S/O: What constitutes middle class?

[Crimson Wife]

I think part of the reason it's so difficult to come up with clear, specific parameters for what defines "middle class" is because there's such a variance in how people choose to spend (or not spend) their money. Unless you can see a family's financial statements (or they're very obviously at one end of the spectrum or the other), you're really only guessing where they fit if you just look at "how they live".

 

I think that the combo of an expensive lifestyle plus certain generally lucrative occupations, an outsider can safely make some assumptions about the family being rich. A specialist physician married to a banker, or a partner in a corporate law firm married to a tenured college professor, or other "power couple" who have the whole yuppie lifestyle may not have as much money in the bank as a family with a similar income and more modest tastes, but they're a lot better off than the waitress married to the janitor KWIM?

[Crimson Wife]

I grew thinking I was middle class (but now I'm wondering). We lived in a reasonable in a 1500sq ft house that we owned. I'm 35 years old and I can tell you that if I had known you when I was a kid I would have thought your family must have been RICH, because NONE of the kids that I went to school with got all of those things except for a few rich ones.

 

So if I would've been considered "rich", what would you have made of some of my classmates clad head-to-toe in Benetton (this was the '80's, LOL!) being chauffeured in their mom's BMW from their McMansion to the stable where their horse was boarded for their dressage lessons and yakking about their upcoming two-week ski vacation in the Alps? :rolleyes:

[historically accurate]

So if I would've been considered "rich", what would you have made of some of my classmates clad head-to-toe in Benetton (this was the '80's, LOL!) being chauffeured in their mom's BMW from their McMansion to the stable where their horse was boarded for their dressage lessons and yakking about their upcoming two-week ski vacation in the Alps? :rolleyes:

 

 

They would've been the "very rich". From where I was in the social standings, everyone up the income ladder was rich or very rich. I grew up in the poor or lower middle class, depending on the local/national economy (my parents both worked in a car factory). Some years we were flush -- meaning a nice Christmas and usually a vacation, as my parents loved to travel; one year my parents lost their house and we lived in a tent over the summer/camper in the winter.

[jennynd]

So if I would've been considered "rich", what would you have made of some of my classmates clad head-to-toe in Benetton (this was the '80's, LOL!) being chauffeured in their mom's BMW from their McMansion to the stable where their horse was boarded for their dressage lessons and yakking about their upcoming two-week ski vacation in the Alps? :rolleyes:

 

It is all relative, right? When I grow up, I considered any one has car is rich. When my Mom grow up, anyone has an egg for dinner was rich.

Now, from every indication, I make the top 5% income, and I don't feel it at ll. I am looking at those people make more than me and say they are rich, I am not

Edited October 23, 2012 by jennynd

[Caroline]

It is all relative, right? When I grow up, I considered any one has car is rich. When my Mom grow up, anyone has an egg for dinner was rich.

Now, from every indication, I make the top 5% income, and I don't feel it at ll. I am looking at those people make more than me and say they are rich, I am not

 

Exactly! I went to high school with homeless people and people who lived in public housing. I was wealthy compared to them. However, my sister went to dance camp with Surrey Hobart. (Yes, the Kitchen Aid Hobarts.) Compared to her, we weren't wealthy.

[QueenCat]

Exactly! I went to high school with homeless people and people who lived in public housing. I was wealthy compared to them. However, my sister went to dance camp with Surrey Hobart. (Yes, the Kitchen Aid Hobarts.) Compared to her, we weren't wealthy.

 

Although I don't recall knowing anyone who was homeless, my classmates were varied. I would think every school (at least middle & high), the way our city was set up, would have had a pretty good variety of economic classes in it.

[GWOB]

So if I would've been considered "rich", what would you have made of some of my classmates clad head-to-toe in Benetton (this was the '80's, LOL!) being chauffeured in their mom's BMW from their McMansion to the stable where their horse was boarded for their dressage lessons and yakking about their upcoming two-week ski vacation in the Alps? :rolleyes:

 

Coming from a family that was often on unemployment/WIC/food stamps, despite having 2 full-time workers in the house (dad built oil rigs and/or installed sprinkler systems and mom worked as a secretary), yes, you were in fact rich. There was never any money for outside classes for me. Vacations consisted of driving in a beat-up old car to visit family. Of the 18 years I spent in my parents' home, we had insurance about 3 years, maybe. And shall we discuss the years I lived in low-income housing, where as an 8yo I regularly saw drug deals? Again, you were rich.

 

Look, I said before that some would consider us, based solely on income, as upper class. We busted our bums and majorly lucked out to make it to this point, but we solidly reject the "upper class" label. I don't think all "upper class" people are slum lords or shallow, but we solidly identify with middle class values. Our kids know they will have to work for everything they have. My kids will not expect a darn thing they haven't worked for. They will be raised to respect people based on the content of their character, not the size of their bank accounts or the pedigree of their college education.

 

And Catwoman, you know I love you, but no one would have ever been considered middle class if they drove a Cadillac. :lol: Hondas were/are middle class. The 15+ year old Nissan we drove with differently-colored body panels was low/working class.

[Pawz4me]

So if I would've been considered "rich", what would you have made of some of my classmates clad head-to-toe in Benetton (this was the '80's, LOL!) being chauffeured in their mom's BMW from their McMansion to the stable where their horse was boarded for their dressage lessons and yakking about their upcoming two-week ski vacation in the Alps? :rolleyes:

 

My father grew up during the Depression. He said they were considered wealthy because they always had plenty to eat (they farmed). It's all about perspective.

[elegantlion]

Growing up our area had a few what I'd consider rich people. Our area as suburban, great area, lots of upper middle class. We were middle to lower middle class imo, probably a little less money than those around us. Dad worked, mom stayed home. Two cars, but mom didn't drive. We took real vacations in the summer, like two week RV vacations. They were great.

 

Dad worked at one job most of his adult life, that gave him stability and benefits. But money was tight, looking back I'm amazed we had a good lifestyle on his income.

 

But we couldn't afford lessons or IZOD or Polo, however, I never worried about the bills being paid, our house getting foreclosed, heat and AC, or if my dad would lose his job. I had a very stable childhood in that respect.

 

The truly wealthy people were not concentrated in our area. They lived elsewhere, sent their kids to private schools, or a few select districts.

 

The book "The Millionaire Next Door" can be revealing about who is wealthy around you. You really don't know. Credit allowed a lot of people to play wealthy who really weren't. The wealthy person in your neighborhood may not have anything different than you.

 

Our same area, which only had a McDonalds and pizza place growing up, is now is the center of consumeristic conflagration. You can barely get through some of the intersections because of all the stores. The high end shopping district for the area is now just down the street from my high school. It's ridiculously overgrown.

[SKL]

The wealthy person in your neighborhood may not have anything different than you.

 

True. And if we're talking about classifying people, what's more important - the lifestyle they actually keep, or the one they "could afford"? Or maybe a little of both?

 

Personally I was born into what most here would consider a poor family. My mom was smart about money and both parents worked, so we eventually moved into lower middle class, and maybe even middle middle (for whatever that's worth). Now that they are both retired and subsisting on social security and still have credit card debt and still live in a 100-year-old house that they can't afford to fix up, I guess some would call them poor again.

 

My upbringing was such that basic needs were met, but wants were either denied or provided as a special treat, e.g., birthday/Christmas gift. Money was always tight and I always knew it. I have memories as a little girl watching my mom do the "budgeting" at the kitchen table, laughing off the stress with jokes like "a dollar now, a dollar when they catch me" and "robbin' Peter to pay Paul." I heard "no" so often, I didn't dare ask for extras that many kids took for granted. This is the mindset that has stuck with me over the years.

 

I took out student loans and got lots of education and graduated $85K in debt. A couple years later I bought a house jointly with friends (in a solidly middle-class neighborhood btw), so on paper I had over $200K in debt. I was also helping my parents pay off their mountains of credit card debt. It was oppressive. I developed a truly penny-pinching budget and put every spare dollar toward paying down debt until it was all gone. Meanwhile I lived and thought like a "poor" person in many respects, even though I had a 6-figure salary. Once my debt was paid off, I continued to live frugally to build up savings. My only indulgence was to travel about once a year. Oh, and we hired maids to do the big jobs once a month, since I worked such long hours I couldn't always get to them. And I increased my charitable donations. OK, so I'm looking even more middle class now. Then I adopted my kids and, being a single mom, hired a nanny and later put them into a good academic daycare/preschool followed by Lutheran school. I pay for them to take coached lessons (recreational only) and have memberships to rec center, museum, zoo. After taking no vacations for 5 years, we've started traveling again. My kids share a bunkbed in a small bedroom. I buy half of my kids' clothes on eBay but they get a lot of stuff new, because I don't have time to bargain shop. Amazon.com is our friend. I donate all their stuff to my nieces once we're done with it. For myself, I'm still the same. Old jeans and t-shirts. My coats and my Saturn are 10+ years old with years to go. Once every few years I order a pair of leather shoes from Naturalizer because I have wide feet. No make-up, no fancy hairdos. I could easily pass for lower class if you met me during my wanderings. My house is in need of much work, which I don't have time to attend to. But on the other hand, I don't have day-to-day money worries. Work worries, kid worries, but not money worries.

 

Based on my lifestyle, I'm middle class. However, all the number analyses would put me as upper class. I have no debt, a few bucks in the bank, and business assets. (No, I am not a slumlord.) I pay so much in taxes, I must be rich, yet I net only a few thousand in a good year, cash-wise. So maybe I'm actually poor? Who cares anyway? Nobody needs to know what I have on my personal financial statement. It doesn't change the fact that I still drag my garbage to the treelawn on Wednesday mornings.

 

I think my kids are growing up a bit spoiled, though. I'm pretty sure they take a lot of things for granted - a room full of toys and clothes, plenty of nutritious food, getting to go places and do things. They don't have many chores and they don't see me scrubbing floors. They don't have to work hard to entertain themselves most of the time. They don't see me "robbing Peter to pay Paul" and they don't have to wait to get needs met (such as glasses, which I didn't get until I was 8 despite being legally blind). They get driven everywhere. I'm a little uncomfortable with the level of comfort they have, because it's so different from my childhood. But it is what it is. Hopefully I'm not raising future slumlords. :tongue_smilie:

[Pawz4me]

The book "The Millionaire Next Door" can be revealing about who is wealthy around you. You really don't know. Credit allowed a lot of people to play wealthy who really weren't. The wealthy person in your neighborhood may not have anything different than you.

 

This is very true, and I would add that sometimes the wealthy person in your neighborhood may have much less than you.

 

My mother lives in an older home and drives an inexpensive compact car. She's clean and neat but hates to shop so has an older wardrobe. Because of her upbringing, she's all about using stuff up and wearing it out before buying new stuff. Her net worth is very close to $1 million. Trust me when I say that no one would ever guess, and many would likely judge her as just scraping by.

[DawnM]

And see, this is where I think we get on our high horse and talk about how class is a state of mind and not a number, blah, blah, blah, but that is EXACTLY what I think of the "slumlords" mentality.

 

One can be a wealthy person or highly educated AND a great humanitarian. I have known many.

 

In fact, I have personally met very few with the slumlord mentality.

 

You are not raising future slumlords. You are raising children with your belief system, which I assume includes caring deeply for others in need.

 

Hopefully I'm not raising future slumlords. :tongue_smilie:

[FaithManor]

This is very true, and I would add that sometimes the wealthy person in your neighborhood may have much less than you.

 

My mother lives in an older home and drives an inexpensive compact car. She's clean and neat but hates to shop so has an older wardrobe. Because of her upbringing, she's all about using stuff up and wearing it out before buying new stuff. Her net worth is very close to $1 million. Trust me when I say that no one would ever guess, and many would likely judge her as just scraping by.

 

 

This reminds me of Mr. P. At one time, I did some consulting for an upscale music store in the city. Mr. P. would come in to buy musical instruments for his grandchildren and the number of them was something like a small tribe! He adored music and wanted to see to it that all of his grands were given lessons on at least one instrument if not several. He dressed like a very, very poor person and occasionally, new sales staff wouldn't know what to make of it until he opened his wallet and showed them that he had $10,000 dollars CASH with him. (It would be in his wallet, in his socks, in the inner pockets of his jacket, his pants pocket, in his t-shirt under his flannel shirt, etc. hidden all over him.) The man once bought a baby grand piano for his church - Yamaha and in the $15,000.00 range - WITH CASH.)

 

He was a sweet ole guy and we all suspected he was loaded, however, we were shocked to find out that when he died his stock portfolio was worth over 10 million. Yet, his old farmhouse looked like it was on it's last leg and his car was a beater. He paid tuition to the local Lutheran schools for his children and grandchildren, put ALL of them through college, and gave them all downpayments for their homes. He was sooooo generous with his family. But, he rarely bought anything for himself. I think he had discovered the joy of using that money for others and was very content with not having much to take care of himself.

 

His "emergency" cash fund - $51,000.00 and change found in his house after he died. It was stashed all over the place, even in holes in the walls and some of it was in highly collectible silver coins.

 

Great guy! But his neighbors never expected he was wealthy. They assumed he was a poor old farmer that didn't have two pennies to rub together.

 

Faith

[Scarlett]

I have a story like that too. A man I know came home from college to work in his family's retail furniture store. He was sitting with several other salesmen waiting for customers when up drove a farm truck with a pig trailer attached--covered in poo. A woman gets out...she is dressed in overalls and covered in poo as well.

 

Every salesman scattered leaving this one for 'the new kid'. He said, 'May I help you?' As she pulls out a huge wad of cash from her bra she says, 'Yeah, I just sold my pigs and I want to buy all new furniture.'

 

:lol:

 

It was a nice commission.

 

He said he never again pre-judged a person's means.

[Georgiana Daniels]

Growing up our area had a few what I'd consider rich people. Our area as suburban, great area, lots of upper middle class. We were middle to lower middle class imo, probably a little less money than those around us. Dad worked, mom stayed home. Two cars, but mom didn't drive. We took real vacations in the summer, like two week RV vacations. They were great.

 

Dad worked at one job most of his adult life, that gave him stability and benefits. But money was tight, looking back I'm amazed we had a good lifestyle on his income.

 

But we couldn't afford lessons or IZOD or Polo, however, I never worried about the bills being paid, our house getting foreclosed, heat and AC, or if my dad would lose his job. I had a very stable childhood in that respect.

 

The truly wealthy people were not concentrated in our area. They lived elsewhere, sent their kids to private schools, or a few select districts.

 

The book "The Millionaire Next Door" can be revealing about who is wealthy around you. You really don't know. Credit allowed a lot of people to play wealthy who really weren't. The wealthy person in your neighborhood may not have anything different than you.

 

Our same area, which only had a McDonalds and pizza place growing up, is now is the center of consumeristic conflagration. You can barely get through some of the intersections because of all the stores. The high end shopping district for the area is now just down the street from my high school. It's ridiculously overgrown.

 

:iagree:

 

Great book. Often the people with money are the ones you'd never guess. They have money because they don't spend it.

[Pawz4me]

I think "stealth wealth" is probably more common than most people realize. As a whole our society judges people by their possessions and lifestyle and has totally bought into the idea that those who have toys and/or live a lavish lifestyle are well off and those who don't are poor. Which of course is often far from the truth (and sometimes it's the exact opposite).

 

We know someone who played in the NFL for ten years or so. Not a name you'd probably recognize, but he was a starting defensive player for years. He's one of those rare professional athletes who managed his money well, and he's worth several million dollars. And he drives around in an old pickup truck that has several hundred thousand miles on the odometer. The story goes that he showed up for training camp in his old truck one time and the security guards wouldn't let him in until he showed ID. They were used to seeing athletes show up in flashy sports cars or SUVs and they couldn't believe someone earning what he did would choose to drive a ratty old truck.

 

I could give several other examples of wealthy people who prefer a simple, modest lifestyle and don't feel the need to have every toy under the sun.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Pawz4me

[Bluegoat]

I think the term rich might actually be more variably used than middle class. I think of people being described in a lot of posts as "rich" as being well off. That is, people that can afford a nice big house, expensive vacations, a pony, and so on.

 

When I think of rich I tend to think of people who could maybe maintain that lifestyle indefinitely without actually working any longer, or people who have enough money to really get in to manipulating it to create a lot more money or to influence power.

 

I think there is a pretty big gap between those two ways of thinking about the rich, much more than between what people might consider lower or even working class and upper class or upper middle.

[edelweiss]

I think the term rich might actually be more variably used than middle class. I think of people being described in a lot of posts as "rich" as being well off. That is, people that can afford a nice big house, expensive vacations, a pony, and so on.

 

When I think of rich I tend to think of people who could maybe maintain that lifestyle indefinitely without actually working any longer, or people who have enough money to really get in to manipulating it to create a lot more money or to influence power.

 

I think there is a pretty big gap between those two ways of thinking about the rich, much more than between what people might consider lower or even working class and upper class or upper middle.

 

:iagree: I agree. I think of "rich" the same way. Those who can afford a large house, expensive vacations, private prep schools, country club memberships, expensive cars... definitely well off, for sure, but not necessarily rich (unless, like you said, they could stop working indefinitely or are able to use it to wield power as well as continuing their lifestyle).

[justamouse]

Growing up our area had a few what I'd consider rich people. Our area as suburban, great area, lots of upper middle class. We were middle to lower middle class imo, probably a little less money than those around us. Dad worked, mom stayed home. Two cars, but mom didn't drive. We took real vacations in the summer, like two week RV vacations. They were great.

 

Dad worked at one job most of his adult life, that gave him stability and benefits. But money was tight, looking back I'm amazed we had a good lifestyle on his income.

 

But we couldn't afford lessons or IZOD or Polo, however, I never worried about the bills being paid, our house getting foreclosed, heat and AC, or if my dad would lose his job. I had a very stable childhood in that respect.

 

The truly wealthy people were not concentrated in our area. They lived elsewhere, sent their kids to private schools, or a few select districts.

 

The book "The Millionaire Next Door" can be revealing about who is wealthy around you. You really don't know. Credit allowed a lot of people to play wealthy who really weren't. The wealthy person in your neighborhood may not have anything different than you.

 

Our same area, which only had a McDonalds and pizza place growing up, is now is the center of consumeristic conflagration. You can barely get through some of the intersections because of all the stores. The high end shopping district for the area is now just down the street from my high school. It's ridiculously overgrown.

 

SO so true.

 

My grandparents lived in a teeny lakeside cottage, had a savings, took vacations to the shore every year and even travelled Europe.

 

Of course that tiny house was probably under 20k back then, and gas was a pittance...

[justamouse]

I think the term rich might actually be more variably used than middle class. I think of people being described in a lot of posts as "rich" as being well off. That is, people that can afford a nice big house, expensive vacations, a pony, and so on.

 

When I think of rich I tend to think of people who could maybe maintain that lifestyle indefinitely without actually working any longer, or people who have enough money to really get in to manipulating it to create a lot more money or to influence power.

 

I think there is a pretty big gap between those two ways of thinking about the rich, much more than between what people might consider lower or even working class and upper class or upper middle.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Millionaire does not = rich anymore. Millionaire means that if you are frugal the rest of your life, you'd be able to live off your savings/investments.

[Arcadia]

I think "stealth wealth" is probably more common than most people realize. As a whole our society judges people by their possessions and lifestyle and has totally bought into the idea that those who have toys and/or live a lavish lifestyle are well off and those who don't are poor.

 

I agree growing up with a lot of old wealth friends, some with trust funds and none live lavishly. My paternal grandmother was showy while my richer maternal grandmother was elegant and understated.

 

.

When I think of rich I tend to think of people who could maybe maintain that lifestyle indefinitely without actually working any longer, or people who have enough money to really get in to manipulating it to create a lot more money or to influence power.

 

When I think of rich, its more people like George Soros, Donald Trump, Conrad Hilton, Bill Gates.