If you are preparing for an Economic Depression

[Murphy101]

I love your ideas! I think it was vinegar that I heard about cleaning the pickle buckets, but the link came from someone on this website.

 

How much vinegar & baking soda do you use for your clothes? That would save SO much money!

 

right now, I can buy a 32.5 pound bucket at sam's of laundry detergent for approx $12 and that lasts us approx 3 -4 MONTHS, so that's way cheaper right now than buying enough vinegar and baking soda would be.

 

For a large load of regular laundry (iow, not clothe diapers for example) I'd use 1/2 C. baking soda. If you are worried about smell or just want to be sure it's extra clean, I use a one of those downy fabric sofener balls to add approx 1/2 c. vinegar. I have no idea how much of it I'd need for a month.

 

oh and a MAJOR key to using any store bought detergent is to NEVER use the scooper it comes with! It's a major wasteful rip off. I use a 1/2 c measuring cup for the laundry and one of those baby formula scoopers for the dishwasher. (I think that's 2 tbs?) I can honestly say I have never seen or smelled my laundry or dishes getting cleaner by using more than that for full loads. I wash and rinse in all cold water for laundry unless it need disinfecting. I use the water miser setting for normal dishes. If there's a pan or something I want extra clean (such as dh's beer bottles for his home brewing;)) I don't use more detergent, I switch the cyle to "pots and pans" and heat dry. The heat and hot water in the dishwasher have been proven to do more for disinfecting than the actual detergent.

[amy g.]

I'd like an earth oven in the back yard.

 

http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/oven

 

It's so hot here that I don't like to heat the house up by turning on the oven.

 

We chopped a bunch of firewood last year, so we ought to be good when it gets cooler.

 

One of our biggest expenses is animal feed. I'm growing more of our own, and bartering for more.

 

I just hatched 30 chicks that I'm swapping for a load of hay. I traded some goat cheese that I made for some homegrown pork.

[Tracy in Ky]

One of our biggest expenses is animal feed. I'm growing more of our own, and bartering for more.

 

I just hatched 30 chicks that I'm swapping for a load of hay. I traded some goat cheese that I made for some homegrown pork.

 

I love bartering!!! You're doing great!!

[Melissa in Australia]

I think the one of the most important things to do is pay off the mortgage as fast as you can. if you don't have any debts, then it is a lot easier to live on a low income.

I live as self sufficient as I can possibly live, we have a veggie garden about the size of a tennis court, have a house cow, grow all of our own meat, have solar hot water, a wood combustion stove for heating , and cooking. have chooks, make nearly all our own clothes( we get a few from the op-shop).

we live on a very small income , my husband is to ill to work, and is on a pension. but because we don't have a mortgage, we can live fairly comfortably without me having to give up homeschooling and go to work.

[mcconnellboys]

We are stocking up and paying down debt, too.

[amary]

I think that the economists are split as to whether we are in a recession or not at this point, much less a depression.... What I'm trying to say is, "Let's not panic....yet."

 

The ones on that they choose to debate on TV may be split, but according to what I have been reading over the past few months and what our financial analyst tells us we are in a recession and it is only a matter of time before we enter a depression. Some parts of the country are already in a depression. These trends, theoretical and actual, can even be found in mainstream newspapers and magazines if you look carefully.

 

I haven't seen any panic on this list. We have no debt and my husband's job will survive a depression, so there is no panic here. I don't hear anyone trying to stockpile food and curriculum for years either. My original post was to brainstorm and think outside the box a little bit.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

Check out http://www.pathtofreedom.com to see what it's possible to grow on a city size lot. These people are amazing.

[Closeacademy]

We put in a large garden. Over the summer I will be freezing or canning everything that I can. We are using a pricebook where I write down the price at various stores of items we routinely buy, shopping sales and using coupons.

 

We have stopped buying anything we don't have to have right now.

 

We are camping locally this year for vacation instead of going anywhere.

 

We are driving as little as we need to.

 

And I am going to do day care, teach canning classes and am looking at other ideas for bringing in money since my e-bay business is folding.:001_smile:

[Peela]

Same crunch happening here in Australia over petrol and food prices going up. Its a common topic of conversation.

 

My husband and I have always enjoyed a good standard of living by being willing, and enthusiastic, about buying everything we can 2nd hand. It has been a shared joy of our marriage to hunt for bargains every weekend and whenever we actually want something. All of our furniture, our cars, our linen, our clothes, our kitchen equipment, our music, our camping equipment, computers, are 2nd hand. It is simply our lifestlye and it becomes difficult to imagine why people choose to spend so much on things just to have them new, when they are no longer new the moment they have bought them. Once you get a nose for 2nd hand stuff, you know a bargain. And it's fun!

 

There is so much more we could be doing though. We waste a lot on food. I am actually wondering when dh is going to start feeling it and I am kind of looking forward to having to budget food, rather than just look for the specials but still buy and eat whatever we want. Dh loves to grocery shop but eats junk and processed foods way more than is healthy. I wouldn't mind a little nudge toward "eating from scratch" more. Whenever I try, no one wants to eat it.

 

I think it's the LDS people that have a plan for stockpiling food- I guess all that was promoted in the Y2K days. However I am reading this thread and thinking I could maybe make a spare shelf in the linen cupboard for stashing cans and rice and pasta etc.

 

Anyone else ever consider what would happen if the water we take for granted coming out of out taps dried up or became poisoned or polluted in a crisis? Its been occurring to me lately its not such a bad idea to have some water stored in case of emergency. You can live for a while on little food, but you can't survive long with no water. Some water purification tablets wouldnt be a bad idea either.

[Cheryl in NM]

I think it's the LDS people that have a plan for stockpiling food- I guess all that was promoted in the Y2K days. However I am reading this thread and thinking I could maybe make a spare shelf in the linen cupboard for stashing cans and rice and pasta etc.

 

Anyone else ever consider what would happen if the water we take for granted coming out of out taps dried up or became poisoned or polluted in a crisis? Its been occurring to me lately its not such a bad idea to have some water stored in case of emergency. You can live for a while on little food, but you can't survive long with no water. Some water purification tablets wouldnt be a bad idea either.

 

You are correct about the LDS. It's been a way of life for them, actually part of their doctrine now, for over 100 years. But, as I mentioned before, they rotate through their stored goods, eating and replacing.

 

about.com has great articles about food storage and also, how much water to set aside per person.

 

Here is a calculator that tells you how much to store for various family sizes.

http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blcalculator.htm

 

Here's some good tips that are not LDS

http://homecooking.about.com/od/foodstorage/Food_Storage.htm

 

I want to say that whether you beleive in the LDS principle or not, they KNOW food storage and will share their knowledge. Also, in many cities they have canneries that they will let the general public use. They are very forthcoming with their knowledge.

 

 

BTW: No, I'm not LDS, just have some very good LDS friends. I've learned so much from them about many things, food storage being one.

[TravelingChris]

We are not in a recession yet and definitely not in a depression. A depression is when the economy has shruink more than 10%. Right now the best indicators are that the economy is wither growing very slowly or not at all but so far hasn't shrunk. Terms like recession and to a lesser degree, depression, have definitions and ways to be determined.

 

For what I am doing is continuing to spend money. That helps the economy. We continue to pay all of our bills but am trying to continue my normal spending habits with the exception that I spend less on gasoline.

[Murphy101]

We are not in a recession yet and definitely not in a depression. A depression is when the economy has shruink more than 10%. Right now the best indicators are that the economy is wither growing very slowly or not at all but so far hasn't shrunk. Terms like recession and to a lesser degree, depression, have definitions and ways to be determined.

 

For what I am doing is continuing to spend money. That helps the economy. We continue to pay all of our bills but am trying to continue my normal spending habits with the exception that I spend less on gasoline.

 

That's all well and good for you then.:cheers2:

 

But a segment of the population tend to see the writing on the wall well before the technical definition is attained and gov't accepted and media broadcast.

 

For people such as that, like myself and some others, continuing to spend money does not do anything more than hurt their personal economy.

 

And personally, regardless of the economy, I think many people would be better off if they spent less.

 

Again, I am not in a panic and I don't see anyone else that is. What I and many others are dealing with is a personal financial crunch - a personal recession if you will - and we are trying to do our best to manage in tough times. To me, that is not panic. It is common sense and good financial sense. By the time the gov't and economists notice whether my family fits their definitions or not, I'd probably be nothing more than a homeless statistic.:rolleyes:

 

If you don't need to save money, then no one here is asking you to do so.

[RebeccaC]

That's all well and good for you then.:cheers2:

 

But a segment of the population tend to see the writing on the wall well before the technical definition is attained and got accepted and media broadcast.

 

 

 

Actually I don't think that the people can read the wall very well. The last true recession at the national level in this nation was 80/81. There was high unemployment and high interest rates then that we do not have right now on top of a true recession. Which is 2 back to back quarters of negative growth.

 

I bought my first house then. A small 300 square foot, one bedroom 3/4 bath, uninsulated house, on a slab with a flat roof house that cost $10,000. My interest rate was 21% for 30 years, my monthly payment, if memory serves me right was $265. My job was as a waitress making $1.25 an hour plus tips. Made $9000. that year working a 6 day shift from 11am to 8 pm. and had no break. The up side to that job was that I got a meal before work and after work so I did not have to buy groceries. That made living with out a frig bearable but I could not afford a phone and never had one until I got married at almost age 30. All this while going to college part time that I paid cash for. I got no help from my folks. I hated Reagan when he began taxing waitress tips. I got a couple of pay checks that were 0 and I had not made the projected tips that I was taxed on. Which meant I was paying taxes on earning I did not earn.

 

A year later we had a bad winter in IL it was 50 below zero and my heating bills were $900 a month. At that time I had a young unwed mother and her baby living with me. I was making $10,000 a year then but 2 or so months of $900 dollars for heating nearly cost me that home. I had to drop out of college and take a night job at a gas station plus the waitress job. I worked like dog that winter and paid for it with my health.

 

I am really sorry y'all but this is not yet a recession and it is no where near as bad as it was in the late 70s and 80s. Unemployment is very low, interest rates are still unbelievably low our economy is till growing although be it slowly. I do not see the gas lines that I remember waiting in, in the 70s. Times are a bit tight but we are not on the edge of a depression yet. We might be just barely be skirting a recession but we aren't even there yet.

 

My grandparents lived through the dust bowl in OK I could post some of their depression stories that would make the hair on your head stand up. It is not that bad in our country right now. We are incredibly blessed! By the standards of most of the world and most of history every person in America is rich.

 

Prudent living is always good. Paying off debt is always good. Stocking up might be good and it might be bad. Do what you can do and don't dwell on how bad it might be, dwell on how incredibly wonderfully blessed you are. Stop listening to talk radio, 24 hour news and you will find your fear levels go down. The media is fueled by fear that is how they get their ratings. Turn them off and feed your mind on other things, like what you have to be thankful for today :)

 

 

:leaving:

[Michelle My Bell]

... dwell on how incredibly wonderfully blessed you are. Stop listening to talk radio, 24 hour news and you will find your fear levels go down. The media is fueled by fear that is how they get their ratings. Turn them off and feed your mind on other things, like what you have to be thankful for today :)

 

 

:leaving:

 

I could not agree more! I have found myself seriously questioning if I want to even have TV or Internet or even access to the outside world as I all I see and hear are doomsday reports all around me. I tend to get overly worked up inside at times without letting it show on the outside and it causes a great deal of stress within me. I have decided that I just need to focus on Christ and what He has done for me and my family and realize that in Him I am safe and secure. By seeking Him, I know He will lead me should I need to do something to protect my family if it is His will.

 

Michelle

 

PS Sorry to the non-Christians out there who could be offended by my remark, but I know in whom I believeth.

[Murphy101]

My grandparents lived through the dust bowl in OK I could post some of their depression stories that would make the hair on your head stand up. It is not that bad in our country right now. We are incredibly blessed! By the standards of most of the world and most of history every person in America is rich.

 

Prudent living is always good. Paying off debt is always good. Stocking up might be good and it might be bad. Do what you can do and don't dwell on how bad it might be,

 

What is the purpose of this? If neither of you are having financial issues or feel a need to tighten your wallet - then don't do it! Spend away and I hope you have fun doing it!:banghead:

 

No offense, but I've lived in Oklahoma my entire life, and my grandparents raised my parents during the depression and dust bowl, so I don't need you or anyone else patronizing me about it. Yes, one side had to raise 12 child in a shanty and the other had to raise 5. Their teeth were worn down because no matter how clean they tried to be, they ate dust in everything. My grandmother once gave me my favorite patchwork quilt, of teeny little shades of sand to brown patches. It was so incredibly soft I couldn't believe it. Then she told me how it was made out of old underwear and socks that couldn't be salvaged for further use in anything else. After they made that quilt, they simply went without underwear and socks.

 

No one, including myself, are saying it's that bad or even that it will get that bad. What I have said, repeatedly, is that for a segment of our population, they are really seeing a NEED to save every penny. That segment is feeling like they are in a recession. If you are not part of that segment - good for you.

 

I do not think this thread as been about stock piling for dooms day at all. It has been about the best way to save money, stretch money, and stock larders. I haven't seen a single person say they are building a hole in the ground to live in or starting to hide food and ammo for crying out loud.

 

I'm very interested in a garden because buying fresh at the store has literally become out of our reach or reduced to the point that it's a luxery. I'm interested in stocking my pantry because it can be cheaper in cost, if nothing else, it saves gas to not go shopping as often. I'd like to reach a point with my staples that I have had for many years with my non-grocery iterms - a once monthly or quarterly list to buy.

 

If nothing else, the december ice storms Oklahoma recently had gave us a real eye opener to how convient based our lives have become and how devastating it could be financially. We were without electric for over a week and trucks had a hard time making deliveries to businesses, so shelves were empty of many basic things like milk. After day THREE there was nowhere you could buy firewood and we'd never bothered to buy a cord of wood thinking our fireplace would be decorative mostly. We can't afford to stay at a hotel or eat out for every meal for a week and we don't do credit cards. It was a real eye opener that we needed to be more boy scout prepared. Not for the end of the world, or even a depression, but just because ice storms, illness, job loss, tornados and black outs happen and for people on a slender income it can be devastating to recover from even a couple of weeks of dealing with the expense of scavaging for resources. We spent almost an entire months budget on foods and supplies (like cast iron to use in the fireplace for cooking and having to buy those nasty duralogs for burning, for example). We've never had cable and I don't listen to the news much. Most of it's garbage not worth listening to and doesn't really pertain to me anyways.

 

So I'll repeat. We are not in a panic. We aren't wanting to burrow in and bunker down. We are having a financial hardship or are trying to avoid it or it getting worse or simply trying to be better with financial spending and homemaking.

 

If you do not feel a desire to do that - that's awesome for you.

[RebeccaC]

I could not agree more! I have found myself seriously questioning if I want to even have TV or Internet or even access to the outside world as I all I see and hear are doomsday reports all around me. I tend to get overly worked up inside at times without letting it show on the outside and it causes a great deal of stress within me. I have decided that I just need to focus on Christ and what He has done for me and my family and realize that in Him I am safe and secure. By seeking Him, I know He will lead me should I need to do something to protect my family if it is His will.

 

Michelle

 

PS Sorry to the non-Christians out there who could be offended by my remark, but I know in whom I believeth.

 

 

Well you know what it came down to for me is who is my provider....... If I don't believe it is Him, Father God and act accordingly what is reigning in my heart? Certainly not faith. I have been focused on PS 27, 34, and 84 He will not withhold any good thing from those who trust Him. Every time it looks grim I meditate on portions of the above Psalms.

 

It is rough here right now I was selling books this past week to buy food and put gas in the car but I am filled with peace! I just laid it at the feet of God. I used all of our paycheck to pay our mortgage and asked God to take care of the rest and He has! We had so much left that I used my book money for tithes and first fruits.

 

Folks have been stopping by our house dropping off food saying things like I was praying today and God said take this to the Crows and most of the folks have no idea how tight it is here. Last year we read the life of George Muller and my boys keep saying, "We are living Muller's life of faith mom! God does provide." I have peace my boys are learning faith and all I can do is thank God for His goodness!

 

All that is happening right now with the price of oil and the slowness of the economy does not take Him by surprise and we are learning that He will provide physically and emotionally all that we need. Even the supplies for our family tradition of root beer floats on the 4th of July and my favorite comfort food, last Sunday, of Won Ton Soup. Some one said God told them to drop off Chinese and they apologised because they did not know if we liked Chinese or not. Imagine that God sending comfort food when there was no food. All I did was ask that He would help us. I did not ask for root beer float stuff or for Won Ton Soup He just supplied above and beyond what I asked! My fridge is full and I have enough food till next payday! We have no lack! Just like it says in PS 34.

 

Sorry if this offends any one but God is good.

[Murphy101]

I would like to purchase a generator. That's a MAJOR expense, but as I mentioned in the previous post - that ice storm really gave us a wake up call. We lost far more in freezer goods alone than the cost of a generator. So I think having one might be a really smart idea. Yes, powering it isn't cheap either so one wouldn't want to use it unless really neccessary. Obviously we cooked and ate all we could, but we lost a lot. Ouch.

 

Oh and don't forget medical supplies and disposable diapers and wipes. Oh man, trust me. You do not want to have a power outage for a week and have poo cloth diapers that can't be properly washed because the washer/dryer is electric.:tongue_smilie:

 

Oh and for outdoor or fireplace cooking, I really needed a fireplace sized laddle and fork to reach in without getting scortched. We had some BBQ utencils, but none were spoons. I had to go to a camping store to get one.

 

Oh and this may seem stupid to some of you, but buy various degrees of thickness in blankets, from light to blizzard worthy. We had become very used to just sleeping with a sheet or nothing, even in winter because there's the heater, kwim? Esp as Oklahoma isn't known for having very many truely harsh winter conditions. We now have LOTS of different grades of blankets for everyone and if they get cold they get a different or another blanket and we keep the thermostat a bit cooler than before, saving money. You can find some really nice blankets used in yard sales or thifty shops.

 

I have no issue with trusting God either. We did indeed survive that ice storm very well all things considered. But I don't think being christian means we shouldn't be prudent or learn from our mistakes. Looking back on that event, we found that if we had done just a few things (like more blankets!) or had had a few items on hand, it would have made the entire ordeal not an ordeal at all.

[RebeccaC]

What is the purpose of this? If neither of you are having financial issues or feel a need to tighten your wallet - then don't do it! Speed away and I hope you have fun doing it!:banghead:

 

No offense, but I've lived in Oklahoma my entire life, and my grandparents raised my parents during the depression and dust bowl, so I don't need you or anyone else patronizing me about it. Yes, one side had to raise 12 child in a shanty and the other had to raise 5. Their teeth were worn down because no matter how clean they tried to be, they ate dust in everything. My grandmother once gave me my favorite patchwork quilt, of teeny little shades of sand to brown patches. It was so incredibly soft I couldn't believe it. Then she told me how it was made out of old underwear and socks that couldn't be salvaged for further use in anything else. After they made that quilt, they simply went without underwear and socks.

 

If you do not feel a desire to do that - that's awesome for you.

 

Martha,

 

I just posted before I read your reply and I am sorry if I offended you. This thread was started by someone who posted that they were convinced that we are heading to a depression. Some one who posted that they were listening to economist on the radio or TV and googling about an economic depression. No one here can stock pile enough to get through either a recession or a depression. That is reality. Maybe they can take a bit of the sting off at the beginning but not enough to get through the whole thing.

 

Botton line is we are not in a recession and are not close to a depression on the national front. Some folks are feeling a pinch and some are feel a bit more but as a nation we are still on strong ground.

 

Again I am sorry if I offened you.

[JennifersLost]

Coming in late, but the part about the blankets made me laugh in sympathy. I stockpile blankets "just in case". Just in case what? I don't know, exactly, but if I every have to put up 20 unexpected people I want to have enough blankets, LOL (not that I do....)

 

I think that there are three stages to this planning - and a lot of it is mental.

 

One: are you living within your means right now? If not, take steps so you are.

 

Two: what can you do now so if in four to eight years the price of gas really does double, or the price of food rises sharply you won't be caught off guard. These are long term plans like starting a garden, eating more frugally, looking for ways to barter for fresh food in your community, training yourself to walk where you can and only use the car when you have a bunch of errands, etc.

 

Three: what might the world look like in 30 years, when you will most likely be retired. This is a combination of regular retirement planning, thinking about living lightly on the world, thinking about how you'll be able to help your kids and grandkids (by having no debt, by taking care of your health, by growing a fantastic garden and passing on your skills....).

 

I think these are exciting times (and I'm blogging about this). There are so many opportunities for us to support each other and to STRIVE. We have a real excuse to pick up these fun skills, you know? A real excuse to step off of the consumerist treadmill.

 

And it's fun to talk about, too.

[Murphy101]

Martha,

 

I just posted before I read your reply and I am sorry if I offended you. This thread was started by someone who posted that they were convinced that we are heading to a depression. Some one who posted that they were listening to economist on the radio or TV and googling about an economic depression. No one here can stock pile enough to get through either a recession or a depression. That is reality. Maybe they can take a bit of the sting off at the beginning but not enough to get through the whole thing.

 

Botton line is we are not in a recession and are not close to a depression on the national front. Some folks are feeling a pinch and some are feel a bit more but as a nation we are still on strong ground.

 

Again I am sorry if I offened you.

 

I guess what bothered me was not that I was offended, but that the tone of your and Michelle's posts was that others in this thread were nuts and doomsday hysterics. That's how it came across to ME. As though people such as myself are simply over reacting and don't know anything about real hardship. It came across as very patronizing.

 

I'm sorry if I missread that or took it the wrong way, but that's what it felt like from my end of the computer.

 

How the nation is doing is really irrelevant to me. Personally, we've been worse off than this. My dh has a job and our mortgage and other bills are being paid. No one in my home is doing without, thank God. But I've never had to ration milk with my kids before. We are already very healthy eaters (never allowed anything other than milk or water to drink for example), so when we have to cut our grocery list because the items have gotten too expensive, it's not cookies I have left to cut - it's things like milk. If I can save some funds by buying grains each quarter in bulk, it won't really mean money saved. It'll mean a few more gallons of milk. Same goes for saving gas. Less trips to the store means maybe we can afford a trip to visit friends out of town once a month or a trip to the zoo.

 

Last year we had activities for the kids 3 or 4 times during the school week. Everything from field trips to sports to art to park playdates to coop. This year we will have playdates at home and that's it that will be a regular scheduled activity. We might do coop. It depends. We hope to be able to do more spontanious stuff throughout the year as funds allow, but we cannot afford to enroll in anythign that requires a regular commitment. The gas alone for a 12 passenger van would be tremendous even if we didn't count the cost of the activities themselves.

 

So I am well aware things have and could be worse for the nation and certainly myself. But how the nation is doing really doesn't matter to me because the nation is not feeding, raising, and educating my kids. That's all on us. And our only aim is to learn from our experiences and do better each day. I think the idea that others are in the same boat and want to share ideas on this thread is a great idea and I'd love to hear more about what they have learned.

[Murphy101]

Coming in late, but the part about the blankets made me laugh in sympathy. I stockpile blankets "just in case". Just in case what? I don't know, exactly, but if I every have to put up 20 unexpected people I want to have enough blankets, LOL (not that I do....)

 

I think that there are three stages to this planning - and a lot of it is mental.

 

One: are you living within your means right now? If not, take steps so you are.

 

Two: what can you do now so if in four to eight years the price of gas really does double, or the price of food rises sharply you won't be caught off guard. These are long term plans like starting a garden, eating more frugally, looking for ways to barter for fresh food in your community, training yourself to walk where you can and only use the car when you have a bunch of errands, etc.

 

Three: what might the world look like in 30 years, when you will most likely be retired. This is a combination of regular retirement planning, thinking about living lightly on the world, thinking about how you'll be able to help your kids and grandkids (by having no debt, by taking care of your health, by growing a fantastic garden and passing on your skills....).

 

I think these are exciting times (and I'm blogging about this). There are so many opportunities for us to support each other and to STRIVE. We have a real excuse to pick up these fun skills, you know? A real excuse to step off of the consumerist treadmill.

 

And it's fun to talk about, too.

 

LOL, the funny things is we invited 2 other families to stay with us at various times that week because they didn't even have a fireplace to cook on! Thank goodness for body heat!

 

I completely agree we as a nation and certain in our individual lives have to live not only within our means, but well below them if possible. I think we are living within our means. Until gas and groceries shot up, I'd have said below our means.

 

I really wanted to put in a garden this year and might still put in a late one. I'm kind of glad I didn't though because the heavy rains would have completely trashed it, so I'd have actually lost money on planting.

 

I actually like walking, but it's not very safe here. I really think all roads should be required to have a walk path on the side. The idea of walking with 8 kids in tow along the edge of the streets here really makes me a bit nauseated. I don't even let them ride bikes on the streets here and cringe when I see other bikers on the edge of the street. The roads are just not wide enough and people just aren't aware enough. Scary I tel you, scary!

 

I have 8.4 kids! THEY are my retirement plan! lol. I plan to barter free babysitting of grandbabies for room and board. Dh says he'll bring home fish for dinners.:D

 

I agree these can be very positive times too! For example, I think many families have gotten very caught up in always having the kids doing something. It's been a new experience, even though we hs, to see that the kids are actually very excited about working along side us gardening, working on the car, and so forth. I think many families are going to see some great opportunities for building family unity.:) My mil commented the other day while my dh and boys were helping clear tree debri off their property that you never see boys happily working along side their dads and granddads anymore and how it was such a joy to see it. She NEVER has anything good to say about us hs-ing or having a large family. (my dh is an only child, so they are really stumped and baffled by our marriage and parenting!:lol:)

[6packofun]

We are stocking up on toilet paper, dry staples and canned goods we *already* use AND propane for our gas grill. We are trying to save up to have one tank on the grill and 2 refill tanks full at all times. I love to grill and it can be used all year round in an emergency!

 

Another thing that we are doing is buying ahead for PET food. Unfortunately, we'd have to think of ourselves before our pets in a dire situation and that would just be awful. (And I'm thinking about the sudden financial hardship that we experienced early in our marriage and that had nothing to do with the economy! We had to give our pets away because we could not feed them. :crying: )

 

I am ahead in purchasing school supplies and could make do with what we have for probably 2 years so we're good there. :tongue_smilie:

 

I've always felt more secure with a full, stocked pantry and extras for "just in case" so other than a few changes, we are just trying to keep up with my usual expectations and it's difficult right now! But I know that we'd manage. The more I think and pray about how much we want to do, the more I hope that our family will be one that can help our neighbors a bit if they are really struggling, too. Preparing for a community in need is something I think that many more people should consider. :) Even if it's just an extra tube of toothpaste here and there. And hey, our house could be serve as the community library! heehee!!

[Murphy101]

I hope that our family will be one that can help our neighbors a bit if they are really struggling, too. Preparing for a community in need is something I think that many more people should consider. :) Even if it's just an extra tube of toothpaste here and there. And hey, our house could be serve as the community library! heehee!!

 

I completly agree! We were really roughing it during that ice storm, but it never occurred to us to not open our home to help as little as we could. Worst case scenario to having a good stock of propane and meat in the freezer is you can just invite everyone over for a BBQ.

 

We did a free coop in our home last year because it's large enough, but mostly because I had enough educational stuff that I wasn't using to be used in a coop with 12 - 15 other kids. It was convienent for us and enjoyable for everyone involved. Used my stuff and they took turns bringing food or whatever. We all benifited.:iagree:

[RebeccaC]

I

So I am well aware things have and could be worse for the nation and certainly myself. But how the nation is doing really doesn't matter to me because the nation is not feeding, raising, and educating my kids. That's all on us. And our only aim is to learn from our experiences and do better each day. I think the idea that others are in the same boat and want to share ideas on this thread is a great idea and I'd love to hear more about what they have learned.

 

 

I posted earlier in this thread that with 9/11 we went from 60 to 80,000 a year to 30-35,000 a year. Our paycheck covers two weeks and we had no money for any food and no food to cover us for those two weeks, just a week ago today. That is beyond rationing milk kwim :001_smile: That is not even mentioning there was no money for t paper and we were out or animal food or..... Even with that I am still richer than most of the people on the planet.

 

When 9/11 hit we had some stock pile from K2Y and that lasted a few weeks after that it was scrape by. I know of what I speak when I say stock piling may or may not be a good thing. What happens when the pile runs out? What happens when you have a generator but no fuel or money for fuel? What happens to garden tools when there is a drought?

 

What helps when hard time hit is,

• living within one means when times are good

• getting debt free and staying debt free

• learning skills like canning, sewing, garadening, car maintenance, ect...

• stocking stuff is ok but what happens when the stock pile is gone.....

• having faith and keeping a positive mind set.

 

 

Now when I posted earlier I did not notice that you were from OK. I lived with my grandparents for a while in Skiatook which is just north of Tulsa right off of Bird Creek. They lived on an oil lease of 180 acres and my grandfather raise beef cattle and work for the oil company as a line man. I loved it on the lease but it was very premitive no indoor plumbing at all.

 

Anyway sorry that my post hit ya wrong.

 

Blessings,

Rebecca

[Murphy101]

I posted earlier in this thread that with 9/11 we went from 60 to 80,000 a year to 30-35,000 a year. Our paycheck covers two weeks and we had no money for any food and no food to cover us for those two weeks, just a week ago today. That is beyond rationing milk kwim :001_smile: That is not even mentioning there was no money for t paper and we were out or animal food or..... Even with that I am still richer than most of the people on the planet.

 

When 9/11 hit we had some stock pile from K2Y and that lasted a few weeks after that it was scrape by. I know of what I speak when I say stock piling may or may not be a good thing. What happens when the pile runs out? What happens when you have a generator but no fuel or money for fuel? What happens to garden tools when there is a drought?

 

What helps when hard time hit is,

• living within one means when times are good
  
• getting debt free and staying debt free
  
• learning skills like canning, sewing, garadening, car maintenance, ect...
  
• stocking stuff is ok but what happens when the stock pile is gone.....
  
• having faith and keeping a positive mind set.

Now when I posted earlier I did not notice that you were from OK. I lived with my grandparents for a while in Skiatook which is just north of Tulsa right off of Bird Creek. They lived on an oil lease of 180 acres and my grandfather raise beef cattle and work for the oil company as a line man. I loved it on the lease but it was very premitive no indoor plumbing at all.

 

Anyway sorry that my post hit ya wrong.

 

Blessings,

Rebecca

 

hmm, your bottom income is what we make before taxes and insurance benefits.:001_huh: I also mentioned that we'd been worse off as well. To the point of having to get food stamps earlier in our marriage because we were evicted and had no money for anything.

 

Again, no one is arguing against your listed advice up there.

 

The point is not to stock a bunch of stuff in the cellar and forget about it. The point is to stock what you use and keep replenishing it as best one can. For example I went to the site someone here listed with the LDS on how much quantity I should store of stuff. Goodness cricky, I'm never going to be able to store a years worth of food for all soon to be 11 of us! I'd need a second house for it all!

 

My goal is to buy in 1 month quantities of staples at first and work my way up to 3 month quantities. So at the end of every 3 months I will probably start to run low, but not out of provisions. The goal is not to stock pile, but to stretch my dollar without loosing health.

[RebeccaC]

When my grandparents died they had seven years worth of home canned food put up. They had it so hard in the depression and really before that they built up that kind of food supply in the late 40s and kept it there. They died in the late 80s early 90s. We had no idea what to do with it all :eek: We were all in the Chicago area and they were in Skiatook. We gave as much as we could away took as much as we could and just threw a bunch out.

 

When 9/11 hit we had a bit stock piled from Y2K but that ran out quick. A good stocked pantry is always a blessing, recession/depression aside and I used to try and keep a month or so worth. Dh got hurt pretty bad a little over a year ago pulled all 3 hamstring ligaments off his hip bone on his left leg. Keeping the pantry stocked was a good idea because he was out of work for awhile and we lived off of that pantry. However I have not had time to rebuild the pantry and our finances have not had time to recoup from that. Still paying the docs off :rolleyes: However I now have all the utilities pay up :hurray: and we have not fallen behind in our mortgages. In Sep. we can refinance and maybe combine the mortgages and get lower payments so that they do not eat up over half of our income before overtime. We have a tiny house 550 square feet but it is nice for us.

 

Life is full of ebbs and flows as far as fiances go. You prepare the best you can and then keep in the back of you head that it will change. That things will get better. These types of threads were all over the boards before Y2K and now that giant looming threat is a distant memory for most folks. This current threat of recession will be a distant memory soon enough and so will my dh's injury.

 

Wish we could move to OK we could live very well on our income there. Dh put in for a transfer to Tulsa a few years ago but he was told he needed 30 years seniority to get that. Only 5 more years and we can maybe try again. Here in Chicago it is a tough go, gas is high almost $5. for diesel and we have parked the turck, taxes are high as is the cost of living. Dh has a 40 minute drive to O'hare. Our tiny two bedroom one bath house is worth $200,000 or at least it was a year ago and I know we could get a much bigger and nicer house for that in OK.

 

I scoped out Skiatook when we were trying to transfer and found that it was no longer a sleepy little town but an outer suburb of Tulsa. Time sure did not stand still :eek: the lease was still an oil company housing benefit but they now had in door plumbing and the next ranch over was built up with luxury housing. It was just too weird.

 

I hope in a year that this blip of hard times will be a distant memory for you and your family. In the mean time do what you can and love your kids they grow up way too fast.

[RebeccaC]

Some one just sent me this and I thought I woudl post it hope this link works http://www.nysun.com/opinion/dire-news-from-my-colleagues/81198/

 

Here is the articel I think in full if the link does not work;

 

Hardly a Depression

By JOHN STOSSEL, JFS Productions, Inc.

July 3, 2008

 

'It's been described as the most serious financial crisis since the Great Depression. And it brings with it grave dangers for all American families," said Martin Bashir on "Nightline." "Recession looms ..."

 

 

On the "Today" show June 20, David Faber referred to "the recession ... these tough economic times." Yet that very day first-quarter gross domestic product was revised upward again to 1%.

 

America is not in recession, and who knows — maybe we'll be less likely to have one if my compatriots would just chill. A recession is defined as two quarters of negative economic growth. We haven't even had one quarter of negative growth.

 

Yes, growth has slowed, and many people are suffering because of falling home prices and higher food and energy prices. These are real problems, but watching TV, you'd think we were in a recession so severe it must be compared to the Great Depression.

 

Maybe I was just watching at the wrong times and just catching some outliers? No. A study by the Business and Media Institute found that ABC, CBS, and NBC regularly "hyped similarities to the Great Depression."

 

BMI took a novel approach. It compared the economic news coverage by the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post between October 28 and November 3, 1929, around the time of the stock market crash, with the coverage by ABC, CBS, and NBC between March 13 and 19 of this year.

 

"The difference between how the 1929 and 2008 media handled a crisis was profound — with modern journalists hyping every event." Today's coverage is much more alarmist. In 2008, few reporters pointed out "the differences between today's economy and the nation's darkest economic years, or bothered to note that America is not in a depression."

 

So let me stop here to repeat that. We are not in a depression. We are not even in recession. Get a grip, guys. We ought to point out that whatever today's problems bring, we are far away from reliving the Depression.

 

As Amity Shlaes points out in her book "The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression" by November 1933, unemployment had skyrocketed to over 23%. Think about that: 5% unemployment today vs. 23% during the Depression. Amidst today's talk of stock market "collapse," remember that during the Depression, the Dow plummeted to 90, a loss of nearly 75% of its previous value. "This downturn is to the Depression as a drizzle is to Katrina," Miss Shlaes, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, says. "In the Depression, America confronted deflation. There literally wasn't enough money. People made their own scrip, Monopoly money, to pay their bills. In Utah, they made a currency called the Vallar. Today, we are in an inflation. If this period is like anything, it is like the 1970s."

 

Positive news doesn't fit the narrative. On a day the Dow rose, writes BMI's Dan Gainor, ABC "Reporter Dan Harris seemed puzzled during the ... broadcast of 'World News with Charles Gibson' when he asked: 'The sky is not falling. Why not?'"

 

All three major broadcast networks are culpable. But BMI says CBS was the worst. That's typical when it comes to economic coverage, BMI added. "Business reporter Anthony Mason was even called 'the grim reaper' by his own anchor Katie Couric." "Early Show" co-host Julie Chen talked about "a world financial crisis" as if a "crisis" was just a given.

 

The state of economic reporting in this country is abysmal. We might laugh at it if it didn't have bad consequences. But the more people hear such inappropriate comparisons, the more apt they are to believe them and change their behavior accordingly — investing less and taking fewer economic risks — thereby aggravating bad economic conditions.

 

Mr. Gainor writes: "On March 17, 2008, USAToday.com reported the majority of Americans thought a new 'depression' was likely. 'Asked if the nation could slip into a depression lasting several years, 59 percent said it was likely, and 79 percent said they were worried about it ... 'Americans weren't just feeling the pain of an economic downturn. They were repeating what they were told in the mainstream media.'"

 

No wonder, as the Associated Press reported, "U.S. consumers are the gloomiest they've been since the tail end of the last prolonged recession."

 

It's true that GDP wasn't strong in 2007, but it did grow: 2.2% in 2007 and another 0.6% in the first quarter of 2008. There have been job losses, but that shouldn't come as a surprise. The remarkably unpublicized good news is the millions of new jobs that have been created: Before January of this year, America had had positive job growth for 52 straight months.

 

I am not saying the 1929 coverage was great; looking back, much of it was naive. I'm also not saying there are no economic problems today. But today's problems are no excuse for reporters to make glib comparisons to the Great Depression.

Mr. Stossel, co-anchor of ABC News' "20/20," is the author of "Myth, Lies, and Downright Stupidity

*************************

Underlining is mine not the articel but I think it makes my point.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I am not saying the 1929 coverage was great; looking back, much of it was naive. I'm also not saying there are no economic problems today. But today's problems are no excuse for reporters to make glib comparisons to the Great Depression.

Mr. Stossel, co-anchor of ABC News' "20/20," is the author of "Myth, Lies, and Downright Stupidity

*************************

Underlining is mine not the articel but I think it makes my point.

 

They say that when your neighbor loses his job, it's a recession. When you lose your job, it's a depression.

 

I don't know who to attribute that quote/saying to, though.

[SFP]

My husband said it just an hour ago. ;)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

My husband said it just an hour ago. ;)

 

Most recently then:

 

When your neighbor loses his job, it's a recession. When you lose your job, it's a depression. ~Mr. SFP

 

:D

[Peela]

OK here is another idea I have been using which will not save you heaps but for someone it may be useful. I have stopped washing my hair. I have wavy blonde shoulder length hair, very fine, and i was tired of the expensive shampoo/condtioner I was feeling I needed to buy to keep it looking ok, and I seemed to need to use it almost every day. Cheap shampoo/conditioner turns it to straw.

I found this article:

http://www.naturemoms.com/no-shampoo-alternative.html

I decided to try it. I had tried no shampoo before and gave up within days. I am not one who can stand having greasy hair for long. So this method involves using baking soda and lemon juice or vinegar. A tbs or 2 of baking soda made into a paste, rub into scalp, leave for a minute, rinse out, then rinse with a solution of 1 or 2 tbs lemon juice/ vinegar diluted in a few cups of water.

Its been almost 5 weeks now and I haven't even been tempted to touch the shampoo bottle. I am amazed myself. My hair is clean, it has more natural curl, and it is slowly producing less oil. I use the soda/lemon juice every 3 days or so and just wet my hair the other two days.

I feel really good not having to buy expensive hair products that only make you more and more dependent on them. I really didn't think this method would work, and I am probably a bit of a hair snob- really, I do care what my hair looks like- and I was very surprised this method actually works.

[Michelle My Bell]

I guess what bothered me was not that I was offended, but that the tone of your and Michelle's posts was that others in this thread were nuts and doomsday hysterics. That's how it came across to ME. As though people such as myself are simply over reacting and don't know anything about real hardship. It came across as very patronizing.

 

Martha,

 

I guess I need to clarify. I wasn't talking about this post in particular, just all over the internet, TV etc... there are reports and discussions that had been causing me to feel anxious. It is not that I don't believe any of the reports, I honestly don't know what is to come in the future and I don't discount that we could be headed downward. It is that I needed to refocus my attention to my Lord to alleviate my fears.

 

Now that I have given this to Him, I feel SOOO much better. I have been and I am planning on continuing to stock up and other things. In fact for the first time this year ever I have put in a garden and have made canned jam. I am learning so much and I have been reading more than ever about the old time skills. I have always thought them something valuable to learn, but this year I took the plunge and went for it.

 

Anyhow, I hope you know where I was coming from now.

 

Michelle

[Cheryl in NM]

Okay, I've started a new thread for those of us that were enjoying the lists people were posting about how they were saving money.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39836

[love2read]

This thread was started by someone who posted that they were convinced that we are heading to a depression.

 

I don't see that in the original post at all. I read in one of the posts that some theorists are convinced that we are in a depression. Where did you see one of the people on this board say they were convinced?

 

Since the subject heading was asking a question of those who are preparing, why would you even respond if you aren't? Why not just start another thread?

[RebeccaC]

I don't see that in the original post at all. I read in one of the posts that some theorists are convinced that we are in a depression. Where did you see one of the people on this board say they were convinced?

 

Since the subject heading was asking a question of those who are preparing, why would you even respond if you aren't? Why not just start another thread?

 

Well the original poster posted this,

 

What are you doing? A local talk show has been interviewing financial analysts and they have convinced me that we are on our way to a depression over the next two months.

 

Underline and bold are mine but she wrote convinced me. So I saw it on the very first post and if you reread the post or my quote from the post you will see that the very first post states the the poster is convinced.

 

I am sorry if I have offended you but she wrote it not me and I guess you read it to quickly.

 

As to starting another thread, why? I responded they way I felt I should we are not heading toward a depression and we are not in a recession so why prepare for something that is nothing more than fear mongering to get ratings for radio talk shows. These talk shows can find analysts who will say anything and you do not get high rating putting on analysts that say everything is coming up daisies especially in an election year.

 

The original poster also posted,

 

A lot of it was over my head,.

So I posted to try and help her see and anyone else reading that we are not even in a recession much less a depression. So I guess that my way of dealing with this is to prepare folks to see that that things are not as bad as the media is claiming. I think that the John Stossel (sp?) article sums up what the media has been doing nicely. Did you take time to read that?

 

I hope that this reads nicely because that is my intent. I am not trying to flame you. Slow down and read the post carefully and you will see that I am right the original poster posted that she was convinced. Read the Stossel article and again you will see the whole thing from a another angle.

 

I have no problem with talking about emergency preparedness, ways to save money, cut expenses, or common sense pantry filling but doing it from a false premise that we are heading into a depression is a whole nother ball of wax.

[Sara R]

One problem is that Stossel's take on the current economy is that he's trusting the numbers the government is putting out. Believing that the economy is growing slowly depends on also believing that inflation is in the 3% range--which defies common sense. Other countries' inflation is in the 10% range, and their currency is stronger than ours. The government has changed how it calculates the inflation and employment numbers since the 1970s. There's an article in Harpers Magazine that explains it more fully.

[RebeccaC]

Well Stossel states, quotes, that this economy is like the late 70s economy which was all about high inflation and oil problems. Stossel points out the difference between depression, recession, and high inflation. We are in an economy that at the moment has some high inflation due to oil problems there is no doubt about that. The depression tho as Stossel points out was about deflation. However unlike the 70s we have low unemployment and low interest rates so it is not as bad as it was in the 70s. Are folks hurting yes.

 

Today, we are in an inflation. If this period is like anything, it is like the 1970s."

 

This was from the Stossel article and he was quoting,

As Amity Shlaes points out in her book

 

The governments way of figuring inflation is flawed there is no doubt about that. I totally agree with you on that one :iagree:

 

There is tho plenty of doubt about the media's alarm cry of recession and depression. If this thread had stated what are you doing to prepare for high inflation I might have just lurked or posted a few ideas.

[Liz CA]

What we are doing:

 

1. Looking at buying a house. We qualify for about a $50,000 mortgage (excellent credit with lousy income stinks), and around here we can get a 3 bed, 1-2 bath on 1-3 acres for $35,000-$50,000 if we ask around and don't mind a light fixer-upper. Having our own place would allow us to put in a nice garden and have lots of room for outside recreation and other money-saving or money-making endeavors.

 

Good Grief! A real house for $ 50,000??? I am living in the WRONG area!

Do you mind disclosing what state this is?

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

This makes a lot of sense, when I was growing up my mom cleaned our combs by soaking them in baking soda/vinegar and water. You could see the oil and dirt float to the surface of the water.

[lynn]

Well Stossel states, quotes, that this economy is like the late 70s economy which was all about high inflation and oil problems. Stossel points out the difference between depression, recession, and high inflation. We are in an economy that at the moment has some high inflation due to oil problems there is no doubt about that. The depression tho as Stossel points out was about deflation. However unlike the 70s we have low unemployment and low interest rates so it is not as bad as it was in the 70s. Are folks hurting yes.

 

 

 

This was from the Stossel article and he was quoting,

 

The governments way of figuring inflation is flawed there is no doubt about that. I totally agree with you on that one :iagree:

 

There is tho plenty of doubt about the media's alarm cry of recession and depression. If this thread had stated what are you doing to prepare for high inflation I might have just lurked or posted a few ideas.

 

Another huge difference between 1970 issues and now is people did not live off credit like they do now. There was no housing ATM, people just did not go out and buy everything on a whim with credit.

[amary]

What are you doing? A local talk show has been interviewing financial analysts and they have convinced me that we are on our way to a depression over the next two months.

 

 

I never said I was convinced we were in a depression, but that we were on our way to a depression.

I believe God is good too. I don't think he expects us to say "catch" if we are standing at the edge of a cliff and start to fall. He gave us reason so that we would bring a rope with us. Lots of holy Christians starve or rely on foods supplied by others, who used the good reason that God gave them to plan ahead. I think I would rather be one of those who can "give food to the hungry." I'm not going to toss around isolated scripture verses with you, but we are admonished to know the signs of the times, to be prudent and industreous. We are to trust God and my understanding about the birds of the air is that trusting God is avoid disquieting, tormenting thoughts and not to make use of only that small part of our brain that would equal the capabilities of a bird brain. I don't think my first post showed signs of disquieting, tormenting thoughts. I'm sorry that you chose to hijack this thread. I'm picking up on some spiritual pride in your notes and it seems that this board really isn't the place for things like that.

 

The talk show that I was listening to wasn't one of the national shows that push a conservative or liberal agenda. This local show regularly interviews professors and theorists. It went over my head because they were discussing the theories of long dead economists like Ludwig Von Mises and others. They were comparing the economies in Italy and other countries that were floundering before the Euro dollar and relating it to our situation. If you're familiar with the collapse of some European economies before the Euro dollar this won't surprise you. One big factor in all of this is that the our federal reserve doesn't have the gold to back up our dollar. Our national and personal debt is out of control and business and personal bankruptcies are escalating. I did chart everything that they have been predicting since last November and it's all falling into place.

 

If you can provide me with some theoretical articles and charts to back up what you are saying, I will take a look at them. I would love to be persuaded that we aren't headed for a depression and I think it is possible to be avoided, but it would involve, in part, major job transplants back to our country and I don't know if it can happen fast enough. I've heard the knee jerk reaction that all is fine in our newspaper but I don't see them backing it up with facts, just a "feeling" and a rather superficial understanding of how the market and economy work.

 

Incidentally, I have been watching the market and the predictions that were discussed on these shows. I won't list the subtler things that they mentioned back in November that have happened, but some of the things that you would have heard on the news

-bank bail out by federal reserve

-federal reserve stating that they couldn't and wouldn't bail out any other banks

-most recently the announcement that we are in a bear market

 

Of course a bear market is perfect for those who know how to play the stock market. Based on the notes that I took, this is what is predicted to happen next. -The Dow should start to climb and some may say we are in a bull market, but it will only be a brief bounce.

-People will be very optimistic, but it will be short lived.

-After a short bounce a dramatic down phase will begin. It will last about 8 to 14 weeks with devastating results. At some point in that down phase the government will acknowledge that we are in a recession and at the end of the down phase the index will stay low and it will be obvious that there is a depression.

 

[Sara R]

I agree that a good first place to look at how we will deal with what's ahead is by looking at the 70s. I've been polling my parents to see what people were doing back then. Like the 70s, I've seen a huge boom in interest in gardening.

 

But there are other things the economy is dealing with that we weren't dealing with in the 70s. The bones of the economy were good back then. There were manufacturing jobs. Now the economy is mostly service jobs, which can be easily lost when a tapped-out consumer cuts back. The economy is 70% based on the consumer!

 

Also, like was stated above, credit is prevalent now in a way that it wasn't in the 70s. When that credit evaporates (we haven't fully felt that yet, since the credit cards are still lending; I predict that credit cards are going to start shutting off credit lines within a year) and people have to rely on cash, it's going to feel like a depression to them.

 

Also, in the 70s, there were wage increases to help people keep up with inflation. That is less likely to happen now because of globalization. So our purchasing power just keeps going down. Bernacke seems to think that's a sign that there really isn't any inflation after all--

 

Also, consumers aren't the only ones over their heads in debt. Municipalities are too (Vallejo, California went bankrupt a month or so ago, and many other California towns may follow as property tax revenues go down), and so is the federal government, of course. That's part of why the dollar is tanking. Peter Schiff, one of the guys I've been listening to, predicts that the dollar is going to keep going down unless the government acts strongly to stop it. Volcker in the 1980s stopped inflation with the high interest rates you mention. That's what needs to be done today too, but the consequences for the government would be catastrophic, because the government has so much more debt to pay interest on than in the 1970s.

 

Maybe you're right, that "depression" isn't quite the right word. "Inflationary depression," maybe. Actually there's a lot of debate among doom-and-gloomers about whether we are heading into deflation or inflation. Some people look at all of the credit (i.e. money supply) evaporating and say this is deflation. That's small comfort at the supermarket--

[RebeccaC]

 

Maybe you're right, that "depression" isn't quite the right word. "Inflationary depression," maybe. Actually there's a lot of debate among doom-and-gloomers about whether we are heading into deflation or inflation. Some people look at all of the credit (i.e. money supply) evaporating and say this is deflation. That's small comfort at the supermarket--

 

 

Well isn't inflationary depression an oxymoron? Here is an economic definition of the word depression

Depression

A severe and prolonged recession characterized by inefficient economic productivity, high unemployment, and falling price levels.

I do not see how one can have an inflationary (high inflated prices) depression. I remember the 70s I got my first job in 1974. We were doing a lot of what has been posted here many times over the past few months under thread titles that were less speculative.

 

Depression is the result of a prolonged recession which we have not been in since 80/81. We are not now in a recession and so there is probably no coming depression in the near future. The inflation we are experiencing may pass quicker than we think it is based on one factor speculation of future oil prices. Or some ones gamble about what will happen in the near future. A lot of things can change the futures market and how folks gamble there. The chiefest being our committing to drilling. Just our country committing to drilling every where we can could be enough to stay the gamblers. The invention of new ways to get oil without drilling it from the ground would be enough to chase of the gamble of the speculators. Committing to build more refineries would also cause speculators to reevaluate their gambling practices.

 

In the 70s there was an oil shortage there is not one right now. You can pull into any gas station and find gas and oil. In the 70s there were huge lines to get gas, some were an hour long and sometimes the line ended because there was no gas. I have yet to see gas line in the US. So this is a bit like the 70s but it is not the 70s.

 

Jobs have changed that is true. We have job markets we did not have in the 70s in the field of technology. Unions were stronger and got concessions in many areas that have ruined some company's. Thinking right now of the auto industry. That in the end cost a lot of the manufacturing jobs and the shift in the job market here.

 

Bottom line is we are not in a recession much less a depression. We can not be headed toward a depression unless we have been in a recession. What we have is a bit of hard times brought on by speculators. As always in hard time folks and governments who are on the edge pay the price first but the nation will recover. The nation will not go into a depression.

[Sara R]

Well isn't inflationary depression an oxymoron?

 

It's what they called stagflation in the 70s, but more.

 

We are not now in a recession and so there is probably no coming depression in the near future.

 

The reason why the gov't numbers say we aren't in a recession is because the gov't numbers underestimate inflation. GDP minus inflation equals growth. If you plug in an artificially low number for inflation, you get an artificially high number for growth (or in the case of the past few months, you get a barely positive number for growth when it should be negative).

 

 

The inflation we are experiencing may pass quicker than we think it is based on one factor speculation of future oil prices. Or some ones gamble about what will happen in the near future. A lot of things can change the futures market and how folks gamble there. The chiefest being our committing to drilling. Just our country committing to drilling every where we can could be enough to stay the gamblers. The invention of new ways to get oil without drilling it from the ground would be enough to chase of the gamble of the speculators. Committing to build more refineries would also cause speculators to reevaluate their gambling practices.[/url]

 

If the powers that be really want to get money out of the futures markets, they would dramatically raise interest rates. Right now the futures markets is nearly the only place making any money. Savings accounts in the bank are losing purchasing power due to inflation. Stocks are going down, and bonds aren't as safe as people think if municipalities are getting less money and can't repay their debts. Not to mention that the interest they are paying is less than inflation. Like I mentioned in the other thread we have a small amount in a commodities index fund, because there's not many other places where you won't lose money. If you could earn 10+% interest in a bank, we'd move it there.

 

In the 70s there was an oil shortage there is not one right now. You can pull into any gas station and find gas and oil. In the 70s there were huge lines to get gas, some were an hour long and sometimes the line ended because there was no gas. I have yet to see gas line in the US. So this is a bit like the 70s but it is not the 70s.

 

There is an oil supply issue. Global demand for oil is 87 million barrels per day, but global supply is only 85 million barrels. That's the basic reason why prices have risen so dramatically. It hasn't led to gas lines, but if the government instituted price controls you'd see shortages again. Even the Wall Street Journal is starting to talk about Peak Oil.

[RebeccaC]

If you can provide me with some theoretical articles and charts to back up what you are saying, I will take a look at them.

 

Theoretical is an interesting word. I was trained as an archaeologist and worked in the field and theoretical is at it's bottom level is a guess. A guess based on observation but a guess none the less. Theories are more often wrong than they are right. Most of the theories about who Anazi are and what happened to them are wrong. One scientist can make observations come to a conclusion and another will look at the same data and come to a totally opposite conclusion. It is the same with economists. One economist or even school of economics can look at data and trends and come to a conclusion that other economists and will not come to. Reading the times based on theories is shaky ground. It is taking man's word/guess for truth or possible truth.

 

As far as the scripture goes we are always to live prudent lives. Not just when we think a depression might or might not be coming. Every one wants to be the person who gives and I hope that that is always the case with you and your family however just about every one has a time in their life like Job had. Where they hit hard times that they did not ask for or even sow and are on the other side of giving in some manner. It does not always have to be financial or food wise.

 

I'm sorry that you chose to hijack this thread. I'm picking up on some spiritual pride in your notes and it seems that this board really isn't the place for things like that

 

As to the judgement on whether I posted out of spiritual pride I will leave with you and the Lord to hash out. It is your opinion of what should be posted on these boards. I have not heard from either moderators or Susan that I should not post what God has done or that I am in spiritual pride.

 

Like I posted I had a stock pile for Y2K that helped for a bit after 9/11 but only for a short time. The only thing that has had lasting effect was faith. What happens to a stock pile of food, tools, clothing, ect... when a natural disaster takes it all away? Katrina, the floods in the Midwest, the wild fires in the west have made stock piles moot, useless. Any stock piles in China were in a few seconds wiped out. When stockpiles are wipe out no one has anything to give other than faith and hope. Things happen in life that make for level playing fields and no amount of planning will lessen their impact but faith will and that was my point. If that is spiritual pride then I want more.

 

As to hijacking I did not set out to hijack but was attacked by some one on what I posted and I defend myself. My only intention was to be a voice of reason, that it is not the opinion of all economists that we are heading to a depression and therefore premise of this thread was flawed.

 

While you may not have felt fear in starting this thread, a thread with a title like this thread can whip up fear in others. Do these boards need threads that might cause others to fear or posts that might build faith?

 

The other side of this issue, we probably are not headed in to a depression, needed to be voiced and so I voiced it. For daring to voice an opposing opinion I have repeatedly been attack. Which says something about the spirit of this thread. When the opposing voice must not be given......

 

I happen to fall in with the camp of economists who do not think we are not headed to a depression and that this will turn. I had no intention of convincing you that we are not headed for a depression I did have the intention of trying to show that the media is breeding fear for the sake of ratings.

[RebeccaC]

If the powers that be really want to get money out of the futures markets, they would dramatically raise interest rates.

 

I wager that they will raise once they are past the housing crisis. They are giving home owners a window to get their mortgages in order. Think Bush said something about Dec at one point. Once that is done they will go up.

 

There is an oil supply issue. Global demand for oil is 87 million barrels per day, but global supply is only 85 million barrels. That's the basic reason why prices have risen so dramatically. It hasn't led to gas lines, but if the government instituted price controls you'd see shortages again. Even the Wall Street Journal is starting to talk about Peak Oil.

 

Yes there is a supply issue so why are we not using our resources and drilling? There have also been some breakthroughs in developing oil with out drilling I posted about one company a couple of months ago who is making oil from biomass, http://www.bellbioenergy.com It is not as doom and gloom as it looks there is oil technology coming that will help. Here is one that is not as spectacular as the above link but take a look at this, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4133668.ece

 

What I wonder is why the media has not picked up on the first company and technology, Bell. That is good news tho and would not help with ratings :001_smile:

[Murphy101]

well I'm disappointed this thread got rerailed, but I'll contribute anyways..

 

I'm actually okay with NOT drilling. I have high hopes that the high gas prices will finally, FINALLY force some creative use of non petrol energy sources. And I foresee those non petrol courses becoming easier to use and mroe affordable and thus more attainable and more widely used by common people such as myself.

 

We need to stop think in the same stupid oil barrel.

It's time for that old fashioned american ingenuity to be put to use again.

 

Simple things would make this gas crisis much easier for people such as myself.

 

Walk paths and bike paths planned into street contrustion and city development. Both of these are almost non existant in my city and county. I have many things that I'd be willing to bike or walk to in my vicinity, but it's literally too dangerous, imho, for an adult to do so, much less a family or kids. I see the occassional kid or adult and it really makes me cringe how just a few inches into the road could get them at least seriously injured.

 

Once you leave the east or west coasts, there's not very many cities with a reliable mass transit system. A few major citites up north, like Chicago, but that's nearly it. My cities transit system is a complete useless disgrace. It doesn't go hardly anywhere, cost a small fortune, isn't timely, and it takes literally a half dozen stops and up to 3 hours to get to a distination you could drive straight to in less than 20 minutes.

 

I'm glad to see inovative people using solar cars and electric cars. No, it's not practical for me until they can do it for a 12 or 15 passenger van, but it's a great idea and a great start.

 

Neccessity is the mother of invention.

Americans need to quit looking for the quick fix way to do things for instant gratification and start inventing again.

 

So no, as hard as the gas and food prices are hitting us, I'm not for more drilling. If for no other reaosn that it's only a temporary fix, if that. But those inventors are where the real future lies and genuine energy security.

[Sara R]

Yes there is a supply issue so why are we not using our resources and drilling?

 

I agree that we should, but I don't think it would have a large effect on oil prices. It would take about 10 years for increased drilling to affect supply, and compared to demand the US doesn't have a whole lot left. I read this interesting article looking at the drilling argument from a Peak Oil standpoint. It's her point of view that we should start drilling now, because it takes oil to produce oil, and if we wait much longer it might get too late to extract what we have under the ground.

[Jenny in Florida]

The other side of this issue, we probably are not headed in to a depression, needed to be voiced and so I voiced it. For daring to voice an opposing opinion I have repeatedly been attack. Which says something about the spirit of this thread. When the opposing voice must not be given......

 

I happen to fall in with the camp of economists who do not think we are not headed to a depression and that this will turn. I had no intention of convincing you that we are not headed for a depression I did have the intention of trying to show that the media is breeding fear for the sake of ratings.

 

It seems to me that folks are getting really hung up on the semantics of this. Whether you want to call it a recession or a depression or a slowing of economic growth, the fact is that a lot of folks are hurting already and have good reason to believe there may be worse to come.

 

My family is fine. My husband has a job and makes a nice salary. Plus, he's recently inherited a nice little chunk of money. It's not a life-changing amount, but it certainly gives us some breathing room we've never had. So, I'm not feeling this personally. However, we have friends who are. We know one family in which one parent has been unemployed for months and the other has seen his income drop because he is employed in an industry that suffers whenever there is an economic pinch. They're scraping, and they're not the only people we know in that situation. Just look at the number of threads from people right here who are having to cut back because the primary breadwinner has lost a job or has been cut back, or simply because the salary that was fine a year ago cannot keep pace with the rising costs of food and fuel.

 

For those people, the semantics really don't matter. What matters is that they are losing ground and have every reason to think things may get worse before they get better. And to those people, being lectured about the official definitions of the words "recession" and "depression" is not only unhelpful but insensitive.

 

The fact is that even "the experts" disagree about exactly what is going on and what we can expect in the near future. It's no wonder that the rest of us are feeling uncertain. And it seems to me to be prudent to do some thinking and planning ahead, particularly if you know you are vulnerable. I mean, the folks here who counseled everyone to just keep spending . . . Are they going to be around to feed the families of the folks who wanted to save, instead?

 

For what it's worth, I thought the hoopla about Y2K was just silly, probably because my husband was working on the problem and had a pretty good sense of how big a problem it was or wasn't likely to be. Then 9/11 came along and pulled the rug out from under us. I was already working part-time to try and cushion us from the upheavals of having my husband working as an independent contractor. When everyone quit travelling, I got laid off for a couple of months. At the same time, my husband's job was cut back. It took a couple of years and help from relatives to regain any kind of financial equilibrium after that. It wasn't a recession or a depression, but it was a very bad patch for us. And, certainly, if I'd had any hints it was coming, I would have taken some "just in case" steps to prepare.

 

I mean, we live in Florida, where we have hurricaine season every year. Most years, it passes us by without a whimper, and those bottles of water and canned goods gathering dust on the bottom shelves of my pantry seem kind of silly. But every now and then, we have three major storms go over our heads in a single season and we lose electricity more than once for at least a few days and the stores have emptier-than-usual shelves, and the gas stations can't open because they don't have power. When that happens, I'm really glad I followed the suggestions I got from that terrible, unreliable media and made some basic preparations.

 

Given the current economic situation, I really don't see why the same principle doesn't apply? I don't think there's cause to panic, but I also don't think it's necessary to scorn those among us who have concerns and choose to allay them by being prepared?

[RebeccaC]

I agree that we should, but I don't think it would have a large effect on oil prices. It would take about 10 years for increased drilling to affect supply, and compared to demand the US doesn't have a whole lot left. I read this interesting article looking at the drilling argument from a Peak Oil standpoint. It's her point of view that we should start drilling now, because it takes oil to produce oil, and if we wait much longer it might get too late to extract what we have under the ground.

 

 

That was an interesting article. I just wonder what effect it would have on market speculation if our country committed to drilling. I think it might slow it down a bit but who knows.

 

I know that I was really please to see that one of the Dakotas vote to build a new refinery which should also help some.

 

Bottom line in my opinion is we need to do a few things like drilling and refinery building while working on alternative that really work and are reliable.

I really don't see it as an either or but as a transition to and technology on the alternates just is not there to fully transition us off of oil.