Help me think this through.... (parenting teens)

[fairfarmhand]

Long story here.

 

The first week of this year, we were off of school. Since we were on break, I allowed my dd to spend significant amounts of time in social activities with her friends. I thought it was a good chance for her to enjoy some social time that she ordinarily doesn't get. During that week, she spent several nights away from home, attended a couple activities. When she was home, she was pretty grumpy and crabby. I chalked it up to sleep-deprivation and being out of the ordinary routine.

 

First week back to school was last week. This was a busy week. We had homeschool group Monday, she worked Wednesday, 4H Thursday, Friday we planned on getting together with friends. Well, Monday, she was horrid, a pattern that she continued throughout the week. 4 out of 5 days she had several hour-long meltdowns about various things. Saturday, I allowed her to spend a few hours at a friend's home while I went grocery shopping.

 

Now onto this week. Monday morning, again crabby, complainy, argumentative. getting her to help out or do work is like pulling teeth.

 

She approached me last night about a get-together some friends are having Saturday to play games and hang out. Generally, I would not have a problem with this, since I know the parents and think it would be fun for the kids. However, in light of the sorry attitudes that are being displayed I am hesitating. This home is not close-by. If I can car-pool with another mom, I will have 80 minutes of driving round trip. If I can't car-pool I'm looking at over 2 hours of driving.

 

I explained this morning about my hesitations. She was defensive and claimed that she was not at fault for any of the recent attitude problems. She was grouchy because other people were grouchy. She was arguing because other people were "started it." She has bad attitudes because she was having a bad day/week.

 

I need suggestions. I am at a loss as to how to handle this recent mess. I need suggestions for more than this weekend. I don't believe that a kid should be able to behave however they want and still get to plan fun things with friends. But she does not understand HOW OFTEN she is a pain in the neck. I think she either believes that griping, complaining and arguing should not be that big of a deal or that she hardly ever does it.

 

I've considered some sort of carrot and stick deal maybe recording good days and bad days, but that seems so....juvenile for a 15 yo.

 

I struggle with committing to things for her because I never know if she's going to be terrible and I will feel that I have to punish her by making her stay home. I also feel that it is unfair to hosting families to cancel events at the last minute.

 

This child completely flummoxes me. I was a compliant, cooperative kid, even as a teen. WHAT HAPPENED? (I know the answer to that. I married someone who was NOT a compliant cooperative teen! In fact, he was the opposite) I am at my wits end.

 

(BTW, to people that she is not related to, this young lady is delightful. She works every now and then for my friend in a real estate office. My friend called last week and just oohed and ahhed about how great she was in the office last week. the 4H staff love her. Friends from church love her to pieces. If only she saved some of that pleasantness for home. It's like living with an over grown two year old.)

[fairfarmhand]

By the way, I know she is a great kid overall. We are not dealing with drugs, sex or boyfriends. She has a good head on her shoulders.

 

She's just a real pain to be around. Its unfair to the other kids to constantly have to listen to her tongue-lashings, complaining or nit-picking. It's horribly unpleasant for me to have a ten minute argument every time I ask her to pick up her socks, do her schoolwork or help out.

[Joker]

My teen dd is an absolute bear when she's not getting enough sleep, which happens everytime she hangs with friends overnight. I make her hit the bed earlier than usual on the night she comes back home. She used to argue but she even sees it herself now that I've pointed it out. I have to wait till the next morning to point it out because there is no reasoning with her once she's crabby.

 

Also, I've always thought I was such a good teen but my mom laughs at that idea. I was good in that I never caused any real trouble, but she says I had my own moments where I was just as crabby as my own teen.

[justasque]

I always look at crabby in a normally pleasant teen as a symptom. Tired, hungry, getting sick, hormonal, overwhelmed, over-scheduled, wrestling with something personal/social, etc.. I try to help the teen identify the root cause, and go from there. I rarely if ever punish teens. They will be making their own decisions in a few short years; helping them get experience with choice & consequences, including self-identification of personal/physical issues and the consequences to body/behavior/relationships, is work worth doing.

I've found that "Why are you so crabby" is not generally fruitful.

"I'm concerned about you - are you feeling tired? Getting sick? Did everything go OK at the party?" is a more useful/loving approach.

[Live2Ride]

Long story here.

 

The first week of this year, we were off of school. Since we were on break, I allowed my dd to spend significant amounts of time in social activities with her friends. I thought it was a good chance for her to enjoy some social time that she ordinarily doesn't get. During that week, she spent several nights away from home, attended a couple activities. When she was home, she was pretty grumpy and crabby. I chalked it up to sleep-deprivation and being out of the ordinary routine.

 

First week back to school was last week. This was a busy week. We had homeschool group Monday, she worked Wednesday, 4H Thursday, Friday we planned on getting together with friends. Well, Monday, she was horrid, a pattern that she continued throughout the week. 4 out of 5 days she had several hour-long meltdowns about various things. Saturday, I allowed her to spend a few hours at a friend's home while I went grocery shopping.

 

Now onto this week. Monday morning, again crabby, complainy, argumentative. getting her to help out or do work is like pulling teeth.

 

She approached me last night about a get-together some friends are having Saturday to play games and hang out. Generally, I would not have a problem with this, since I know the parents and think it would be fun for the kids. However, in light of the sorry attitudes that are being displayed I am hesitating. This home is not close-by. If I can car-pool with another mom, I will have 80 minutes of driving round trip. If I can't car-pool I'm looking at over 2 hours of driving.

 

I explained this morning about my hesitations. She was defensive and claimed that she was not at fault for any of the recent attitude problems. She was grouchy because other people were grouchy. She was arguing because other people were "started it." She has bad attitudes because she was having a bad day/week.

 

I need suggestions. I am at a loss as to how to handle this recent mess. I need suggestions for more than this weekend. I don't believe that a kid should be able to behave however they want and still get to plan fun things with friends. But she does not understand HOW OFTEN she is a pain in the neck. I think she either believes that griping, complaining and arguing should not be that big of a deal or that she hardly ever does it.

 

I've considered some sort of carrot and stick deal maybe recording good days and bad days, but that seems so....juvenile for a 15 yo.

 

I struggle with committing to things for her because I never know if she's going to be terrible and I will feel that I have to punish her by making her stay home. I also feel that it is unfair to hosting families to cancel events at the last minute.

 

This child completely flummoxes me. I was a compliant, cooperative kid, even as a teen. WHAT HAPPENED? (I know the answer to that. I married someone who was NOT a compliant cooperative teen! In fact, he was the opposite) I am at my wits end.

 

(BTW, to people that she is not related to, this young lady is delightful. She works every now and then for my friend in a real estate office. My friend called last week and just oohed and ahhed about how great she was in the office last week. the 4H staff love her. Friends from church love her to pieces. If only she saved some of that pleasantness for home. It's like living with an over grown two year old.)

 

I'm in your shoes...my teen pulls this. She now goes to bed earlier, takes a melatonin to help sleep, is not allowed a bunch of processed foods, exercises, and is required to be polite. She is welcome to take her meltdowns to her room. I also refuse to engage any of them. I simply turn and do something else after I've calmly reiterated whatever it is I had to say. And if she has particularly attitudinal day (of her own doing), she may find herself with a few extra chores to help her serve her family and she definitely won't be attending events outside the home until she can learn to respect her family....but that's just us. We've been firm on these and it seems to be working. She is more pleasant towards us now and can often be warned that she's taking the attitude too far. She'll check herself and normally take a break in her room for a bit. Oh and we do talk alot more now when she is calm. Attitude in teens is fairly common, but we feel that it does not give them a free pass to be rude to us because obviously they are polite to others away from home...

[fairfarmhand]

I always look at crabby in a normally pleasant teen as a symptom. Tired, hungry, getting sick, hormonal, overwhelmed, over-scheduled, wrestling with something personal/social, etc.. I try to help the teen identify the root cause, and go from there. I rarely if ever punish teens. They will be making their own decisions in a few short years; helping them get experience with choice & consequences, including self-identification of personal/physical issues and the consequences to body/behavior/relationships, is work worth doing.

I've found that "Why are you so crabby" is not generally fruitful.

"I'm concerned about you - are you feeling tired? Getting sick? Did everything go OK at the party?" is a more useful/loving approach.

see the thing is this. She;s not normally a happy cheerful kid. Most of her life she's been a step away from grouchy. Not always to this extreme, but she just has a negative, glass half-empty personality which I am hoping she will learn to moderate as she grows up.

 

I guess the frustrating thing is that she refuses to acknowledge the problem, so she sees my questions as stupid and treats me accordingly.

 

WRT to choice and consequences, I am trying to get it to sink into her that if she chooses to be unpleasant to the person with the car keys, that person is not willing to put themselves out for you.

[regentrude]

I always look at crabby in a normally pleasant teen as a symptom. Tired, hungry, getting sick, hormonal, overwhelmed, over-scheduled, wrestling with something personal/social, etc.. I try to help the teen identify the root cause, and go from there.

 

This.

For my generally lovely and pleasant DD, it is either lack of sleep, hunger, PMS, or stress about academic or social things - it is never "just" bad attitude.

In addition to helping her find and address the cause, it also helps *me* to see her behavior as a symptom of the above, instead of a deliberate attempt to irritate me.

[jen3kids]

By the way, I know she is a great kid overall. We are not dealing with drugs, sex or boyfriends. She has a good head on her shoulders.

 

She's just a real pain to be around. Its unfair to the other kids to constantly have to listen to her tongue-lashings, complaining or nit-picking. It's horribly unpleasant for me to have a ten minute argument every time I ask her to pick up her socks, do her schoolwork or help out.

 

 

 

Your dd sounds like my older ds. He's in public school, but his attitude/behaviour stinks at times.

 

I tell him once (and it's not everyday, thank goodness) when he starts.."You are going to want me to take you to..... That is not something I am willing to do for someone who speaks to me or others that way/complains about.../is rude/ doesn't listen, etc etc.

 

If he doesn't shape up, he doesn't go. He had to miss a wrestling practice because he couldn't keep his hands off some else's candy! What a ridiculous reason, but he has been pretty good since then (and that was before Christmas)! He even told his coach, who said, "Good for your mom. Behave yourself and get to practice."

 

When he's calm, I talk to him. I tell him how his actions/words make others feel. He doesn't often contribute to the conversation, but he does hear it. I compare his behaviour to what bugs him in other kids - he gets that! I also talk about how he's feeling and what he needs. Again, those conversations are usually one-sided, but at least he knows I am available to talk.

 

Prior to sleepovers (with all my kids), I have a conversation with them about what is expected when they get back (take a nap, if necessary or go to bed super early). And, if there is nastiness (I do cut them a bit of slack, but not much), don't even bother asking next time....

[fairfarmhand]

 

 

 

 

I tell him once (and it's not everyday, thank goodness) when he starts.."You are going to want me to take you to..... That is not something I am willing to do for someone who speaks to me or others that way/complains about.../is rude/ doesn't listen, etc etc.

 

 

I like this.

 

I like this alot.

 

My dh is so fed up with her that he's not even considering her Saturday activity if it were up to him.

 

I wish I had addressed this behavior when it first began. I feel so overwhelmed from three weeks of grumpiness that I know that is coloring my thinking.

[Live2Ride]

WRT to choice and consequences, I am trying to get it to sink into her that if she chooses to be unpleasant to the person with the car keys, that person is not willing to put themselves out for you.

 

Our dd's seem to be similar. I also agree with this. She will get it. It will take quite some time for these personalities to realize that what they do affects what they get to do...But hey, thats the way it works 'out there' too. I never lied for her. If she missed something because of her behavior I stated so. She didn't like it, but I told her I wouldn't lie for her to make her feel better....mean maybe, but she thought more about what she was doing.

 

Oh, and if she were mine...she wouldn't be going. Sit her down, explain that the behavior towards her family is unacceptable and that there will be some changes to help her to change her behavior and then implement them.

 

Hugs!

[I.Dup.]

OP, my oldest sounds just like your dd (although she is 4 years behind her). She is ALWAYS worse after social get togethers or sleepovers. Even after just spending time with friends she becomes more needy, more demanding, wants more, etc. We have had real problems after sleepovers or late nights. Like a PP said, we now talk to her before she is allowed to go anywhere about the behavior we expect when she returns. We also limit social get togethers so it doesn't get to be overwhelming since she can't seem to handle a lot of intense interaction. My dad was this same way. He loves people and loves to be the life of the party, but gets completely burnt out by being that way so easily.

[Annie G]

She obviously can control how she behaves- she seems to be delightful around others. Since this is a pattern, not a new thing, and you don't suspect any issues like a boyfriend or drugs, I say treat her like a child. She wants to make plans for the weekend- set some goals for her behavior. School work completed with minimal complaints and done thoroughly. Chores done without drama. Treating siblings right. Maybe you have to take it day by day- just get through ONE day. Then try another.

You have to let go about worrying that if you have to cancel her weekend plans that it'll inconvenience the hosts. Dd is old enough to be embarrassed that her poor behavior got her grounded from weekend activities- maybe following through will show her you're serious about changing the way she treats her family.

 

I had one like this- she's an adult now and although we survived it, the teen years were ROUGH.

[fairfarmhand]

OP, my oldest sounds just like your dd (although she is 4 years behind her). She is ALWAYS worse after social get togethers or sleepovers. Even after just spending time with friends she becomes more needy, more demanding, wants more, etc. We have had real problems after sleepovers or late nights. Like a PP said, we now talk to her before she is allowed to go anywhere about the behavior we expect when she returns. We also limit social get togethers so it doesn't get to be overwhelming since she can't seem to handle a lot of intense interaction. My dad was this same way. He loves people and loves to be the life of the party, but gets completely burnt out by being that way so easily.

what is so hard is that she craves being around her friends and if it didn't make her so difficult to be around I would be fine with that.

 

She simply does not see that her post-activity behavior is problematic.

[fairfarmhand]

She obviously can control how she behaves- she seems to be delightful around others. Since this is a pattern, not a new thing, and you don't suspect any issues like a boyfriend or drugs, I say treat her like a child. She wants to make plans for the weekend- set some goals for her behavior. School work completed with minimal complaints and done thoroughly. Chores done without drama. Treating siblings right. Maybe you have to take it day by day- just get through ONE day. Then try another.

You have to let go about worrying that if you have to cancel her weekend plans that it'll inconvenience the hosts. Dd is old enough to be embarrassed that her poor behavior got her grounded from weekend activities- maybe following through will show her you're serious about changing the way she treats her family.

 

I had one like this- she's an adult now and although we survived it, the teen years were ROUGH.

that is a good suggestion. I suppose it just floors me that I have to do this to a kid that is FIFTEEN!!!! I assumed we;d be past all this by now.

[jen3kids]

see the thing is this. She;s not normally a happy cheerful kid. Most of her life she's been a step away from grouchy. Not always to this extreme, but she just has a negative, glass half-empty personality which I am hoping she will learn to moderate as she grows up.

 

I guess the frustrating thing is that she refuses to acknowledge the problem, so she sees my questions as stupid and treats me accordingly.

 

WRT to choice and consequences, I am trying to get it to sink into her that if she chooses to be unpleasant to the person with the car keys, that person is not willing to put themselves out for you.

 

 

Oh my gosh.... that is my son exactly. My husband is so worried about his attitude and where it will take him in life.

 

I figure not everyone can be a bubbly optimist and that our kids are there to bring people back to reality sometimes. They are the ones that will take the high-flying ideas and make them fit within the parameters of real-life.

 

Don't get me wrong. It is draining to have Mr. Grumpy-pants in our house too. We don't have to put up with attitude and rudeness, but he certainly does not have to be sunshine and rainbows either.

[I.Dup.]

what is so hard is that she craves being around her friends and if it didn't make her so difficult to be around I would be fine with that.

 

She simply does not see that her post-activity behavior is problematic.

 

I know, my dd is the same way! It's very puzzling! I have no problem with times with friends either, she has a little girlfriend that comes over a couple times a week. That goes over okay. But going somewhere with friends, going to someone else's house, all of those things seem very taxxing on her. It took my Dad most of his life to realize that he needs to be careful with social situations because they wear him out so much. I used to be much more social as a child and now realize I just can't handle much of that kind of thing.

[fairfarmhand]

Oh my gosh.... that is my son exactly. My husband is so worried about his attitude and where it will take him in life.

 

I figure not everyone can be a bubbly optimist and that our kids are there to bring people back to reality sometimes. They are the ones that will take the high-flying ideas and make them fit within the parameters of real-life.

 

Don't get me wrong. It is draining to have Mr. Grumpy-pants in our house too. We don't have to put up with attitude and rudeness, but he certainly does not have to be sunshine and rainbows either.

thanks...I needed to hear that I;m not the only one to have a crank in the house.

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

 

I know, my dd is the same way! It's very puzzling! I have no problem with times with friends either, she has a little girlfriend that comes over a couple times a week. That goes over okay. But going somewhere with friends, going to someone else's house, all of those things seem very taxxing on her. It took my Dad most of his life to realize that he needs to be careful with social situations because they wear him out so much. I used to be much more social as a child and now realize I just can't handle much of that kind of thing.

yesterday, she was fussing about something and I told her very kindly (It was an effort to be sweet, so I was over the top with gentleness) "Dear, I think you should go down to your room, shut the door and pray about the way that you are treating me and your attitude today." she responded loudly and rudely, "My attitude is JUST FINE! I don't need to PRAY about it. IT'S FINE."

 

sigh.

[Amy in NH]

see the thing is this. She;s not normally a happy cheerful kid. Most of her life she's been a step away from grouchy. Not always to this extreme, but she just has a negative, glass half-empty personality which I am hoping she will learn to moderate as she grows up.

 

I guess the frustrating thing is that she refuses to acknowledge the problem, so she sees my questions as stupid and treats me accordingly.

 

WRT to choice and consequences, I am trying to get it to sink into her that if she chooses to be unpleasant to the person with the car keys, that person is not willing to put themselves out for you.

 

 

I think I would put a big (desk-sized) calendar on the wall, and let her know that every time she is being a jerk you will put a black mark on it. If she can get through the week with a minimum (you decide the number) amount of marks, she has "earned" time with her friends. Don't argue with her in the moment, just go over immediately and put up the mark. The first few times she will probably try to argue with you about the mark, which could earn another mark, imo. This will help her know exactly what she is doing that is jerky, help her "see" exactly how often she is jerky, and make sure she knows that she has to earn time with her friends by being able to get along with her family.

 

 

I had a cranky person in the house, and I didn't have to resort to this, but I would have done it if we had the socializing-time situation you do. I was about ready to tell him to get out when he suddenly turned around. He is easy to live with now, and does what he is asked without arguing or complaining (completely out of character!). I think it was puberty/maturity. He is still a negative person, but no longer hard to live with. Good luck!

[I.Dup.]

yesterday, she was fussing about something and I told her very kindly (It was an effort to be sweet, so I was over the top with gentleness) "Dear, I think you should go down to your room, shut the door and pray about the way that you are treating me and your attitude today." she responded loudly and rudely, "My attitude is JUST FINE! I don't need to PRAY about it. IT'S FINE."

 

sigh.

 

 

Ahhh, yes. My dd is in her room right now for a similar reason. Fun times!

[Amy in NH]

that is a good suggestion. I suppose it just floors me that I have to do this to a kid that is FIFTEEN!!!! I assumed we;d be past all this by now.

 

 

Nah. They're just big babies. It's like toddlerhood all over again, except the mistakes they make are much bigger~!

[I.Dup.]

I think I would put a big (desk-sized) calendar on the wall, and let her know that every time she is being a jerk you will put a black mark on it. If she can get through the week with a minimum (you decide the number) amount of marks, she has "earned" time with her friends. Don't argue with her in the moment, just go over immediately and put up the mark. The first few times she will probably try to argue with you about the mark, which could earn another mark, imo. This will help her know exactly what she is doing that is jerky, help her "see" exactly how often she is jerky, and make sure she knows that she has to earn time with her friends by being able to get along with her family.

 

 

The problem I have found with this kind of system is that these kids will push it until they get RIGHT to the point that you will take it all away, and once they've earned the black marks they will see no reason to have any good behavior anymore.

[fairfarmhand]

 

The problem I have found with this kind of system is that these kids will push it until they get RIGHT to the point that you will take it all away, and once they've earned the black marks they will see no reason to have any good behavior anymore.

 

that;s my fear. If she has nothing to work toward, she thinks what's the use. I;m just going to be a jerk anyway. (it's almost like she wants to punish me.)

[Rebel Yell]

I notice in the OP's sig the 15yo is 5 years older than the next child, and those next three are closer in ages.

 

(See my sig for my kids ages... you'll see where I'm coming from)

 

Could you possibly have a very nice compliant firstborn who has always been SO GOOD and obedient, and her horrible behavior is a reaction to very high/possibly slightly unreasonable expectations? Has Mom (maybe dad) been picking at her for every.single.little.thing she has done wrong, or not perfectly- but ignored all of the zillion things she is doing right and well? (voice of experience speaking, here.)

 

No- that doesn't excuse bad attitudes- but I find when I do more legitimate praise, the attitude disappears quite a bit. But when a "good kid" is always being punished for (in the grand scheme of things) minor transgressions- it can go very badly for the teen.

 

Make sure she gets recognition for all the good she does, and all the help she gives. Then, during a good moment- let her help you figure out how to make it work. Maybe this weekend is a bad idea due to time/travel. Maybe she can host a game night next weekend? No travel for her, and she has to help clean the house anyway- so why nopt have friends over after it;s clean?

 

(LOL- having friends over is the #1 way I get the girls' bathroom cleaned- it;s also the only guest bathroom.)

 

Good luck. If your family is anything like mine- the kids are at their worst when I am.

[Amy in NH]

that;s my fear. If she has nothing to work toward, she thinks what's the use. I;m just going to be a jerk anyway. (it's almost like she wants to punish me.)

 

If she has enough bad behavior to warrant losing her social time (or taking it right up to that point), then she has just been a jerk like always and nothing has changed. In the OP, she claims she doesn't think she's a jerk very often, so it is probable she doesn't always know what she's done that is annoying you. I don't see how giving her some real, visual awareness of her actions can hurt in this instance. Just an idea; take it or leave it.

[fairfarmhand]

I notice in the OP's sig the 15yo is 5 years older than the next child, and those next three are closer in ages.

 

(See my sig for my kids ages... you'll see where I'm coming from)

 

Could you possibly have a very nice compliant firstborn who has always been SO GOOD and obedient, and her horrible behavior is a reaction to very high/possibly slightly unreasonable expectations? Has Mom (maybe dad) been picking at her for every.single.little.thing she has done wrong, or not perfectly- but ignored all of the zillion things she is doing right and well? (voice of experience speaking, here.)

 

I do get your point, but my oldest has never been a compliant child. I do try my very best to balance out expectations.

[fairfarmhand]

If she has enough bad behavior to warrant losing her social time (or taking it right up to that point), then she has just been a jerk like always and nothing has changed. In the OP, she claims she doesn't think she's a jerk very often, so it is probable she doesn't always know what she's done that is annoying you. I don't see how giving her some real, visual awareness of her actions can hurt in this instance. Just an idea; take it or leave it.

good point

[JessReplanted]

see the thing is this. She;s not normally a happy cheerful kid. Most of her life she's been a step away from grouchy. Not always to this extreme, but she just has a negative, glass half-empty personality which I am hoping she will learn to moderate as she grows up.

 

I guess the frustrating thing is that she refuses to acknowledge the problem, so she sees my questions as stupid and treats me accordingly.

 

Have you read up on the personality types at all? I am a melancholy, and what you described is definitely one of the negative aspects of this personality type. I really believe that as parents, we have to help our kids navigate through their strengths and weaknesses, and help them develop coping tools. My parents had absolutely no idea why I didn't think or feel like they did, and they were always expecting me to just 'get over it'. Now that I'm raising a melancholy of my own, I realize how challenging it can be, but hopefully I'll be able to help my son learn to navigate through his negative thoughts and feelings. It's just something to consider.

[I.Dup.]

 

Have you read up on the personality types at all? I am a melancholy, and what you described is definitely one of the negative aspects of this personality type. I really believe that as parents, we have to help our kids navigate through their strengths and weaknesses, and help them develop coping tools. My parents had absolutely no idea why I didn't think or feel like they did, and they were always expecting me to just 'get over it'. Now that I'm raising a melancholy of my own, I realize how challenging it can be, but hopefully I'll be able to help my son learn to navigate through his negative thoughts and feelings. It's just something to consider.

 

 

What kinds of things do you wish your parents did? I am always talking to my dd about the fact that we don't have to let our emotions control our behavior, that we get to make the CHOICE to control ourselves even when we feel badly, that when we act badly we can feel even worse, that we have power over our choices and can direct our behavior in good ways, etc, etc.

[Dory]

I haven't read through all the answers and I don't have teenagers in my home at this time, but I thought I'd share what my mom did with me. I was a grumpy teenager. Definitely very moody. My mom finally looked at me one day and said that she understood that the teen years were hard and that a lot of things were happening that made it easy for me to respond by being grumpy. Then she told me that all the same, she expected me to have enough maturity to accept responsibility for my emotions and my actions. No one can 'make' me be a grump. They might make it easy for me to respond that way but it is still my choice, and until I was willing to be responsible for my own actions and emotions she didn't think I was ready to be out and about with friends so much.

It's not that her saying that suddenly made me a happy girl, but it made me own up to things a little faster which I think made it easier for me to learn how to deal with things and probably easier for everyone around me to handle.

[songsparrow]

I haven't read all the answers yet, although I'm sure you've gotten great advice here, I just wanted to say that I wouldn't refuse to take her on Saturday without first explaining to her what behavior needs to change, what type of behavior you want to see instead, and explaining that the consequence for not changing is not going on Saturday. After that, when the behavior occurs (and it will, it will take her time to learn to change it), I'd use jen3kids' reminder that "You are going to want me to take you to the get-together on Saturday. That is not something I am willing to do for someone who _________.". If she makes an effort to improve her behavior, then I would take her on Saturday.

[Lisa R.]

I've found that "Why are you so crabby" is not generally fruitful.

"I'm concerned about you - are you feeling tired? Getting sick? Did everything go OK at the party?" is a more useful/loving approach.

This approach does sound more compassionate. However, I wonder if we are then giving them ways to justify their behavior. Tired? Feeling sick? That must mean bad behavior follows.

 

It seems like maturity is learning to act properly in spite of feeling tired or stressed. I do object when adults act badly and then attempt to justiy this by saying, "Well, , I was just stressed out."

 

I'm just thinking out loud here. I do feel we need to be empathetic when our teens are having a bad time. It does seem, though, that when kids are pleasant to friends and outsiders but not family that it becomes difficult to muster lots of sympathy after awhile.

[fairfarmhand]

 

Have you read up on the personality types at all? I am a melancholy, and what you described is definitely one of the negative aspects of this personality type. I really believe that as parents, we have to help our kids navigate through their strengths and weaknesses, and help them develop coping tools. My parents had absolutely no idea why I didn't think or feel like they did, and they were always expecting me to just 'get over it'. Now that I'm raising a melancholy of my own, I realize how challenging it can be, but hopefully I'll be able to help my son learn to navigate through his negative thoughts and feelings. It's just something to consider.

I don't expect to change her basic personality. But one can be melancholy without being downright grouchy, rude and argumentative. I don't expect her to be sunshine and roses. I have one of those kids!!!! They have their own challenges. I don;t want her to be ecstatic all the time. I'll settle for civil.

 

I can get melancholy at certain times of the year. (winter's very rough on me) But I've learned coping skills. Getting out whether I feel like it or not ( I could easily be a hermit), working up a good sweat exercising, sticking to healthy foods all help me keep my life in balance. But I don't believe that just because a particular time of year is hard for me or I haven't been practicing good self-care that I should be entitled to be ugly to the family. In fact, I will go off by myself and cry or rant or clean to handle my grumps.

 

The problem that's making me batty is the refusal to admit that there is a problem. I make her exercise every day because it does help (generally) moderate her crankiness. However, she simply refuses to admit that she needs this because she doesn't see herself as cranky rude or argumentative. (Mom just makes her exercise because she's mean) It's nuts!

 

If she gets in trouble for grouchiness it's always because mom was in a bad mood, someone else got her into trouble, etc.

[Joker]

 

If she gets in trouble for grouchiness it's always because mom was in a bad mood, someone else got her into trouble, etc.

 

Older dd was always like this as well. The thing that turned her around was watching old home videos. :tongue_smilie: It was probably just a fluke, but there is one of her where she is not nice to her little sis and is even a bit manipulative to get her way. Another shows her upset at one Christmas because she didn't get something her sis got (it was a toddler toy :confused1: ).

 

She couldn't believe her own behavior when she saw it. She said when she watched tv shows or movies with characters who behave that way she thinks they're so horrible. She didn't magically change overnight but she did get better. Now, sometimes I jokingly tell her I'm going to pull out the old videos if she's being a grouch. I've even pulled out the video camera and threatened to film her being grouchy now.

 

Anyway, all that to say maybe she really doesn't get it and maybe you can find a way to show her how she's acting. My dd actually needed to see herself behaving that way to believe us, I guess.

[fairfarmhand]

 

Older dd was always like this as well. The thing that turned her around was watching old home videos. :tongue_smilie: It was probably just a fluke, but there is one of her where she is not nice to her little sis and is even a bit manipulative to get her way. Another shows her upset at one Christmas because she didn't get something her sis got (it was a toddler toy :confused1: ).

 

She couldn't believe her own behavior when she saw it. She said when she watched tv shows or movies with characters who behave that way she thinks they're so horrible. She didn't magically change overnight but she did get better. Now, sometimes I jokingly tell her I'm going to pull out the old videos if she's being a grouch. I've even pulled out the video camera and threatened to film her being grouchy now.

 

Anyway, all that to say maybe she really doesn't get it and maybe you can find a way to show her how she's acting. My dd actually needed to see herself behaving that way to believe us, I guess.

I;ve been very tempted to video, say, one of the other kids or the cat or something while she's having a meltdown so that she can HEAR her tone of voice.

 

I think my dd is like yours in that she can't see past her own viewpoint to realize how awful her behavior is.

[JessReplanted]

I don't expect to change her basic personality. But one can be melancholy without being downright grouchy, rude and argumentative. I don't expect her to be sunshine and roses. I have one of those kids!!!! They have their own challenges. I don;t want her to be ecstatic all the time. I'll settle for civil.

 

I can get melancholy at certain times of the year. (winter's very rough on me) But I've learned coping skills. Getting out whether I feel like it or not ( I could easily be a hermit), working up a good sweat exercising, sticking to healthy foods all help me keep my life in balance. But I don't believe that just because a particular time of year is hard for me or I haven't been practicing good self-care that I should be entitled to be ugly to the family. In fact, I will go off by myself and cry or rant or clean to handle my grumps.

 

The problem that's making me batty is the refusal to admit that there is a problem. I make her exercise every day because it does help (generally) moderate her crankiness. However, she simply refuses to admit that she needs this because she doesn't see herself as cranky rude or argumentative. (Mom just makes her exercise because she's mean) It's nuts!

 

If she gets in trouble for grouchiness it's always because mom was in a bad mood, someone else got her into trouble, etc.

 

I absolutely agree with you that being melancholy is not an excuse for grouchiness. I also think that there should be consequences for all of this negative, disrespectful behavior.

 

I also think that a melancholy needs to be approached differently than one of the other personality types though (in general, outside of this discipline issue). I know that for myself, I've had to practice at not seeing only the negative. I think that as parents we have the opportunity to give our kids the tools they will need to deal for the rest of their lives.

For example, I talk with my son about his thought patterns, how the words you choose to say influence your feelings, choosing to be intentionally thankful, and choosing biblical truth over feelings.

 

FWIW, I don't have teens yet, and I can only imagine how challenging that will be. What you had written about your daughter never really being cheerful just stuck out to me. :grouphug:

[fairfarmhand]

I absolutely agree with you that being melancholy is not an excuse for grouchiness. I also think that there should be consequences for all of this negative, disrespectful behavior.

 

I also think that a melancholy needs to be approached differently than one of the other personality types though (in general, outside of this discipline issue). I know that for myself, I've had to practice at not seeing only the negative. I think that as parents we have the opportunity to give our kids the tools they will need to deal for the rest of their lives.

For example, I talk with my son about his thought patterns, how the words you choose to say influence your feelings, choosing to be intentionally thankful, and choosing biblical truth over feelings.

 

FWIW, I don't have teens yet, and I can only imagine how challenging that will be. What you had written about your daughter never really being cheerful just stuck out to me. :grouphug:

thanks for this. I've had to learn the same hard lessons myself. I don't want her to get into the "Well, that's just the way I am, so everyone else can just deal with it" habit that I see so many adults fall into.

[Anne in CA]

 

Older dd was always like this as well. The thing that turned her around was watching old home videos. :tongue_smilie: It was probably just a fluke, but there is one of her where she is not nice to her little sis and is even a bit manipulative to get her way. Another shows her upset at one Christmas because she didn't get something her sis got (it was a toddler toy :confused1: ).

 

She couldn't believe her own behavior when she saw it. She said when she watched tv shows or movies with characters who behave that way she thinks they're so horrible. She didn't magically change overnight but she did get better. Now, sometimes I jokingly tell her I'm going to pull out the old videos if she's being a grouch. I've even pulled out the video camera and threatened to film her being grouchy now.

 

Anyway, all that to say maybe she really doesn't get it and maybe you can find a way to show her how she's acting. My dd actually needed to see herself behaving that way to believe us, I guess.

 

I was going to suggest a hidden flip camera to catch some of this behavior to call the girl out on her attitude. I think for some people with a more quiet personality being around non family members is fun, and they love it, but putting on their "act" of being super cheerful and friendly is very hard. They are depleted when they are done.

 

My oldest was like this as an adolescent it has become more subtle as she has gotten older, but it still crops up on her visits here. The real issue for my dd is a heart issue. She believes that the things she does wrong are always excusable, but the things other people do wrong are not. When dd was a senior she was nasty that I ignored her completely sometimes, because she would say that she did not think the rest of the family should be happy if she was not. BTW, she is 24 and wants to move home.

[FriedClams]

I don't have teens - so feel free to delete this!

 

I heard a great idea on correcting behavior with older kids. Make a list of everything that's a "good deal" to them and post it on the fridge. Friends, sports, movie, late night, etc.

 

When the attitude appears, you walk to the fridge and cross off an item.

 

No discussion. No fight. Cross it off. And stick with it.

 

I think it's a little extreme, and I might give them a warning, but I think sometimes a warning just means "obey me the second time". LOL

 

Hang in there. I was a terror as a 12-13 year old. I needed space. I am not lovey-dovey with my mom still, but I honor and respect and our relationship is good. Trust your gut, Mom!!

[saraha]

:grouphug:

I am listening in because I hae one who struggles to acknowledge her responsiblility in her bad behavior. I phrased that badly, but what I mean is that it is always someone else's fault. I wish I knew how to get her to take responsibility for her decisions and actions.

[Murphy101]

I have a couple like that.

 

I stop them immediately when talking rude and say, "You wouldn't speak to a stranger like that. You wouldn't speak to your coworker/classmate/buddies like that. We are family. We should get at least as much if not more consideration than any of those other people. If you can't behave at home, it makes me question if you can handle going elsewhere. So adjust your attitude or stay in your room."

 

Amazing how they manage to adjust their attitude. :/

[fairfarmhand]

I have a couple like that. I stop them immediately when talking rude and say, "You wouldn't speak to a stranger like that. You wouldn't speak to your coworker/classmate/buddies like that. We are family. We should get at least as much if not more consideration than any of those other people. If you can't behave at home, it makes me question if you can handle going elsewhere. So adjust your attitude or stay in your room." Amazing how they manage to adjust their attitude. :/

this is good.

The real issue for my dd is a heart issue. She believes that the things she does wrong are always excusable, but the things other people do wrong are not. When dd was a senior she was nasty that I ignored her completely sometimes, because she would say that she did not think the rest of the family should be happy if she was not. BTW, she is 24 and wants to move home.

 

that's the deal. The complete inability or willingness to look at things from someone else's point of view or the idea that she should be permitted to behave as she pleases without any negative consequences shows a total self-centeredness that sort of disappoints me. She's read "Do Hard Things" and likes to do things to help others outside the home. But doing the hard thing of being kind at home is beyond her.

[Chris in VA]

 

that's the deal. The complete inability or willingness to look at things from someone else's point of view or the idea that she should be permitted to behave as she pleases without any negative consequences shows a total self-centeredness that sort of disappoints me. She's read "Do Hard Things" and likes to do things to help others outside the home. But doing the hard thing of being kind at home is beyond her.

 

Just some thoughts, off the cuff--bear in mind my teens had major problems of the kind yours doesn't...

 

Remember that her brain is still developing, esp the part that regulates immediate gratification (can't think of the right word).

If you are asking her to reign in her feelings and be less reactionary, she may need a ton of practice and maturing before

she will get it right even some of the time.

 

Perhaps you could take "going places/social time" off the table and just let her do it, but pick something else that is still important to her as what will be at risk if she misbehaves.

 

Maybe go a day without correcting her attitude. If she gets grumpy and then gets reprimanded for it, maybe there's a cycle you can help break by not reacting. I know that sounds like she'd get away with something you don't want her to do, but just getting out of that cycle could be a start. You can't punish the grumpiness out of her; you can't control her internal attitude. But you can control yourself and choose not to live by your own feelings of being disrespected and hurt--sort of what you are asking her to do--not living on your feelings. Just a little bit of non-reactiveness might help break it.

 

Then you can work to rebuild the relationship. Parenting by relationship is hard work, harder than parenting by consequences and rewards/punishments. Certainly there is room for both, and is does a disservice to both the mom and the daughter to be extreme either way, but when you are trying to do an overhaul and "root work," the building up part is super important, even if she doesn't seem to want to be with you. And if she doesn't want to, why might that be? I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong. Just look really honestly at how you are reacting to her and see if you would want to be around yourself--are you correcting everything? Are you refusing to allow even the slightest moodiness? I'm not saying you should allow disrespect--sorry, I'm not wording this very well! It's something I work on with dd and wish I could have done with ds.

 

I guess I'm just saying try to break the cycle, along with the other suggestions.

[Durriyyah]

WRT to choice and consequences, I am trying to get it to sink into her that if she chooses to be unpleasant to the person with the car keys, that person is not willing to put themselves out for you.

 

I think this is really important. If anyone else in the world would refuse to take you somewhere because you're being a jerk to them, why should mom be any different? I think our kids expect us to be perfect and having unconditional love means they can get what they want, no matter what. Yeah right. If your friend would leave you someplace because you're talking to them like a crab, then I'm leaving you, too. Hopefully lesson will be learned. Since you're saying she doesn't see the problem with how she's talking, it sounds a bit immature, but I would ask her, "How would you react if I talked to you the same way you talk to me? Want to try that on for size?"

 

what is so hard is that she craves being around her friends and if it didn't make her so difficult to be around I would be fine with that. She simply does not see that her post-activity behavior is problematic.

 

Either she's in denial, or she thinks she has the right to act out however she feels whenever she wants when she's with family. I like the idea of a video. Do her siblings treat her different after she has a meltdown? Are there other ways you can point out the unacceptable behavior? Most teens want to be treated like an adult... well, a fellow adult would never stand for the way she is acting, including a spouse. If she wants healthy adult relationships in her home, she should start practicing now.

 

I;ve been very tempted to video, say, one of the other kids or the cat or something while she's having a meltdown so that she can HEAR her tone of voice. I think my dd is like yours in that she can't see past her own viewpoint to realize how awful her behavior is.

 

You know, I know Super Nanny is either loved or hated for the most part, but watching that with my DD when she was younger I think helped point out awful behavior and things she didn't want to do. I wonder if watching someone else fly off the handle would help her see how silly she looks, and how it affects those around her.

[Laurie4b]

Parent of kids 20, 18, 16, 14 here.

 

My teens all went through a period of time (about 2-3 years) when they had a lot of attitude. We tried to ride it out mostly. Suddenly, one day, they were back to the great kids we had had, but older.

 

When things escalated though, if I honestly analyzed the situation, I found that my behavior often contributed. (And still does.) I get irritated by the attitude, and respond in an irritated way. Or they are arguing and I participate by arguing back--KWIM? They do best when I can maintain some distance , remembering that they are hormonal, and not take it personally. That can be really HARD because they can be really provocative with their self-centered , know-it-all selves!

 

It has helped us to talk out of the heat of the moment. Sometimes, when things are in a bad pattern, we'll take the kid out to eat at a restaurant, so that it is a pleasant atmosphere, a treat, and in public (which keeps everyone speaking nicely!) Then we'll lay out a description of what we see happening, fess up to our part in it, and ask for solutions. We will also listen if our teen adds his own observations as to how we are contributing. Then, together, we come up with solutions.

 

All that is to say that I would try really hard to handle attitude issues at home at home, and not carry them over into your dd's social life. I think it's occasionally legitimate to say, "You are asking me a favor to drive you for 2 hours. In the big wide world, people don't do favors for people who are constantly rude to them. Sometimes I may do you favors anyway, but not this time. " In that case, it's a kind of natural consequence for the rudeness, more than a punishment. I don't think punishment is a good idea for teens in general, and I think punishing inappropriate interactions with parents by cutting out social life is asking for long-term trouble. I think it's better to use natural consequences, and alter your own behavior during the interactions. The solutions produced by family meetings are often very effective and tighten the relationship between parent and teen.