afterward, smiling, and presumably permitted her dad to broadcast it to the whole world. For the Cause, I suppose.)

 

 

Which Cause? Illuminati? Muslim Obama? Communist Obama? Gay Agenda? New World Order?

[Mrs Mungo]

Which Cause? Illuminati? Muslim Obama? Communist Obama? Gay Agenda? New World Order?

 

I assumed Feminism.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I've been groped in 2 foreign countries while fully clothed, head to toe, bulky sweater and all. Not on public transit, just as a pedestrian. All the locals just shrugged it off - I was a woman, what did I expect?

 

 

I've been groped multiple times in crowded trains in Japan. The trick is to grab the hand and twist hard and whatever you do, do not let go! They can't scream because if they do, they will out themselves as a groper. (This is not accidental touching btw but purposeful groping.)

[LucyStoner]

I've been groped in 2 foreign countries while fully clothed, head to toe, bulky sweater and all. Not on public transit, just as a pedestrian. All the locals just shrugged it off - I was a woman, what did I expect?

 

 

Yeah, did you see the words from the woman in Japan they quoted? She says she has been groped 20 times (IIRC) and she steps on their foot or punches them. She doesn't want to report it ever because then the man would get in trouble and possibly lose their job or have issues with their wives (that seems implausible in the US but Japan is a lot different). She says she feels sorry for them. Even the victims minimize it sometimes.

 

It's not much better here in the USA as far as getting help from someone. I rarely have observed people intercede when a woman is being harassed or has been groped. I have/do/will but it usually gets me called a choice name or two. Dude, like I care if scum like you thinks I'm a b!tch.

[Mrs Mungo]

It's not much better here in the USA as far as getting help from someone. I rarely have observed people intercede when a woman is being harassed or has been groped. I have/do/will but it usually gets me called a choice name or two. Dude, like I care if scum like you thinks I'm a b!tch.

 

 

My aunt was once in a drive thru, a young woman was arguing with her boyfriend. He suddenly punched her in the face. My aunt rolled down her car window and asked, "do you want me to call the police?" The guy threw rocks at her truck and shattered all of the windows. Better just to call the police in most cases.

[LucyStoner]

guess I have never seen proper leggings, or they have thinner ones over here or something. I know that my 80 denier tights are just as think as the leggings I see around.

 

 

Here leggings are usually made of cotton, polyester, lycra or spandex. The same materials used in yoga pants or workout gear. They are not all the same hose like material as tights, even the most opaque tights. Some are thinner but many are more like a thick t-shirt material, not hosiery. They are sold to wear with shirts, tunics and dresses, not only paired with dresses. Here are some from Nordstroms and you can see they are pictures with shirts and tunics of various lengths.

 

[LucyStoner]

My aunt was once in a drive thru, a young woman was arguing with her boyfriend. He suddenly punched her in the face. My aunt rolled down her car window and asked, "do you want me to call the police?" The guy threw rocks at her truck and shattered all of the windows. Better just to call the police in most cases.

 

 

It depends on the circumstances. If an active physical assault is going on, yeah call the police. But if a guy is on a bus making lewd remarks, telling him to shut up and "leave her alone" often works just fine. In many, many incidents either defending myself or others I've never come out with so much as a scratch.

 

One thing I did one time was pretend to know the girl who was being harassed , like we were running into each other on the street and I was trying to catch up on the news. That gave her the opening to walk away with me and the man who helped me approach her. "Oh, Melissa it's so good to see you!"

 

Too often no one does anything, be it personally or calling the police. That doesn't sit with me. I don't pick a fight I can't win, but firmness and humor go a long way in many, many situations. Even just to let someone know they are not alone.

[KungFuPanda]

Some of you must be looking at a different photo. I'm not seeing her belly buton OR clear evidence of bralessness. When you are small breasted you can choose a bra that offers coverage without unnatural shaping.

 

In many cultures, however, age determines your "place" in the world. If your waiter was older than you, he could comment on your clothing as he is your elder and elders have the right to give younger people their "advice" on things. You are to show your respect for them and accept their advice humbly.

Here is a recent example: our amah (housekeeper/nanny) has a teenage daughter. This daughter has a boyfriend. We have never met the boyfriend. My dh was out one day and saw the two driving by. The boyfriend was driving like a maniac. When my dh got home, he told our amah about it. She then gave my dh the boy's phone number and my dh called the boy and scolded him for his terrible, dangerous driving. In American culture the boy's reaction would be "F--k Y-u old man! You're not my dad. It's none of your business!" But here the boy said, "I am so sorry uncle. Please forgive me uncle. I will be more careful I promise." The young people here refer to anyone older than them as uncle or auntie even if they don't know them.

Was it my dh's "place" to scold this boy for his driving? In America? No. In many other parts of the world? Not only is it his place, it is expected of him as a contributing member of society.

 

Would he call a 15-year-old girl about her outfit?

 

Somehow I doubt that she was shamed into thinking about her clothing choices. And with the reactions of her parents and their friends, I don't think that will change. I expect she, like her father's friend, thought the guy was just rude, "creepy," and "Talibany."

 

Was 'Talibany' an adjective BEFORE ths thread?

[nmoira]

Was 'Talibany' an adjective BEFORE ths thread?

 

Hard to tell as it appears to be a somewhat common surname.

[Hoot]

Some of this is getting silly. A grouchy older guy told a teen girl to cover herself. That's hardly humiliation and verbal abuse. He made a comment. He didn't hold her up for public ridicule. Her dad did a fine job of that by writing a national article about it. Now the entire country can argue over whether or not what she was wearing was showing too much of her boobs. Yeah, the TSA guy shouldn't have said it but, good grief, "Taliban-y?" Really? Now this TSA guy is an extremist and wants to control women and the decisions women make about their health and bodies? The guy made an inappropriate comment to one person. Let's not extrapolate that into an entire political agenda of theocracy. I agree with a pp who said that is quite insulting to the women who actually lived under the Taliban.

 

 

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. Good. Grief.

He didn't tell her she couldn't board the plane until she changed. He didn't stand her up in front of everyone in the airport and verbally degrade her. He didn't scream, "MOTHER OF GOD YOU LOOK LIKE A WHORE." He simply muttered that at 15 she should be wearing more clothes. Not one of us was there, therefore, we'll never know exactly what transpired in all its minutia. The man can have his opinion, but sometimes it is in your best interest to keep said opinion to yourself. However, calling this anything more than a case of diarrhea of the mouth is just ridiculous.

[Kathryn]

 

 

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. Good. Grief.

He didn't tell her she couldn't board the plane until she changed. He didn't stand her up in front of everyone in the airport and verbally degrade her. He didn't scream, "MOTHER OF GOD YOU LOOK LIKE A WHORE." He simply muttered that at 15 she should be wearing more clothes. Not one of us was there, therefore, we'll never know exactly what transpired in all its minutia. The man can have his opinion, but sometimes it is in your best interest to keep said opinion to yourself. However, calling this anything more than a case of diarrhea of the mouth is just ridiculous.

 

Agree. Other articles I read said that he was muttering to himself and she confronted him and demanded to know what he was saying.

[nmoira]

Agree. Other articles I read said that he was muttering to himself and she confronted him and demanded to know what he was saying.

 

From her father's blog post, quoted in the OP:

 

She said the officer was "glaring" at her and mumbling. She said, "Excuse me?" and he said, "You're only 15, COVER YOURSELF!" in a hostile tone.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

She was showing private parts in public.

 

I'm so confused. Which private parts was she showing? The very top of her cleavage? That's private now? Were her nipples visible through her shirt? (And I don't mean "headlights on," which happens to all women, even with a bra on.) Were her pants crotchless? I did not see a single "private part" in the photo that was shared.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I agree with the person who said leggings are not pants. They are designed to go under a dress not be worn by themselves.

 

According to who? IIRC, you're talking about pantyhose/tights.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Some days I am very sad to have given birth to girls in this world :(

[albeto]

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. Good. Grief.

He didn't tell her she couldn't board the plane until she changed. He didn't stand her up in front of everyone in the airport and verbally degrade her. He didn't scream, "MOTHER OF GOD YOU LOOK LIKE A WHORE." He simply muttered that at 15 she should be wearing more clothes. Not one of us was there, therefore, we'll never know exactly what transpired in all its minutia. The man can have his opinion, but sometimes it is in your best interest to keep said opinion to yourself. However, calling this anything more than a case of diarrhea of the mouth is just ridiculous.

 

Ah, see, this is where my geek flag flies. I think discussing the issues that inspired the man to say what he said, and the father to publish what he did, is enormously important. We live in a culture that is at the same time trying to go forwards and backwards, and I think we owe our children the courtesy of leaving them with a society that respects them. All of them. The idea that this TSA agent could be compared to the Taliban is, in my opinion, far reaching. The poster made a good point when she said that's insulting to women who really have suffered under the Taliban, and let's face it, this teen will likely never ever know that kind of oppression. At the same time, as an analogy, the meaning was perfectly clear and accurarte - the oppression of women and the desire to dominate and control them in every aspect of society is alive and well, even if subtle. Just because it's subtle, just because it's far less intense than we see in the Middle East, doesn't relinquish us from the responsibility of identifying and eradicating misogyny when we do come across it. There may not appear to be a victim in this circumstance, but the oppression of women absolutely does victimize countless women (and children, and LGBTQ, and elderly, and immigrants, and etc) in our own society. Shockingly, in many cases, this oppression is legally enforced and protected. Girls are raised to defend it and interpret it as a sense of security. It's not ridiculous to point out and stand up against oppression. Ever.

[Slartibartfast]

It looks like comfortable and appropriate airline attire.

 

The TSA guy was out of line, it is not ok to chastise women for their clothing choices, it is even less ok to admonish under age girls for their clothing choices.

 

I think the leggings look fine, she is wearing a long shirt over them and they are thick, she isn't wearing pantyhose. *shrug*

 

I think it is darned hilarious a TSA agent has anything to say about someone's outfit being appropriate before directing them to the pornoscanner.

[Corraleno]

Agree. Other articles I read said that he was muttering to himself and she confronted him and demanded to know what he was saying.

 

So, if a TSA agent grumbles at a girl in a baggy tee shirt and she says "Excuse me?" she is asking for clarification, but if he grumbles at a girl in a skimpy top and she says "Excuse me?" then she's being "confrontational" and "demanding." Oh, and probably flirting. Assuming she isn't just out and out lying.

 

 

(We need an eye rolling smiley with bigger eyes. That fall out. And roll off the page.)

 

Jackie

[Kathryn]

So, if a TSA agent grumbles at a girl in a baggy tee shirt and she says "Excuse me?" she is asking for clarification, but if he grumbles at a girl in a skimpy top and she says "Excuse me?" then she's being "confrontational" and "demanding." Oh, and probably flirting. Assuming she isn't just out and out lying.

 

 

(We need an eye rolling smiley with bigger eyes. That fall out. And roll off the page.)

 

Jackie

 

1. Nothing I've read said he was speaking to her incoherently. It's all said that he was mumbling under his breath.

 

2. You can't just make up your imaginary scenario wherein a baggy-shirted girl does the same thing and reports are worded differently. Didn't happen.

 

3. Many articles used the word "confronted." Not sure what the problem is with that word. He was talking to himself and SHE approached HIM wanting him to say out loud what he had been muttering to himself.

 

4. I never said flirting. Or "out and out lying," though I did suggest the whole story makes more sense if she weren't wearing the flannel shirt at the time of the incident. It just doesn't compute for me that someone used to seeing the attire of people in Los Angeles would find the outfit as presented worth mentioning at all. I don't really care either way. This whole thing is ridiculous.

[nmoira]

3. Many articles used the word "confronted." Not sure what the problem is with that word. He was talking to himself and SHE approached HIM wanting him to say out loud what he had been muttering to himself.

 

She had no choice but to physically approach him as he was to examine her ID and ticket. :confused:

[Corraleno]

He was talking to himself and SHE approached HIM wanting him to say out loud what he had been muttering to himself.

 

Have you been in an airport lately? Have you been through the ID checking procedure? :confused1:

 

He was obviously checking her ID — how else would he have known she was 15? She would have been standing right next to him at the kiosk where they check ID & boarding passes before letting you get in the security screening line. The agents often ask questions — where are you going, how long are you staying, is it vacation or business, etc.

 

If the TSA agent who was looking at my ID and boarding pass was glaring at me and mumbling, I would be worried that he felt there was a problem with my documents and I would certainly say "Excuse me?" or something similar. If he then made a nasty comment about my clothes, I would be just as stunned as she was.

 

If what you are picturing in your head is that she was standing somewhere else and heard him mumbling and then "approached" his kiosk and "demanded" to know what he was saying, then I think you are imagining something very different from what happened.

 

Jackie

[Danielle1746]

Would the reaction to this incident be any different if the TSA agent was a woman? I don't understand why this has to be about men trying to control women.

 

Yes, as long as she's not breaking laws or violating the airport/airline policy, she has a right to dress how she wants. And yes, others have a right to think she's dressed inappropriately (in general or for her age). But it would just be rude to actually say something about it.

 

What if someone told one of the denim jumper folks, "Geez, you need to lighten up a little!" Yes, the denim jumper people can wear denim jumpers all they want. And yes, others can think they're stuffy and prudish. And again, it would be rude to actually say something to them, but I don't think anyone would think the person who spoke was actually trying to control or dominate them. They just didn't know when to keep their opinions to themselves.

[Slartibartfast]

Would the reaction to this incident be any different if the TSA agent was a woman? I don't understand why this has to be about men trying to control women.

 

Yes, as long as she's not breaking laws or violating the airport/airline policy, she has a right to dress how she wants. And yes, others have a right to think she's dressed inappropriately (in general or for her age). But it would just be rude to actually say something about it.

 

What if someone told one of the denim jumper folks, "Geez, you need to lighten up a little!" Yes, the denim jumper people can wear denim jumpers all they want. And yes, others can think they're stuffy and prudish. And again, it would be rude to actually say something to them, but I don't think anyone would think the person who spoke was actually trying to control or dominate them. They just didn't know when to keep their opinions to themselves.

 

I don't think it would make a difference. I don't go around telling young men to pull their pants up, that would be rude.

[Danielle1746]

I don't think it would make a difference. I don't go around telling young men to pull their pants up, that would be rude.

 

I agree completely, although there have been plenty of times that I've really, really, really wanted to! :lol: But even if my opinions got the better of me and I did make a comment, I don't think that would mean that I was actually trying to oppress and dominate them.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

I agree completely, although there have been plenty of times that I've really, really, really wanted to! :lol: But even if my opinions got the better of me and I did make a comment, I don't think that would mean that I was actually trying to oppress and dominate them.

 

We are talking about a young woman and an older man in a position of authority in a society that sexualizes women to the point that a giant Victoria's Secret boob poster in the store window is fine, but the breast feeding mom gets harassed. It is all about context. This incident didn't happen in a vacuum.

[albeto]

Would the reaction to this incident be any different if the TSA agent was a woman? I don't understand why this has to be about men trying to control women.

 

Fair question, and I would answer no, the reaction would not be any different if the TSA agent was a woman. This isn't about men controlling women, but the control of women, by men, by women, individually and collectively, independently and as part of public policy. Oppression of a group is not justifiable ethically, morally, economically, politically, or in any number of rational, defensible ideologies and practices. In many cases, the one oppressing the woman is another woman, or even herself. It's still not justifiable morally, even if it is defended personally and sincerely.

 

Yes, as long as she's not breaking laws or violating the airport/airline policy, she has a right to dress how she wants. And yes, others have a right to think she's dressed inappropriately (in general or for her age). But it would just be rude to actually say something about it.

 

It would be rude for a random stranger to say something about another person's dress, but being a TSA agent puts him in a position of particular authority. Airport security isn't taken lightly, and we can all recognize the probable outcome of resisting an agent's commands, regardless of how odd or inappropriate they may seem to us. I think most of us have heard about and seen photos about some unsettling accounts in relation to the recent [virtual or physical] body searches for airport security. It can be a frightening experience for anyone who feels particularly vulnerable (a state of emotion not wholly unexpected of a 15 year old teen when travelling without her family). The TSA agent, just by virtue of his position and potential power he has, made this event exceed social rudeness.

 

What if someone told one of the denim jumper folks, "Geez, you need to lighten up a little!" Yes, the denim jumper people can wear denim jumpers all they want. And yes, others can think they're stuffy and prudish. And again, it would be rude to actually say something to them, but I don't think anyone would think the person who spoke was actually trying to control or dominate them. They just didn't know when to keep their opinions to themselves.

 

If the person reprimanding the jumper wearer had the authority to detain the jumper wearer for hours, interrogate her in an intimidating environment, require her to disrobe and be subjected to a body search, then your analogy would be fitting, I think.

[Danielle1746]

We are talking about a young woman and an older man in a position of authority in a society that sexualizes women to the point that a giant Victoria's Secret boob poster in the store window is fine, but the breast feeding mom gets harassed. It is all about context. This incident didn't happen in a vacuum.

 

OK, but since we live in a society that sexualizes women that way, how is he making it worse by thinking she should be covered up so that she is not looked at the same way men look at the VS poster? He wasn't ogling her. He was trying to keep her from being ogled. That's not to take the blame away from men who can't control themselves but to protect her from men who won't. Just like you lock the doors on your car/your house to protect your stuff. It sucks that there are people out there who make it necessary, and it's completely their fault if they decide to steal your stuff, but you still do what you can to protect yourself. And different people need different levels of protection to be comfortable (locking the doorknob, locking the deadbolt, using an alarm system, etc.).

 

The only context we have in this case is that she was wearing an outfit that some might consider revealing, while others might not--as evidenced by the responses in this thread. This man happened to think it was revealing, if only because of her age. Who knows? He was either disgusted by it or concerned by it or both, either of which he's allowed to be. He just screwed up by voicing his opinion out loud. That makes him rude and unprofessional. It does not make him a pervert or a misogynist.