Penn State Sanctions - What do you think?

[pdalley]

I have no problem with shutting down the football team. OTOH I am concerned that the $60 million dollar fee is excessive in that where is this money going to come from and how many departments and students who have nothing to do with football will potentially suffer. I am sure that there are plenty of Penn State departments and students who have nothing to do with football at all or even watch it or support it. I just think of all of the students struggling to pay for college and now this massive fine potentially hurting as innocent bystanders:(. Does this mean that the cost of college at Penn State will be even more when the cost of college in general is a national crisis IMHO???

 

The boosters and alumni will pay it. They had their 2nd biggest fundraising year ever. http://www.statecollege.com/news/local-news/penn-state-fundraising-hit-2087-million-in-201112-making-it-secondbest-year-ever-1086807/

 

Crime doesn't pay. Neither does covering it up. Eventually there's going to be one heck of a train wreck. Sadly, innocents will suffer. Such is life. Happens every day.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The boosters and alumni will pay it. They had their 2nd biggest fundraising year ever. http://www.statecollege.com/news/local-news/penn-state-fundraising-hit-2087-million-in-201112-making-it-secondbest-year-ever-1086807/

 

Crime doesn't pay. Neither does covering it up. Eventually there's going to be one heck of a train wreck. Sadly, innocents will suffer. Such is life. Happens every day.

 

I agree that crime does not pay and that innocents do suffer in life. I think it is wrong to punish innocent bystanders when it is preventable. OTOH they could make a just decision that punishes only the guilty and not the innocent bystanders. I have always believe that it is wrong to punish the whole class for the action of a few bad apples since I was a child. The other question I have is would this money from the booster club normally be used for merit scholarships to the school which again would hurt innocent bystanders if such scholarships are not available because of this fine.

[pageta]

Football funds itself and almost all other college sports. We are in Nebraska, and everything loses money except occasionally men's basketball and baseball...occasionally. So all of those womens' sports and all that? Would be extremely limited without a good football program.

 

So yes, you can be aghast at the money in football. Most of it is from tv contracts. But it also supports other sports programs, giving lots of people an opportunity they simply wouldn't have otherwise.

[Kathryn]

I agree that crime does not pay and that innocents do suffer in life. I think it is wrong to punish innocent bystanders when it is preventable. OTOH they could make a just decision that punishes only the guilty and not the innocent bystanders. I have always believe that it is wrong to punish the whole class for the action of a few bad apples since I was a child. The other question I have is would this money from the booster club normally be used for merit scholarships to the school which again would hurt innocent bystanders if such scholarships are not available because of this fine.

 

Innocents suffer with any punishment. Every person who goes to jail is someone's parent/child/sibling, someone who was loved, someone whose ability to earn income may have been needed. People who pay fines have to take it out of household budgets. Punishments adversely affect the innocent all the time.

[mom2hunangirls]

All I could think of reading Paterno's family's response was that he could have had a fair trial and given his side if he had come forward before it all blew up. Sorry I've no sympathy for his lost legacy.

But I also agree Sandusky should be dragged through more mud...and I hope after the point is made that football and a school is not above humanity that he can enjoy a little more of the media attention.

 

I also don't agree that innocent people are paying some price. I assume most people mean the football players....it's football. It's not like their degree won't count. If they were so good that a potential professional career is being lost then surely another school recognizes that and will pick them up. A free degree seems perfectly fair to me.

Will the university lose money? Sure...but that was the gamble they thought was worth it from 1998-2011. I was a gamble, they lost.

[Galatea]

I'm not sure what to think. I'm surprised they didn't get a ban for at least one season, but maybe in the football world this is worse. It will certainly affect recruiting. How does the "vacation of wins" hurt them?

 

Vacating the wins destroys Paterno's legacy. He looked the other way with Sandusky and stayed on so long while he was old because he wanted the record of "winningest coach in college football", the record he broke right before the whole Sandusky thing. Vacating the wins means no one can call him the football coach with the most wins now. I just wish he was alive still to see it happen and for him to realize in the end that he looked away for no reason at all, not even a selfish one.

[pdalley]

Innocents suffer with any punishment. Every person who goes to jail is someone's parent/child/sibling, someone who was loved, someone whose ability to earn income may have been needed. People who pay fines have to take it out of household budgets. Punishments adversely affect the innocent all the time.

 

Exactly.

 

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/23/paterno-family-reacts-to-ncaa-sanctions-2/

 

The Paterno family reaction tells me a lot. No one - ultimately - damaged - Paterno's 'legacy' but him. He testified under oath that he 'didn't want to spoil someone's weekend'. That told me right there he had no compassion for that boy in the shower. Nor did he accept any responsibility for what went on in his football locker room.

 

The players have the option to transfer without penalty. Their scholarships are still good.

 

As was pointed out - the football programs are self sustaining. The booster money was to fund 'the program'. They cannot offer as many scholarships going forward for football due to the sanctions so no one is being hurt by a loss of income. There will be fewer going forward. No one is losing their scholarship that has one now. It will be honored.

 

As much as possible the collateral damage has been mitigated. Except for the poor kids who were abused in the Penn State showers. The real innocents in all this.

 

ETA: I think they should have left the statue up. Adding a blindfold to it to symbolize what happens when you look the other way at a heinous crime.

[weaver_67579]

This helps me better understand. I definitely agree that the University President holds some culpability. And I do understand that Sandusky's trial is over and he is being punished; it just seems that people focus more on Paterno than him; maybe that it, for them, the next step, the unfinished business.

 

Bolded portion is my doing. In reality-Sandusky is the person that should bear the brunt of all of this-he is the one that molested the boys, not the entire university, not the "football program" and all of it's students and employees. I understand that there were people that have covered it up and they have and will be punished-and deservedly so. There will never be anything that will bring those boys innocence back. When is the punishment enough? How many people who did nothing have to lose their jobs, lose funding, have to change schools, won't be able to attend college due to tuition hikes.... to make it enough for people? How does that benefit the victims? I see a lot of what feels like hate here for Penn State and in collegiate sports in general. I don't get that. I also get the feeling that if you happen to love Penn State still or don't hate Joe Pa or don't think it is ok to take pot shots at his family-you were ok with what happened... also not true and I don't get that either. If Great Uncle Fred molests kids and Aunt Frieda covered it up, would you necessarily hate the whole family and think it was ok to punish the innocent for what those two did? Maybe several should lose their jobs and some may get pay reduced and a few can't go to private school any longer...but that would be GREAT since there was a culture of evil and because it was so bad we need to punish so much to make sure nobody will ever do it again...Right? What about personal responsibility? What about the legal system. The people involved will be punished criminally and a way lot of money will be won in lawsuits.

 

I am not cool with punishing the whole university, the students, the community for the horrible decisions of a few. I'm not even a football fan, and rarely attended the games when I was at Penn State. I do know that the football program funded way more there than the football program and a lot of innocents will likely suffer due to the NCAA punishments today.Tuition is already high and it will now be higher. A lot of programs and probably jobs will be cut. I just don't see how that serves the victims-by making more people pay for something they didn't do. I see happening here the same thing I see happening when other bad things happen-let's go overboard and make decisions that affect people that did nothing... much like when there is a shooting, let's pass gun control.... when there is a dog bite, let's ban some breeds...Jerry Sandusky molested boys and a few people covered it up, so let's punish a whole community...

[Caroline]

Not only will vacating the wins cause him to drop out of first place, it will also mean that in any record book there will be a star by his record. The star will point to information saying why the wins were vacated causing him to drop. It will attach this incident to his legacy for all time.

[Galatea]

They did not say anything about stripping individual players of awards.

 

It just means Paterno is now the 5th most winning coach rather than the first. It just strips him of his achievement for the years we can prove he knew about child rapes and did nothing to keep his team's reputation.

 

I would have felt better with several years of no football, but DH thinks this is worse. He says it will ruin recruiting for decades rather than a few years.

 

Your DH is right. This will destroy Paterno's legacy and it will take away any chance for the team to be in championships for a while. Because these are the two things that are most often used to recruit (reputation of the coaches, and the school's standings in championships), their recruiting will be very, very damaged. Additionally, such a harsh and public sanction will keep many players from wanting to have anything to do with that school.

 

For the people worried about this harming innocents, that is exactly why the NCAA didn't do a "death penalty" and ban them from football for a few years altogether. They gave players permission to move to other schools, immediately and without penalty, which they are not normally allowed to do. This means the exceptional players and the ones who lose scholarships can go somewhere else. And the more regular players can still play, still have the chance to personally excel at Penn State.

 

The vast majority of the football staff that is there now was there when this was going on, and they deserve the punishment they are going to feel. The new coach seems like a decent person who really wants to change the culture there, and that is the most important thing.

 

Additionally, all of the money from the $60 million fine, plus the revenue they will lose from Big 10 bowl games (estimated $13 million) will be going to charities for children.

 

Altogether, the punishment is harsh (and should be), but also fair.

[weaver_67579]

Vacating the wins destroys Paterno's legacy. He looked the other way with Sandusky and stayed on so long while he was old because he wanted the record of "winningest coach in college football", the record he broke right before the whole Sandusky thing. Vacating the wins means no one can call him the football coach with the most wins now. I just wish he was alive still to see it happen and for him to realize in the end that he looked away for no reason at all, not even a selfish one.

 

that he really is still the winningest coach? Even if they aren't official-like we don't know they actually won those games? What do people think we are stupid? Do you think fans of Joe Pa will now be like oh no his wins aren't official so I don't think they count to me? are our memories going to we wiped like Men in Black?:tongue_smilie:

 

Do the student athletes now have to leave that off their resume too? Oh well I was part of the team that won XYZ bowl in XYZ year but now we lost-seems kind of silly and petty to me.

[Joker]

For the people worried about this harming innocents, that is exactly why the NCAA didn't do a "death penalty" and ban them from football for a few years altogether. They gave players permission to move to other schools, immediately and without penalty, which they are not normally allowed to do. This means the exceptional players and the ones who lose scholarships can go somewhere else. And the more regular players can still play, still have the chance to personally excel at Penn State.

 

 

 

In regards to the bolded, I don't think anyone is losing scholarships. If I understood what I've read, the players can choose not to even play regular season ball but keep their scholarships. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

All I could think of reading Paterno's family's response was that he could have had a fair trial and given his side if he had come forward before it all blew up. Sorry I've no sympathy for his lost legacy.

But I also agree Sandusky should be dragged through more mud...and I hope after the point is made that football and a school is not above humanity that he can enjoy a little more of the media attention.

 

I also don't agree that innocent people are paying some price. I assume most people mean the football players....it's football. It's not like their degree won't count. If they were so good that a potential professional career is being lost then surely another school recognizes that and will pick them up. A free degree seems perfectly fair to me.

Will the university lose money? Sure...but that was the gamble they thought was worth it from 1998-2011. I was a gamble, they lost.

 

I am not really referring to football players but I am sure some of them will suffer as a result as innocents. I know myself and several family members and friends have never ever cared for football at all since we are geeks:) I am sure there are tons of geeks at Penn State who are not involved with football or even watch it who may be adversely affected by the fine. I think shutting down the football team, putting people in jail, and firing anyone involved is enough punishment.

[pdalley]

that he really is still the winningest coach? Even if they aren't official-like we don't know they actually won those games? What do people think we are stupid? Do you think fans of Joe Pa will now be like oh no his wins aren't official so I don't think they count to me? are our memories going to we wiped like Men in Black?:tongue_smilie:

 

Do the student athletes now have to leave that off their resume too? Oh well I was part of the team that won XYZ bowl in XYZ year but now we lost-seems kind of silly and petty to me.

 

If I found out Coach K had looked the other way and covered up this type of crime for the years he's been at Duke? You bet I'll say he didn't get those wins. They mean NOTHING. The failure to protect the innocent means a heck of a lot more than a game. Period. His failure of character is his legacy.

 

I really don't understand how crimes like this can be gotten past. I really really don't. I can rationalize looking the other way at points shaving and things like that - inappropriate loans... but this is a heinous crime that was covered up. A serial predator enabled for years and years. Nothing else about those years should count. None of those stupid bowl wins are going to get one second of those kid's lives back but losing that distinction will and should make people see what kind of people were at the head of Penn State football and the university at the time. Since it was so obvious that it was the only thing that was important to them - Paterno's legacy - the program. Surely not those poor boys. No one even cared enough to find out their names.

 

ETA: Coach K came out in support of Paterno early on. He has not commented since the Freeh report. I am very disappointed in his reaction and I hope that in light of this new evidence he will change his tune. If he does not I might not be able to think of him as I once did.

Edited July 23, 2012 by pdalley

[Joker]

that he really is still the winningest coach? Even if they aren't official-like we don't know they actually won those games? What do people think we are stupid? Do you think fans of Joe Pa will now be like oh no his wins aren't official so I don't think they count to me? are our memories going to we wiped like Men in Black?:tongue_smilie:

 

Do the student athletes now have to leave that off their resume too? Oh well I was part of the team that won XYZ bowl in XYZ year but now we lost-seems kind of silly and petty to me.

 

 

I honestly don't understand how anyone can still be a fan of Joe Pa. I don't get how you ignore that he helped cover up the rape of children. I understand past fans not bashing (somewhat) but I don't get how anyone could still be a fan.

[Galatea]

that he really is still the winningest coach? Even if they aren't official-like we don't know they actually won those games? What do people think we are stupid? Do you think fans of Joe Pa will now be like oh no his wins aren't official so I don't think they count to me? are our memories going to we wiped like Men in Black?:tongue_smilie:

 

Do the student athletes now have to leave that off their resume too? Oh well I was part of the team that won XYZ bowl in XYZ year but now we lost-seems kind of silly and petty to me.

 

It's no different than finding out after the fact that someone cheated and an award or win is taken away. Or if a student cheats on a test and they lose that score. Yeah, it may have happened, but everyone knows that it happened under circumstances that may have prevented it if things went differently. From here on, every time Penn State wins are mentioned, every time the number of wins Paterno had are mentioned, this will come up. And it should. Because the whole reason that school, Paterno, McQueery, the janitors, people who knew about this, let it happen is because they were more worried about football and it's money than they were about kids.

 

Sure, we might know that they actually won. But we also know, and will be constantly reminded, that they got those wins partially because let those boys be victimized.

[Galatea]

In regards to the bolded, I don't think anyone is losing scholarships. If I understood what I've read, the players can choose not to even play regular season ball but keep their scholarships. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Sorry, I said that wrong. Here's a bit from an article about it: "the NCAA would allow any entering or returning Nittany Lions football players to transfer to another school and play immediately. In addition, any football player choosing to remain at Penn State will keep his scholarship regardless of whether he continues to play on the team, provided he maintains the academic requirements."

 

Ultimately, the school loses 20 scholarships to give. Most of this will come from students who leave and go somewhere else. The ones who stay keep their scholarships.

[weaver_67579]

If I found out Coach K had looked the other way and covered up this type of crime for the years he's been at Duke? You bet I'll say he didn't get those wins. They mean NOTHING. The failure to protect the innocent means a heck of a lot more than a game. Period. His failure of character is his legacy.

 

I really don't understand how crimes like this can be gotten past. I really really don't. I can rationalize looking the other way at points shaving and things like that - inappropriate loans... but this is a heinous crime that was covered up. A serial predator enabled for years and years. Nothing else about those years should count. None of those stupid bowl wins are going to get one second of those kid's lives back but losing that distinction will and should make people see what kind of people were at the head of Penn State football and the university at the time. Since it was so obvious that it was the only thin that was important to them. Surely not those poor boys.

 

the students that played in them, the other employees that worked in the football program, to the fans.. I doubt they think of them as stupid or that they will forget that they really won. Listen, I am not even a football fan, but I think it is insulting to pretend like the only people at Penn State were Jerry Sandusky and Joe Paterno. I also find it insulting for people to assume that those that still support Penn State in general are somehow ok with what Sandusky or those that covered it up did or that we minimize it. I think the crimes were horrific and should be punished to the full extent of the law, but I am not down with punishing and punishing and punishing those that did nothing wrong, legally, by the NCAA and by the people that talk about Penn State and all those that are students, alumni, faculty, staff and in the community as if they had any part in it.

[Riverland]

I am particularly pleased at the vacating of Paterno's wins. Overall, I think the punishments are good, but I would have preferred more.

[MrsBasil]

Bolded portion is my doing. In reality-Sandusky is the person that should bear the brunt of all of this-he is the one that molested the boys, not the entire university, not the "football program" and all of it's students and employees. I understand that there were people that have covered it up and they have and will be punished-and deservedly so. There will never be anything that will bring those boys innocence back. When is the punishment enough? How many people who did nothing have to lose their jobs, lose funding, have to change schools, won't be able to attend college due to tuition hikes.... to make it enough for people? How does that benefit the victims? I see a lot of what feels like hate here for Penn State and in collegiate sports in general. I don't get that. I also get the feeling that if you happen to love Penn State still or don't hate Joe Pa or don't think it is ok to take pot shots at his family-you were ok with what happened... also not true and I don't get that either. If Great Uncle Fred molests kids and Aunt Frieda covered it up, would you necessarily hate the whole family and think it was ok to punish the innocent for what those two did? Maybe several should lose their jobs and some may get pay reduced and a few can't go to private school any longer...but that would be GREAT since there was a culture of evil and because it was so bad we need to punish so much to make sure nobody will ever do it again...Right? What about personal responsibility? What about the legal system. The people involved will be punished criminally and a way lot of money will be won in lawsuits.

 

I am not cool with punishing the whole university, the students, the community for the horrible decisions of a few. I'm not even a football fan, and rarely attended the games when I was at Penn State. I do know that the football program funded way more there than the football program and a lot of innocents will likely suffer due to the NCAA punishments today.Tuition is already high and it will now be higher. A lot of programs and probably jobs will be cut. I just don't see how that serves the victims-by making more people pay for something they didn't do. I see happening here the same thing I see happening when other bad things happen-let's go overboard and make decisions that affect people that did nothing... much like when there is a shooting, let's pass gun control.... when there is a dog bite, let's ban some breeds...Jerry Sandusky molested boys and a few people covered it up, so let's punish a whole community...

 

I think you are confusing anger with hate. A lot of people are very angry with Sandusky, Paterno, Spanier, Graham, and Schultz.

 

Jerry Sandusky raped boys and Paterno, Spanier, Graham, and Schultz decided to protect him, their football program, and the school. By covering it up and not reporting it they allowed other boys to victimized.

 

It's not about revenge. It's not about destroying Paterno's legacy-he did that himself. It is about destroying the culture that allowed that cover up to happen.

[Harriet Vane]

Delighted with the penalties. Justice as well as a chance for a cultural shift.

[weaver_67579]

 

Sure, we might know that they actually won. But we also know, and will be constantly reminded, that they got those wins partially because let those boys be victimized.

 

How is that? Sandusky molested boys and that somehow made the team good enough to win? I don't get the logic there at all.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Sorry, I said that wrong. Here's a bit from an article about it: "the NCAA would allow any entering or returning Nittany Lions football players to transfer to another school and play immediately. In addition, any football player choosing to remain at Penn State will keep his scholarship regardless of whether he continues to play on the team, provided he maintains the academic requirements."

 

Ultimately, the school loses 20 scholarships to give. Most of this will come from students who leave and go somewhere else. The ones who stay keep their scholarships.

 

Yes but will this huge fine affect the availability of academic scholarships? To me it seems too big of a fine when college students all over the country are facing outrageous costs for college which to me is a national crisis. Soon only the "haves" will be able to go to college:(. This is why I am concerned about the size of this fine. I agree with the other punishments but I really question the size of the monetary fine in this day and age.

[Chelli]

I think you are confusing anger with hate. A lot of people are very angry with Sandusky, Paterno, Spanier, Graham, and Schultz.

 

Jerry Sandusky raped boys and Paterno, Spanier, Graham, and Schultz decided to protect him, their football program, and the school. By covering it up and not reporting it they allowed other boys to victimized.

 

It's not about revenge. It's not about destroying Paterno's legacy-he did that himself. It is about destroying the culture that allowed that cover up to happen.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Joker]

I think you are confusing anger with hate. A lot of people are very angry with Sandusky, Paterno, Spanier, Graham, and Schultz.

 

Jerry Sandusky raped boys and Paterno, Spanier, Graham, and Schultz decided to protect him, their football program, and the school. By covering it up and not reporting it they allowed other boys to victimized.

 

It's not about revenge. It's not about destroying Paterno's legacy-he did that himself. It is about destroying the culture that allowed that cover up to happen.

 

 

:iagree:The more people talk about how important those wins are to people, the more I like that penalty. Those wins shouldn't be sooo important, and it's part of the culture that made those men think it was best to keep quiet.

[Chelli]

Yes but will this huge fine affect the availability of academic scholarships? To me it seems too big of a fine when college students all over the country are facing outrageous costs for college which to me is a national crisis. Soon only the "haves" will be able to go to college:(. This is why I am concerned about the size of this fine. I agree with the other punishments but I really question the size of the monetary fine in this day and age.

 

Who knows. But the civil liability cases haven't even happened yet. Those will most likely make $60 million dollars the NCAA fined look like chump change.

[Riverland]

How is that? Sandusky molested boys and that somehow made the team good enough to win? I don't get the logic there at all.

 

If Sandusky's criminal and morally corrupt behavior had been known to any of the recruits/players, my guess is that many of them would have chosen to PLAY ELSEWHERE.

 

If any recruit/player had known that Paterno and the others covered up such criminal and morally corrupt behavior, my guess is that many of them would have chosen to PLAY ELSEWHERE.

[Galatea]

How is that? Sandusky molested boys and that somehow made the team good enough to win? I don't get the logic there at all.

 

If Paterno and the others had made sure that Sandusky was prosecuted when they found out the first time in 1998, it would have been a scandal then too. Not as big of one as now, but a scandal nonetheless, and it would have driven good players away from the team, because they didn't want to be part of a school where a coach did that. It would also have driven away some fans (who buy tickets and paraphernalia that gives the school money) and alumni and others who donate money. Paterno and the others didn't turn Sandusky in then for a reason -- because they didn't want to lose athletes and money that would bring them wins and more money.

[pdalley]

I also find it insulting for people to assume that those that still support Penn State in general are somehow ok with what Sandusky or those that covered it up did or that we minimize it. I think the crimes were horrific and should be punished to the full extent of the law, but I am not down with punishing and punishing and punishing those that did nothing wrong, legally, by the NCAA and by the people that talk about Penn State and all those that are students, alumni, faculty, staff and in the community as if they had any part in it.

 

 

I find it insulting that anyone would take up for a Coach who talked about integrity, honor and doing the right thing while he enabled and covered up for a serial predator for YEARS. 1998 to 2011.

 

What is so wrong with destroying the culture that enabled the rapes of little boys for over a decade? The football culture at Penn State enabled this predator for over a decade. Period. Joe had no problem taking credit for all that went right but apparently didn't want to take credit for what he did wrong. Horribly, inexcusably wrong. You do. not. look. the other way with child rape. And he did. For over a decade.

 

There was an article posted that pretty much outlined how Joe also covered up other crimes - specifically those committed by his players. If he had come forward or punished Sandusky back in 1998 - instead of allowing him continued access - of reporting him to DSS - then none of this would be happening. The man had complete control over his program and he allowed and enabled it. Too bad he's not here to reap the consequences.

 

Again - this does not affect anything but football scholarships down the road. The current scholarships will be honored. Yes, Penn State football will have fewer football scholarships to offer for the duration of the punishment. The football players that Penn State would have recruited are more than likely highly sought after anyway. They won't have trouble finding a scholarship at another school.

 

The money comes from - solely from - the football program and is a drop in the bucket compared to what they made off the football program all these years. It is not in the least excessive when you consider all the money that college football generates.

 

Or the innocents that paid the price to protect the Paterno legacy at Penn State.

[Leav97]

 

Jerry Sandusky raped boys and Paterno, Spanier, Graham, and Schultz decided to protect him, their football program, and the school. By covering it up and not reporting it they allowed other boys to victimized.

 

It's not about revenge. It's not about destroying Paterno's legacy-he did that himself. It is about destroying the culture that allowed that cover up to happen.

 

:iagree:

[happypamama]

I think the punishments sound reasonable, given that other people had already pointed out the inability to give the Death Penalty due to the specifics of it. I'm of mixed minds about the vacating of wins. On the one hand, success without honor is nothing, and I think it's good that this will come up again, every time someone reads about Paterno, so that we don't buy into a culture that lets such horrific tragedies occur ever again. But I also think it's a little silly, though I gather it's happened before, to say, suddenly, "oh, So-and-So didn't actually win those games," when everyone knows that he actually did. By the rules of the football game, Paterno *did* win those games (no steroids, no cheating, etc.), and I'm not huge on revisionist history. I'm afraid it's now going to be huge arguments forevermore about "Bobby Bowden is the winningest coach, but not really," and "Paterno is still the winningest coach," and the real issue, the molestation of children and a cover-up, is going to be pushed aside.

[justasque]

There's more to the culture of JoePa than just the football aspect. This episode of This American Life covers the "party school" culture that goes along with the football games, and the alumni money that results. As TAL tells it, the school (and the town) was reluctant to appropriately police the party atmosphere (underaged drinking, binge drinking, etc.) fearing loss of alumni/legacy money.

 

#1 Party School

 

I visited the campus a few years back, just after this episode aired, and I was amazed that not once in the official presentation did anyone mention, or ask about, the party culture. I brought along three high school juniors who did not know anything about the football program; the JoePa hero worship was palatable in both the official presentations and the student-led tours, and really creeped them out. (As in, who is this JoePa guy and why is everyone so obsessed with him?) Everyone at the school, throughout the day, assumed that if you were looking at Penn State, you knew who JoePa was, and he was part of why you were there.

[Galatea]

I think the punishments sound reasonable, given that other people had already pointed out the inability to give the Death Penalty due to the specifics of it. I'm of mixed minds about the vacating of wins. On the one hand, success without honor is nothing, and I think it's good that this will come up again, every time someone reads about Paterno, so that we don't buy into a culture that lets such horrific tragedies occur ever again. But I also think it's a little silly, though I gather it's happened before, to say, suddenly, "oh, So-and-So didn't actually win those games," when everyone knows that he actually did. By the rules of the football game, Paterno *did* win those games (no steroids, no cheating, etc.), and I'm not huge on revisionist history. I'm afraid it's now going to be huge arguments forevermore about "Bobby Bowden is the winningest coach, but not really," and "Paterno is still the winningest coach," and the real issue, the molestation of children and a cover-up, is going to be pushed aside.

 

Revoking wins happens frequently. It's happened in college football before and in other NCAA sports, Olympic medals have been revoked, Tour de France wins have been revoked, high schools have sports wins revoked because of ineligible players all the time. It is a normal and effective punishment because it is public, it hurts reputations, and people don't want it to happen again or to them, so they change habits to avoid future sanctions.

 

Also I'd say that a partial reason for the cover-up was to get that "winningest coach" title, and in football it won't matter if people talk about it sometimes, because the official record will be that Paterno is not #1. Would you rather the wins were kept, and no one in football EVER talked about this, even obliquely? Because that is what would have happened without the vacation of wins.

[Riverland]

There's more to the culture of JoePa than just the football aspect. This episode of This American Life covers the "party school" culture that goes along with the football games, and the alumni money that results. As TAL tells it, the school (and the town) was reluctant to appropriately police the party atmosphere (underaged drinking, binge drinking, etc.) fearing loss of alumni/legacy money.

 

#1 Party School

 

I visited the campus a few years back, just after this episode aired, and I was amazed that not once in the official presentation did anyone mention, or ask about, the party culture. I brought along three high school juniors who did not know anything about the football program; the JoePa hero worship was palatable in both the official presentations and the student-led tours, and really creeped them out. (As in, who is this JoePa guy and why is everyone so obsessed with him?) Everyone at the school, throughout the day, assumed that if you were looking at Penn State, you knew who JoePa was, and he was part of why you were there.

 

DD attends college in PA. A week or two before the story broke, she spent the weekend at Penn State with some friends. She came away SO THANKFUL that she does not go there. She said the amount of partying was excessive and disgusting. She also was very put-off by the god-like worship of JoPa. She grew up on the west coast, and had no idea who this guy was (nor did she care).

[Lisbeth]

DD attends college in PA. A week or two before the story broke, she spent the weekend at Penn State with some friends. She came away SO THANKFUL that she does not go there. She said the amount of partying was excessive and disgusting. She also was very put-off by the god-like worship of JoPa. She grew up on the west coast, and had no idea who this guy was (nor did she care).

 

This. It is creepy who people choose to worship.

[Lisbeth]

I would also strip Joe Paterno's family of any pension, etc, and give those funds to the victims.

[happypamama]

DD attends college in PA. A week or two before the story broke, she spent the weekend at Penn State with some friends. She came away SO THANKFUL that she does not go there. She said the amount of partying was excessive and disgusting. She also was very put-off by the god-like worship of JoPa. She grew up on the west coast, and had no idea who this guy was (nor did she care).

 

Eh, I knew plenty of kids who didn't party. There is plenty of partying, for sure, but there are lots of kids who aren't there to party; they're there for serious academics. It's just a very big school and does things in very big ways, good or bad. (That's not to say that I think its football culture doesn't need to be taken down a notch or two.)

 

I grew up a few hours outside of PA, and I didn't know who JoePa was until I was a freshman at Penn State, having chosen the school for the combination of large school advantages and small personalized program that it could offer me. Maybe at the very least, this will let its academic program shine out a bit more so that people see we really are more than football.

 

Part of me is a little worried that the message will be lost to some people because of Paterno's death. I guess I'm afraid that some people would have lost interest in football anyway because Paterno died and wouldn't be coaching. I hope that is a small minority.

[pdalley]

This article pretty much sums up what I think the NCAA was trying to accomplish with this and how it affects the program:

 

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8191931/college-football-ncaa-punishes-penn-state-nittany-lions-culture-deceit-arrogance

[Kathryn]

:iagree:The more people talk about how important those wins are to people, the more I like that penalty. Those wins shouldn't be sooo important, and it's part of the culture that made those men think it was best to keep quiet.

 

:iagree:

 

Bolded portion is my doing. In reality-Sandusky is the person that should bear the brunt of all of this-he is the one that molested the boys, not the entire university, not the "football program" and all of it's students and employees. I understand that there were people that have covered it up and they have and will be punished-and deservedly so. There will never be anything that will bring those boys innocence back. When is the punishment enough? How many people who did nothing have to lose their jobs, lose funding, have to change schools, won't be able to attend college due to tuition hikes.... to make it enough for people? How does that benefit the victims? I see a lot of what feels like hate here for Penn State and in collegiate sports in general. I don't get that. I also get the feeling that if you happen to love Penn State still or don't hate Joe Pa or don't think it is ok to take pot shots at his family-you were ok with what happened... also not true and I don't get that either. If Great Uncle Fred molests kids and Aunt Frieda covered it up, would you necessarily hate the whole family and think it was ok to punish the innocent for what those two did? Maybe several should lose their jobs and some may get pay reduced and a few can't go to private school any longer...but that would be GREAT since there was a culture of evil and because it was so bad we need to punish so much to make sure nobody will ever do it again...Right? What about personal responsibility? What about the legal system. The people involved will be punished criminally and a way lot of money will be won in lawsuits.

 

I am not cool with punishing the whole university, the students, the community for the horrible decisions of a few. I'm not even a football fan, and rarely attended the games when I was at Penn State. I do know that the football program funded way more there than the football program and a lot of innocents will likely suffer due to the NCAA punishments today.Tuition is already high and it will now be higher. A lot of programs and probably jobs will be cut. I just don't see how that serves the victims-by making more people pay for something they didn't do. I see happening here the same thing I see happening when other bad things happen-let's go overboard and make decisions that affect people that did nothing... much like when there is a shooting, let's pass gun control.... when there is a dog bite, let's ban some breeds...Jerry Sandusky molested boys and a few people covered it up, so let's punish a whole community...

 

First, I've not seen anyone taking pot-shots at his family, only saying that they're not doing themselves any favors with their statements. Second, if Frieda supported Fred's abuse, I wouldn't have anything to do with her. If they had minor children, as much as I'd hate it, I wouldn't see them if it meant being around Fred and Frieda. And I wouldn't associate with any family members who supported them, before or after the fact.

[weaver_67579]

I find it insulting that anyone would take up for a Coach who talked about integrity, honor and doing the right thing while he enabled and covered up for a serial predator for YEARS. 1998 to 2011.

 

What is so wrong with destroying the culture that enabled the rapes of little boys for over a decade? The football culture at Penn State enabled this predator for over a decade. Period. Joe had no problem taking credit for all that went right but apparently didn't want to take credit for what he did wrong. Horribly, inexcusably wrong. You do. not. look. the other way with child rape. And he did. For over a decade.

 

There was an article posted that pretty much outlined how Joe also covered up other crimes - specifically those committed by his players. If he had come forward or punished Sandusky back in 1998 - instead of allowing him continued access - of reporting him to DSS - then none of this would be happening. The man had complete control over his program and he allowed and enabled it. Too bad he's not here to reap the consequences.

 

Again - this does not affect anything but football scholarships down the road. The current scholarships will be honored. Yes, Penn State football will have fewer football scholarships to offer for the duration of the punishment. The football players that Penn State would have recruited are more than likely highly sought after anyway. They won't have trouble finding a scholarship at another school.

 

The money comes from - solely from - the football program and is a drop in the bucket compared to what they made off the football program all these years. It is not in the least excessive when you consider all the money that college football generates.

 

Or the innocents that paid the price to protect the Paterno legacy at Penn State.

 

Joe Pa was a great coach. Why is that wrong or insulting to anyone? Personally, as I have stated before, I am not a football fan, but I do respect that he was a very good coach. That in no way indicates that I think the molestation by Sandusky and cover-up by all that were involved was ok. As for other cover-ups, I don't know of any, but I don't keep track of the media much as of late. I do remember players being kicked off the team by Joe Pa over trouble with the law-apparently he didn't cover up all of them. The Penn State record and scandal are 2 separate issues in my mind. People can be good and bad-in fact we all are. I never "took up for him" in that I feel like I know he is innocent, but neither do I think that all the information is out. He is dead and can't tell his side of the story. I do think more information will come out eventually and I'll reserve my judgement on him until that point. A lot of people I know feel the same way. He was no idol of mine, but neither is he hated by me.

 

People talk about destroying the culture. Maybe those people and I are not talking about the same thing. I see the culture as Penn State as a whole: students, faculty, staff, alumni and the community. I find people wanting to destroy that offensive. When I attended there was a wonderful feeling of community among all the groups I listed above and I do not see why that is so offensive to people that we still feel as though WE ARE PENN STATE! as the chant goes. I will always be PENN STATE. THe Football culture talked of was only a very small part of my Penn State experience-and mostly only on game days when the town was flooded with people there to see them play. The VERY vast majority of the people participating in that were decent law-abiding citizens... I find people wanting to punish all of the above groups for the sins of a relative few very offensive.

 

Saying the NCAA sanctions will not affect anything but football scholorships is almost certainly not true. Also remember that these are also on top of what surely will be huge payouts from lawsuits. Where will they get the money for the fine? It is a State University so the taxpayers will likely be on the hook for some. Will the tuition have to rise? Football was a huge money-raiser that funded way more than just football. Could it be possible that some other programs will need to be cut since the income will be lower? Could even one person that was not guilty of anything lose their job as a result of this? I was an Animal Bioscience major in the College of Agriculture. That's probably not a big money-maker. I bet there will be cuts in the College of Ag. Oh and how about the affect on the community-you know those vendors and business owners that make their living in the community-they will likely suffer if the Football program suffers.... I don't believe for a second that football scholarships are the only thing that will suffer. The men and boys that suffered will get none of the above mentioned NCAA fine money. It will help them not one whit.

[Chris in VA]

If you know about something and you're in a position to do something about it yet you do nothing, you are responsible. The coaches and their wives all had to know about it. The coaches could have gone to the authorities, but Paterno had the power to do that AND ban the guy from coming anywhere near the football program. But he just had Sandusky retire but let him still come around and do whatever he wanted. So he let it continue right under his nose. That is wrong.

 

Even if Paterno was still alive, he probably wouldn't be healthy enough (or mentally competent enough) to undergo a trial and so forth. Just because someone isn't alive to defend themselves doesn't mean that what they allowed to go on quietly without doing anything about it is okay.

 

Sandusky is in jail. His punishment has been dealt. We're now talking about the rest of the people involved.

 

Did this (bolded) come out in the investigation? It's repugnant to me to suggest they did, if there is no evidence that's true.

[weaver_67579]

There's more to the culture of JoePa than just the football aspect. This episode of This American Life covers the "party school" culture that goes along with the football games, and the alumni money that results. As TAL tells it, the school (and the town) was reluctant to appropriately police the party atmosphere (underaged drinking, binge drinking, etc.) fearing loss of alumni/legacy money.

 

#1 Party School

 

I visited the campus a few years back, just after this episode aired, and I was amazed that not once in the official presentation did anyone mention, or ask about, the party culture. I brought along three high school juniors who did not know anything about the football program; the JoePa hero worship was palatable in both the official presentations and the student-led tours, and really creeped them out. (As in, who is this JoePa guy and why is everyone so obsessed with him?) Everyone at the school, throughout the day, assumed that if you were looking at Penn State, you knew who JoePa was, and he was part of why you were there.

 

and there was plenty of drinking and plenty of people that didn't drink. It's your choice what you did and who you hang out with. As you know, it's a huge campus so you can find whatever kind of folks to hang around with that you want. I was a little sister at a fraternity and I know they were really cracking down on drinking when I was there. We had to have a list of people that would be attending a party for authorities with ages. If I remember correctly the underage people had a hand stamp. You could get in big trouble if the list didn't match and I know we were very careful. I also know the police did show up and check. It was also BYOB at parties and you had to sign in what/how much you brought. I cannot imagine that there is not a fair amount of drinking at most any university. I know a sister -in-law that attended a Christian one that was supposedly dry and dry it was not ;).

 

As for Joe Pa worship-I know a lot of people love(d) him, but I don't remember that when I visited or when I've been back since. I probably just didn't pay attention. Sure football is a big part of Penn State's recognition, but if you aren't interested so what-there are lots of things to occupy your time.

[weaver_67579]

Did this (bolded) come out in the investigation? It's repugnant to me to suggest they did, if there is no evidence that's true.

 

I saw that and found it horrible that anyone would say that without evidence

[hana]

I think you are confusing anger with hate. A lot of people are very angry with Sandusky, Paterno, Spanier, Graham, and Schultz.

 

Jerry Sandusky raped boys and Paterno, Spanier, Graham, and Schultz decided to protect him, their football program, and the school. By covering it up and not reporting it they allowed other boys to victimized.

 

It's not about revenge. It's not about destroying Paterno's legacy-he did that himself. It is about destroying the culture that allowed that cover up to happen.

 

I marked the part in red--this is one of my issues. I'm sure this culture extended beyond Paterno. The University built a huge reputation on football.

[Katy]

Joe Pa was a great coach. Why is that wrong or insulting to anyone? Personally, as I have stated before, I am not a football fan, but I do respect that he was a very good coach. That in no way indicates that I think the molestation by Sandusky and cover-up by all that were involved was ok. As for other cover-ups, I don't know of any, but I don't keep track of the media much as of late. I do remember players being kicked off the team by Joe Pa over trouble with the law-apparently he didn't cover up all of them. The Penn State record and scandal are 2 separate issues in my mind. People can be good and bad-in fact we all are. I never "took up for him" in that I feel like I know he is innocent, but neither do I think that all the information is out. He is dead and can't tell his side of the story. I do think more information will come out eventually and I'll reserve my judgement on him until that point. A lot of people I know feel the same way. He was no idol of mine, but neither is he hated by me.

 

People talk about destroying the culture. Maybe those people and I are not talking about the same thing. I see the culture as Penn State as a whole: students, faculty, staff, alumni and the community. I find people wanting to destroy that offensive. When I attended there was a wonderful feeling of community among all the groups I listed above and I do not see why that is so offensive to people that we still feel as though WE ARE PENN STATE! as the chant goes. I will always be PENN STATE. THe Football culture talked of was only a very small part of my Penn State experience-and mostly only on game days when the town was flooded with people there to see them play. The VERY vast majority of the people participating in that were decent law-abiding citizens... I find people wanting to punish all of the above groups for the sins of a relative few very offensive.

 

Saying the NCAA sanctions will not affect anything but football scholorships is almost certainly not true. Also remember that these are also on top of what surely will be huge payouts from lawsuits. Where will they get the money for the fine? It is a State University so the taxpayers will likely be on the hook for some. Will the tuition have to rise? Football was a huge money-raiser that funded way more than just football. Could it be possible that some other programs will need to be cut since the income will be lower? Could even one person that was not guilty of anything lose their job as a result of this? I was an Animal Bioscience major in the College of Agriculture. That's probably not a big money-maker. I bet there will be cuts in the College of Ag. Oh and how about the affect on the community-you know those vendors and business owners that make their living in the community-they will likely suffer if the Football program suffers.... I don't believe for a second that football scholarships are the only thing that will suffer. The men and boys that suffered will get none of the above mentioned NCAA fine money. It will help them not one whit.

 

The culture that tells you it's okay to think of someone who condoned repeated child rape and repeatedly helped to cover it up as "a great coach" is what everyone who is NOT part of the Penn State culture finds completely abhorrent. A "great coach" would have helped to confront the evil and actually enforce the values he said he had, not to be a giant hypocrite who allowed evil to continue for more than a decade.

 

The players will transfer to other schools if they want, and they will be fine.

[weaver_67579]

:iagree:

 

 

 

First, I've not seen anyone taking pot-shots at his family, only saying that they're not doing themselves any favors with their statements. Second, if Frieda supported Fred's abuse, I wouldn't have anything to do with her. If they had minor children, as much as I'd hate it, I wouldn't see them if it meant being around Fred and Frieda. And I wouldn't associate with any family members who supported them, before or after the fact.

 

a comment about how some of the family members certainly knew and should be punished... and several about how they should not say anything. If someone accused my husband and I didn't believe it-I would protest publically no question. I expect nothing less of others. I don't think that makes them bad people. I also see people that want every penny Joe Pa ever made taken from his family... like they had anything to do with it.

 

As for Fred and Frieda-I was talking about the punishment of those that had nothing to do with it... not whether you would visit for Sunday Dinner. I dont' think Frieda's co-workers should be punished for Fred's crimes or Frieda's cover-up. I also wouldn't have a problem being around any other family members that did not know about Fred's crime-even if their first response what I cannot believe that Uncle Fred would do that...

[Harriet Vane]

Did this (bolded) come out in the investigation? It's repugnant to me to suggest they did, if there is no evidence that's true.

 

There is no legal evidence. However, in cases of pedophilia a very, very high percentage of wives do know and choose to live in denial.

[pageta]

Did this (bolded) come out in the investigation? It's repugnant to me to suggest they did, if there is no evidence that's true.

 

That probably isn't something they would ever investigate. But I've heard it said by more than one person (guys on sports talk radio and the like). It is common for guys to go home and tell their wives about stuff that goes on in the workplace that they probably wouldn't mention to anyone else. I would be really surprised if none of the wives had any idea any of this was going on. That doesn't mean all of them did. It's just highly likely that they were their husband's #1 confidant, and if their husbands spilled the beans to anyone, that's where it happened.

 

But if you want to assume that Joe Paterno was clueless and that the janitors and other coaches and staff and all were clueless as well, then their wives probably had no idea what was going on either.

 

JoePa obviously isn't going to rise up from the dead and defend himself (though from watching him on the sidelines at games, I can see how people might think he had no clue of what was going on since he hardly seemed to know he was at a football game - they had to move him upstairs to a booth to watch the game because he wasn't alert enough to move out of the way and got run over by players executing a play).

[weaver_67579]

The culture that tells you it's okay to think of someone who condoned repeated child rape and repeatedly helped to cover it up as "a great coach" is what everyone who is NOT part of the Penn State culture finds completely abhorrent. A "great coach" would have helped to confront the evil and actually enforce the values he said he had, not to be a giant hypocrite who allowed evil to continue for more than a decade.

 

The players will transfer to other schools if they want, and they will be fine.

 

that it is abhorrent that I can think that he was skilled in teaching football skills to his players? How is that offensive in any way? and how does that in any way have to do with the cover-up. They are two different things. I can be good at playing piano and drink too much and drive. That doesn't mean I am now not a good piano player... It means I am both a drunk driver and a good piano player. They are not mutually exclusive.

[pageta]

a comment about how some of the family members certainly knew and should be punished... and several about how they should not say anything. If someone accused my husband and I didn't believe it-I would protest publically no question. I expect nothing less of others. I don't think that makes them bad people. I also see people that want every penny Joe Pa ever made taken from his family... like they had anything to do with it.

 

As for Fred and Frieda-I was talking about the punishment of those that had nothing to do with it... not whether you would visit for Sunday Dinner. I dont' think Frieda's co-workers should be punished for Fred's crimes or Frieda's cover-up. I also wouldn't have a problem being around any other family members that did not know about Fred's crime-even if their first response what I cannot believe that Uncle Fred would do that...

 

If they truly didn't know, then no, they aren't responsible. But given the realities of running a football program - the long hours, the tight atmosphere - it's really stretching it to say they didn't know. Stuff like that gets around, even if people don't witness it first hand. Sometimes when rumors like that go around, they are true. There had to be suspicions.