Modesty: A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words

[JumpyTheFrog]

A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words

 

I saw this blog post today. It just reinforces my belief that men can lust after women no matter how covered they are.

[Whereneverever]

Wow.

[Juniper]

You know, there is something beautiful about them. I am not saying they should be forced to wear them, but there is a beauty there.

 

 

But, I have never thought lust was modesty issue near as much as it was a heart issue (for the one doing the lusting.)

 

Case in point I was just watching Python Hunters where they visited a tribe in the Amazon, the women just wore disk shaped necklaces over their bre*sts and I really do not think there was lusting going on in the western men's heads. Could be, but it wasn't the vibe I got.

[KatA]

Well, she's totally asking for it. Look at that brazen ankle show!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

j/k. In case I had to say it. :leaving:

[ktgrok]

You know, there is something beautiful about them. I am not saying they should be forced to wear them, but there is a beauty there.

 

 

But, I have never thought lust was modesty issue near as much as it was a heart issue (for the one doing the lusting.)

 

Case in point I was just watching Python Hunters where they visited a tribe in the Amazon, the women just wore disk shaped necklaces over their bre*sts and I really do not think there was lusting going on in the western men's heads. Could be, but it wasn't the vibe I got.

 

C.S. Lewis has an excellent section on this in Mere Christianity. Basically talking about how a topless woman in a tribal society can be more modest than a woman in much more clothing in England, based on norms and intent.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I always thought it ridiculous that in that culture women had to take all responsibility for what happened in mens' thoughts and pants. :glare: Seriously, are they so incapable of self control? How do they "keep pure" when they live in areas with non-covered up women? Do they just go around...um...with a tent in their pants? Or are they able to do what every other male in the world learns: control of self.

 

(FTR:I believe the women should dress modestly. I understand that there are different ideas of "modesty." But I think making a woman completely cover up is ridiculous and demeaning.)

[justamouse]

C.S. Lewis has an excellent section on this in Mere Christianity. Basically talking about how a topless woman in a tribal society can be more modest than a woman in much more clothing in England, based on norms and intent.

 

Ahhhh THAT'S where I remember it from. Thank you.

 

:iagree:

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Well, she's totally asking for it. Look at that brazen ankle show!

j/k. In case I had to say it. :leaving:

 

:lol:

 

C.S. Lewis has an excellent section on this in Mere Christianity. Basically talking about how a topless woman in a tribal society can be more modest than a woman in much more clothing in England, based on norms and intent.

 

This reminded me of something I read (it was in a book. :tongue_smilie:) According to the book table skirts were invented/came into fashion (in the Victorian period?) because they were worried that the legs of a table would make men think of women's legs and become...um..you know....

[Juniper]

C.S. Lewis has an excellent section on this in Mere Christianity. Basically talking about how a topless woman in a tribal society can be more modest than a woman in much more clothing in England, based on norms and intent.

Love the bolded! :001_smile:

[godsaggie]

I always thought it ridiculous that in that culture women had to take all responsibility for what happened in mens' thoughts and pants. :glare: Seriously, are they so incapable of self control? How do they "keep pure" when they live in areas with non-covered up women? Do they just go around...um...with a tent in their pants? Or are they able to do what every other male in the world learns: control of self.

 

(FTR:I believe the women should dress modestly. I understand that there are different ideas of "modesty." But I think making a woman completely cover up is ridiculous and demeaning.)

 

I completely agree!

[frugalmama]

I always thought it ridiculous that in that culture women had to take all responsibility for what happened in mens' thoughts and pants. :glare: Seriously, are they so incapable of self control? How do they "keep pure" when they live in areas with non-covered up women? Do they just go around...um...with a tent in their pants? Or are they able to do what every other male in the world learns: control of self.

 

(FTR:I believe the women should dress modestly. I understand that there are different ideas of "modesty." But I think making a woman completely cover up is ridiculous and demeaning.)

 

Muslim here. In Islam, the teaching is that BOTH med and women need to lower their gaze for modesty's sake. However, both men and women are expected to dress modestly to avoid causing another to sin.

 

While I don't necessarily agree with the full burka or the forced wearing of it {fwiw Islam is supposed to have no compulsion in religion either, so the officials forcing women to cover when they do not wish to may have some answering to do :D}, I do agree with covering one's self out of modesty.

[LG Gone Wild]

Ahhhh THAT'S where I remember it from. Thank you.

 

:iagree:

 

Ah, yes, the sultry leg of mutton analogy. :001_smile:

[JumpyTheFrog]

According to the book table skirts were invented/came into fashion (in the Victorian period?) because they were worried that the legs of a table would make men think of women's legs and become...um..you know....

 

I heard a podcast where they said the word "legs" was considered inappropriate and so people had to refer to them as "limbs." If this is true, then the above doesn't seem far-fetched.

[stripe]

I always thought it ridiculous that in that culture women had to take all responsibility for what happened in mens' thoughts and pants. :glare: Seriously, are they so incapable of self control? How do they "keep pure" when they live in areas with non-covered up women? Do they just go around...um...with a tent in their pants? Or are they able to do what every other male in the world learns: control of self.

 

Do all men around the world (except for men in "that culture") learn control of self?

 

Is rape unknown in the US?

 

I was just reading an article about rape is South Africa, and one in four men admits to having raped a woman there. Half of them admit to having done it multiple times. A more recent study says 37% of men. Four out of ten men are rapists? Hardly very controlled.

 

I also am not sure where the idea is that women in "that culture" (which is what, by the way?) have to take responsibility for men's thoughts and actions. Furthermore, the fact that she is obviously a young woman with a nice enough body (not a big corpulent granny) means that, yeah, some guys want to watch her move. No one stopped them from looking at her hips sway or her ankle turn. Her clothes didn't stop them from ogling her. Their gaze is their moral responsibility.

 

And not every woman wears a face veil because she thinks she has a moral responsibility to prevent men from going crazy by looking at her. Some women wear it because they have a big ugly pimple that day. Some women wear it so they can travel anonymously. Some can then walk freely around with their lovers without fear of being caught by her friends or husband. Some prostitutes wear them. I think you're reading into it what you think it means.

[dangermom]

:lol:

 

This reminded me of something I read (it was in a book. :tongue_smilie:) According to the book table skirts were invented/came into fashion (in the Victorian period?) because they were worried that the legs of a table would make men think of women's legs and become...um..you know....

 

That was a joke. The British told it as a joke about prudish Americans, and they got it from a travel book where a Brit went to American and was told the story--by a leg-pulling gentleman who undoubtedly had a good laugh afterwards. Americans loved to tell tall tales like that to travel writers. Eventually Americans started telling the story as a joke about prudish British Victorians!

 

The real reason that Victorians used swaths of fabric all the time was a) it covered up cheap, factory-made furniture and b) it was easier to wash fabric covers than it was to constantly dust and wash all the furniture. They had coal fires and wood fires and grease and smoke all the time, remember!

 

 

It's true that the world 'leg' was not considered refined--nor was stomach*, or lots of other words. OTOH, I was just reading about Baroque-era French language, when practically no plain ordinary word was considered refined; people were shocked if you said dog or cat or cow instead of using some elaborate euphemism!

 

 

*Fun fact: the family-novel author Charlotte Yonge put lots of deaths into her books, but everyone always died a nice refined death of a fever or consumption or something--never anything icky like cholera or a stomach problem.

Edited June 11, 2012 by dangermom

[Aggie]

There is NO way we can tell who or what the men are looking at. We can not know their hearts by a look on their faces.

 

The author of the blog is obviously looking for anything to support her atheist pov, and this fits.:glare:

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Do all men around the world (except for men in "that culture") learn control of self?

 

Is rape unknown in the US?

 

I was just reading an article about rape is South Africa, and one in four men admits to having raped a woman there. Half of them admit to having done it multiple times. A more recent study says 37% of men. Four out of ten men are rapists? Hardly very controlled.

 

I also am not sure where the idea is that women in "that culture" (which is what, by the way?) have to take responsibility for men's thoughts and actions. Furthermore, the fact that she is obviously a young woman with a nice enough body (not a big corpulent granny) means that, yeah, some guys want to watch her move. No one stopped them from looking at her hips sway or her ankle turn. Her clothes didn't stop them from ogling her. Their gaze is their moral responsibility.

 

And not every woman wears a face veil because she thinks she has a moral responsibility to prevent men from going crazy by looking at her. Some women wear it because they have a big ugly pimple that day. Some women wear it so they can travel anonymously. Some can then walk freely around with their lovers without fear of being caught by her friends or husband. Some prostitutes wear them. I think you're reading into it what you think it means.

 

By "that culture" I meant the culture/groups of people that insists on women covering up completely. That is not restricted to nationality or geographic area. It is not everyone of other specific groups. It is a "culture" of complete covering. Like how you can be part of the "deaf culture" without having to be physically deaf.

 

I wasn't talking about a face veil. I think the idea that in France the want to (already did?) make it illegal to cover the face is ridiculous (do they never have snow and cold winds?) I was talking about full body covering.

 

And you're right, not all men control themselves. :glare:

[*********]

There is NO way we can tell who or what the men are looking at. We can not know their hearts by a look on their faces.

 

The author of the blog is obviously looking for anything to support her atheist pov, and this fits.:glare:

 

These were my thoughts, too.

[momteel]

I read recently that women are covered because it is women who are not holy or clean... they are "dirty" and can temp men to not be righteous... so the view of women is degrading from the beginning. They do not have value or worth on their own. Also, it is interesting that the men from countries where women are covered are often the men who travel to other countries and basically have freedom to do whatever they want and use women of the other country.

 

It is a sad view of women and how to be a good person...

 

L

[Jean in Newcastle]

Counting down to when this thread is closed. . .

[Catwoman]

Counting down to when this thread is closed. . .

 

Me, too.

 

If you want, we can take shifts with the counting down. ;)

[dangermom]

I read recently that women are covered because it is women who are not holy or clean... they are "dirty" and can temp men to not be righteous... so the view of women is degrading from the beginning. They do not have value or worth on their own. Also, it is interesting that the men from countries where women are covered are often the men who travel to other countries and basically have freedom to do whatever they want and use women of the other country.

 

It is a sad view of women and how to be a good person...

 

L

 

That sounds like quite a distortion. Do you have a citation? I think we'd like to know what book that was from, and who wrote it; it does not sound at all correct to me, though I'm sure someone somewhere would say it (just as happens in every culture and religion; a few people will always twist anything). But that does not make it a general belief.

[kalanamak]

The biggest erotic area is between the ears.

[newlifemom]

Counting down to when this thread is closed. . .

 

Me, too.

 

If you want, we can take shifts with the counting down. ;)

 

You two! :D

[Free]

There is NO way we can tell who or what the men are looking at. We can not know their hearts by a look on their faces.

 

The author of the blog is obviously looking for anything to support her atheist pov, and this fits.:glare:

 

Here in India I see this same scene so so often IRL, that the picture does not surprise me at all. Just because the author of the blog is atheist does not mean that her message is automatically false, irrelevant or pointless.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

There is NO way we can tell who or what the men are looking at. We can not know their hearts by a look on their faces.

 

The author of the blog is obviously looking for anything to support her atheist pov, and this fits.:glare:

 

:iagree: Completely!!!!

Edited June 11, 2012 by FiveOaksAcademy

[kalanamak]

I don't believe the author's feeling about this is because of her atheism

 

No kidding. I just looked at the pic and didn't even notice the blog until the barkbarkbark. I certainly didn't thinking: anyone who posted this is an atheist. I didn't even think: anyone who posted this is anti-Muslim. If it had been on a "Crunchy Everything-From-Scratch Homeschooling with 3 Toddlers" Blog would the complaint be that she just had it up there because she is Christian?

 

It is a mildly amusing photo, but I suppose we could all go back to only looking at things that would make it on America's Funniest Videos.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

I'm confused. When I looked at the picture I see two men admiring a woman. Just because a woman is all covered up does not mean she can not catch the eye of someone. The way she moves, the shape, flash of skin at the ankle may not be noticeable to someone who sees women in short skirts and low cut tops. But these men see the subtle clues to the feminine form underneath the material. I am not understanding the controversy this picture has caused. I am not seeing two men who are uncontrolled by their lust.

[Scuff]

Wow, this thread went downhill fast. I don't know how genuine the pic is. I don't doubt it happens, though i'm too ignorant to know of how much frequency. Modesty is about personal responsibility. Women, don't let it all hang out and be a temptation. Men, control yourself. Simple.