SOCIAL GROUP: Discussing Progressive Christianity

[Jenny in Florida]

Update: After a few days of talking, it seems there is a need to clarify what is meant by the term "Progressive Christianity" in the title of this thread. Although everyone who has an interest is welcome to participate, I'm going to ask that those who wish to come in and chat recognize that our conversation here begins with the following definition:

 

By calling ourselves progressive, we mean we are Christians who…

 

1. Believe that following the path and teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness and experience of the Sacred and the Oneness and Unity of all life;

2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom in our spiritual journey;

3. Seek community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to:

• Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
  
• Believers and agnostics,
  
• Women and men,
  
• Those of all sexual orientations and gender identities,
  
• Those of all classes and abilities;
  

4. Know that the way we behave towards one another is the fullest expression of what we believe;

5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning than in absolutes;

6. Strive for peace and justice among all people;

7. Strive to protect and restore the integrity of our Earth;

8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love.

 

This statement comes from the website for the Center for Progressive Christianity (www.progressivechristianity.org). It's not a "statement of faith," just as good a place to start as any. It's not required that you completely accept every idea in order to come in here and chat, but I'd ask that posters be respectful of the fact that these ideas do resonate for many (most?) of the folks here.

 

Thanks!

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

(Original post begins here.)

 

Well, here it is, the "official" thread.

 

I know some of us started talking a little about our paths on the other thread, but let's start fresh here, to keep it all in one place.

 

I'll spare you all the gory details I was typing out a minute ago and just give you the short version of "where I am now." I was not raised in a religious household, considered myself an athiest until adulthood, when I finally moved the pointer in my head to "agnostic." I found Unitarian Universalism while still in college and chose it because it was the one denomination I could find that didn't expect me to pay lip service to anything I wasn't sure I believed. Over the following couple of decades, I found myself wanting more than the UUs were providing me, and I kept reading and researching. I knew I wasn't a Christian in any sense I'd ever heard. My kids have both sung with an Episcopal choir, and we've attended lots of services at the cathedral and at other churches of various denominations when the kids sang. And, while I love the music and the ritual and the beauty of many of those services, I always get squirmy at the words and the theology.

 

Also, I'm pretty liberal, politically and socially. And the impression I've had is that I would never fit in with the Christian crowd.

 

But I've always loved the Jesus story, and I've found over the last decade or so that I felt more and more resonance there. If I could just ignore the whole supernatural aspect, it truly spoke to me, called to me, fascinated me. Then, not that long ago, I had this sudden shift in thinking, and it hit me that the whole thing -- miraculous birth, son of a divinity, resurrection -- could be read as a metaphor. It didn't have to be literal.

 

Of course, when I tried to explain this to my husband and daughter, they both shook their heads and laughed at me a little. As I recall, I think my daughter said, basically, "Yeah, I don't think that's a thing people believe, Mom."

 

But I kept playing with the idea in my head, continuing to read and research, and I eventually stumbled across the label "Progressive Christianity." It seems, from what I can tell, like a term used to describe a variety of ideas and beliefs. But I've been delighted to find that some of the folks wearing that label have a lot of overlap with my own leanings.

 

It's just incredibly exciting to find books and websites and podcasts of sermons that make me throw my hands in the air and yell, "Yes!" Things that feed my brain and my heart and soul.

 

Now, I'm on a quest to find a local congregation that is talking about the same ideas.

 

In the meantime, here are a few of the resources I'm finding especially meaningful:

 

- Books by Bart D. Ehrman. I've just finished listening to the audio version of Did Jesus Exist? I have Misquoting Jesus on the shelf but hadn't gotten around to reading it. So, I think that one is next.

- Books by Karen Armstrong, especially her Spiral Staircase: My Climb Out of Darkness.

- Podcasts of sermons from two churches:

https://itunes.apple...ice/id266768003 and https://itunes.apple...ons/id419225485

 

I'm looking forward to reading what others are thinking, feeling, reading and exploring!

[milovany]

Welcome to your new thread! :)

 

If we get crossover because of our similar post titles, we'll have to gently guide each other back to our respective corners of the universe, eh? ;) Blessings to you on your journey(s)!!

[Parrothead]

Welcome to your new thread! :)

 

If we get crossover because of our similar post titles, we'll have to gently guide each other back to our respective corners of the universe, eh? ;) Blessings to you on your journey(s)!!

I'll admit to being the first victim of confusion. I'd wondered where the blue star disappeared to, and why the OP wasn't making much sense. Perhaps a slight change in title will help.

[milovany]

Oh, dear, and that's mostly my fault as I suggested the SOCIAL GROUP: beginning to the thread. My apologies, Jenny! I flubbed up your nice new thread. Maybe Chucki's onto something with changing the group name just a week bit. Maybe even just Progressive Christianity. It's probably the "Exploring" that will catch people at first. Just a thought!

[Snow]

I'm so excited to have this thread! I don't have a church and no one in my family is a practicing Christian so very few people to talk about these things with.

[Snow]

Oh, dear, and that's mostly my fault as I suggested the SOCIAL GROUP: beginning to the thread. My apologies, Jenny! I flubbed up your nice new thread. Maybe Chucki's onto something with changing the group name just a week bit. Maybe even just Progressive Christianity. It's probably the "Exploring" that will catch people at first. Just a thought!

 

Maybe Discussing progressive Christianity? Or just Progressive Christianity?

[MIch elle]

Marcus Borg, along with others, is one of the leaders of the progressive Christian movement. I've read Marcus Borg's Meeting Jesus for the First Time, and The Heart of Christianity many years ago. I'm currently reading his latest book, Evolution of the Word. Marcus Borg is a practicing Episcopalian (the last I've heard).

 

I'm leading a book/dvd discussion series on Embracing an Adult Fatih, Marcus Borg on What it Means to Be a Christian starting next Friday at my church. We did Embracing a Life of Meaning with Kathleen Norris this past fall. I highly recommend both of these!

 

If you like Marcus Borg you will like "Living the Questions". Marcus Borg recommends it on his website: http://www.marcusjborg.com/resources/

 

I'm not familiar with Karen Armstrong; I'll look at her books.

[*Lulu*]

I have had Borg sitting on my shelf for over a year now. I think when I finish the Enns book I am reading I will tackle Borg next.

 

I am looking forward to reading this thread as it grows!

[Onceuponatime]

I am interested in being part of this thread/discussion, even though I haven't seen the original thread. Could you point me in that direction?

 

I didn't even know that what I was interested in is called "progressive Christianity" until a few months ago.

 

I've read these books:

 

Karen Armstrong-

The Battle for God

The History of God

The Bible

In the Beginning

Holy War (not finished)

 

Bart Ehrman-

Misquoting Jesus

Lost Christianities

 

Marcus Borg-

The Last Week (with JDC)

The First Christmas (with JDC)

Jesus

Putting Away Childish Things

Speaking Christian

The First Paul

The Heart of Christianity

 

John Dominic Crossan-

The Greatest Prayer

God and Empire

 

Timothy Beal-

The Rise and Fall of the Bible

 

Other books I found fascinating-

The Sisters of Sinai

Before the Flood

God's Universe

The Language of God

How to read the Bible Then and Now (This is the book that started it all for me.)

 

I've also read other books that would be considered more mystical and new age.

 

I'll post more about my own journey in a little while. I'm supposed to be reading to my kids right now. :-)

[Veritaserum]

I downloaded Meeting Jesus for the First Time on my Kindle last night. I was raised Mormon/LDS and was a practicing member until a couple of months go. Mormon theology is very black-and-white in practice. For a few years (since the Prop 8 fight in CA) I tried to reconcile what I believed about a loving God and the hate I saw from people professing to follow Him. While there are many aspects of LDS doctrine that I like and even believe, I can't accept and practice the religion wholesale or "all in" the way that I'm expected and pressured to.

 

The patriarchal structure of the church and the resulting subordinate position of women is a major factor in why I no longer attend. I also have concerns about events, practices, and doctrines in early Mormon history as well as the temple rites. I feel like the LDS church has built hedges around Jesus and the simplicity of what He taught: Love one another. There was no list of exceptions: women, gays, or anyone who is different from you.

 

I'm going to start attending a Unitarian Church because I'm not interested in being told what to believe right now. I know that I crave a community of others actively seeking an evolving, egalitarian, loving, and inclusive view of Christianity/God.

[Caroline]

For a few years (since the Prop 8 fight in CA) I tried to reconcile what I believed about a loving God and the hate I saw from people professing to follow Him. While there are many aspects of LDS doctrine that I like and even believe, I can't accept and practice the religion wholesale or "all in" the way that I'm expected and pressured to.

 

 

I'm going to start attending a Unitarian Church because I'm not interested in being told what to believe right now. I know that I crave a community of others actively seeking an evolving, egalitarian, loving, and inclusive view of Christianity

 

 

Other than the fact that I have never been LDS, this is how I feel. It's the hatred I don't like and don't believe. I don't buy the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" argument. When a local minister loaded his congregations onto buses to vote on an anti-gay resolution, I decided I was done with Southern Christianity. (I had left that church a few years earlier when he cancelled a high school baccalaureate service with two days notice because there was going to be a Jewish prayer. Same minister said a Jewish prayer couldn't be said from his pulpit because it was only for preaching and praying about Christ.) I grew up with the attitude that the church is the people. That is where I want to be.

[elegantlion]

I've pondering what to write here all morning. Not sure how to define what I believe right now, except to state what I DON'T believe. Maybe I'll keep it short for now. My wavering isn't with God as much as with religion. If we are children of God, we are all children of God. Trying to be tactful while saying what I mean....I believe God loves us unconditionally, where we are, for who we are. If King David can be " a man after God's heart" then I see a lot more leeway in God's love for us. I don't see God as someone who says you must show me you love me before I can return the favor. It's like seeing your child for the first time and knowing you have this wonderful created being and you'd do anything for it. It does nothing in return except be. A child's essence is enough to extend unconditional love.

 

That's the beginning. I don't see God as just a christian God, so maybe I'm not right for this thread for me. I see christianity as one path to God, Jesus as part of that path, but not the only one.

[Caroline]

I've pondering what to write here all morning. Not sure how to define what I believe right now, except to state what I DON'T believe. Maybe I'll keep it short for now. My wavering isn't with God as much as with religion. If we are children of God, we are all children of God. Trying to be tactful while saying what I mean....I believe God loves us unconditionally, where we are, for who we are. If King David can be " a man after God's heart" then I see a lot more leeway in God's love for us. I don't see God as someone who says you must show me you love me before I can return the favor. It's like seeing your child for the first time and knowing you have this wonderful created being and you'd do anything for it. It does nothing in return except be. A child's essence is enough to extend unconditional love.

 

That's the beginning. I don't see God as just a christian God, so maybe I'm not right for this thread for me. I see christianity as one path to God, Jesus as part of that path, but not the only one.

 

 

 

EL, I think this is exactly the right thread for you! I love what you wrote here.

[Onceuponatime]

That's the beginning. I don't see God as just a christian God, so maybe I'm not right for this thread for me. I see christianity as one path to God, Jesus as part of that path, but not the only one.

 

 

From what I understand, this is exactly the thread for you. Progressive Christianity acknowledges other paths to God. A progressive Christian is just someone who has chosen to follow the teachings of Jesus as an "enlightened" man of wisdom, in the same way others may choose to follow Buddhist teachings. It is a whole new way to look at Christianity. The old argument that Jesus must have been Lord, lunatic, or liar, does not hold water. Another choice is evident. Jesus could have been a radical Jewish mystic who looked at religion and life with new eyes, and tried to teach a universal philosophy of love for all. His status as the son of God would be the same status that we all hold as children of God, not as some supernatural divinity.

[Night Elf]

I've never heard the term Progressive Christianity before. I'll have to look at some of these book recommendations. My problem is that I want and need some religious element in my life but cannot reconcile taking the Bible literally or the idea that some people are just slap not getting into heaven. The worst thing I've heard was on this board when someone told me I shouldn't worry because it was preordained and nothing I could do or think would get me into heaven anyway. That rocked my world. I can see being rejected by people, but the idea of being rejected by God is quite repulsive. I'm more than an agnostic though because I do believe in God. I haven't identified with the idea of Christianity in a while because I am not sure about Jesus. My biggest obstacle is faith. I wish I had more of it.

[Onceuponatime]

I've never heard the term Progressive Christianity before. I'll have to look at some of these book recommendations. My problem is that I want and need some religious element in my life but cannot reconcile taking the Bible literally or the idea that some people are just slap not getting into heaven. The worst thing I've heard was on this board when someone told me I shouldn't worry because it was preordained and nothing I could do or think would get me into heaven anyway. That rocked my world. I can see being rejected by people, but the idea of being rejected by God is quite repulsive. I'm more than an agnostic though because I do believe in God. I haven't identified with the idea of Christianity in a while because I am not sure about Jesus. My biggest obstacle is faith. I wish I had more of it.

 

 

 

I recommend starting with The Heart of Christianity by Marcus Borg. I think you will find it a relief to let go of some traditional elements of Christiainity that are more guilt inducing than productive. One of them is the belief that we need more faith. Really.

 

:001_smile:

 

 

I think I am in danger of talking too much in this thread. Someone feel free to put a stopper in me, if necessary.

[Veritaserum]

I more and more believe that there are many paths to God or enlightenment. Another aspect of my Mormon upbringing is the idea that there is only One True Church and that everyone else is missing out on "the fullness of the Gospel." That's why the Mormons have such a huge missionary force. I've never been comfortable with the idea of proselyting, even when I was an orthodox member, because I've always thought it was rude to insert yourself into someone's life to tell them that what they believe is wrong. I was happy to share info if someone asked me, but I hated any pushes to manipulate conversations in order to bring up my religious beliefs.

[Jenny in Florida]

I'll admit to being the first victim of confusion. I'd wondered where the blue star disappeared to, and why the OP wasn't making much sense. Perhaps a slight change in title will help.

 

 

Maybe Discussing progressive Christianity? Or just Progressive Christianity?

 

 

Okey dokey. I changed the title of the thread to "Discussing" instead of "Exploring." I apologize for any confusion caused by the similarity of the original title to the other thread, and I hope this makes it easier to find and distinguish each one.

[Jenny in Florida]

The old argument that Jesus must have been Lord, lunatic, or liar, does not hold water. Another choice is evident. Jesus could have been a radical Jewish mystic who looked at religion and life with new eyes, and tried to teach a universal philosophy of love for all. His status as the son of God would be the same status that we all hold as children of God, not as some supernatural divinity.

 

 

This is simply a lovely way to describe the essence of where I'm going. Thank you!

[Jenny in Florida]

 

 

I think I am in danger of talking too much in this thread. Someone feel free to put a stopper in me, if necessary.

 

 

No, no! Keep going!

[elegantlion]

I'll add another bit. Dh is not on this journey, ds is. I can talk deeply to ds about my waverings and he's at the perfect age to explore with me. However, I've noticed my own bias against using the Bible as a literary document has showed up. We're studying ancients and I've had a hard time scheduling reading the bible as "Great Book".

 

One thing I have done is ordered the New Oxford Annotated Bible (recommended here I think). It includes ALL the books including what would be in a Catholic and Orthodox bible. It is not denomination specific in its notes, but simply historical and literary.

 

After spending years in a church, taking copious notes in previous bibles, I feel better opening one that is "fresh".

 

Showing my ignorance here, but studying Ancient Near East history with ds has showed me the wealth of writings from that time period. I grew up thinking The Bible was pretty much it, that it represented ALL the people, not just a certain segment. Silly, yes, but I think many people never really study that segment of ancient history in high school. Maybe Gilgamesh, maybe some Egyptian stuff (not really understanding the scope of Egyptian history alone).

 

I really want my faith to be from a position of knowledge (which sounds contradictory - but it's hard to explain), not from a place of ignorance of world events of the period.

[Mergath]

From what I understand, this is exactly the thread for you. Progressive Christianity acknowledges other paths to God. A progressive Christian is just someone who has chosen to follow the teachings of Jesus as an "enlightened" man of wisdom, in the same way others may choose to follow Buddhist teachings. It is a whole new way to look at Christianity. The old argument that Jesus must have been Lord, lunatic, or liar, does not hold water. Another choice is evident. Jesus could have been a radical Jewish mystic who looked at religion and life with new eyes, and tried to teach a universal philosophy of love for all. His status as the son of God would be the same status that we all hold as children of God, not as some supernatural divinity.

 

Ooh, then can I tag along too? :) I usually refer to myself as Pagan, just because nothing else really fits, but my beliefs are basically just a mishmash of ideas I've picked up from studying many different religions. I've always been intrigued by the teachings of Jesus and thought they had a lot to offer if you separate them out from all the rest of the NT (like most of Paul's letters *ahem*) but I've had so many issues with Christianity because of my history as a teen that I mostly just looked past it. I recently read Misquoting Jesus, however, and it's becoming something I'm interested in researching further. I can't discuss it anywhere else though, because every Christian group on the internet basically requires you to have some kind of magical wonderful conversion experience, otherwise you're not doing it right.

[Snow]

Sounds like we should start a Marcus Borg Fan club ;-)

 

I hope Jenny doesn't mind, but are there certain topics that you would like to discuss, in addition to sharing resources?

 

I would love to hear about:

How/if you incorporate meditation into your faith practices

How you are teaching christianity and/or world religions to your kids

If you believe God acts in people's lives in response to prayer or not

 

 

Gotta run but back for more soon ;-)

[Jenny in Florida]

Ooh, then can I tag along too? :)

 

Absolutely, welcome!

[NotSoObvious]

Jenny in Florida, I could have written your exact post!!!

 

We are still going to the UU church, but exploring the Episcopal church, sometimes on the same days! I get squirmy with some of the religious stuff at the Episcopal church, but don't feel that our UU church allows for enough spiritual growth, especially in RE.

 

A friend who is an Episcopal deacon recommended Marcus Borg and he is seriously changing our lives. I'm not really sure which church we'll end up in, but it's starting to matter a lot less!

 

I'm excited for all the new book recommendations!

[Caroline]

So was Thomas Jefferson a Progressive Christian? Didn't he rewrite the Bible with all of the supernatural taken out?

[Onceuponatime]

 

I really want my faith to be from a position of knowledge (which sounds contradictory - but it's hard to explain), not from a place of ignorance of world events of the period.

 

 

This is exactly how I feel. That is why I've done so much reading on the subject, expecially history and historical criticism. I love the historical research part of my journey, it helps me to redefine and refine what I do and do not believe. And the history is fascinating.

Karen Armstrong's books on the Bible are written to give the lay person much of that historical knowledge that others get in Bible colleges and seminaries, but is not talked about in churches.

 

When I first read some of the books on my list, I had to get over some anger at what I felt was the "establishment." The churches I've attended have religiously maligned others for being blind and not studying or not allowing their members to learn of certain teachings. When I found out my church was doing the same thing, and most lay members are not even aware of historical criticism, I struggled with what to do with my knowledge. I still struggle with that.

[Snow]

I agree, the hisotrical context is so important. we have to consider what events meant to the people at the time and reading the bible in this context provides so much more depth.

 

I think what fascinates me the most though, is the etymology and how it shapes our whole perception of the theology. The meaning behind the words in the bible is subject to translation and the bias inherent in that translation. Which is another reason why the literal approach is so wrong for me... I'm reading Speaking Christian by Borg right now and it's fabulous and talks all about this. I.e., the word salvation (and saved) has taken on a whole different meaning by born agains than is intended. Salvation is really more like restoration and returning home, rather than a simplistic "I'm not going to hell anymore."

[Snow]

So was Thomas Jefferson a Progressive Christian? Didn't he rewrite the Bible with all of the supernatural taken out?

 

 

I dont know anything about jefferson, but there's an interesting thought...does your "progressiveness" mean you don't believe in any supernatural component in the bible? Hmmm, I'll have to think on this one. My first reaction is that I'm okay with some supernatural but there is a line for me....I mean burning bush, I'd say metaphor. Feeding 5000, I like thinking that's true. So maybe it's just about how emotionally attached I am to the supernatural event.

 

 

I think I am in danger of talking too much in this thread. Someone feel free to put a stopper in me, if necessary.

 

Ditto for me.

[Onceuponatime]

Sounds like we should start a Marcus Borg Fan club ;-)

 

I hope Jenny doesn't mind, but are there certain topics that you would like to discuss, in addition to sharing resources?

 

I would love to hear about:

How/if you incorporate mediation into your faith practices

How you are teaching christianity and/or world religions to your kids

If you believe God acts in people's lives in response to prayer or not

 

 

Gotta run but back for more soon ;-)

 

 

 

These are very hard questions.

 

Meditation- The best I can do right now is to spend time reading and thinking. I don't have any regular or specific practice. I've tried before and it feels fake. The closest I come is when I hear of someone hurting in some way. Then I kind of visualize myself rooted to the earth like a tree and sending out strength and peace to the person through our universal connection of existence. I know that sounds really hokey. :blush:

 

Teaching religion to your kids- This is one where I have to tread lightly. Our church is what Marcus Borg would call "soft fundamentalist" with a few hard core fundamentalist members. I actually spent about 3 years trying to be a hard core fundamentalist, and they were the most miserable years of my life. During that time, I was desperately trying to save my children from damnation through "Christian" education. Ugh. I've spent a lot of time in the last few years trying to gently undo the mess. I let my kids see me reading all kinds of books about religion and religious history, and when the opportunity arises we discuss all kinds of religious questions. I no longer make faith or salvation issues in our home. Instead, learning and thinking for yourself are more emphasized. Next year will be a landmark year for me in our homeschool. Instead of "Church History" in our 4 year history cycle, we will be doing "World Religions."

 

Prayer- This is the hardest question to answer without sounding really strange. Let's just say that my beliefs about the nature of God and reality have radically changed. See meditation above.

[Matryoshka]

I grew up without any church. My religious education mostly consisted of Arch books my mother bought (most of them from the Old Testament). I always believed in God, though, but didn't have any rulebook as to the specifics. After my Seventh-Day-Adventist grandmother came for a visit and I went with her to Sabbath School, I asked my mom if we could go to church because they'd had fun activities. She brought me to the local Episcopal church, which was the most liberal one she could find, as the local UCC church had been taken over by Southern Baptists (really!). I think I went there for two years, what I remember most was learning the Lord's Prayer and the Golden Rule.

 

Then I went to a Catholic high school, not for religious reasons, but because the local ps was awful. As a non-Catholic, I didn't have to take Religion classes, but I did have to take a freshman course in "Christian Values" which consisted of a very old nun in a full-length habit teaching us the Rosary and about Scapulas. I also attended the regular (monthly?) masses, but of course didn't take communion. Both the Episcopal and Catholic traditions obviously have very liturgical services, and I always felt like I should be getting something out of the services, but I never did. I've read so many stories about people finding great meaning in the liturgical services, but I just couldn't.

 

I attended a Unitarian church for about 8 months in my 20's. That left me wanting more in a different way. It seemed more like secular social justice meetings than a church or even some kind of discussion of spiritual matters.

 

When I got married, we went looking for a church. We tried both UCC and UU churches, but the one was "too Christian" and the other "not Christian enough" (I sound like Goldilocks). We ended up at a church that was both UUA/UCC, which has been "just right". There is a rhythm to the services, but not a "repeat after me" thing. God is mentioned often, as is Jesus, but no one minds if you see him as divine or just as a great teacher or prophet. Often there are readings from other religious traditions. I feel spiritually fed there for the first time - the sermons make me reflect and think deeply without telling me what or how to think.

 

This has been a great place to figure out my path. I do seem to be Unitarian in the sense that I'm not Trinitarian. That's a big part of traditional Christianity that I just can't buy into. I read The Shack, and hated it for reasons completely different than most - it was just so darned Trinity focused! I believe that there is one God, but that he is known and worshipped in many ways and by many names. I am Universalist in that I do believe that God loves everyone regardless of religion. I cannot believe in a God that would save just some portion of humanity, not even based on their lives, actions, or general morality but based on when and where they were born and lived. I believe that there is some universal Truth, but no one knows all of it, and it isn't found in any one book, rather that it is most likely echoed in the resonance among religions - love your neighbor, versions of the Golden Rule, help those less fortunate.

 

I've also read Marcus Borg's Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time and loved it. I should read more by him, especially with all the glowing recommendations here! The Faith Club was another book I liked, though not just about Christianity. Books I've had on my to-read list for a while (they looked interesting on some B&N table) are Jesus and Yahweh by Harold Bloom (anyone read anything by him? would I like it?) and Tolstoy's The Gospels in Brief (the back of the book said Tolstoy "rejected all the mystery and miracles in Christianity and focused instead on the powerful truth in Jesus' words" - so that sounded interesting).

 

While I haven't felt I could call myself a Christian for a while, since I don't believe in the literal divinity of Jesus and I haven't even read the whole Bible, so I can't even properly say I really follow his teachings, Christianity still seems like my "base". What Jesus actually taught does resonate with me (it helps if I can just ignore Paul and Revelations ;) ). And I do like the liturgical year (if not the liturgical service) - I'm one of those who keeps my tree up till Epiphany, and we celebrate Advent. My church, progressive as it is, also recognizes the liturgical year in a way it sounds like a lot of Evangelical/conservative churches don't, which I find kind of ironic...

 

Anyhoo, that's kind of where I am... I think I've rambled on quite enough! :)

[Runningmom80]

I'm going to come back to this thread! :)

[sparrow]

I'm going to come back to this thread! :)

 

:iagree: Kids have a dentist appointment. I'm ruminating my thoughts :001_smile: .

[ktgrok]

hmm...not sure if I would be considered progressive enough, lol. I actually do believe, totally, in the virgin birth, death, and resurection of Jesus. I believe he was/is God. I believe though that God is merciful, and doesn't want anyone to suffer or go to Hell. That Hell is just separation by God, and only could be achieved by choosing such a state, not by being condemmed to it. I believe God loves gay people just as much as anyone else, and that since love is the greatest commandment he is made happy by their love. He doesn't hate it. I think that he perhaps reached other cultures in other ways, and that He is glorified by other religious practices, when practiced sincerely. I do believe the fullest truth is in Christianity, but realize that may just be true for me and that God realized that others were better reached in a different tradition.

 

I am happy in the Episcopal church as I can say the creed honestly and nothing else is required as far as belief. And my left wing politics are not a problem :)

[Izzy]

-

[mommymilkies]

I think I belong here. My heart has been pulling me between Judaism (I was raised laid back reform with family and never officially converted), Catholicism, and Orthodoxy. I was probably the only crazy Jewish kid who collected books of Catholic saints. Lol. I still am not quite sure where I stand. I love the UU, but there aren't any anywhere near here, and I feel the need for something more defined. But then I have a few problems with the religions that call me. I am politically very liberal. I am pro-choice (not pro-abortion, there is a difference!), pro-gay marriage, and I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. I don't believe there is one true faith and I feel like they're all kind of paths to the same ultimate good. Sigh.

[SunnyDays]

I'm not sure I'm "progressive" enough to hang out here!! But I do feel I fit more in this category than in any other, if that makes sense.

 

I grew up in fairly conservative protestant churches, and we continued the trend into adulthood.

We started attending an ELCA Lutheran church last year, and it's a bit refreshing to see how many people love God but can also have discussions about religion with a more open mind, or even have discussions about a variety of other topics!! I still retain most typical Christian beliefs, but I'm open to learning about other things.

 

:) I'm really enjoying hearing all your stories!!

[Jenny in Florida]

I think I belong here. My heart has been pulling me between Judaism (I was raised laid back reform with family and never officially converted), Catholicism, and Orthodoxy. I was probably the only crazy Jewish kid who collected books of Catholic saints. Lol. I still am not quite sure where I stand. I love the UU, but there aren't any anywhere near here, and I feel the need for something more defined. But then I have a few problems with the religions that call me. I am politically very liberal. I am pro-choice (not pro-abortion, there is a difference!), pro-gay marriage, and I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. I don't believe there is one true faith and I feel like they're all kind of paths to the same ultimate good. Sigh.

 

 

It sounds like we should start our own denomination.

 

I'm still in, as Matryoshka said, the Goldilocks phase. UU just isn't enough. (And yes, I realize UU congregations vary widely. The one from which I'm pulling away is my third, and I've visited a number of others. I just need . . . more.) But when I visit other churches, even the ones that are perceived as very liberal, I often feel like it's much too much.

 

And I completely understand your distinction between pro-choice and pro-abortion. I'm personally pro-life (anti-abortion, anti-capital punishment, pro-vegetarian) but pro-choice when it comes to public policy. I'm very much in favor of marriage equality and in favor of radical inclusion in society and church communities.

 

I'm also fascinated by religion, and have been for my whole life. When I was a kid, I invented my own goddess. I've gone through phases of reading rabidly about Hinduism, Buddhism, the Amish and Judaism and have more than once considered converting to the latter. But, when push comes to shove -- and I recognize there may be a cultural compenent to this -- the theology that resonates most meaningfully in my heart and soul is Christianity, even though I have some real trouble with the churches that represent it.

 

Thus far, one of the ideas I've gleaned that has felt most significant to me is that sacred writings can be metaphorically true without being fact-literal. (I'm borrowing those phrases from one of the ministers whose podcasts I mentioned earlier.) Like great literature, the Bible and other holy books can be important and meaningful and teach and inspire us without having to be treated as literally "true." For example, while I don't believe that Jesus was physically resurrected, I find the metaphor of him being raised from the dead and still with his followers and us in the form of his teachings to be powerfully inspiring.

 

With that in mind, and the reason I think the UUs just aren't working for me anymore, I'm questing for a denomination/congregation/community that studies these sacred documents in a deep and thoughtful way, looking at them historically and academically while also mining for religious meaning. I don't want to learn some superficial concepts about the Buddha one Sunday and then move on to something else next week. I want to really learn, examine, discuss, absorb in a determined way. But I also don't find it helpful to have to pay lip service to things I just don't believe or can't accept, which is why I keep hitting roadblocks when I try to venture outside of my UU comfort zone.

 

By the way: To all of those wondering if you "belong" here, yes, you do. We don't have an entrance exam or statement of faith to participate in this thread. If you're searcing, moving in a more "liberal" or less traditional direction, you're welcome here.

 

After several months of reading and researching, I think my best bet is probably a liberal, progressive UCC congregation. I've visited three UCC churches in my area, one of which I crossed off the list immediately. The second was . . . fine. I'm feeling hopeful about the third and looking forward to going back this Sunday.

[SunnyDays]

I'm wondering... there are many of you who have a "base" in Christianity but are questioning many of the tenets... have you read much about Deism?

 

http://deism.com/deism_defined.htm

 

Just wondering your thoughts if you've looked into it??

 

I will have to look up some of the Karen Armstrong books, as I would enjoy learning more about the historical context that was mentioned above.

 

The pro-life/pro-choice/pro-abortion thing... yes!! I'm personally pro life and believe life begins at conception (or if I'm technical, implantation because I don't believe hormonal BC actually causes abortions). But legally, I would have trouble with the option of abortion being outlawed. I like what was touted in the Clinton era: that abortion should be safe, legal, and RARE.

[ktgrok]

For those wondering if they are Christian when they don't fit in with Christianity as it is today, my priest had a great point in her sermon. She said Christianity isn't about what you believe, but about WHO you believe in. It's about who, not what. That really resonated with me.

[elegantlion]

Sounds like we should start a Marcus Borg Fan club ;-)

 

I hope Jenny doesn't mind, but are there certain topics that you would like to discuss, in addition to sharing resources?

 

I would love to hear about:

How/if you incorporate mediation into your faith practices

How you are teaching christianity and/or world religions to your kids

If you believe God acts in people's lives in response to prayer or not

 

 

Gotta run but back for more soon ;-)

 

Meditation - nothing real yet. I've had a very anxious year in real life, so I'm striving to find my inner calm. I pray, but I don't pray as meditation. I used to, but I can't anymore. I'm a big thinker. As I've been sick, my mind goes to a million places. Writing is a form of centering for me, I can tell when I haven't written, although that's not really spiritual, but involves my spirit.

 

I believe in a literal spiritual realm, that may sound new or hokey, but I have reasons to say that which I won't discuss on an open board. I believe in heaven and hell, just not sure what constitutes getting your pass to one or damnation to the other.

 

 

Teaching religion? - We attended church for years, ds is well grounded in bible stories. We're expanding that to teaching religion from the perspective of a person practicing that religion. It's an ongoing process, which we will hit more next year. When I first started looking I found many books to teach religion from a christian perspective. I didn't want that, so it's been harder. Because my son is interested in living in Japan in the future, we're studying/going to study Eastern religion and philosophy as well.

 

I also am teaching Ethics and other items from a more global perspective than from the tangent of religion. I want ds to understand that morals and ethics are not simply religious constructs. I grew up with some people (not my parents) telling me that those without Christ could not be moral or ethical. It toyed with my relationships with people for many years. Today many of the people I highly regard with being ethical, moral, and compassionate are those with religion in their lives.

 

Answers to prayers? - Yes, I think God (as I see God) answers prayers. I have seen that happen in my own life and those around me. It's larger than ask then get an answer, because there isn't always an answer. I can look outside and see God move. I watched a sparrow sit on my deck a few years ago. It was a baby and we were in a tornado warning, lots of rain, wind, nasty weather. He sat there gripping the iron chair and faced the storm the whole time. When the storm was gone, the mother bird came to find him. It really spoke to me and I saw God move through that action of one little bird. It sounds cliche, but watching that bird was really moving. The bird doesn't cognitively know about God and faith. He just sat there, hung on, and believed whatever that storm was that it would pass. In the end someone came for him that he knew, I hope that is sort of what God is like.

[Jenny in Florida]

Sounds like we should start a Marcus Borg Fan club ;-)

 

I hope Jenny doesn't mind, but are there certain topics that you would like to discuss, in addition to sharing resources?

 

I would love to hear about:

How/if you incorporate mediation into your faith practices

How you are teaching christianity and/or world religions to your kids

If you believe God acts in people's lives in response to prayer or not

 

 

Gotta run but back for more soon ;-)

 

 

Meditation - Nothing formal, although I've found the idea appealing. I do sometimes force myself to be quiet and still, either to shut out things so I can be calm or to focus on someone or some situation. For example, when we get folks here asking for prayers, I will pull away from my keyboard, close my eyes and sit in stillness for a few minutes trying to hold that person in my thoughts. I also do some visualization sometimes, seeing "energy" coming from me and going where it's needed. (I've never actually told anyone that before, by the way.)

 

Teaching religion - Both of my kids have grown up in the UU Religious Education program, and I've taught on and off for as long as they've been alive. Each has also done a formal world religions study as part of our homeschool curriculum. We've generally tried to give equal weight to all major world religions and to stress commonalities.

 

Prayer - No, I don't really think God answers prayers in a personal way. I don't have any conception of a personified, human-like God. I suspect whatever is out there is far beyond what my puny human brain could understand, but I tend to think of the deity as a force more than anything I'd recognize. When I pray, I try to focus on asking for help or strength to be or do what I need to be or do in order to get through a challenge -- or the same on behalf of other people -- rather than for a solution to the challenge.

 

For example, when I was pregnant with my son, we had a scare when some testing came back wonky. For several days, we thought there was a very good chance there was something seriously wrong with the baby. My OB was starting to suggest more testing and to gingerly broach the topic of aborting if we continued to get negative results. Needless to say, I was a mess. One day, I was sitting in church during the prayer and meditation time, and I shifted from begging God to make the baby okay to asking for stregth and patience to be the mother this child needed me to be. I literally felt something click into place physically, and my heart rate slowed and I could breath again.

 

It turned out he was fine, by the way. We never did figure out what caused the worrying test results.

 

But the experience stayed with me.

[Matryoshka]

I'm wondering... there are many of you who have a "base" in Christianity but are questioning many of the tenets... have you read much about Deism?

 

http://deism.com/deism_defined.htm

 

I've read about it and while I still identify as strongly Christian, I see the appeal of Deism. Just wondering your thoughts if you've looked into it??

 

 

 

There was a thread a while back about different belief systems, and included Theism/Deism, and I looked up the difference, as other than Greek vs. Latin roots, I wasn't sure what it was. After looking into it, I'd identify more as a Theist than a Deist. :) But I know of no Theist or Deist churches or religious communities...

[Onceuponatime]

. For example, when we get folks here asking for prayers, I will pull away from my keyboard, close my eyes and sit in stillness for a few minutes trying to hold that person in my thoughts. I also do some visualization sometimes, seeing "energy" coming from me and going where it's needed. (I've never actually told anyone that before, by the way.)

 

 

 

 

I want to thank you for opening up and telling us this, I was starting to feel a little "out there" with my own revelation. This is also the first time I have told anyone.

 

 

I no longer believe in God as a separate being but as existence itself, encompassing all that is including ourselves, plus something more. "In Him we live and move and have our being," the "Him" being metaphorical. I believe in the connectedness of all creation. I am part of you as you are part of me and all humanity, even all of the natural world. I guess it is panentheism. I don't believe in a literal heaven or hell, but that they are a human construct, a metaphor for the good and evil we create ourselves. I believe that our thoughts and intentions have a lot power, and that we have an effect on the world around us, whether we are aware of it or not.

[Veritaserum]

I really want my faith to be from a position of knowledge (which sounds contradictory - but it's hard to explain), not from a place of ignorance of world events of the period.

 

Yes! I want an intellectual faith.

 

This is exactly how I feel. That is why I've done so much reading on the subject, expecially history and historical criticism. I love the historical research part of my journey, it helps me to redfine and refine what I do and do not believe. And the history is fascinating.

Karen Armstrong's books on the Bible are written to give the lay person much of that historical knowledge that others get in Bible colleges and seminaries, but is not talked about in churches.

When I first read some of the books on my list, I had to get over some anger at what I felt was the "establishment." The churches I've attended have religiously maligned others for being blind and not studying or not allowing their members to learn of certain teachings. When I found out my church was doing the same thing, and most lay members are not even aware of historical criticism, I struggled with what to do with my knowledge. I still struggle with that.

 

My experience as a Mormon was similar. I was taught a very rosy, whitewashed view of LDS history. When I learned the real history, warts and all, it was very unsettling. I was angry that the church concealed information or altered it. For example, I wanted to read the church's version of Joseph Smith's polyandry and polygamy, but there was nothing about it in church publications. Major doctrinal changes are enacted and then no one talks about why things changed or what was taught as doctrine before (non-whites and priesthood ordination is an example of this). I don't at all mind that people and the institutions they create are flawed. I mind very much when people and the institutions they create try to manipulate information to present themselves as perfect when they obviously are not. It broke my trust when I saw the disconnect between what was taught or talked about and what was factual reality. For awhile I fought to hang on with the ingrained apologetics, but I can't do that anymore and stay sane or healthy.

 

I haven't yet visited a UU church. Dh wants to stay LDS and he wants to take the kids with him to church, but he supports me in finding a path that is fulfilling to me. There is a very small UU church about 15 min. away that meets every other Sunday. There is a larger congregation 45 min. away that meets every Sunday and has a more robust program. I love what I've read on the website of the larger one. It may be worth the drive.

 

There is a non-denominational Christian church near me that also interests me. I'm just so sick of anyone telling me that their way is the true way. I need to find my own way without pressure.

[Dicentra]

Wondering if I can join in, too? I don't post often to the board (but lurk much) but this thread jumped out at me. I've been having many of the same questions and thoughts. Has anyone considered or looked at reformed or nontheist Quakerism? This is from the Patheos website:

 

"The Religious Society of Friends, commonly known as the Quakers, is a Protestant Christian tradition originating in mid-17th century England. Founded (traditionally) by George Fox, it adhered to religious teaching and practice that focused on living in accordance with the "Inward Light" (the inward apprehension of God, who is within everyone). Fox claimed that true believers could engage the risen Lord directly through the Holy Spirit without ministers, priests, or the sacraments. All are capable of experiencing the promise of Christ, enabling all to live in Christ's love. This belief influenced the position of the equality of women, a unique characteristic within Christianity in its time. Quaker meetings are often filled with silence because they are committed to waiting for God's presence in faith and patience. This religious movement was not received well in England and they in turn were persecuted for not going to services of the Church of England, refusing to tithe, and for going to Quaker services. While being persecuted in England, many Quakers were converting many people in America, especially in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. In fact, Pennsylvania was set up as a Quaker colony in which the state was supposed to be governed by Friends' principles, including religious toleration and pacifism. Historically, the Society of Friends has endorsed strong moral codes including the refusal to participate in war, the refusal to own slaves, and the elimination of many worldly structures. Socially, they were committed to various causes including women's suffrage, the abolition of slavery, and prison reform. Today there are many branches of Quakerism, some that hold more traditional Christian doctrines and others that are more liberal in their interpretations of these beliefs."

 

I really like the idea that my faith-journey doesn't require anything other than myself and God (whomever he/she/it may be) - no ministers, priests, or sacraments. I agree with what many of you are saying - I definitely want an intellectual faith! Somewhat of an oxymoron, I suppose - I have a very difficult time taking anything "on faith" - I need to think, mull, dig deeper, mull some more, question everything... And then probably start from scratch again tomorrow. :001_smile:

 

Here's a site for Nontheist Friends:

http://www.nontheistfriends.org/

I haven't had the time to read everything there so I can't say that I agree with all of it but it's been a starting point for me.

[Aelwydd]

I more and more believe that there are many paths to God or enlightenment. Another aspect of my Mormon upbringing is the idea that there is only One True Church and that everyone else is missing out on "the fullness of the Gospel." That's why the Mormons have such a huge missionary force. I've never been comfortable with the idea of proselyting, even when I was an orthodox member, because I've always thought it was rude to insert yourself into someone's life to tell them that what they believe is wrong. I was happy to share info if someone asked me, but I hated any pushes to manipulate conversations in order to bring up my religious beliefs.

 

 

I had similar feelings when I was growing up in an evangelical congregation. I always felt awkward and disingenious talking to others about how they should be saved, when I knew I harbored many questions about my own faith. Yet, I was told by my mentors that such doubts were normal, and I should continue to spread the Gospel.

 

In the history of the church, I feel there has been a great deal more discontent spread, than "good news."

[Aelwydd]

Wondering if I can join in, too? I don't post often to the board (but lurk much) but this thread jumped out at me. I've been having many of the same questions and thoughts. Has anyone considered or looked at reformed or nontheist Quakerism? This is from the Patheos website:

 

"The Religious Society of Friends, commonly known as the Quakers, is a Protestant Christian tradition originating in mid-17th century England. Founded (traditionally) by George Fox, it adhered to religious teaching and practice that focused on living in accordance with the "Inward Light" (the inward apprehension of God, who is within everyone). Fox claimed that true believers could engage the risen Lord directly through the Holy Spirit without ministers, priests, or the sacraments. All are capable of experiencing the promise of Christ, enabling all to live in Christ's love. This belief influenced the position of the equality of women, a unique characteristic within Christianity in its time. Quaker meetings are often filled with silence because they are committed to waiting for God's presence in faith and patience. This religious movement was not received well in England and they in turn were persecuted for not going to services of the Church of England, refusing to tithe, and for going to Quaker services. While being persecuted in England, many Quakers were converting many people in America, especially in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. In fact, Pennsylvania was set up as a Quaker colony in which the state was supposed to be governed by Friends' principles, including religious toleration and pacifism. Historically, the Society of Friends has endorsed strong moral codes including the refusal to participate in war, the refusal to own slaves, and the elimination of many worldly structures. Socially, they were committed to various causes including women's suffrage, the abolition of slavery, and prison reform. Today there are many branches of Quakerism, some that hold more traditional Christian doctrines and others that are more liberal in their interpretations of these beliefs."

 

I really like the idea that my faith-journey doesn't require anything other than myself and God (whomever he/she/it may be) - no ministers, priests, or sacraments. I agree with what many of you are saying - I definitely want an intellectual faith! Somewhat of an oxymoron, I suppose - I have a very difficult time taking anything "on faith" - I need to think, mull, dig deeper, mull some more, question everything... And then probably start from scratch again tomorrow. :001_smile:

 

Here's a site for Nontheist Friends:

http://www.nontheistfriends.org/

I haven't had the time to read everything there so I can't say that I agree with all of it but it's been a starting point for me.

 

This is the church that interests dh and me, most. The only drawback for me, is I would miss the ceremonial aspect of the Episcopal church. The parish we attend is very liberal, and accepting of all types. It's a choice we revisit often, though, because of how closely our beliefs align with those of the Quakers.

[shukriyya]

I'm reading this thread with interest. Thank you, Jenny in Florida, for opening the discussion and welcoming us all.

 

My experience has been that religion and spirituality are two different streams and can manifest in ways that seem mutually exclusive. There are points of convergence naturally but one's relationship with the Beloved isn't dependent upon a religious paradigm though that paradigm can often serve as tent pegs for deepening and provides a temenos. But I think at some point one must leave off and go out into the 'wilderness', so to speak, as so many of the Desert Fathers and Mothers did. The great mystics and their relationship with God are the beings who draw me in, Rumi, Rabia, Mirabai, Kabir, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart and countless others.

 

Cynthia Bourgeault is a wonderful writer, an Episcopalian priest, a woman who is comfortable with the ambiguities that are inherent in the spiritual journey, which is to say, the ellipse of the human experience. She has written among other things, 'The Wisdom Jesus : Transforming Heart and Mind' and 'Discovering Mary Magdalene : The Woman at the Heart of Christianity' and is a leader in the centering prayer movement which sounds like it might speak to a lot of the posters on this thread.

 

Another favorite author is James Finley. One of his best books is 'Christian Meditation : Experiencing the Presence of God'. While the language is overtly Christian this is a wonderful guidebook for anyone wishing to deepen their awareness of their relationship with the Divine Presence no matter what tradition they are working in.

[mommymilkies]

I want to thank you for opening up and telling us this, I was starting to feel a little "out there" with my own revelation. This is also the first time I have told anyone.

I no longer believe in God as a separate being but as existence itself, encompassing all that is including ourselves, plus something more. "In Him we live and move and have our being," the "Him" being metaphorical. I believe in the connectedness of all creation. I am part of you as you are part of me and all humanity, even all of the natural world. I guess it is panentheism. I don't believe in a literal heaven or hell, but that they are a human construct, a metaphor for the good and evil we create ourselves. I believe that our thoughts and intentions have a lot power, and that we have an effect on the world around us, whether we are aware of it or not.

 

This is also pretty much how I feel.

 

The Language of God is a really good book. I do like the Liberal Quakers, but they are further from me than the UU!