Boy Scouts may revise their national policy regarding inclusion of gays

[elizabeth]

So, what we would do at the Eagle level (it's my job to conduct all EBoR for the entire district)? I have LDS members on my boards, usually. They aren't going to vote a unanimous board for an avowed gay candidate. I often have Catholic members, most of whom would not vote for an avowed homosexual. I use these men on boards because they've given their lives to Scouts and are passionate about what Scouts stands for. This is not as simple as "let the unit decide". The units belong to districts and councils. What happens at the council level for Friends of Scouting (the major fundraising every year)? No FoS $$ is going to come from an LDS unit to the council at that point.

Then your "Catholics" need to get schooled. The official Catholic stance on homosexuality is NOT the same as that of many denominations. Here it is from the US Bishops who are in accord with Rome.. There is nothing whatsoever in this document to indicate that a gay man could not pass muster as a candidate for Eagle Scout. In fact quite the opposite. But there are those who twist Catholic teaching to suit their bigotry of the moment. Please know that those persons are not in fact acting in accord with Catholic doctrine but rather their own version of it.

http://www.usccb.org...ion-2006.pdf��. http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/homosexuality/

[Lady Florida.]

So, what we would do at the Eagle level (it's my job to conduct all EBoR for the entire district)? I have LDS members on my boards, usually. They aren't going to vote a unanimous board for an avowed gay candidate. I often have Catholic members, most of whom would not vote for an avowed homosexual. I use these men on boards because they've given their lives to Scouts and are passionate about what Scouts stands for. This is not as simple as "let the unit decide". The units belong to districts and councils. What happens at the council level for Friends of Scouting (the major fundraising every year)? No FoS $$ is going to come from an LDS unit to the council at that point.

 

That would be a shame for local troops.

 

So these board members will punish fine young men because of their own prejudices? Yes, it will be a shame for local troops. If BSA says to accept it, and the board members refuse, it will not be the fault of the new policy or of the gay scouts. Those who refuse to get on board with the policy will be the problem. I'm not picking on you, Margaret, but I am picking on these men you are talking about.

 

ITA We have deliberately refused to donate money to BS in the past because of their discriminiation policy.

 

We won't even buy a cold soda from the BSA booths at craft fairs.

 

I still won't buy popcorn or a cold bottle of soda or water. See below.

 

It'll be a wash. Fundies and conservative will drop BSA and form something else. Progressives and liberals will finally be down with joining and supporting the BSA. Business as usual in the U.S.

 

This liberal will still not be down with supporting or having her son join (though he's at the top end of the age range for scouts). BSA believes that we, as atheists, are not capable of being good citizens or decent human beings. I wouldn't want them to have to touch my immoral dollars.

 

It will be interesting to watch if this gets implemented. Anytime I've brought up the fact that we wouldn't support or let ds join BSA because of their policy on atheists, I've been told that I'm free to start my own group. I'm not talking specifically about here, though I have seen such things on past threads on this board. I'm just talking about in general whenever I say why we won't support scouts. Now anyone who doesn't like the new policy is free to start their own group. The shoe will be on the other foot and I will be watching to see how well it fits.

[Jennifer3141]

I CAN see this being a problem. As a Mormon I can see them just using a Church internal scoutin proframg instead of BSA. The LDS Church makes up a substantial chunk of membership...and I greatly doubt there would be enough 'progressive' interest to make up for that. We'll see! Don't discount the Catholic influence, either. Some Cath. organizations are dropping Girl Scouts for AHG.

 

 

Well, I just got off the phone with a troop leader we spoke with in the fall. We ultimately decided we would not be interested in BS until this policy changed. I learned tonight that our local BS council had a list of 100 families that expressed interest between fall and now but chose not to become members due to homosexual discrimination. And we live in a little podunk-ish, mostly Xtian area. So there are a lot of progressives out there. We're here and we don't care about "queer" except that we love them. :D

 

I'm sure the LDS church will form something like AHG and go for it. They have the money to do so.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

"If this is done then (group X) will leave!" Yep. The same thing we have heard other times when civil rights have moved forward.

Edited January 29, 2013 by ChocolateReignRemix
Removed name-calling.

[Jenny in Florida]

Here is a good alternative to Boy Scouts. We have a local group which I would let my boys join if they were ever interested. So far they they are only interested in sports so it hasn't been an issue. http://www.campfireusa.org/

 

Camp Fire is a wonderful organization! Each of my kids was involved in a kind of peripheral way for a few years and would have loved to do more if there had been groups closer to us. We had nothing but good experiences.

[Murphy101]

I have mixed views as a Catholic. RC view of homosexuality orientation is not as harsh as some might think it is. Tho open practicing of homosexuality is another matter entirey.

 

Because of that, I don't have an issue necessarily knowing someone struggles with SSA.

 

However, I also have zero desire to contribute any child's temptation, so my sons would not be allowed to share a tent with someone homosexual anymore than I would permit them to share a tent with a girl. Thus, if we're had ever been inclined to have our boys in BSA, we would not do it unless this problem were resolved.

[Jennifer3141]

I have mixed views as a Catholic. RC view of homosexuality orientation is not as harsh as some might think it is. Tho open practicing of homosexuality is another matter entirey.

 

Because of that, I don't have an issue necessarily knowing someone struggles with SSA.

 

However, I also have zero desire to contribute any child's temptation, so my sons would not be allowed to share a tent with someone homosexual anymore than I would permit them to share a tent with a girl. Thus, if we're had ever been inclined to have our boys in BSA, we would not do it unless this problem were resolved.

 

 

Now Martha, your last paragraph interests me. You are right. I would not let my 13 year old son go camping with a girl and share a tent. However, is it a tempatation for a straight kid?? Or are you speaking as a parent of a theoretical gay child?

[Jenny in Florida]

LDS makes up around 10 percent of the BSA's membership. I believe that can easily be made up if the church decided to pull out of scouting. 65 percent of charters are held by churches, but that number became inflated when it became more difficult for school's, fire departments and other tax-money receiving groups to charter units because of discrimination laws (units that meet in schools are chartered by parent groups now, but a lot of units lost their charter). These entities may be able to resume chartering units again, so a loss of church charters won't be a huge blow.

 

Didn't UPS pull funding not that long ago, specifically because of the BSA's discriminatory policies?

 

And the UU church we went to for years stopped sponsoring their Boy Scout troop when the BSA clamped down with policies regarding gay scouts/leaders and when they refused to approve the UUA's religion badge curriculum. The UUA isn't the only denomination in this country that is intentionally inclusive, and I suspect theirs aren't the only church groups that dropped Boy Scouts over this issue. At least some of them may be able to come back if the policy is changed.

[NotSoObvious]

 

 

:hurray: :thumbup: :party:

 

I was abhorred when I started reading all of the hatred and bigotry contained in this thread, but your post reaffirmed my belief in society!

 

Seriously! I've had to walk away from this thread three times. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been shut down, although I'm still learning where the line is.

[Jennifer3141]

 

Didn't UPS pull funding not that long ago, specifically because of the BSA's discriminatory policies?

 

And the UU church we went to for years stopped sponsoring their Boy Scout troop when the BSA clamped down with policies regarding gay scouts/leaders and when they refused to approve the UUA's religion badge curriculum. The UUA isn't the only denomination in this country that is intentionally inclusive, and I suspect theirs aren't the only church groups that dropped Boy Scouts over this issue. At least some of them may be able to come back if the policy is changed.

 

The troop leader I spoke to a couple of hours ago was in a troop affiliated with our local UU church. I could hear him smiling tonight when he mentioned that they would be able to go home if this change does happen.

[ChristineW]

It's already an issue in at least 1 Eagle Board of Review. http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2013/01/review-board-endorses-gay-teen-ryan-andresen-s-eagle-scout-bid http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/08/ryan-andresen-gay-eagle-scout_n_2432564.html I don't know Mr. Andresen personally (even though we are local), but I am glad he is challenging the status quo. If his brave stand and our local council's recent actions have done anything to lead to the end of discrimination against gay scouts then I'm proud to have my son be a member (even if he is only a 1st grade Tiger). We know several families who have been working on this issue and who will be celebrating next week if the Scouts act.

--Christine

[ChocolateReignRemix]

It's already an issue in at least 1 Eagle Board of Review. http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2013/01/review-board-endorses-gay-teen-ryan-andresen-s-eagle-scout-bid http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/08/ryan-andresen-gay-eagle-scout_n_2432564.html I don't know Mr. Andresen personally (even though we are local), but I am glad he is challenging the status quo. If his brave stand and our local council's recent actions have done anything to lead to the end of discrimination against gay scouts then I'm proud to have my son be a member (even if he is only a 1st grade Tiger). We know several families who have been working on this issue and who will be celebrating next week if the Scouts act.

--Christine

 

 

I doubt anyone here who defends BSA's bigotry could provide a valid reason why that young man shouldn't receive his Eagle rank.

[justasque]

However, I also have zero desire to contribute any child's temptation, so my sons would not be allowed to share a tent with someone homosexual anymore than I would permit them to share a tent with a girl. Thus, if we're had ever been inclined to have our boys in BSA, we would not do it unless this problem were resolved.

 

 

Here's the thing. Just as there have been gays in the military since we've had a military, so there are gay scouts now. Pretending there aren't isn't helping anyone. When kids can be honest, it will be easier to make sure that no one has to be in an uncomfortable situation, tent-sharing-wise. It's tricky stuff, to be sure. But worth figuring out.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

 

So, what we would do at the Eagle level (it's my job to conduct all EBoR for the entire district)? I have LDS members on my boards, usually. They aren't going to vote a unanimous board for an avowed gay candidate. I often have Catholic members, most of whom would not vote for an avowed homosexual. I use these men on boards because they've given their lives to Scouts and are passionate about what Scouts stands for. This is not as simple as "let the unit decide". The units belong to districts and councils. What happens at the council level for Friends of Scouting (the major fundraising every year)? No FoS $$ is going to come from an LDS unit to the council at that point.

 

 

If these men are so upstanding one would think they would be capable of judging a candidate under the BSA rules. If they can't do that...then I would wager they aren't such upstanding men after all.

[caroljenn]

 

 

This statement isn't true. See Snopes:

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/sexuality/girlscouts.asp

 

 

Yes, it is. Did you read the entire Snopes article? It says that while GSA does not have a national affiliation with PP, there are local branches of GSA that DO contribute to PP. Read the entire thing before you tell me I'm wrong just to be able to support your beliefs.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

Yes, it is. Did you read the entire Snopes article? It says that while GSA does not have a national affiliation with PP, there are local branches of GSA that DO contribute to PP. Read the entire thing before you tell me I'm wrong just to be able to support your beliefs.

 

I read the entire article. Where did it say local GSA chapters fund/contribute to PP?

[JennyD]

What unexpectedly good news. Thanks for the link! We had regretfully written off scouting for our boys, but if we could join a local troop that reflected our community's values, we will be first in line.

[LucyStoner]

Here is a good alternative to Boy Scouts. We have a local group which I would let my boys join if they were ever interested. So far they they are only interested in sports so it hasn't been an issue. http://www.campfireusa.org/

 

Campfire really varies by area. When we were mulling over if we should let him join Cub Scouts or not, one of the people a spoke to was the then CEO of the regional CampFire org and she stated she felt the local BSA had better options for boys than they did as there aren't a ton of the groups running around here due to low number of volunteers. She is a friend and knows my son. Here the CampFire groups are mostly girls and there are not very many of them. The orgs main role in the region has shifted and is now a much more charitable one one vs a kids outdoors club- groups help for kids while parents go to parenting classes, low cost/free after school care, family mentoring and similar. All commendable but not what we needed. My son wanted the all-boy thing, which for little kids has a lot of value, like Girl Scouts does for girls.

[Homemaker]

If people are so unhappy with the "no-gays" policy, why even mess with the boyscouts? Why not start a new scouting group? Why shouldn't the boy scouts have a right to say they believe it is a sin and they won't allow them?

 

I have a son who is too y

[Homemaker]

If people are so unhappy with the "no-gays" policy, why even mess with the boyscouts? Why not start a new scouting group? Why shouldn't the boy scouts have a right to say they believe it is a sin and they won't allow them?

 

I have a son who is too young right now, but we will not sign him up for boyscouts if they give in to this. Go ahead, flame away.

[Unicorn.]

Didn't UPS pull funding not that long ago, specifically because of the BSA's discriminatory policies? And the UU church we went to for years stopped sponsoring their Boy Scout troop when the BSA clamped down with policies regarding gay scouts/leaders and when they refused to approve the UUA's religion badge curriculum. The UUA isn't the only denomination in this country that is intentionally inclusive, and I suspect theirs aren't the only church groups that dropped Boy Scouts over this issue. At least some of them may be able to come back if the policy is changed.

The troop leader I spoke to a couple of hours ago was in a troop affiliated with our local UU church. I could hear him smiling tonight when he mentioned that they would be able to go home if this change does happen.

 

So does BSA not recognize UU as a religion, or is it just that they didn't approve their version of the religious badge? Just curious.

[Jennifer3141]

If people are so unhappy with the "no-gays" policy, why even mess with the boyscouts?

 

We didn't!!!

 

Why not start a new scouting group? Why shouldn't the boy scouts have a right to say they believe it is a sin and they won't allow them?

 

Why don't I start a new political party too while I'm at it??

 

The BS does have the right to chose their membership. And apparently, they are changing their minds. Why shouldn't they have that right????

 

You argue for rights on the one hand while denying them on the other. That's odd.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

Why don't I start a new political party too while I'm at it??

 

The BS does have the right to chose their membership. And apparently, they are changing their minds. Why shouldn't they have that right????

 

You argue for rights on the one hand while denying them on the other. That's odd.

 

It's not that odd. The same thinking is what made "separate but equal" seem like a reasonable solution for people of a similar mindset.

[Jennifer3141]

So does BSA not recognize UU as a religion, or is it just that they didn't approve their version of the religious badge? Just curious.

 

 

The UU charter recognizes civil rights and does not discriminate against gays. They have a 100% inclusive policy. Since BSA does not, troops were not compatible with UUA churches. According to the current BSA religion rules, UUA churches were wrong.

[Unicorn.]

Yes, they do recognize UU as a religion, and yes, they do have a religious emblem. It is the same "generic" protestant emblem that most of the rest of protestants use. And it is approved by the UU church.

 

ETA with more detail: It is the "Protestant and Independent Churches" emblem, orchestrated by P.R.A.Y. On the P.R.A.Y. website, you can see that UU has approved the use of this emblem for both the BSA and the GSA.

 

 

Thanks.

[bettyandbob]

If people are so unhappy with the "no-gays" policy, why even mess with the boyscouts? Why not start a new scouting group? Why shouldn't the boy scouts have a right to say they believe it is a sin and they won't allow them?

 

I have a son who is too young right now, but we will not sign him up for boyscouts if they give in to this. Go ahead, flame away.

 

 

I don't think BSA ever said homosexuality was a sin. I don't know the history, but I always thought the policy started during the early years of discovering some pedophiles in leadership, as a very inappropriate connection between pedophiles and homosexuals.

 

BSA doesn't get Federal funding so they are free to discriminate however they want. It looks like they've decided to change their stance, which they are also allowed to do.

[Murphy101]

Now Martha, your last paragraph interests me. You are right. I would not let my 13 year old son go camping with a girl and share a tent. However, is it a tempatation for a straight kid?? Or are you speaking as a parent of a theoretical gay child?

 

I have no idea if it is a temptation to a heterosexual kid. I don't think any of my sons are gay. For me, it is not just about temptation either. It's simply not acceptable. Whether my son or daughter is attracted to the individual in the tent doesn't matter. If I know they are attracted to the opposite sex, I'm not having them share tents with the opposite sex. Same goes for homosexual IMO.

 

Here's the thing. Just as there have been gays in the military since we've had a military, so there are gay scouts now. Pretending there aren't isn't helping anyone. When kids can be honest, it will be easier to make sure that no one has to be in an uncomfortable situation, tent-sharing-wise. It's tricky stuff, to be sure. But worth figuring out.

 

I didn't say to pretend anyone doesn't exist. BSA has never drafted boys against their will into their program and mandate they participate. Nor have they been called upon to join to help defend their country. Nothing like the military.

 

There is no reason any kid couldn't be honest. No one is forcing kids to join scouts. Lying to get into an extracurriculiar group is not exactly a point in favor of someone. :/

[Izzy]

If people are so unhappy with the "no-gays" policy, why even mess with the boyscouts? Why not start a new scouting group? Why shouldn't the boy scouts have a right to say they believe it is a sin and they won't allow them?

.

 

For the same reason black people fought for their rights to be equal.

[Murphy101]

BSA doesn't get Federal funding so they are free to discriminate however they want. It looks like they've decided to change their stance, which they are also allowed to do.

 

Indeed. And they are free to see many people/organizations leave because of that change. Or join too for that matter.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

This liberal will still not be down with supporting or having her son join (though he's at the top end of the age range for scouts). BSA believes that we, as atheists, are not capable of being good citizens or decent human beings. I wouldn't want them to have to touch my immoral dollars.

 

 

Hadn't heard the bolded. That's a shame.

[chiguirre]

You said:

 

My ds was never a scout, and dd was a scout for a short time until I found out that GSA gives money to Planned Parenthood.

 

 

GSUSA stated that the national organization does not have a relationship with PP and does not develop materials on human sexuality. They did say that local troops can choose to hold those discussions and collaborate with local organizations they choose.

 

I would maintain that your statement is not true.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

I have no idea if it is a temptation to a heterosexual kid. I don't think any of my sons are gay. For me, it is not just about temptation either. It's simply not acceptable. Whether my son or daughter is attracted to the individual in the tent doesn't matter. If I know they are attracted to the opposite sex, I'm not having them share tents with the opposite sex. Same goes for homosexual IMO.

 

 

 

I didn't say to pretend anyone doesn't exist. BSA has never drafted boys against their will into their program and mandate they participate. Nor have they been called upon to join to help defend their country. Nothing like the military.

 

There is no reason any kid couldn't be honest. No one is forcing kids to join scouts. Lying to get into an extracurriculiar group is not exactly a point in favor of someone. :/

 

You do realize that most boys join the scouts before they fully realize/understand/come to terms with their sexuality, right?

In the link above, an 18 year old is being denied his Eagle rank only because he came out. How does that one aspect of him suddenly make him unacceptable as a Scout?

[Murphy101]

You do realize that most boys join the scouts before they fully realize/understand/come to terms with their sexuality, right?

In the link above, an 18 year old is being denied his Eagle rank only because he came out. How does that one aspect of him suddenly make him unacceptable as a Scout?

 

Sure. And just like many people do every day they might reach a point where they feel for various reasons they are no longer suited to an organization they once liked or the organization is no longer suited to them. Such is life.

 

He is unacceptable if the BSA says he is because the BSA determines acceptability for awards their private organization gives.

 

I didn't click the link above. A private organization has the right to make memeber choices as they want and they have the right to give awards or not as they want. Him wanting it, even if he were the epitome of BSA, does not mean they have to give it to him. I might or might not agree with their decision, but my opinion doesn't matter because I have no right to tell that private group who they should be giving awards to.

 

From the other perspective, maybe they didn't give it because he came out. Maybe they didn't give it because they felt he lied about who he was prior to coming out. Since they clearly stated their views for some time, it shouldn't have come as a surprise to him to be denied.

[Jennifer3141]

I am trying really hard to be accepting of this policy change, and yet I am met only with contempt, called a bigot, a racist, intolerant, etc. by many in this thread. I like to think that I have earned a little credit in trying to bend outside my comfort zone with this policy change, and I would appreciate a little "tolerance" from others who so boldly espouse it, thankyouverymuch. I suppose when people are grown up enough to discuss these matters without the name-calling, then perhaps real progress can be made.

 

 

I am trying VERY hard not to do that and I'm sorry your feelings have been hurt, Karen. You are exactly the kind of person I hope the policy change does not drive away.

[Veritaserum]

This will potentially destroy Scouts as we know it. In our Council (just east of UT), more that one-third of units are chartered by the LDS Church (and a large number of the rest are Catholic). No way are they going to open units to this. I think we'll see the LDS pull out, with the Catholics close behind. We already have a parallel organizational structure with LDS and non-LDS units.

So, what we would do at the Eagle level (it's my job to conduct all EBoR for the entire district)? I have LDS members on my boards, usually. They aren't going to vote a unanimous board for an avowed gay candidate. I often have Catholic members, most of whom would not vote for an avowed homosexual. I use these men on boards because they've given their lives to Scouts and are passionate about what Scouts stands for. This is not as simple as "let the unit decide". The units belong to districts and councils. What happens at the council level for Friends of Scouting (the major fundraising every year)? No FoS $$ is going to come from an LDS unit to the council at that point.

 

Considering that the most up-to-date policy on homosexuals and the LDS church is that they are welcome as full members as long as they are celibate, I don't forsee the church pulling out. If the BSA changes its policy, it would match LDS church policy. While there are many Mormons who are uncomfortable with or opposed to gay rights, there is a growing number of Mormons advocating for LGBT people.

 

As someone whose children are being raised in the Mormon church, I would actually LOVE to see the church pull out and instead implement the boys' program it uses in other parts of the world.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

Sure. And just like many people do every day they might reach a point where they feel for various reasons they are no longer suited to an organization they once liked or the organization is no longer suited to them. Such is life.

 

He is unacceptable if the BSA says he is because the BSA determines acceptability for awards their private organization gives.

 

I didn't click the link above. A private organization has the right to make memeber choices as they want and they have the right to give awards or not as they want. Him wanting it, even if he were the epitome of BSA, does not mean they have to give it to him. I might or might not agree with their decision, but my opinion doesn't matter because I have no right to tell that private group who they should be giving awards to.

 

From the other perspective, maybe they didn't give it because he came out. Maybe they didn't give it because they felt he lied about who he was prior to coming out. Since they clearly stated their views for some time, it shouldn't have come as a surprise to him to be denied.

 

Red herring. No one is saying whether a private organization CAN discriminate. We are saying they SHOULDN'T.

And yes, we can tell a private organization what to do via monetary and moral pressure. Whether they listen or not is their decision.

[Guest inoubliable]

I don't understand what the problem is. You don't like thinking of gays having fun time? Don't. Don't want to be in a gay relationship? Don't. Don't want to marry a gay? Don't. Think your god won't be happy with gays? Don't be gay. (And if you are, find another god?)

 

If you're not gay, how does this even affect you?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

You know, name calling of any kind will only get this thread shut down. Not to mention destroy any chances of a rational, civil, thinking person's discussion.

 

It isn't name calling, and that is exactly the argument made by segregationists when they were on the ropes. Sometimes the truth stings a bit.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

I can see that it is futile trying to engage in a rational discourse with you regarding this policy change. I will leave you to your own bitterness and bow out of this discussion.

 

 

What rational discourse is really needed? You either discrimination against homosexuals or you don't. BSA is heading in the direction of inclusiveness which some us will see as a good thing, and others won't.

[Murphy101]

Red herring. No one is saying whether a private organization CAN discriminate. We are saying they SHOULDN'T.

And yes, we can tell a private organization what to do via monetary and moral pressure. Whether they listen or not is their decision.

 

 

You don't know what a red herring is then. You asked for what reason the man in the link could be denied his eagle rank and I stated it. I know what you are saying. I don't agree. I think private organizations can and should discriminate however they want to define their organization.

[chiguirre]

And yes, we can tell a private organization what to do via monetary and moral pressure. Whether they listen or not is their decision.

 

 

I think BSA is listening. Losing Intel, UPS and Merck's contributions probably influenced them. The LDS launching a web site to reach out to the LGBT community also probably influenced them.

[Unicorn.]

It isn't name calling, and that is exactly the argument made by segregationists when they were on the ropes. Sometimes the truth stings a bit.

 

"If this is done then (group X) will leave!" Yep. The same thing we have heard other times when civil rights have moved forward. The dying cry of bigots.

 

 

Actually, when you call someone a bigot, it is name calling. As someone who is fully supportive of the change, I think your attack on Kinsa is just plain rude. I appreciate her honesty, and respect her feelings and words. She may not agree w/ the policy change, but she isn't getting angry and threatening to leave either. I respect each person here who disagrees w/ my view of the policy. They are entitled to their beliefs, just like the gays and atheists who want change are entitled to thiers. Why do you feel a need to turn what could have been an eye opening discussion into attacks that will most likely get the thread shut down? I'm not saying not to disagree, or have an opinion. I'm just asking that you do it with some civility,please.

 

We are a family that is heavily involved in Boy Scouts: two Eagle Scouts, two Eagle candidates, two Cub Scouts, plus dh used to be a Scoutmaster.

 

I have mixed feelings.

 

On a personal level, I believe that homosexuality is a sin, plain and simple. I do, however, believe that homosexuals can live a sin-free existence (in regards to sexuality) by being celibate, just as any other non-married person can by avoiding fornication.

 

BUT~

 

My personal religious beliefs aren't what should dictate in this scenario. The wave of the land is equality for homosexuals, there's no denying it. I can kick and scream all that I want to, but it doesn't take a genius to see the trend in our society. And I believe that the BSA organization can see the handwriting on the wall, too. The times they are a-changin', and all that.

 

I have never agreed with denying membership to boys based on their perceived sexuality, if for no other reason than that teens are often confused about their sexuality and sometimes do change their orientation. As for adult leaders, I am MUCH MORE concerned about pedophiles in the BSA than I am about homosexuals.

 

In the end, I feel that there is SO MUCH that scouting offers, I will NOT throw out the baby with the bathwater. If the national BSA makes a policy change, then I am going with it. I might not 100% agree with it, but I think I can get on board with it for the sake of scouting overall.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

You don't know what a red herring is then. You asked for what reason the man in the link could be denied his eagle rank and I stated it. I know what you are saying. I don't agree. I think private organizations can and should discriminate however they want to define their organization.

 

 

And I believe they should face certain consequences (ie lack of funding) when others disagree.

Also keep in mind that it isn't like BSA just keeps to themselves. They recruit, promote, and put themselves forward as a beacon of moral behavior. That certainly opens them up to criticism when some us see their behavior as immoral.

[Jenny in Florida]

So does BSA not recognize UU as a religion, or is it just that they didn't approve their version of the religious badge? Just curious.

 

It's been a while since I read up on this, but as I recall, the BSA offers a badge or award called something like "Religion in Life." Scouts are supposed to work with clergy at their own houses of worship, following a syllabus or curriculum designed by the scout's own denomination and approved by the BSA. The UUA had worked with the UCC to develop a curriculum and submitted it to the BSA multiple times without getting it approved. I think there were sticking points both on the "gay thing" and because the BSA did not think the UUA/UCC curriculum went far enough in requiring scouts to profess belief in a divinity.

 

I think there was eventually some kind of compromise, possibly that allowed UUA scouts to work with their ministers to complete the requirements and have the badge awarded by their churches, rather than their troops? I'm sorry that I don't recall the details. There used to be a couple of websites devoted to following this controversy, but I think the UUA eventually just basically gave up and let the issue die.

 

Ah. Here's a link to the UUA's synopsis of the issues, including copies of the correspondence that passed between the denomination and the BSA: http://www.uua.org/r...ldren/scouting/

 

Edit: There is also a non-UUA-sponsored organization the Unitarian Universalist Scouting Organization (or something like that), which exists for the sole purpose of trying to work with the BSA to create religious materials acceptable to the Boy Scouts. I think they offer emblems/badges/whatever they're called, but, again, they are not actually affiliated with the UUA.

[Jenny in Florida]

Yes, they do recognize UU as a religion, and yes, they do have a religious emblem. It is the same "generic" protestant emblem that most of the rest of protestants use. And it is approved by the UU church.

 

ETA with more detail: It is the "Protestant and Independent Churches" emblem, orchestrated by P.R.A.Y. On the P.R.A.Y. website, you can see that UU has approved the use of this emblem for both the BSA and the GSUSA.

 

(Edited to change GSA to GSUSA? Is that the acronym for Girl Scouts? I have only boys, so I haven't really paid attention... LOL)

 

I've never heard of this one, but it sounds like it might work for UUs who happen to identify as "protestant." Many don't even identify as Christian, however, making this not a workable compromise for them, I suspect.

 

Edit: Looking at the P.R.A.Y. website, no, the UUA has not approved this curriculum. Instead, it seems to have been approved by the Unitarian Universalist Scouters Organization, which is not a UUA-sponsored group.

[Joshin]

On a side note, but hopefully relevant. The BSA operates under a Congressional Charter. Yes, I know these charters are mainly honorary and ceremonial. It has often come up, though, that a private organization operating with a congressional "blessing" really should not practice discrimination.

[Mrs Mungo]

The troops are allowed to make many of their own policies. Some troops have women leaders, some do not. To me, this is in keeping with BSA's policies on other matters. I imagine there will be little change for those troops chartered by churches. And, yes, it may mean that new guidelines come out to address BOR or other issues. BSA has been around long enough that they should be able to tackle these tough issues.

 

I hope that AHG does not sever their ties with BSA. It has been extremely fruitful for us. AHG, fwiw, does not require the girls to be professing believers.

 

I will say that I was raised in Camp Fire and there were gay leaders back when I was a kid. So, if you are looking to that as an alternative to BSA because you don't like the new policy, then you are barking up the wrong tree there. CF (which we may have joined, if there had been a council here) is fairly liberal and inclusive.

[Mergath]

Sounds like a step in the right direction to me, albeit a very small one. A shuffle in the right direction? Anyway, if this does go through, I'd feel comfortable actually giving them my money at public events. Up until now, they haven't gotten a penny. Our family refuses to support discrimination.

[albeto]

I have mixed views as a Catholic. RC view of homosexuality orientation is not as harsh as some might think it is.

 

Pope Benedict XVI says that gay people are “a concept of human nature that has proven defective,†that threaten the family, and are not “fully-developed†human beings.

 

Not fully-developed humans beings.

 

Sub human.

 

Moral leader to one billion Christians world-wide.

 

Harsh.

 

Tho open practicing of homosexuality is another matter entirey.

 

It's a matter of "grave depravity," which will apparently threaten society in ways that would make Godzilla look as vicious as a pet bearded dragon.

 

Because of that, I don't have an issue necessarily knowing someone struggles with SSA.

 

What conceivable "issue" could there be in knowing someone who is LGBTQ?

 

Perhaps by knowing a few people who happen to be LGBTQ, one might reject the erroneous, and embarrassingly outdated belief that they would be dangerous in close quarters.

[Lily_Grace]

I think it's a good thing.

 

I have a son in scouts. It was one of a few opportunities here for him to be involved without being in sports. And scouts has done amazing things for him. I could go on and on, but there's not point.

 

What I did want to say was that a practice of tolerance should not be shunned by any group. If the BSA is worried about the LDS church pulling out then the LDS church should reexamine their hearts and values. The proposed policy does not state a forced acceptance or throwing a party when the first openly gay scout walks through the door. The statement proposed is one of learning to live in a community of people who are all different and yet carry the same internal values. Our world is changing. It's that simple. 40 years ago issues thought about today would have been foreign. Heck, 40 years ago we were still working on civil rights for African Americans, the mentally disabled, and women. Our children have grown up in a world where homosexuality isn't feared. No one thinks they're going to 'catch teh gay'. Sexual orientation means less to our children than to our parents. They are realizing that 'morally straight' can be defined by many terms, depending on religion and personal values.

 

I do see changes coming to the BSA policies regarding camping, making them more in line with Venture/Varsity Scouts (which are co-ed). I do not have high hopes for this passing this year, though. Every few years the committee reconvenes and makes the same decision: no. I do hope that, with the military policy on DADT changing and working out the kinks, that the BSA takes their cue on how to proceed from those in uniform.