more Godparent drama....not good

[ktgrok]

So, I had emailed my priest (Episcopal) about my husband's choices for Godfather, as they don't attend church and are not, um...very into Christianity. But my husband really wanted them, so I just said they were currently unaffilated with a church but my husband considers them strong role models. She said that they need to be able to honestly make their vows at the time of the baptism, and gave a link to those. They agreed, and all was well. One in particular was VERY excited. The baptism is this sunday, today is the preparation class for parents and Godparents. Yesterday, at 5pm, I got a call from the priest. She said she was going over the church Canons and the things she had from the Bishop (we have a new Bishop) and that she is REALLY sorry to be doing this at the last minute but the Godparents really need to be "mature in the faith" and she can't go against what the bishop/canons say, etc. So....um, crud. He broke the news to them, and they were upset but asked if they can be science fathers if they can't be God fathers, lol. The bigger problem is we don't know any men that go to church regularly. NONE. His brother is a believer with a strong but childlike faith, but doesn't attend church right now, he has in the past. My son is not "mature" in his faith at this point, at 13 years old and questioning, and misses church often because he likes to spend Sundays' with his father. We had a friend that is a deacon in the Orthodox church but he went through some weird stuff and got angry with everyone about a year ago, and honestly is a bitter person to some extent. And my daughter's Godfather goes to church sporadically but does have a pretty mature faith. We could ask him to be my son's Godfather also but my husband feels he would view that as too much of a burden as he takes the role very seriously. Not sure how to answer that. My husband has family that would be perfect but they are all in Ohio and we are in Florida. Not exactly enough notice to get them down here for this sunday. And if we put it off the next time the church does baptisms is the Easter Vigil. Too long from now AND way way too long of a service for my two year old and my sister's youngsters to attend, in my opinion.

 

 

no idea what we are going to do, and it looks like he won't have a Godfather.

[Ellie]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[trinchick]

And my daughter's Godfather goes to church sporadically but does have a pretty mature faith. We could ask him to be my son's Godfather also but my husband feels he would view that as too much of a burden as he takes the role very seriously.

 

I didn't respond to your initial thread but I do remember it.

 

Based on your statement above, if your dd's godfather takes the role very seriously, I imagine he would be honored and touched by your asking him to serve as your son's godfather, as well. It sounds like it's something very important to him, which makes him the perfect candidate. Why not ask him, letting him know that you understand if he thinks mentoring/guiding two godchildren would be too much and see what he says?

[unsinkable]

I'd get on the phone with your DDs godfather and ASK HIM. Let him let you if he van handle it or not.

[Parrothead]

Can you have a godparent by proxy? My dd's godfather could not be present for her baptism. But he is her godfather. He sent his daughter to answer for him during the ceremony. Perhaps a proxy is allowed.

[ktgrok]

I'd get on the phone with your DDs godfather and ASK HIM. Let him let you if he van handle it or not.

I didn't respond to your initial thread but I do remember it. Based on your statement above, if your dd's godfather takes the role very seriously, I imagine he would be honored and touched by your asking him to serve as your son's godfather, as well. It sounds like it's something very important to him, which makes him the perfect candidate. Why not ask him, letting him know that you understand if he thinks mentoring/guiding two godchildren would be too much and see what he says?

 

 

 

I agree, but my husband is being a bit stubborn. He's not understanding, really, and is frustrated that his friends he chose are not good enough. He feels the church should accomadate the fact that people of his generation/status/occupation what have you are not generally church goers. I understand his frustration but as the more religious one in the family, by far, also understand the church's rules, and tried to prevent this issue in the beginning. I think I'm going to let him think on it a bit more. The priest is doing another preparation class on Saturday for another family, so if we come up with someone they can go to that class. And if we ask my DD's godfather he has already done a preparation class so might not need to attend anyway. So we have a little time. Very little.

 

meanwhile we will go to the one tonight with the Godmother, whom luckily is active in her faith.

[momofkhm]

I agree with the others about asking your dd's godfather.

 

Also what about men at the church you attend? My oldest's gp are my brother (he has faith but not mature) and a couple we know from dh's grad school days (strong Catholics). My middle's gp are the couple who led dh and I to Christ. My youngest's gp are a couple we met at church, that now no longer go to our church. There's no rule that says god parents have to be family.

 

My mom, brother and I once stood in for a baptism when I was like 13 for a family I at least didn't know.

 

All this is happened in an Episcopal church btw.

[Kathryn]

We recently left the Episcopal church. I'm frankly shocked that your priest initially told you that your DH's choice would be okay. At this point, I'd have three options:

1. Ask your far-away family and have a proxy stand in (this happens fairly frequently).

2. Ask DD's godfather.

3. Put off the baptism until Easter while you pick someone else. Episcopalians do not believe the baby will go to Hell if unbaptized, so not sure what you meant by it being too far way. DH and I were baptized on Easter and we had family sit with our then-3yo. They gave him candy and little toys to play with. He did fine.

[happi duck]

I would not like choosing a random guy.

 

Your chosen godfathers agreed to the vows. I'm sad that is not enough. I've known people to look at their faith seriously for the first time because they became a godparent. I hope your priest will reconsider.

 

Can you have two godmothers so that the church is satisfied with two 'official' godparents and then could the two godfathers still participate and be unofficial in the church's eyes yet still take the vows? Then your child would have two sets?

[Soror]

We have the same Godparents for all of our kids as we only have one set of good friends that are Catholic.

[Kathryn]

I would not like choosing a random guy.

 

Your chosen godfathers agreed to the vows. I'm sad that is not enough. I've known people to look at their faith seriously for the first time because they became a godparent. I hope your priest will reconsider.

 

Can you have two godmothers so that the church is satisfied with two 'official' godparents and then could the two godfathers still participate and be unofficial in the church's eyes yet still take the vows? Then your child would have two sets?

 

There's nothing for the priest to reconsider. In an episcopal church, the hierarchy must be obeyed. The priest cannot go against what the bishop says.

 

Traditionally (though not set in stone), the baptized baby has three godparents: two of the same sex and one of the opposite. It would be unusual for a boy to have two godmothers and no godfather.

 

This isn't a social affair, this is a Christian sacrament in a hierarchical, liturgical church. I can't imagine any Episcopal church I attended would allow the "unofficial" participation that you propose.

[ktgrok]

We recently left the Episcopal church. I'm frankly shocked that your priest initially told you that your DH's choice would be okay. At this point, I'd have three options:

1. Ask your far-away family and have a proxy stand in (this happens fairly frequently).

2. Ask DD's godfather.

3. Put off the baptism until Easter while you pick someone else. Episcopalians do not believe the baby will go to Hell if unbaptized, so not sure what you meant by it being too far way. DH and I were baptized on Easter and we had family sit with our then-3yo. They gave him candy and little toys to play with. He did fine.

 

I checked and we CAN have an absenttee godfather, so I just texted DH to let him know. I'm hoping he can pick an uncle that is appropriate, and all will be good. sigh.

 

 

ugh. He is still being obstinate. thinks the whole thing is ridiculous at this point, and why would be choose a godparent so far away,what if we die, how will they keep in touch with the kid, etc. Um, we are having the discussion via text, how about phones buddy. ugh. I give up for now.

[Catwoman]

I agree with your dh on this one, and would be livid that our personal choices weren't considered to be good enough. I would be quite insulted that our judgment was being questioned.

[jujsky]

What a total load of crap!!!!! I don't think you need to be part of that child's faith to be a godparent. If I was ever chosen to be someone's godmother and anything happened to the parent, I would make sure that child was raised in accordance with the parents' beliefs. If that meant taking the child to a church every Sunday for a religion I didn't believe in, I'd do it. I'm sorry you're going through this. Personally, I would tell the Bishop to go pound sand, and he has no say in who raises up my child after I'm gone. Stuff like this makes me mad :cursing:

[QuirkyKapers]

What do they consider to be mature in the faith?

[Kathryn]

What a total load of crap!!!!! I don't think you need to be part of that child's faith to be a godparent. If I was ever chosen to be someone's godmother and anything happened to the parent, I would make sure that child was raised in accordance with the parents' beliefs. If that meant taking the child to a church every Sunday for a religion I didn't believe in, I'd do it. I'm sorry you're going through this. Personally, I would tell the Bishop to go pound sand, and he has no say in who raises up my child after I'm gone. Stuff like this makes me mad :cursing:

 

Naming a godparent is NOT naming who will be guardians for your children in the event of your death. The church is in no way claiming any authority over such matters. A godparent is simply someone who promises to help your child grow and develop in their Christian faith. Therefore, choosing a godparent has everything to do with their faith. That's why the Episcopal Church requires godparents to be baptized Christians mature in their faith. If one doesn't like the requirements or teachings of the Episcopal Churh, there are many other denominations of Christianity from which to choose (which is what we did).

[beaners]

:grouphug:

 

I have one baptized child, and three that haven't been yet. The first was baptized in the church I attended, where godparents were expected to be a good role model who would ensure the wishes of the parents were followed if anything should happen. As a matter of fact, I don't know that I or my siblings even have godparents. My husband's experience was very similar, although godparents were more important as a person you want to be involved in your child's life.

 

The person that we want to fill the role that we both expect for a godparent for one of my children is Muslim. While it wouldn't have mattered for either of the churches we were raised in, it has mattered in the churches we have attended in the other places we've lived. So, we're just waiting to get it done.

 

We don't believe that unbaptized babies go to Hell, although apparently my MIL does, based on some recent hounding on her part. It's tough.

 

I hope it works out for you guys.

 

:grouphug:

[jujsky]

Naming a godparent is NOT naming who will be guardians for your children in the event of your death. The church is in no way claiming any authority over such matters. A godparent is simply someone who promises to help your child grow and develop in their Christian faith. Therefore, choosing a godparent has everything to do with their faith. That's why the Episcopal Church requires godparents to be baptized Christians mature in their faith. If one doesn't like the requirements or teachings of the Episcopal Churh, there are many other denominations of Christianity from which to choose (which is what we did).

 

 

The way I understood it, godparents and guardians were pretty much the same thing. I still think it's pretty stupid. You can encourage a child in the faith the parents have set out for them without being of that faith. Sounds to me like a religion that would lose a lot of supporters. If I was that religion and they tried to tell me what to do in regards of who could and could not be my child's godparent, I'd walk.

[AimeeM]

I agree, but my husband is being a bit stubborn. He's not understanding, really, and is frustrated that his friends he chose are not good enough. He feels the church should accomadate the fact that people of his generation/status/occupation what have you are not generally church goers. I understand his frustration but as the more religious one in the family, by far, also understand the church's rules, and tried to prevent this issue in the beginning. I think I'm going to let him think on it a bit more. The priest is doing another preparation class on Saturday for another family, so if we come up with someone they can go to that class. And if we ask my DD's godfather he has already done a preparation class so might not need to attend anyway. So we have a little time. Very little.

 

meanwhile we will go to the one tonight with the Godmother, whom luckily is active in her faith.

 

I'm not sure about the episcopal faith, but the same rules generally apply (though more strictly) in the Catholic church. One Godparent must be an ACTIVE Catholic (and must have their parish sign off on that they are active members of the parish), the second Godparent *can be* another Christian denomination, but must be an ACTIVE member of whatever that denomination is.

 

I would ask your dd's Godfather.

[AimeeM]

The way I understood it, godparents and guardians were pretty much the same thing. I still think it's pretty stupid. You can encourage a child in the faith the parents have set out for them without being of that faith. Sounds to me like a religion that would lose a lot of supporters. If I was that religion and they tried to tell me what to do in regards of who could and could not be my child's godparent, I'd walk.

 

Eh. The Catholic church has had even stricter rules regarding Godparents for a very long time and they're going strong.

 

And Godparents are NOT necessarily guardians. Not in our church. Our children's Godparents are elderly and are NOT who we have chosen for guardians. The Church claims no authority over who you choose as guardian. A Godparent's role is to guide your child's faith formation. Since I would want my child guided in the Catholic faith, it stands to reason that I want my child's Godparent to be Catholic (although I wouldn't be adverse to the second Godparent being Episcopal and we are considering doing just that with our youngest's baptism); how could they accurately guide them in our faith if they have no real knowledge of it... worse if they, on any level, do not believe in the faith themselves?

[ktgrok]

Naming a godparent is NOT naming who will be guardians for your children in the event of your death. The church is in no way claiming any authority over such matters. A godparent is simply someone who promises to help your child grow and develop in their Christian faith. Therefore, choosing a godparent has everything to do with their faith. That's why the Episcopal Church requires godparents to be baptized Christians mature in their faith. If one doesn't like the requirements or teachings of the Episcopal Churh, there are many other denominations of Christianity from which to choose (which is what we did).

 

 

exactly. The idea is you have godparents that are examples of the faith, someone your child can look to to see what it means to live as a Christian. Someone to encourage them to attend services, read the bible, grow as a Christian. The men my husband picked do not fit this description. They are moral people, but not going to give my son the reasons he should attend church, or encourage him to be confirmed, etc. And not people one could look to as examples of the faith.

 

The problem is my husband's idea of a Godparent is different than what I listed above, so we are just not reaching eachother.

[Kathryn]

The way I understood it, godparents and guardians were pretty much the same thing. I still think it's pretty stupid. You can encourage a child in the faith the parents have set out for them without being of that faith. Sounds to me like a religion that would lose a lot of supporters. If I was that religion and they tried to tell me what to do in regards of who could and could not be my child's godparent, I'd walk.

 

 

No, they are not the same at all. A guardian is someone named in a legal document to physically care for your children in the event of your death. A godparent is someone who promises to spiritually care for your child no matter what. The Episcopal Church *is* bleeding members, estimated about 1,000 a week, but not because of their stance on godparents. Out of the liturgical churches, they're actually pretty lax on the requirements. Orthodox, Catholics, and Lutherans all have to have a godparent from that particular denomination, while Episcopalian godparents just need to be Christian (though some priests may require at least one Episcopalian).

[ktgrok]

Eh. The Catholic church has had even stricter rules regarding Godparents for a very long time and they're going strong.

 

And Godparents are NOT necessarily guardians. Not in our church. Our children's Godparents are elderly and are NOT who we have chosen for guardians. The Church claims no authority over who you choose as guardian. A Godparent's role is to guide your child's faith formation. Since I would want my child guided in the Catholic faith, it stands to reason that I want my child's Godparent to be Catholic (although I wouldn't be adverse to the second Godparent being Episcopal and we are considering doing just that with our youngest's baptism); how could they accurately guide them in our faith if they have no real knowledge of it... worse if they, on any level, do not believe in the faith themselves?

 

 

yes, this is the issue. (and in the Episcopal church the godparents don't have to be Episcopal, but active members of any Christian church)

[Mama Geek]

Just wanted to give some :grouphug: . Sometimes differences in religious beliefs between spouses can be tough. Even though both dh and I came from the same church background, he spent his first years up to maybe 7 or 8 in a much different church. It has caused issues at times and there aren't any easy solutions.

[Zebra]

I agree with your dh on this one, and would be livid that our personal choices weren't considered to be good enough. I would be quite insulted that our judgment was being questioned.

 

 

Me too.

 

Things like this are exactly why I left organized religion. I am an adult who can make my own decisions about things like godparents.

 

BUT, if you want to go to their church, you must follow their rules.

[AK_Mom4]

Why not have the child baptized with just one Godparent? There is certainly nothing in the canons that says that the child absolutely MUST have two or they can't be baptised? Gosh, some kids get baptised without any Godparents at all and it still counts! (and yes, I'm Episcopal).

 

Then have a private celebration where the gentlemen your DH chose make the appropriate promises as Sponsors (you can use the ones in the prayer book as guidelines) that are witnessed by your family. Throw a big party if you like!

 

The thing about being a sponsor is that the sponsors make some specific promises in front of others to help raise the child to the best of their ability. Since these are secular gentlemen, it's probably appropriate to have a secular ceremony to celebrate this event.

[MIch elle]

My dc were both baptised in the Episcopal Church with NO Godparents. The rector NEVER asked us about Godparents.

 

The Episcopal priests that I've served under (as a member of vestry and as senior warden) don't always follow the canons.

[ktgrok]

Why not have the child baptized with just one Godparent? There is certainly nothing in the canons that says that the child absolutely MUST have two or they can't be baptised? Gosh, some kids get baptised without any Godparents at all and it still counts! (and yes, I'm Episcopal).

 

Then have a private celebration where the gentlemen your DH chose make the appropriate promises as Sponsors (you can use the ones in the prayer book as guidelines) that are witnessed by your family. Throw a big party if you like!

 

The thing about being a sponsor is that the sponsors make some specific promises in front of others to help raise the child to the best of their ability. Since these are secular gentlemen, it's probably appropriate to have a secular ceremony to celebrate this event.

 

 

 

We may do just that. We don't need Godparents at all really. But wanted them. The gentlemen in question asked if they can be "Sciencparents" instead of Godparents, lol.

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm surprised at the number of people who are shocked or upset that Katie and her husband are being asked to follow the rules, honestly. I'm not Episcopalian, but I totally get why a denomination would require godparents -- whose job is not a legal responsibility, but a religious one -- to follow their religion's rules.

 

This is not to say that I'm not sympathetic, Katie. I know this is causing you stress, especially since you and your husband aren't on the same page, religiously. I know how frustrating it is to think you're worked out a compromise or understanding with your clergy only to have the rug pulled out from underneath you. I get it. I really, really do.

 

What I don't get is the outrage from others about the expectation that a denomination's clergy would be enforcing its rules and expectations?

[Jenny in Florida]

The way I understood it, godparents and guardians were pretty much the same thing. I still think it's pretty stupid. You can encourage a child in the faith the parents have set out for them without being of that faith. Sounds to me like a religion that would lose a lot of supporters. If I was that religion and they tried to tell me what to do in regards of who could and could not be my child's godparent, I'd walk.

 

 

The Anglican church has been around for several centuries, now, and I suspect it'll outlast any of us here at the moment.

 

In any case, no, standing in front of a church's congregation and promising to help guide a child in one's chosen faith is not the same as being named a legal guardian in a will. Religious and legal responsibilities are quite different.

[SunnyDays]

I agree that if you are a member/active participant in a particular church, you're somewhat agreeing to follow their rules and policies. It may seem strange or unfair that the restrictions are in place, but regardless, they're there.

 

We're approaching this a little differently... we attended a non denominational church when my son was a baby, and he had an infant dedication ceremony rather than a baptism. To later be confirmed in the Lutheran church, he will also be baptized, as will my husband when we become members. (I was baptized Lutheran as an infant.) Most people in our denomination do choose godparents, or sponsors as they're called at our church. We will not because DS will be older at baptism, and we do have the freedom to make that choice. But, all that to say, all denominations handle things a little differently, and there are certain rules in our current denomination that we agree to abide by when we become members, are baptized, etc.

 

Katie, I do hope you're able to get something worked out. :grouphug: I know how frustrating it is when you're told one thing, then someone comes along at the last minute and says something different. I think either your DD's godfather or a faraway uncle (by proxy) are both good bets for you!!

[beaners]

I don't think godparents being guardians is particularly unusual either though. Our pastor made a point of saying that we needed a legal document like a will for guardianship, because the ceremony wouldn't be proof of that if it was what we wanted. It's clear that there are very different expectations depending on your background.

[LaughingCat]

If you do pick a faraway uncle - perhaps you could ask if the nearby friends that don't fit the requirements could be the proxies and possibly be acknowledged in the ceremony in some way.

 

I personally am all for going with someone who will actually be there for the child rather than just finding someone who fits the rules - since what good is a godparent you never have any contact with no matter how well they fit the rules? (speaking from personal experience - since I was 1 year old).

[Kathryn]

 

 

 

We may do just that. We don't need Godparents at all really. But wanted them. The gentlemen in question asked if they can be "Sciencparents" instead of Godparents, lol.

 

 

I understand this. When we had our boys baptized, we didn't have any Christian friends to ask. We could have had none, but went out on a limb and asked a couple at our church who we respected. If they had said no, we would have just not had any for them, but I really wanted them to have godparents.

[ktgrok]

I'm surprised at the number of people who are shocked or upset that Katie and her husband are being asked to follow the rules, honestly. I'm not Episcopalian, but I totally get why a denomination would require godparents -- whose job is not a legal responsibility, but a religious one -- to follow their religion's rules.

 

This is not to say that I'm not sympathetic, Katie. I know this is causing you stress, especially since you and your husband aren't on the same page, religiously. I know how frustrating it is to think you're worked out a compromise or understanding with your clergy only to have the rug pulled out from underneath you. I get it. I really, really do.

 

What I don't get is the outrage from others about the expectation that a denomination's clergy would be enforcing its rules and expectations?

 

 

Thanks Jenny.

[happi duck]

I'm surprised at the number of people who are shocked or upset that Katie and her husband are being asked to follow the rules, honestly. I'm not Episcopalian, but I totally get why a denomination would require godparents -- whose job is not a legal responsibility, but a religious one -- to follow their religion's rules.

 

This is not to say that I'm not sympathetic, Katie. I know this is causing you stress, especially since you and your husband aren't on the same page, religiously. I know how frustrating it is to think you're worked out a compromise or understanding with your clergy only to have the rug pulled out from underneath you. I get it. I really, really do.

 

What I don't get is the outrage from others about the expectation that a denomination's clergy would be enforcing its rules and expectations?

 

 

Speaking for myself, coming from an infant baptism background, being a godparent myself, and having chosen godparents for my kids...

 

Shock: I am surprised that a willingness to take the vows and encourage the child to pursue a life of faith is not enough. (Especially when it was previously okay-ed.)

 

Upset: Imho, some of the posts feel harsh. To me, it seems like encouraging the father of the child would carry more weight than a subjective rule.

[AimeeM]

 

Speaking for myself, coming from an infant baptism background, being a godparent myself, and having chosen godparents for my kids...

 

Shock: I am surprised that a willingness to take the vows and encourage the child to pursue a life of faith is not enough. (Especially when it was previously okay-ed.)

 

Upset: Imho, some of the posts feel harsh. To me, it seems like encouraging the father of the child would carry more weight than a subjective rule.

A general life of faith isn't what we (personal "we", as in me and my family) are after - we want them raised in our church and our faith (Catholic in our case). Having a Godparent that would simply encourage the child to go to *a* church isn't what we're after. I can't speak for the episcopal church, but that may be what they're after (as a whole) too.

I think some of the harshness is actually just disbelief. When you join a church, you agree to their rules, at least when involving the whole church in something (like a baptism within said church). You can't just change the rules of a church that has been around for a very, very long time because you don't like at the moment.

I could be misreading what you said though.

[Ellie]

I agree with your dh on this one, and would be livid that our personal choices weren't considered to be good enough. I would be quite insulted that our judgment was being questioned.

 

 

But you can't just make up your own rules. The church has very clearly defined who may be godparents. How could someone in good conscience lie about something like that? (which is what the OP would have to do: say that the men her dh wanted are faithful members of her church, when they are not. Both men even agree that they are not practicing that faith and are not offended that they are not allowed to be godparents.)

[AimeeM]

 

But you can't just make up your own rules. The church has very clearly defined who may be godparents. How could someone in good conscience lie about something like that? (which is what the OP would have to do: say that the men her dh wanted are faithful members of her church, when they are not. Both men even agree that they are not practicing that faith and are not offended that they are not allowed to be godparents.)

 

Does the episcopal church have rules similar to the Catholic church? Here, there is no lying - the potential Godparents need a signed form from their parish stating that they are active members of the parish to even be considered as Godparents.

[ktgrok]

Does the episcopal church have rules similar to the Catholic church? Here, there is no lying - the potential Godparents need a signed form from their parish stating that they are active members of the parish to even be considered as Godparents.

 

Theorectically, yes. But most of the time the priests do not actually ask for a letter.

[AimeeM]

 

Theorectically, yes. But most of the time the priests do not actually ask for a letter.

Ah. We had to turn ours in before scheduling the baptism.

[dakarimom5]

I'm not sure about the episcopal faith, but the same rules generally apply (though more strictly) in the Catholic church. One Godparent must be an ACTIVE Catholic (and must have their parish sign off on that they are active members of the parish), the second Godparent *can be* another Christian denomination, but must be an ACTIVE member of whatever that denomination is.

 

I would ask your dd's Godfather.

 

 

And this is why my DD only has a Godmother. The whole thing is worse on me because my uncle is the priest doing the baptizing. He keeps knocking out family members who aren't "good enough" to be godparents.

 

And my uncle feels he can change his mind on people as godparents depending on whose child he is baptizing. I'm so glad I'm done with the whole thing now.