4-H or Cub scouts???

[joyfulhomeschooler]

Which one do you think is better and why? This is for a nine year old boy who would like to make some friends.

[Plateau Mama]

Which one do you think is better and why? This is for a nine year old boy who would like to make some friends.

 

I have no experience with 4h but I I am familiar with cub scouts. As a 9 yo (4th grade I'm assuming) you are at the tail end of Cub Scouts. If you are going to join he would be a WEBELO which is a 1.5 year rank. It is a lot of work, but the boys have a great time. We had a set of twins join last year as Webelos, one is still involved. The other just dropped.

 

He either needs to join as a 4th grader or wait for Boy Scouts. Joining in the 2nd year of Webelos sets one up for a bad experience IMO.

 

I love scouts. It had been really great for my son. He loves it. It is the only extra that he's ever done that he doesn't complain about.

[Audrey]

4H.

 

1. It requires less $$ output from parents.

2. Children have more freedom for personal expression for achievement. Scouts is rather rigid in its demands for achievement.

3. It is more cooperative and less competitive.

4. AFAIK, 4H doesn't have over 1000 leaders implicated of sexual assault in a massive lawsuit.

[joyfulhomeschooler]

I have no experience with 4h but I I am familiar with cub scouts. As a 9 yo (4th grade I'm assuming) you are at the tail end of Cub Scouts. If you are going to join he would be a WEBELO which is a 1.5 year rank. It is a lot of work, but the boys have a great time. We had a set of twins join last year as Webelos, one is still involved. The other just dropped.

 

He either needs to join as a 4th grader or wait for Boy Scouts. Joining in the 2nd year of Webelos sets one up for a bad experience IMO.

 

I love scouts. It had been really great for my son. He loves it. It is the only extra that he's ever done that he doesn't complain about.

Thanks. I called today to check on it and they said he would be a WEBELO and that they just started up in September, so we haven't missed much.

Well, it's common for CS to do little during the summer. And 4-H is really gung-ho during the summer, getting ready for fair. So, that might be a consideration. If you take long summer vacations, it might not work. But, you might actually consider both--they complement each other very well.

Good idea... wouldn't we have to do both all year though with weekly meetings?

4H.

 

1. It requires less $$ output from parents.

2. Children have more freedom for personal expression for achievement. Scouts is rather rigid in its demands for achievement.

3. It is more cooperative and less competitive.

4. AFAIK, 4H doesn't have over 1000 leaders implicated of sexual assault in a massive lawsuit.

Your number four scares me!!! However my husband or myself would be with him at all times. We aren't the parents to just drop our kids off.

[Samiam]

4H.

 

1. It requires less $$ output from parents.

2. Children have more freedom for personal expression for achievement. Scouts is rather rigid in its demands for achievement.

3. It is more cooperative and less competitive.

4. AFAIK, 4H doesn't have over 1000 leaders implicated of sexual assault in a massive lawsuit.

 

No, none of this. I've paid very little for Scouts. My son has earned his dues. Most activities are paid for by Pack and those that are not are optional.

 

Read tha handbook, there are various electives a Scout can choose from, various belt loops. Lots of freedom of choice.

 

Competitive?? Each boy works towards his goal with his family and his den. There no competition, and as a matter of fat for the most part only the Den Leader knows where each Scout is in achievements.

 

Come' on...really? The lawsuit thing...

[Aggie]

No, none of this. I've paid very little for Scouts. My son has earned his dues. Most activities are paid for by Pack and those that are not are optional.

 

Read tha handbook, there are various electives a Scout can choose from, various belt loops. Lots of freedom of choice.

 

Competitive?? Each boy works towards his goal with his family and his den. There no competition, and as a matter of fat for the most part only the Den Leader knows where each Scout is in achievements.

 

Come' on...really? The lawsuit thing...

 

Yes, CS is less competitive. However, I certainly wouldn't call 4-H cheaper all around. Those horses and dogs and sheep and robots and rockets and shotguns and Genesis bows and cattle and...can get pretty expensive! :D

 

The personal achievement--well, there are record books to be filled out--not much leeway there. And there aren't a whole lot of different ways to ride a horse correctly or fit a steer.

 

The big difference is that Scouts produces generalists--lots of info in many different areas. 4-H focuses in on a few areas, allowing the child to dig deeper.

 

As for the recent headlines for Scouts, well if we discuss this, this post will turn ugly very quickly and then disappear. Let's try to play nice.

 

:iagree: with both of these posts.

 

Scouts has given my ds a long-term goal. He's already thinking about his Eagle project. :)

[sparrow]

We've done both. My son is currently in 4-H and Boy Scouts. He did not like Scouts until he got to Boy Scouts. His Cub Scout years were tolerated. Our 4-H club is geared more towards girls and artsy-crafty stuff. He stays minimally involved so he can enter stuff in the county fair. We may be switching clubs this year.

 

If you find a great 4-H club, that meets his interests, it could be great. If you find a great Cub Scout Pack, it could be great. I would visit both!

 

They're both affordable and safe, if you're a reasonable parent. Google "4-H sexual abuse" or "'insert your favorite club here' sexual abuse" and you'll find stuff. The most competitiveness I've seen in Scouts is between brothers.

 

I can recommend both.

[Lily_Grace]

Check them both out.

 

As a cub scout leader and former 4H member I'd have to say that it really depends on the group organization. I've seen some hellish pack meetings where the adults are yelling and the kids are inconsiderate and disrespectful. Dh and I have decided that cub scouts offers very little for kids that are already being exposed to different interests at home. Many times the hassle isn't worth it. Boy Scouts, otoh, has a LOT more to offer to the individual.

[joyfulhomeschooler]

We've done both. My son is currently in 4-H and Boy Scouts. He did not like Scouts until he got to Boy Scouts. His Cub Scout years were tolerated. Our 4-H club is geared more towards girls and artsy-crafty stuff. He stays minimally involved so he can enter stuff in the county fair. We may be switching clubs this year.

 

If you find a great 4-H club, that meets his interests, it could be great. If you find a great Cub Scout Pack, it could be great. I would visit both!

 

They're both affordable and safe, if you're a reasonable parent. Google "4-H sexual abuse" or "'insert your favorite club here' sexual abuse" and you'll find stuff. The most competitiveness I've seen in Scouts is between brothers.

 

I can recommend both.

Thanks :) How much time do both require? I don't want to get in over my head. I have a daughter who wants to do girl scouts too. Do they both have weekly meetings?

[sparrow]

Thanks :) How much time do both require? I don't want to get in over my head. I have a daughter who wants to do girl scouts too. Do they both have weekly meetings?

 

:lol: I'm a Girl Scout leader. We do meet weekly, but some do bi-weekly.

 

Our 4-H club meets 1-2 times per month. Depending on the project, we meet for about an hour and a half. My daughter is looking to join a rabbit club, so she gets more info and experience to show a rabbit next year.

 

My son's Boy Scout troop meets weekly. Our Girl and Boy Scout meetings are one hour. So, if it's like our troops, you're looking at 2 hours per week, plus the occasional special event *if* you choose to participate.

[Audrey]

Check them both out.

 

As a cub scout leader and former 4H member I'd have to say that it really depends on the group organization. I've seen some hellish pack meetings where the adults are yelling and the kids are inconsiderate and disrespectful. Dh and I have decided that cub scouts offers very little for kids that are already being exposed to different interests at home. Many times the hassle isn't worth it. Boy Scouts, otoh, has a LOT more to offer to the individual.

 

 

That's very true. A crappy leadership ruins any organization.

[Audrey]

Yes, CS is less competitive. However, I certainly wouldn't call 4-H cheaper all around. Those horses and dogs and sheep and robots and rockets and shotguns and Genesis bows and cattle and...can get pretty expensive! :D

 

 

Do you not have non-ag projects in your area? :confused: Here my ds has done ag projects, but also digital photography, a couple of different cooking projects, outdoor skills, winter survival skills, rocketry, robotics and this year one on computer game programming. All of those were incredibly inexpensive. Plus, no uniforms to buy, no badges to buy, no fundraising for dues or trips or whatever.

[Audrey]

Thanks :) How much time do both require? I don't want to get in over my head. I have a daughter who wants to do girl scouts too. Do they both have weekly meetings?

 

Most 4H club have a club meeting once a month, and project meetings once or twice a month depending on the project. You spend some time inbetween working on the projects themselves.

[brownie]

Visit the groups. If there are a few cub scout groups in your area, try a few. Ask them about their philosophy, visit their website, etc...

 

We do scouts. We love it. But our families and leadership are great. A lot depends on the leaders, both overall and at each age level.

[DawnM]

You really do need to pick one or the other. Both are high time commitments.

 

DH did 4H growing up. It was good for him and he liked it, but we personally think scouts is better for our boys.

 

HOWEVER, it heavily depends on the leadership of the group and the dynamics of the group.

 

We have a fantastic scout group and my boys love it. They have gained self confidence, a good work ethic, friendships, and the list goes on and on. Our unit is homeschool only and we like it that way.

 

DH and I are also very involved. He is a scoutmaster assistant and I am on the Pack committee and in charge of a few things. So, he is with the older boys and I am with the youngest and we are almost always there.

 

Dawn

[shanvan]

Yes, CS is less competitive. However, I certainly wouldn't call 4-H cheaper all around. Those horses and dogs and sheep and robots and rockets and shotguns and Genesis bows and cattle and...can get pretty expensive! :D

 

I don't know that 4H is necessarily more competitive. For projects and public presentations they use the danish system and each project, presentation, and record book is judged on its own merit and according to how well they meet the standard. Lots of kids can win a blue ribbon if they have done a good job. I really like that about 4H. Then to add a little competition, they will often award a best of division ribbon as well, and that will go to one person's project.

 

Our experience has been that it can be as competitive as you make it. Our first year we only competed in the county dog show which was limited to club members. It was a very gentle introduction to competition and leaders made it very rewarding for the kids. They all went home with tons of dog treats and toys as prizes. The nest year we participated in the State show and that was more competitive. Now my Dc participate in many 4H shows and some AKC shows too, but that was our choice. If we wanted to, we could keep the competition at a very low level. As far as projects we enter for judging at the fair, we can choose to enter nothing at all and just participate in the dog show. We could even still be members without participating in any dog shows at all and just focus on training our dogs.

 

The personal achievement--well, there are record books to be filled out--not much leeway there. And there aren't a whole lot of different ways to ride a horse correctly or fit a steer.

 

I disagree. My Dc have always been told to create goals in any area they want and record them in their record books. Their goals do not necessarily have to be tied to their club focus. For example, my Dd includes her goals for piano in her record book.

 

They have also given public presentations on many different subjects that had nothing to do with dogs (their club's focus). One year my Ds recited several poems as part of his presentation. Another year my Dd talked about her favorite author Beatrix Potter. So, 4H can be steered any way you want to. There are no specific badges you work for. You decide the goals and work toward them.

 

Then at county fair time we have lots of choices for projects that can be entered. Just to give you an idea of the options, there is a category for essay and story writing, photography, woodworking, drawing, painting, the list goes on. So, I would say that 4H can be steered in any direction you want and is an incredible motivator for schoolwork since you can use your own homeschool topics as 4H projects.

 

The big difference is that Scouts produces generalists--lots of info in many different areas. 4-H focuses in on a few areas, allowing the child to dig deeper.

 

In one sense this is true, and the focus will be determined by the club you choose. But, my comments above show that you can tailor 4H to suit your needs. It doesn't have to be expensive. Our club is a dog club, but I already had a dog and the dues are a whopping $5 a year.

 

As for the recent headlines for Scouts, well if we discuss this, this post will turn ugly very quickly and then disappear. Let's try to play nice.

 

One other benefit we've had from 4H is that both of my Dc have met many professionals in the club's focus area (dogs). Since there is a common interest, Dc are now friendly with many local breeders, groomers, trainers, and kennel club members. B/c they see these people repeatedly, they are able to form relationships with them.

 

The other thing is that they have had leadership opportunities, and since the club leaders are very open to ideas, Ds has had lots of experience creating and planning events where he was the go to person. He made all the phone calls, scheduled meetings, planned the event and recruited volunteers. I *think* 4H is unique in that respect and I'm not sure all leaders would be willing to let a kid take an idea and run with it, but it has been a great experience for Ds.

 

OP, can you give each a trial period before you decide? I really don't know enough about cub scouts to compare, and, for all I know everything I've written may also be true of them.

 

I will say that 4H takes a little while to really figure out and you may not get a good idea of how it works from just one club meeting. That may be due to its flexibility. It took us some time before we understood how it works.

[shanvan]

You really do need to pick one or the other. Both are high time commitments.

 

DH did 4H growing up. It was good for him and he liked it, but we personally think scouts is better for our boys.

 

HOWEVER, it heavily depends on the leadership of the group and the dynamics of the group.

We have a fantastic scout group and my boys love it. They have gained self confidence, a good work ethic, friendships, and the list goes on and on. Our unit is homeschool only and we like it that way.

 

DH and I are also very involved. He is a scoutmaster assistant and I am on the Pack committee and in charge of a few things. So, he is with the older boys and I am with the youngest and we are almost always there.

 

Dawn

 

So true, no matter which you choose--scouts or 4H. We have tried some other 4H clubs and dropped out b/c of leadership and the cliquishness of the kids. Dh and I are only slightly involved with 4H. We aren't official leaders, but we attend all the meetings and discuss the group's focus with the leaders, who are very open to parents.

[pageta]

We do 4H and it meets once a month. Cub Scouts has a pack meeting once a month plus one or two den meetings, plus campouts and such. So for social time, I would vote Cub Scouts over 4H.

 

With 4H, you focus on specific areas and do them perfectly. For Cub Scouts, you are exposed to a wide range of things. For instance, 4H has a tree-leaf project where you collect 10 leaves from different trees and they have to be perfect (no disease or insect damage) and they have to fall into certain categories and you have to label them a certain way (including the scientific name and location of where you collected the leaf) and you have to figure out a way to put them in a binder and present them (glue, staples, contact paper, lamination? - and your 9-year old must be able to do these things perfectly) so you can get a ribbon for your project (ds was knocked down one level because he hadn't made an "appealing cover" for his notebook containing his leaf samples, which I thought was ridiculous because the project was identifying trees, not scrapbooking). For Cub Scouts, the boys are required to go on a hike and identify five different trees. It's practical, it's about identifying trees. The 4H project was 10% identifying trees and 90% doing all sorts of things to make your tree identification better than someone else's in order to win a ribbon at the fair (after all, either it's a maple tree or it's not).

 

If you're a hopeless perfectionist and you like to compete against other experts, then 4H is fun. If you want your kids to learn how to identify trees and other things you see on nature hikes and enjoy being out in nature and learning about it, Cub Scouts is a much better option. ETA: Cub Scouts isn't just about nature - the boys can focus on woodworking, academics, sports, art, a whole range of things.

 

But as said before, it also depends highly on which 4H club and Cub Scout group you are joining. It can vary a lot from group to group.

Edited October 23, 2012 by pageta

[shanvan]

I did both as a teen -- 4H and a BSA Explorer Post (conservation) -- and have a boy in a regualr BSA troop now. I woudln't agree that a scout is going to be a generalist. I see the merit badges as an opportunity to get a thorough intro and mentor into a field or skills, with the idea that if the scout finds something he's intrigued by, he goes further in depth on his own initiative. My son's friends for example, got tired of some of the more inexperienced adult leadership and the boys who are in it for their parents, and started camping and mtn biking on their own. With all the leadership skills they've developed over the years and the skills they've acquired in the outdoors, they are well on their way to acheiving their dream of backpacking or bikehiking europe. That part - leadership -- seems to be easier to develop in scouting than in 4h due to the structure of the meetings and activities. Boys are in charge of many group activities: day hikes, fund raisers, skill development of youngers etc. and many become teen camp counselors or activity station directors. Of course, that varies by club and pack/troop and you'd have to look the groups over carefully before you join to see if your objectives will be met.

 

See my previous post and you'll see we've found it easy to develop leadership skills in 4H. Aside from holding officer positions within the club, leading meetings, organizing and planning events, and leading club committees, Dc have the opportunity to attend state and county leadership training sessions and join the teen council plus take trips to Washington for National 4H meetings. Of course, leadership opportunities will vary depending on the actual club leaders and how much they are willing to delegate to the club members.

 

I'll also say your opportunities will be limited by how much initiative and imagination you use within whichever group you join. There are families in our club who have no idea of the opportunities available just b/c they won't actually communicate their ideas, or aren't willing to put the effort into making them happen. If you asked them, they would tell you there aren't many opportunities for leadership. I would imagine this could be true of scouting families too. Either way, it may not matter to the OP, if leadership is not one of her goals for her Ds.

 

Scouting sounds like it provides good leadership opportunities too. I think Op needs to do some more investigating to see what she has available locally.

[shanvan]

We do 4H and it meets once a month. Cub Scouts has a pack meeting once a month plus one or two den meetings, plus campouts and such. So for social time, I would vote Cub Scouts over 4H.

 

With 4H, you focus on specific areas and do them perfectly. For Cub Scouts, you are exposed to a wide range of things. For instance, 4H has a tree-leaf project where you collect 10 leaves from different trees and they have to be perfect (no disease or insect damage) and they have to fall into certain categories and you have to label them a certain way (including the scientific name and location of where you collected the leaf) and you have to figure out a way to put them in a binder and present them (glue, staples, contact paper, lamination? - and your 9-year old must be able to do these things perfectly) so you can get a ribbon for your project (ds was knocked down one level because he hadn't made an "appealing cover" for his notebook containing his leaf samples, which I thought was ridiculous because the project was identifying trees, not scrapbooking). For Cub Scouts, the boys are required to go on a hike and identify five different trees. It's practical, it's about identifying trees. The 4H project was 10% identifying trees and 90% doing all sorts of things to make your tree identification better than someone else's in order to win a ribbon at the fair (after all, either it's a maple tree or it's not).

 

If you're a hopeless perfectionist and you like to compete against other experts, then 4H is fun. If you want your kids to learn how to identify trees and other things you see on nature hikes and enjoy being out in nature and learning about it, Cub Scouts is a much better option. ETA: Cub Scouts isn't just about nature - the boys can focus on woodworking, academics, sports, art, a whole range of things.

 

But as said before, it also depends highly on which 4H club and Cub Scout group you are joining. It can vary a lot from group to group.

 

Wow, what a mischaracterization of 4H! We have not experienced a focus on perfection at all. Our experience has been that 4H focuses on goal setting and working toward a goal. Maybe your experience was due to the local leadership?

 

Both of my Dc have had evaluations I thought were 'off' at various times throughout their involvement in 4H. It was a good opportunity to teach them that they will not always receive appropriate recognition and need to be satisfied with their own efforts.

 

There have been time when the criticism was warranted, as well. Another opportunity to teach them that not everyone is going to give them glowing remarks about everything they do.

 

Overall, 4H has given them great learning opportunities. Part of that is learning to accept criticism at times. But, the vast majority of their experiences have been positive and rewarding.

[Unicorn.]

Well, it's common for CS to do little during the summer. And 4-H is really gung-ho during the summer, getting ready for fair. So, that might be a consideration. If you take long summer vacations, it might not work. But, you might actually consider both--they complement each other very well.

 

4-H does not meet during the summer here, at all. Cub Scouts usually don't either, but it depends on the den and the leaders. All of my son's friends, he has met through scouts. The cost factor will depend on each individual club, but 4-h can get very expensive, and very time consuming. Scouts is once a week, usually, plus a pack meeting, and possibly a den activity once a month. 4-h actually took up a lot more time. I have been involved as a leader in both, and I would tell you to go w/ scouts.

[Amy in NH]

4H.

 

1. It requires less $$ output from parents.

2. Children have more freedom for personal expression for achievement. Scouts is rather rigid in its demands for achievement.

3. It is more cooperative and less competitive.

4. AFAIK, 4H doesn't have over 1000 leaders implicated of sexual assault in a massive lawsuit.

 

:iagree:

 

4. 4-H has very strict leader screening guidelines and risk-management operating rules.

5. It is open to both genders and people of all religious persuasions - your child will be exposed to greater diversity.

6. Because of #5, your other children will be able to join make friends too, and you shouldn't have to run to lots of different meetings to accomplish that.

7. 4-H age levels (cloverbud, junior, intermediate, senior) mean more is expected of them at each level, but the membership composition of the group stays the same. You shouldn't get into a situation where the friend who is a year or two different in age ends up in a completely different group from year to year.

 

Different 4-H clubs can choose their own meeting schedules. Our club has met once per week in the past, this year the members voted to meet every other week.

 

Our club has no dues. We do group fundraisers to raise money to cover all our expenses. The supplies for every project we do are covered by our club account. We have done robotics, rocketry, astronomy, shooting sports, photography, etc, etc, etc. We do cooking and sewing every year. The boys love using the sewing machine (like a car!).

 

4-H projects are completed to the best of a member's ability. If they choose to take their project to a judging event, they will be judged against a standard (Danish system) and given appropriate feedback on how to improve their project in the future. The feedback is crucial for a youth to know what they can do better if they choose to continue in that project area. If they don't get feedback how will they grow?

 

4-H uses a recursive member-goal-setting, hands-on-project, reflection-on-performance system.

 

There are unlimited opportunities for leadership experiences for older youth.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Amy in NH

[Lady Florida.]

 

Your number four scares me!!! However my husband or myself would be with him at all times. We aren't the parents to just drop our kids off.

 

That works for CS, but after Webelos comes Boy Scouts. Parents are usually not allowed to stay at BS meetings, so you will have to just drop him off.

[Jennifer3141]

I think with BS, you get what you get troop wise. If you have awesome local troops with no pedophiles, GREAT. If you don't, well you are out of luck.

 

With 4-H, there is much more diversity within the groups. We just started a local group primarily for homeschoolers and we focus on organic farming/small animals/food. Pretty much everyone in our group does small animals but pretty much everyone has shown zero interest in showing them. Our 4H fair runs for 7 days. None of us really want to spend a WEEK living at the fair and stressing our animals out. So we don't. There is also a signing group we are participating with and a Lego group I need to check out. So for $10 a kid per year, we can join as many groups as we want to.

 

And the diversity thing... 4H takes it seriously. I have to hang a diversity poster at each meeting. I hand copies out to each member. A teeny part of each meeting is dedicated to making sure each kid knows they are welcome, no matter what "weird" thing they may have. As a leader, I've had it drilled into me that you accept and love every darn child that comes to your home and if that's too hard, reach out to the leadership and they will help you figure out a way. I love that. I want my kids to maybe not love every other child they meet, but I want them to know that there is a spectrum out there and friends can come from anywhere.

 

In BS, you'd better be a straight Christian or you cannot progress. And tough cookies to the rest of you. And if your parents are gay or atheists, you're not welcome either.

 

I also love the parliamentary procedures and leadership roles the kids are encouraged to go into right away. I love that the organization is trying to get kids to focus on science and the envrionment.

 

4H doesn't sell nationally so you won't be forced to sell popcorn or magazines unless your group decides to fundraise for something.

[Jennifer3141]

I think with BS, you get what you get troop wise. If you have awesome local troops with no pedophiles, GREAT. If you don't, well you are out of luck.

 

With 4-H, there is much more diversity within the groups. We just started a local group primarily for homeschoolers and we focus on organic farming/small animals/food. Pretty much everyone in our group does small animals but pretty much everyone has shown zero interest in showing them. Our 4H fair runs for 7 days. None of us really want to spend a WEEK living at the fair and stressing our animals out. So we don't. There is also a signing group we are participating with and a Lego group I need to check out. So for $10 a kid per year, we can join as many groups as we want to.

 

And the diversity thing... 4H takes it seriously. I have to hang a diversity poster at each meeting. I hand copies out to each member. A teeny part of each meeting is dedicated to making sure each kid knows they are welcome, no matter what "weird" thing they may have. As a leader, I've had it drilled into me that you accept and love every darn child that comes to your home and if that's too hard, reach out to the leadership and they will help you figure out a way. I love that. I want my kids to maybe not love every other child they meet, but I want them to know that there is a spectrum out there and friends can come from anywhere.

 

In BS, you'd better be a straight Christian or you cannot progress. And tough cookies to the rest of you. And if your parents are gay or atheists, you're not welcome either.

 

I also love the parliamentary procedures and leadership roles the kids are encouraged to go into right away. I love that the organization is trying to get kids to focus on science and the envrionment.

 

4H doesn't sell nationally so you won't be forced to sell popcorn or magazines unless your group decides to fundraise.

[Jennifer3141]

Yeah those are my issues with BS. Not to mention my husband says it reminds him of the Hitler military youth groups. I'm not so hung up on the pedophile thing. That can happen in any group. But I am not crazy about the rest of it.

 

I like the message of 4H and the overall feel of it. We are currently forming a HS 4H group. I'm looking forward to it.

 

Wendy, we're going to have to compare notes! Our first group meeting is November 13. We are going to meet once, maybe twice in November, once in December because of the craziness and then see what we want to do project-wise over the winter.

[sparrow]

n/m

Edited October 23, 2012 by sparrow
Self editing. Too snarky.

[Plateau Mama]

Cub Scouts is the cheapest activity my kids do. Yes you buy the uniform, the blue shirts for tigers-bears (3 years), the tan shirt for Webelos (1.5 years + boy scouts). My dues were $57 this year. That is all I will pay unless he goes to a camp. Everything else is paid for, everything. Yes, we sell popcorn. One afternoon he sold $850. We bought none, we didn't sell to family. That's it.

 

So my shirt, dues and winter camp = a year of fun for less than the cost of a season of baseball. Heck it's less than the cost of a week of summer camp.

 

We do 2 den meetings a month, one pack meeting plus several totally optional events a year (hiking, bowling, rocket launch). Our next 4 den meetings are Turkey Shoot(my favorite event), lock in/overnight (parent too), pinewood derby, Blue & Gold.

[Uff Da!]

Reasons I like 4-H:

1)more variety in kids, not just one gender, one age. The younger kids have role models and the older kids develop leadership skills.
2) kids can pick their individual topics to study early on. This means that there can be small project groups that form for individual topics. Because the kids give demonstrations and do exhibits, friends learn about each others passions even if they are not interested in pursuing each other's interest.
3) kids start giving demonstrations at a young age and develop public speaking skills
4) Lots of county, state and national opportunities for kids as they get older
5) Record keeping- This is not my favorite activity but it does develop skills that will transfer- from keeping "track of things" to essay writing skills that are useful for when applying for college or jobs, writing grants and so forth
6) As the kids become older and busier, they can opt to be an "independent 4-Her". It means they are no longer part of a club but can still participate in county, state and national activities.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Brightening

[AdventureMoms]

I guess I must have missed this in my son's experience. Will the BSA be coming to my home and quizzing me soon? What about a gay grandparent? We've got one of those that is very proud of our scout.

 

Technically gay parents are allowed as long as they do not want to be involved in leadership positions, though most gay parents choose not to have their boys participate. BSA has very clearly stated that gay and atheist scouts are not welcome, however.

[shanvan]

The only downside I saw with 4h is that the club sizes tend to be very very small, which limits the leadership opportunities within the club and the fundraising potential (there is always that one kid in fity who outfundraises the rest of the group, maybe he's in your club maybe he's not). Plenty of opportunities at the district/council/national level for both, but the scouts have the philosophy of fundraisers to pay for them, where the club didn't. That varies by club and troop leadership of course, and the person investigating will have to determine how the finances work out for their family.

 

Yes, I see your point on the fundraising. OTOH, we did some fundraising last year and I'm at the point where I've had my fill. I think I'd rather just pay for my Dc, but I might change my mind if costs got high. We were fundraising for a one time trip, it's not usually something we do. Our leader has dog food companies that donate to the club and so does the local kennel club, which is why it costs very little.

 

I wish our club was still small. We needed more members and Ds did some marketing, but now we are up to 26 kids at last count. imagine 26 kids, 26 dogs, and various parents all in a one room (though it is large) training building for meetings-- :willy_nilly: -- definitely not relaxing! It's not really as conducive to learning as the small group we used to have was. Now we are having issues with meeting the differing needs of members. We have absolute beginners who cannot control their dogs (and allow them to jump all over, slip out of collars, and generally cause mayhem). Then we have experienced kids who also take training classes and compete in AKC events. The leaders are currently trying to adjust to suit the needs of so many different ability levels. Ds has some ideas and he's going to pitch them at the next meeting.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

We are a 4H and Scouting family. I don't think there is anything wrong with either program. I like them both and am glad my children have had the opportunity to participate in each.

 

Both have expenses and those expenses will vary depending upon the depth of involvement and how invested in the program your child and family will become.

 

About 4H - DS and DD both did entomology. On the outside you would think that project would be relatively inexpensive. Catch bugs, mount bugs, show bugs. A cardboard display case, which costs around $10 is great for a kid who shows at the local 4H fair and that's it. They do not meet muster, however, for kids showing on the state or national level. Those cases must be wood and glass and the cost can get up there. Even homemade cases must meet strict standards and are not inexpensive. At present DS has 10 filled cases. Each case cost around $30 to make. DS is showing at the state and national levels and even now he is being told that in order to progress he needs to move toward more professional, standardized cases. Those cases may cost us $70 or more a piece. That will be an immediate investment of $700.

 

DS also is in the shotgun and rifle shooting 4H project. Each shooting weekend costs around $30-45 depending upon the range fees, type of ammo and amount of ammo. If DS continues with shooting at the state or national level the fees increase.

 

DD did photography. The first year her little inexpensive camera was fine. But in our area, if you want to be in the running for blue ribbons, state fair eligible or what have you you need good quality equipment - cameras, printers, frames, matting, etc. There are people who spend $100s of dollars for photography projects.

 

Both have done Aerospace/rocketry. An inexpensive year will cost around $50 - rockets, paint, engines, wadding, etc. But as they aged and progressed through the levels the judges expect bigger, fancier, better rockets. A level 3 rocket may cost over $100.

 

We don't do livestock so I can't give numbers for those projects.

 

These are just examples. I would like to reiterate that it depends solely on how deep and competitive the 4Her wants to be. If the 4Her is happy just participating and having a good time then the expenses will be minimal. If the 4Her wants to get the ribbons and go to state, the costs and time involvement will be commensurate.

 

At least that's how it is here. It may be different in other regions.

 

4H also has registration fees, books fees, fundraisers, etc. Each 4Her is to keep detailed financial records for every project and area of interest and submit those at the end of the 4H year.

 

Yes, there are many opportunities to develop leadership in 4H. There are club officer positions, community projects to volunteer for, and then project leadership opportunities. All 4Hers are encouraged to work on leadership skills. However, in my 9 years of 4H involvement I have seen 1 4Her develop a project related leadership project. It was in biking and doubled as a Boy Scout project.

 

Our state offers a leadership conference every winter for junior high school kids. That weekend costs upwards of $150. 4Hers are encouraged to fundraise to cover the expenses. Our local 4H summer camp is also about $300 for the week.

 

Then there are the 4H group t-shirts - one for the main group, one for the robotics group, one for the Lego League group, one for the leadership conference - you get the point.

 

--

I got distracted by the baby and have lost my train of thought. I apologize.

 

I guess my point is that 4H can be very expensive. :)

Edited October 23, 2012 by The Dragon Academy

[ms3mama]

My 7 year old son is in his 2nd year of scouts and loves it. He has an awesome troup though and it all depends who the leaders are to your experience but that can b said with anything right?

Our local 4-h was too far and none of my other children were interested.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

That works for CS, but after Webelos comes Boy Scouts. Parents are usually not allowed to stay at BS meetings, so you will have to just drop him off.

 

Not around here. We have lots of parents attend the weekly meetings. Some weeks it's totally chaotic. Ten boys and 12 or 13 parents at a meeting because sometimes both mom and dad show up.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

6) As the kids become older and busier, they can opt to be an "independent 4-Her". It means they are no longer part of a club but can still participate in county, state and national activities.

 

I find this interesting. There isn't one 4H opportunity in our area that doesn't require an active club membership. In order to show in the county fair you must have attended a minimum of 51% of club meetings and activities. In order to show at state you must have proven success and participation at the county level. A youth cannot go to congress without having county experience.

 

I am surprised at how divergent 4H experiences and requirements are depending upon location.

[Jennifer3141]

I was in a 4H group. We dropped out only because we just had too much on our plate at that time and the meetings were on a day we had 2 other things to do already. The one thing I liked about it was that you could do a little or a lot. There were a lot of opportunities, but it was always optional. Our leader was great. Our group focus was science. So we did science experiments during our meetings.

 

We did a dog training 4H group last year. It was alright but there was no opportunity for socialization among the kids. After a year, we still don't know anyone else's name but my DD can work with our dog much better. :001_smile:

 

But my kids really fell in love with growing food and canning and freezing stuff this summer and they want to share that love with other kids.

[DawnM]

My husband is there every single time he can be. HOWEVER, most of the men in our troop are trustworthy and personal friends of ours. There is only one right now that I hesitate to allow near my kids too much. I am really, really hoping he leaves.

 

Dawn

 

That works for CS, but after Webelos comes Boy Scouts. Parents are usually not allowed to stay at BS meetings, so you will have to just drop him off.

[shanvan]

I find this interesting. There isn't one 4H opportunity in our area that doesn't require an active club membership. In order to show in the county fair you must have attended a minimum of 51% of club meetings and activities. In order to show at state you must have proven success and participation at the county level. A youth cannot go to congress without having county experience.

 

I am surprised at how divergent 4H experiences and requirements are depending upon location.

 

I think the responses here show that the OP is probably going to have to investigate, visit meetings, and ask questions for both 4H and scouts. Additionally she may need to try out different scouting troops and 4H clubs before she finds a good fit for her Ds. I have neighbors who hated one of the scout troops they tried and initially characterized the entire program based on that one troop. Eventually they tried another troop and found it was a far better fit for their Ds. I've heard the same about 4H clubs too.

 

OR, maybe OP will get lucky and find the perfect group right away!

[DawnM]

This is how we feel too.

 

Even if you pay the $25 dues we owe AND the $100 instead of selling popcorn, there isn't anything else out there that gives you the bang for the buck that scouts does.

 

One week of camp, including food and overnight, is $225. I can't find a day camp around here for that price in the summer.

 

Cubs meet twice per month, boyscouts meet between 3-4 times per month. They also do a LOT outside of meetings. Camping, hiking, get-togethers, etc...

 

Dawn

 

Cub Scouts is the cheapest activity my kids do. Yes you buy the uniform, the blue shirts for tigers-bears (3 years), the tan shirt for Webelos (1.5 years + boy scouts). My dues were $57 this year. That is all I will pay unless he goes to a camp. Everything else is paid for, everything. Yes, we sell popcorn. One afternoon he sold $850. We bought none, we didn't sell to family. That's it.

 

So my shirt, dues and winter camp = a year of fun for less than the cost of a season of baseball. Heck it's less than the cost of a week of summer camp.

 

We do 2 den meetings a month, one pack meeting plus several totally optional events a year (hiking, bowling, rocket launch). Our next 4 den meetings are Turkey Shoot(my favorite event), lock in/overnight (parent too), pinewood derby, Blue & Gold.

[Lily_Grace]

I think with BS, you get what you get troop wise. If you have awesome local troops with no pedophiles, GREAT. If you don't, well you are out of luck.

 

With 4-H, there is much more diversity within the groups. We just started a local group primarily for homeschoolers and we focus on organic farming/small animals/food. Pretty much everyone in our group does small animals but pretty much everyone has shown zero interest in showing them. Our 4H fair runs for 7 days. None of us really want to spend a WEEK living at the fair and stressing our animals out. So we don't. There is also a signing group we are participating with and a Lego group I need to check out. So for $10 a kid per year, we can join as many groups as we want to.

 

And the diversity thing... 4H takes it seriously. I have to hang a diversity poster at each meeting. I hand copies out to each member. A teeny part of each meeting is dedicated to making sure each kid knows they are welcome, no matter what "weird" thing they may have. As a leader, I've had it drilled into me that you accept and love every darn child that comes to your home and if that's too hard, reach out to the leadership and they will help you figure out a way. I love that. I want my kids to maybe not love every other child they meet, but I want them to know that there is a spectrum out there and friends can come from anywhere.

 

In BS, you'd better be a straight Christian or you cannot progress. And tough cookies to the rest of you. And if your parents are gay or atheists, you're not welcome either.

 

I also love the parliamentary procedures and leadership roles the kids are encouraged to go into right away. I love that the organization is trying to get kids to focus on science and the envrionment.

 

4H doesn't sell nationally so you won't be forced to sell popcorn or magazines unless your group decides to fundraise for something.

 

I think you might be slightly misinformed about the Boy Scouts. It does not accept Christians only. There is a caveat in the code that requires them to profess a belief in a god and be 'morally straight', which the BSA has defined with conventional Christian values.

 

The boy scouts are also a separate organization from the cub scouts. The cub scouts are a family program. Much of the achievements are done with a combination of home and den work, and parents can sign off. In the boy scouts, the boys organize themselves into patrols inside the troop and have leadership roles starting at about 1st class. Patrol leader, assistant..they work their way up to the point where they are comfortable leading a large group, something necessary for eagle projects. The boys are encouraged to work as a team and independently away from the family unit - learning to grow their own wings, so to speak. Instead of parents signing books, boys find a merit badge counselor to work with them.

 

Cub scouts sell popcorn as a fundraiser for the pack. Boy Scouts often have various fundraisers that pay for troop activities. Ours sell Christmas Trees.

 

I do think cub scouts is great for kids that don't get exposure to different skills and arts at home AND they are in a pack that strictly follows rules and regulations. Otherwise its a headache. I think Boy Scouts have a way to go in their diversity and acceptance department but that the good they offer is something that is a rarity in other organizations where we live.

[Lady Florida.]

Not around here. We have lots of parents attend the weekly meetings. Some weeks it's totally chaotic. Ten boys and 12 or 13 parents at a meeting because sometimes both mom and dad show up.

 

My husband is there every single time he can be. HOWEVER, most of the men in our troop are trustworthy and personal friends of ours. There is only one right now that I hesitate to allow near my kids too much. I am really, really hoping he leaves.

 

Dawn

 

Must be a regional thing then. The troops around here don't allow parents at any activities (meetings, campouts, whatever) unless they're official volunteers.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Google "4-H sexual abuse" or "'insert your favorite club here' sexual abuse" and you'll find stuff.

 

 

I just did this and oh my word. I quit looking after quickly scrolling through 18 pages. :(

[Lady Florida.]

Must be a regional thing then. The troops around here don't allow parents at any activities (meetings, campouts, whatever) unless they're official volunteers.

 

Quoting myself rather than editing:

 

Maybe it's a CYA thing, meaning if you're an official volunteer you've been vetted and had a background check. Either way, the OP should probably find out what is expected/allowed of BSA parents in her area.

[happyWImom]

I haven't read all of the other responses, but I wanted to reply, because we have had such a positive experience with 4H.

 

My dc have been in 4H for 3 years, and I cannot say enough good things about it. It promotes leadership, independence, creativity, community service..... I could go on & on.

 

I must say, that I think the club you belong to does make a difference in your experience, though. The club we were in this year & last year is new to us, and a vast improvement over our past club. There are 3 club leaders, as well as numerous project leaders, which really makes a difference. If a child wants to learn something new, such as knitting, woodworking or photography, we have project leaders that help them, and they work with them throughout the year, so that they will have a project for fair.

 

Anyway, I could say more, but I need to get back to school (which, btw, you can use lots of your school stuff as 4H projects!).

 

I don't know anything about Cub Scouts, so I can't compare the 2.

[sparrow]

Technically gay parents are allowed as long as they do not want to be involved in leadership positions, though most gay parents choose not to have their boys participate. BSA has very clearly stated that gay and atheist scouts are not welcome, however.

 

I really don't see how we expect things to change if diverse and forward thinking families are not involved.

[shanvan]

It's simply not true that a boy must be a Christian to advance in Scouts. My last board of review was with a pantheist. A well-spoken pantheist, who had given great thought to his views. It was an interesting BoR. My last Eagle BoR (I'm in charge of Eagle Candidates for half of western CO) was with a young man who didn't have a well-defined religion, but was able to articulate a belief in God--that's all that Scouts requires. Great kid, who will go far.

 

Our discussion about 4-H is complicated by the fact that each state (and most counties) do their judging just a bit differently. Our county uses the Danish system too, as do most CO counties. However, 1st, 2nd, 3rd ribbons are also given out in each category and then Grand and Reserve. The child's goals must be project related, so no talking about piano goals in a hog book (I judge 65 hog books most years). Now, if a child wanted to list a goal of doing better in public demonstrations and listed club demonstrations AND piano recitals, that would fly.

 

One thing I like about our newer record books is a place for 4-H community service and then another page(s) for non-4-H service. Ds has far more from Scouts than 4-H, since Scouts puts more of an emphasis on it. Helping with friends' Eagle projects adds up...

 

4-hers here are required to show at county fair. If the child will be gone (ds missed one year due to a Europe trip) he is expected to turn in his project early, along with his record keeping. Dd had to miss her interview this year because of work. Friend of ours was at Philmont Scout Ranch so could not show his dog--in order to complete his project, he did an extra display about his JRT.

 

Both BSA and 4-H do extensive background checks on their volunteers. I just spent a half hour doing a recommendation for a 4-H mom

 

Hitler Youth? I don't see how someone can liken doing a flag ceremony at the beginning of a meeting as Hitler Youth? BSA has a Pledge, as does 4-H. Both start meetings with the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

Dropping kids off? CS, BSA and 4-H all encourage parents to stay. Tiger Cubs require it. Last night at our troop meeting we actually had NO Scoutmasters. The SM had run late at work, one ASM was off coaching x-c, one ASM had too much homework (college kid) and one ASM was covering Gun Club. The boys did the meeting, with a handfull of parents there, all are committee members. The Senior Patrol Leader had planned the activity, took the boys through the flag ceremony and wound up the meeting. They actually didn't need the parents there, as it should be. One committee member graded science exams and the Advancement Chair was reading a book on her Kindle. I was late as I ran into a friend at the library and then had to pick up my dd at orchestra. A college kid who is a committee member just hung out in the back, jumping in where he was needed--helping kids with the planes for the Aviation badge. The SMs didn't worry about not being there, knowing that there would be parents around. One of the boys even led a moment of silence for a former mayor who was killed in a motorcycle accident over the weekend. The boy wanted everyone to reflect on the fact that Rick had not been wearing a helmet...

 

Both groups are great and I hope that everyone checks out both and picks what works best for their families--perhaps it is BOTH! It is in our household.

 

Exactly re the bold above. I've never, in 5 years, been asked to pay a 'registration fee' for 4H. The only mandatory money we've put out is the $5 yearly dues and the $10 fee for the county dog show (which was optional,though the kids weren't eligible for special county awards if they did not participate). Not sure who mentioned the registration fee, but I know it isn't done in our area.

 

Any other expenditures were our choice (don't even ask how much I spent on supplies for a syrafoam cake they made for a club display one year...I still have it in the basement...the $$$ I spent are making me hang onto it in hopes it gets used again!)

 

OP is going to have to do some investigating in order to know just how things work in her area. I'm glad to hear that parents are welcome at your scout meetings. It would give me pause if any group told me I was not welcome to sit in.

 

Your 4H sounds like slightly more pressure than ours. I still think it is a great fit for many people, but scouting can be the perfect fit for others. :D

[FriedClams]

We've tried both 4H and Scouting. 4H was a joke here. Poorly organized. Not good leadership. Difficult to get information. It was a waste of time.

 

We tried to get into Girl Scouts. Cliquey would be an understatement. It was insane.

 

We're now in our third year of Cub Scouting. I now a Cubmaster, DH is on the committee, etc. We are very involved. We love it as a family and it's a blast for the kids. I really enjoy the people I work with and the friends we've all made through Scouting. I appreciate the training requirements and youth protection policies. We have great leadership in our area and excellent programs. We're also one of the smaller groups - but we make it with great parents and volunteers. Another aspect of Scouting I love is the emphasis on boys earning their way - even as young as Cubs.

 

I will say the biggest factor for a family enjoying a program is investment. Take the time to participate, to volunteer, to help. Attend the meetings. Ask to help. The parents whose kids have left Scouting are the same ones who saw around the back of the room at meetings playing on their phones. They weren't invested - so neither were their kids. If you want your kids to buy in - you have to also.

[Anne in CA]

4-H. I am very disillusioned about scouts at this time.

 

 

If you never have a problem BSA is a great program, but like Paypal, if you have a real problem you are in trouble.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Anne in Ore

[AdventureMoms]

I really don't see how we expect things to change if diverse and forward thinking families are not involved.

 

I don't see how BSA can expect diverse and forward thinking families to be involved if they intend to continue with a policy of discrimination. When they change their policy, we will reconsider. In the mean time there are many other organizations that are more worth our time.

 

And FWIW, I know many diverse and forward thinking families do have their boys in scouts. Hopefully those families will have a positive effect. But it's a bit too personal for most gay parents (us included) to financially support an organization that chooses to discriminate against children who are like us.

[Jennifer3141]

4-H. I am very disillusioned about scouts at this time. I am so sorry I spent thousands of $$$ and hundreds of hours of my time and because of a corrupt leadership some real junk happened to my son. I would say more but I may end up suing. BSA protects leaders, not boys IME. Youth Protection is a joke in my council.

 

 

If you never have a problem BSA is a great program, but like Paypal, if you have a real problem you are in trouble.

 

 

Anne, I am so sorry for whatever you've all gone through.