Argumentative people

[fairfarmhand]

I have recently figured out something WRT my oldest dd. She just pushes back and argues out of general principle.

 

For instance, she recently participated in an activity for 4H. I'll spare you the details, but to prevent her from being put in a potentially difficult situation, we planned on taking her out to dinner. She argued fussed and put up a big fight, but my dh and I stood firm. By the time the activity came around, she was fine with the idea. In fact, I called her with an alternative arrangement the morning of the activity, and she said, No I'd rather go with you. Can I invite some people along? We ended up taking her friends and the activity chaperone out to dinner and having a great time.

 

We've replayed the same dynamic over the course of her life dozens of times. We have things that must be done, ideas to implement. She balks. We stand firm. She has a great time.

 

This mindset puzzles me. Does anyone have any experience with this? Is anyone else like this?

 

Part of the puzzle is clear to me. She is a perfectionist. Once she gets a certain vision in her head of how things should go, she has a hard time letting go of that. She lacks the flexibility to see that other alternatives might be just as fun, maybe even more fun that what she originally had in mind.

 

Thoughts?

[PrairieSong]

It sounds like it is just part of her personality/temperament. My dh is inflexible like that, though over the years he has become somewhat better. Self awareness helps a lot, and just life experience. Could you have a talk with her about this when things are calm? Point out that nothing bad happened from the decision you made, and in fact, everyone ended up having a good time.

 

One other other thing that might be helpful is to read some books about temperament. If you and she are very different, it may be hard to understand her and her reactions, the way she sees things. Reading about this helped me to understand my own kids better, especially the ones who are on the opposite spectrum of the personality chart! My older kids have loved reading about this, too. Perhaps your dd would like to read about it also. It might give her some insight into her own ways of thinking and reacting to situations.

[happyhomemaker]

That last paragraph is me to a T. It's not that I can't see other alternatives or realize that other things might be fun. It's just not what I have in my head as what is "supposed" to happen. I've gotten much better over the years. It really is a maturity and time issue. Also if I have to see another view point when I already have something planned out in my head, it's good for me to have some space to get used to the idea. In other words, someone changing my plans and expecting me to be fine and excited 30 seconds later is too much for me. I need to mull it over and get adjusted to the idea. Maybe when you need to change your daughter's plans, give her some space to think about it a bit. Expect that there will be an adjustment period as she changes her thinking, and don't push her to be fine with the new plans immediately.

[fairfarmhand]

I'm kind of confused by the example. Did you make a decision regarding what she was going to do without her input? I can see how this would be upsetting to any 14 year old. But I'm not sure if I got that right.

 

I mean I get it, we make decisions for our kids and we sometimes cannot practically consider their input or we simply decided we don't want to, but I think most 14 year olds would question it.

 

I am very argumentative. I guess I feel the need to consider all the angles. And I want to know why why why and I want the answer to make sense and be reasonable. And if it isn't I will balk. I don't know why I'm like that, but I am.

 

yes. We did make the decision because we felt it was a matter of personal safety.

 

But it's not just that type of thing. It's mostly just habit?...inclination?...I don't know what to call it. She just pushes back on almost everything. "You want to go with me up to Sonic for a slushy?" "awww....why can;t we go to Wendy's?"

 

I can be trying to do something fun for her, plan an activity, give her a gift and she just is kind of balky.

 

This realization is freeing though. I've stopped taking the constant pushing and questioning personally. It's just the way she is. It's not that she's unappreciative of things that I do, but it's just more that she can't let go of her own ideas that she considers far superior to anyone else's.

[LostSurprise]

There is a personality type where they have more confidence and understanding of their own point of view, and less understanding or need for other points of view. I think they're known as skeptics in Myers-Briggs. Not generally people-pleasers but they can understand the need to please people in certain situations (mom is not usually one of those situations...unless they want something).

 

My oldest has this type. If your daughter can (ahead of time) come to see your point of view, I consider you lucky. ;) She's doing the processing, it just takes longer. I find my son to be very experience-based. He usually has to experience it before he can add it to his understanding. Logic will work to a point and is very important in dealing with him, but logic relies on experience. New things can be tough here.

[fairfarmhand]

other examples....she was like 9 yrs old when this happened. I told the kids we would go to the park the next day. Then that day it was pouring down rain. She flipped out. Said I lied to her. I was like , "What??? Can't you see it's raining?"

 

Other examples. We have plans, but a child gets sick. She gets VERY upset that we can't go, even insisting that I go with sick children in tow.

 

And she wonders why I answer every plan with "We'll see." even though it irritates her?

[Koerarmoca]

I know adults like this...I think it's pretty typical for Tweens/teens...a grown woman not so much!

[fairfarmhand]

I know adults like this...I think it's pretty typical for Tweens/teens...a grown woman not so much!

I dearly hope that she outgrows this trait...or at least learns to moderate it!

[Koerarmoca]

 

I dearly hope that she outgrows this trait...or at least learns to moderate it!

 

Yes, my frustration is with a family member though. I could of worded that better with out feeling I wrote something catty.

[sassenach]

Ds is like this. He just doesn't like change. I've had to pretty much force him into every activity he's ever done. Things that he's passionate about now were things I had to MAKE him start.

 

He's also a kid who wants all known details of every event or activity in advanced. We have a weekly gathering at my house. Not only does he want to know who's coming, he also wants to know what food they're bringing. Every field trip starts with him asking which families will be there. It drives me batty.

[fairfarmhand]

Ds is like this. He just doesn't like change. I've had to pretty much force him into every activity he's ever done. Things that he's passionate about now were things I had to MAKE him start.

 

He's also a kid who wants all known details of every event or activity in advanced. We have a weekly gathering at my house. Not only does he want to know who's coming, he also wants to know what food they're bringing. Every field trip starts with him asking which families will be there. It drives me batty.

oh my....yes we deal with this constantly. What time will we be leaving to go to x? After we get done with a b and c. But what time will that be? I don't know. It depends on how quickly we get through the stuff that we need to do. What time do you THINK it will be? I don't know exactly. Some time this afternoon!!!!!

[Mom-2-7]

Wow! This is EXACTLY like my 7 year old. That girl would argue with a stop sign! She drives me bonkers. To make matters worse, she's naturally a very negative person. And she digs her heels in until I end up yelling at her and telling her how it's going to be. Then she ends up in tears and I feel like a terrible mom.

 

Hoping to hear about a better way.

[T'smom]

My ds is like this. He's only 5 though, so I have hopes he'll grow out of it. I never tell him plans until the last possible second because he flips out if something changes. If I suggest that he will like something, he will refuse out of spite. He loves to set up his stuffed animals like a zoo and take pictures of them. I suggested he do the same thing with the zillions of little plastic animals because we have so many more of them and he acted like he would rather die. If I say "let's walk to the park and get ice cream"he says he'd rather have a slushie. The sonic/Wendy's example you gave is so spot on. It is exactly what he would say even if sonic was his favorite thing ever. The hardest thing about this is that my dream even before he was born is that I was going to make school fun. That was what I wanted more than anything. It's impossible. Everything that comes from me is met with resistance. One thing that has helped with that is to leave things I think he'll like laying around. If he brings it to me and says he wants to do it, then it's fun.

[fairfarmhand]

Wow! This is EXACTLY like my 7 year old. That girl would argue with a stop sign! She drives me bonkers. To make matters worse, she's naturally a very negative person. And she digs her heels in until I end up yelling at her and telling her how it's going to be. Then she ends up in tears and I feel like a terrible mom.

 

Hoping to hear about a better way.

here's what I've found that helps...first of all, I;ve had to stop taking it personally. I've figured out that this child would argue and be grumpy if Jesus was her parent, so it's not just me. :)

 

Second, I will listen for a set amount of time, so she knows she's been heard, but I will not allow it to continue after that point. After that point I say something like, "Okay dear, I do understand where you're coming from (even if I don't) but as a mom, I must make the best decisions for the family, so here is the way that things will go. Nothing that you can say will change my mind at this point, so you may as well make up your mind that you will not get your way on this one. " Usually, at that point I get a "But, blah blah blah." If I'm in a good mood I will say, "Nevertheless. this is the decision I've made." usually I am worn down by the drama, and I say. "Sorry, don't mention it again or you will get consequences."

[Truscifi]

Ds9 can be like this as well. We talk often about being flexible and "rolling with the punches" - literally and figuratively since he does martial arts.

[Parrothead]

My ds is like this. He's only 5 though, so I have hopes he'll grow out of it. I never tell him plans until the last possible second because he flips out if something changes.

 

I like my schedule. I don't handle changes to it very well. Ideally I would like at least a week's notice that there will be a change. Unless it is my idea. If I change the schedule then it is okay.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I have a boy like that, I think. We're learning he needs more time to process information than our other kids. He gets it in his head how something is going to be, so if anything gets in the way of his plan, he sometimes just melts down. (I think I can be like this on occasion too. I work up in my head what something will be like and never utter a word to anyone, then I am disappointed when it's not like it is in my head.)

 

We see it a lot at the table. He will resist trying something we know he would like, to the point of my husband yelling at him to try it (although he doesn't mean to, it just tends to escalate). Finally, when we can get him to take a bite, he gets a big grin on his face because he likes it so much. I try to remember these situations and remind him how much he ended up liking something he thought he would hate. Other than that, I'm looking for suggestions too!

[Element]

This was my husband exactly until a few years ago. It is extremely difficult to live with, isn't it?

 

I think her issues will get better with time and experience. As an independent adult, you are thrown into situations which don't fit your little plan. In times like those, you can bend or you can break. I've seen both happen, and breaking doesn't break you forever. Breaking just allows you to build yourself up in a more flexible way (look into Dabrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration here) giving you greater chance for success in future "bend or break" situations.

 

As far as being tolerable goes? Make her read this book when she's old enough: Choosing Civility: The 25 Rules of Considerate Conduct. Dh had to read it in business school and I think it helped him have a basic framework for what to do in certain situations. I think perfectionism can be paralyzing.

 

Dh is now "Mr. Zen." He makes me look like a hothead, and I'm a hoopdancing, margarita-drinking pacifist. Just give it time and continue to be an example of flexibility and civility, and she will eventually get there. (Hopefully, for the sake of your family and her future husband, she gets there before age 30! :) )

 

Here is a quote from the Wikipedia page on OCPD. I'm not at all suggesting your dd has this disorder, but I found these suggestions helpful. Dh employed several of these self-help techniques when he was attempting to break out of his own rigidity and control issues.

 

Psychotherapy is not always available, therefore people are advised to read as much as possible about the disorder and seek the cooperation of their families and friends to remind them in a non-confrontational manner when they begin engaging in OCPD behaviours. Self-help may be crucial for a swift accommodation to having to deal with people and situations in what may seem an unfamiliar manner. Self-insight is no less significant. Self-help techniques include keeping a diary for noting down anything that is upsetting, anxiety-provoking, or that overwhelms and depresses the OCPD individual. Family members can help by making a note of their observations and sharing them in a non-confrontational manner. (emphasis mine)

[lailasmum]

I have a friend like this. He always has to be right and in control. It used to bug me and I know other people have mentioned it to him and his wife and reduced contact with him because it can be annoying. These days I find he does it less with me because he seems to accept that I know what I am talking about generally and am not just talking rubbish and because I have pushed back a few times. I think it helps him relax, I guess its a control freak/perfectionist thing.

[KrissiK]

My oldest kid thrives on conflict. He loves it. He baits, pushes buttons, argues and he loves it. And what's even more strange....he will bait me and bait me until I have to pull an "Alpha Dog" on him and then, it's like some release happens and he's relaxed and cheerful and helpful. A complete turn-around in attitude. It's the strangest dynamic I have ever witnessed. He's a pretty normal kid, but it's just some strange tempermental quirk about him. I've noticed this in the past several months.

[briansmama]

Is she gifted? The list of defining characteristics on hoagies gifted website lists intensity and perfectionism and your daughter sounds like both. We've never had ds tested for giftedness but the list pretty much describes him to a T. When he was younger I thought he was just strong-willed. Now though I see he is a very intense child who feels things deeply. He needs to have input in whatever situation he's participating in, and he often thinks he can handle/manage situations better than most adults. On the flip side, he's very responsible, aware, and punctual, so there are benefits, but it's still challenging.

 

I've recently started waiting until just before an event/outing to let him in on the plans. While this probably wouldn't work well with a teen, it works surprisingly well with my ds. He doesn't get the time to over-analyze and fight for a better plan. A little sneaky, but he does seem calmer knowing the situation has been handled and it's not his responsibility to improve the outcome.

[OrganicAnn]

Two thoughts. Could you try to do what she wants and let the natural consequences sink in. Not the 4H/Dinner, but the going to the park in the rain. Pack up some books and drive the kids to the park and sit in the car. Obviously you have to pick and choose when you do this, but even if it wastes time it may help the next time.

 

On the contrariness, like "Let's go to Wendy's. Ah why not McDonalds." Can you do that back to her so that she knows how it feels? If she says "Can we go to the park." You say "Ahh why did you have to say the Park when I want to go to the zoo." And then pout.

 

I don't know if either would help, but it is worth thinking about.

 

My older brother went through a phase where he never wanted to go anywhere. Park - no. Drag him there. He had a good time. Repeat. He got over it somewhere in his teens or twenties.

[Isabella]

This was my husband exactly until a few years ago. It is extremely difficult to live with, isn't it?

 

I think her issues will get better with time and experience. As an independent adult, you are thrown into situations which don't fit your little plan. In times like those, you can bend or you can break. I've seen both happen, and breaking doesn't break you forever. Breaking just allows you to build yourself up in a more flexible way (look into Dabrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration here) giving you greater chance for success in future "bend or break" situations.

 

As far as being tolerable goes? Make her read this book when she's old enough: Choosing Civility: The 25 Rules of Considerate Conduct. Dh had to read it in business school and I think it helped him have a basic framework for what to do in certain situations. I think perfectionism can be paralyzing.

 

Dh is now "Mr. Zen." He makes me look like a hothead, and I'm a hoopdancing, margarita-drinking pacifist. Just give it time and continue to be an example of flexibility and civility, and she will eventually get there. (Hopefully, for the sake of your family and her future husband, she gets there before age 30! :) )

 

Here is a quote from the Wikipedia page on OCPD. I'm not at all suggesting your dd has this disorder, but I found these suggestions helpful. Dh employed several of these self-help techniques when he was attempting to break out of his own rigidity and control issues.

 

Psychotherapy is not always available, therefore people are advised to read as much as possible about the disorder and seek the cooperation of their families and friends to remind them in a non-confrontational manner when they begin engaging in OCPD behaviours. Self-help may be crucial for a swift accommodation to having to deal with people and situations in what may seem an unfamiliar manner. Self-insight is no less significant. Self-help techniques include keeping a diary for noting down anything that is upsetting, anxiety-provoking, or that overwhelms and depresses the OCPD individual. Family members can help by making a note of their observations and sharing them in a non-confrontational manner. (emphasis mine)

 

 

Glad to hear your Dh has improved. Mine has OCPD too. He refuses to accept it outwardly, but we have had so much friction here for years and I'm getting completely over it, so he's starting to pull his head in a bit. I don't know if it's temporary or not, but enjoying it anyway.

 

My daughter also has these tendencies, and has become aware of it, and that helps hugely when trying to moderate responses. She and I also figured out quite recently why we always hit heads with each other....I begin a debate/discussion with ideas and viewpoints and come at it from all sorts of angles to figure out for myself what sits best with me. She, on the other hand, says that she comes up with a possible end viewpoint and states it (to me it seems in a very definite way), assuming that then someone will challenge/add input, so she can work out if that viewpoint actually WAS the one she wanted! So we figured out that I begin at the beginning of the argument, and she begins at the end, and works backwards! Doesn't make much sense when writing it, but it was an interesting revelation to us, and means we don't push each others buttons so much when we understand how the other is proceeding in the debate.

[fairfarmhand]

wow....I've always thought she was so difficult because I am such a rotten parent!

 

so it really IS personality style.

 

You guys have totally made my day. I am off to look up skeptics on the myers briggs.

[GailV]

My SIL is like this. She goes through phases where it's worse, and phases where she's more flexible.

 

It's easier to deal with in a SIL since the relationship isn't such a close, daily interaction. It's also easier to deal with once I realized that she was going to automatically disagree with new plans, but would often decide they were okay once she'd had time to think about it.

[justamouse]

Wow! This is EXACTLY like my 7 year old. That girl would argue with a stop sign! She drives me bonkers. To make matters worse, she's naturally a very negative person. And she digs her heels in until I end up yelling at her and telling her how it's going to be. Then she ends up in tears and I feel like a terrible mom.

 

Hoping to hear about a better way.

 

Read The Optimistic Child. Not that she's depressed at all, but that she's pessimistic, and that response is her default. The book will give you tools to break her of that habit.

[Mom-2-7]

here's what I've found that helps...first of all, I;ve had to stop taking it personally. I've figured out that this child would argue and be grumpy if Jesus was her parent, so it's not just me. :)

Second, I will listen for a set amount of time, so she knows she's been heard, but I will not allow it to continue after that point. After that point I say something like, "Okay dear, I do understand where you're coming from (even if I don't) but as a mom, I must make the best decisions for the family, so here is the way that things will go. Nothing that you can say will change my mind at this point, so you may as well make up your mind that you will not get your way on this one. " Usually, at that point I get a "But, blah blah blah." If I'm in a good mood I will say, "Nevertheless. this is the decision I've made." usually I am worn down by the drama, and I say. "Sorry, don't mention it again or you will get consequences."

 

 

I have done that. It works to a point. She still follows me around with her arguments. Eventually I have to send her to her room because she won't let it go.

 

Read The Optimistic Child. Not that she's depressed at all, but that she's pessimistic, and that response is her default. The book will give you tools to break her of that habit.

 

 

I will look into that book. Thank you!