Ack!! I just bought a bunch of Winter Promise stuff, then heard "no re-sell"...

[Johanna]

:iagree:

[happygrrl]

The above reasons are why I no longer buy from WP, as well as the fact that my backordered items *never* came. I know that they were dealing with unexpected load of new customers when I purchased, but their poor customer service about the issue cost them my business. In the long run it worked out well for me, as it drove me to the WTM and subsequently different and much more appropriate (for me) curriculum choices. It did take me a while to get over my frustration. I was not even able to read posts about WP for a while! I am glad I feel neutral about them again! :)

[Kate CA]

Now having said that, one thought I had about their particular policy is that their "exclusives" are basically a packet of paper stuffs (notebooking pages, timeline figures, etc.) that could very easily be copied and REPEATEDLY sold, and sold, and sold...yes, even their TM. This form of 'reselling' could most definitely cause the company some grief. :001_huh:

 

 

 

Not only that, but you could be sued for copyright infringment. You may be able to legally resell the actual items you purchased and received from the company, but you cannot legally copy and sell any of their copyrighted items. That is prosecutable and really, I think it should be. :) We cannot copy just anything and a worker is worthy of his wages. (Not that you were saying to copy and sell it, but it would be more than "grief" for those involved.) :)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

While I understand that writers make their living from the number of books sold-the issue here isn't infringement of the writer's copyright but rather the rights of the owner.

 

We are not discussing repeated duplication of an original work being resold. We aren't even discussion an "authorized vendor" undercutting the normal price by discounting in violation of their contract. We are talking about the legal owner of an item reselling that one item, one time. It doesn't matter if the "garage sale" of choice is in your own yard, at the local homeschool swap, on the boards, craigslist or an auction site like eBay. If you own the material it is yours to resell, give to a friend or donate to charity. I can sell my grandmothers china (although I cannot duplicate the pattern and sell it), I can sell those shoes I can't wear after the last baby, I can sell the cool Pottery Barn pillow covers that don't match my new sofa...I can even sell the 200lbs of lego the kids have collected (ok-I can't really unless I want them to kick me out of the house-but in theory).

 

I have to believe that it is a unenforceable policy and one that only upsets potential customers. I know that especially in the world of homeschool publishing it is difficult to have your business succeed when everyone resells your stuff but sometimes that is just unfortunate. There is a huge gulf between copyrights and property rights. One doesn't get to supersede the other. My small grasp of the law (and I am not trained in any aspect of the law) is that I, the individual, retain my rights over my property, which I assume to mean that I can resell an item which I have legally purchased as long as in doing so I do not violate another's copyrights.

 

In the meantime, when I am able, I try to support the smaller publishing houses and suppliers by purchasing directly from the source.

[woolybear]

Well, the way I understand it is, you are allowed to resell things you buy from them, just not WP exclusives. I believe you can give these things away. So.... if you wanted to resell a package, you could resell all items that are not exclusives and include those "free". That being said, I believe some people do this and then charge a bit more for those items they are selling. So in the end, they might not really be giving the exclusives away. It seems, after having written this out, a bit silly. But I guess it is a way around it. So far, I have only bought WP items used. I've been very happy with their stuff, but it is alot of money new.

[Baseballmom]

I was also hesitant to order from WP because of the resale policy. After much prayer, I bought the whole package and I feel like for those who buy the whole package their resale policy actually makes sense. My IG was free so I don't lose anything by not reselling it. But, I would not feel bad about giving it away. The other WP exclusives are consumable so the only way you could resell those items is if you copy it for your use and then sell it new. That is actually what they are trying to prevent. Now if you bought an exclusive, but didn't use it (and didn't make a copy if it,) I don't see why it would be unethical to resell it in that situation. I believe those situations would be rare and would not hurt the company. But they do have a 100% guarentee if you send it back within 4 weeks. I can still resell the books that came with the package when we are done.

[RebeccaC]

I was also hesitant to order from WP because of the resale policy. After much prayer, I bought the whole package and I feel like for those who buy the whole package their resale policy actually makes sense. My IG was free so I don't lose anything by not reselling it. But, I would not feel bad about giving it away. The other WP exclusives are consumable so the only way you could resell those items is if you copy it for your use and then sell it new. That is actually what they are trying to prevent. Now if you bought an exclusive, but didn't use it (and didn't make a copy if it,) I don't see why it would be unethical to resell it in that situation. I believe those situations would be rare and would not hurt the company. But they do have a 100% guarantee if you send it back within 4 weeks. I can still resell the books that came with the package when we are done.

 

 

Your TM was not free. What WP uses is a marketing ploy. WP is not printing off their TM for free (on very expensive paper I might add) for anyone the price of printing the TM is figured in to the total package amount and hidden. For instance I could have bought Galileo for Kids: new at Amazon for almost $5 cheaper and even gotten it with free shipping but at WP I would have paid $17. plus shipping. WP probably paid less than what Amazon charges for it and I would wager makes at least $5 probably more off of the book. They are in business to make money not to give away free TMs. The price of the TM is calculated into the package price, and maybe even into the shipping costs, but since it is not listed it looks like it is free. WP makes more money selling like this than if they just sold their exclusive items. It is the same with Sonlight.

 

WP buys all the books its sells at dealer price, when they sell a book above what the publisher recommends or even charges for the book that helps cover the price of the TM. Then added on top of making more money (and there is nothing wrong with that,) they add a bit of guilt as in we gave you the TM for free so please don't resell it. Which in my opinion is a bit deceptive and wrong.

 

If they were really so charitable they would do it like FIAR does, here is a reasonable price for the TM buy the books on your own or better yet use your public library and only pay for TM. The FIAR TM will have quite a bit more commentary added to it more than the WP TM does and thus in my opinion has more of the author's creativity invested in it. WP does not do this because their TM is basically a glorified schedule with a few CM type games added in. There is, at least with S&S, no commentary at all. The creativity is in the captain's log notebooking pages and does not reach the academic level of the FIAR commentary in my opinion.

 

In S&S I checked every book for sale and found some charged above what the publisher sold the books for and what the publisher suggested the books be sold for. It is just like here on the sale board you will see shipping for free but what that means is the gal has already figured the cost of shipping into her price and is using the marketing ploy of buy from me because you are getting something for free.

 

This is not a slam just the facts. WP and Sonlight and anyone else who tells you the TM is for free is using a marketing ploy.

[Baseballmom]

You are right, it isn't "FREE", but I did a comparison for AS2 from WP and Amazon and in the end I did save around $55 buying from WP. The TM sells for $70 but I still feel like it was a good deal and definatley made my life easier, which is why I chose WP this year instead of TOG.

Dorothy

 

Your TM was not free. What WP uses is a marketing ploy. WP is not printing off their TM for free (on very expensive paper I might add) for anyone the price of printing the TM is figured in to the total package amount and hidden. For instance I could have bought Galileo for Kids: new at Amazon for almost $5 cheaper and even gotten it with free shipping but at WP I would have paid $17. plus shipping. WP probably paid less than what Amazon charges for it and I would wager makes at least $5 probably more off of the book. They are in business to make money not to give away free TMs. The price of the TM is calculated into the package price, and maybe even into the shipping costs, but since it is not listed it looks like it is free. WP makes more money selling like this than if they just sold their exclusive items. It is the same with Sonlight.

 

WP buys all the books its sells at dealer price, when they sell a book above what the publisher recommends or even charges for the book that helps cover the price of the TM. Then added on top of making more money (and there is nothing wrong with that,) they add a bit of guilt as in we gave you the TM for free so please don't resell it. Which in my opinion is a bit deceptive and wrong.

 

If they were really so charitable they would do it like FIAR does, here is a reasonable price for the TM buy the books on your own or better yet use your public library and only pay for TM. The FIAR TM will have quite a bit more commentary added to it more than the WP TM does and thus in my opinion has more of the author's creativity invested in it. WP does not do this because their TM is basically a glorified schedule with a few CM type games added in. There is, at least with S&S, no commentary at all. The creativity is in the captain's log notebooking pages and does not reach the academic level of the FIAR commentary in my opinion.

 

In S&S I checked every book for sale and found some charged above what the publisher sold the books for and what the publisher suggested the books be sold for. It is just like here on the sale board you will see shipping for free but what that means is the gal has already figured the cost of shipping into her price and is using the marketing ploy of buy from me because you are getting something for free.

 

This is not a slam just the facts. WP and Sonlight and anyone else who tells you the TM is for free is using a marketing ploy.

[jg_puppy]

Well, the way I understand it is, you are allowed to resell things you buy from them, just not WP exclusives. I believe you can give these things away. So.... if you wanted to resell a package, you could resell all items that are not exclusives and include those "free".

 

You are right that you are allowed to sell the books just not the WP exclusives, but the policy asks that you not include the WP exclusives in any package that you resell. They don't want them sold or given away.

 

Jan

[Homeschooling6]

I may be old fashioned but I will honor the companies request. I may give it away but I will not resell it.

 

My kiddos practice origami with any TM I can't resell ;).

 

We used Calvert and you may resell everything but the TM. Again I have no problem with it.

 

WP gives you the TM for free when you purchase their package. Although I have bought some exclusives that I didn't use and I'm stummped with what to do with them because they were $20.00 each and a $40.00 map.

 

I think of it as supporting my homeschool community and I think this is one way I can help out. WP, Calvert or whoever have put a lot of work into their products.

 

Just my humble opinion:001_smile:

[Kate CA]

While I understand that writers make their living from the number of books sold-the issue here isn't infringement of the writer's copyright but rather the rights of the owner.

 

We are not discussing repeated duplication of an original work being resold.

 

I am not sure if you intended to respond to me or not, but I do know what we are discussing. :) I was addressing something Melissa in CA said and that was all. Just a friendly FYI. :)

[Homeschooling6]

Your TM was not free. What WP uses is a marketing ploy. WP is not printing off their TM for free (on very expensive paper I might add) for anyone the price of printing the TM is figured in to the total package amount and hidden. For instance I could have bought Galileo for Kids: new at Amazon for almost $5 cheaper and even gotten it with free shipping but at WP I would have paid $17. plus shipping. WP probably paid less than what Amazon charges for it and I would wager makes at least $5 probably more off of the book. They are in business to make money not to give away free TMs. The price of the TM is calculated into the package price, and maybe even into the shipping costs, but since it is not listed it looks like it is free. WP makes more money selling like this than if they just sold their exclusive items. It is the same with Sonlight.

 

WP buys all the books its sells at dealer price, when they sell a book above what the publisher recommends or even charges for the book that helps cover the price of the TM. Then added on top of making more money (and there is nothing wrong with that,) they add a bit of guilt as in we gave you the TM for free so please don't resell it. Which in my opinion is a bit deceptive and wrong.

 

If they were really so charitable they would do it like FIAR does, here is a reasonable price for the TM buy the books on your own or better yet use your public library and only pay for TM. The FIAR TM will have quite a bit more commentary added to it more than the WP TM does and thus in my opinion has more of the author's creativity invested in it. WP does not do this because their TM is basically a glorified schedule with a few CM type games added in. There is, at least with S&S, no commentary at all. The creativity is in the captain's log notebooking pages and does not reach the academic level of the FIAR commentary in my opinion.

 

In S&S I checked every book for sale and found some charged above what the publisher sold the books for and what the publisher suggested the books be sold for. It is just like here on the sale board you will see shipping for free but what that means is the gal has already figured the cost of shipping into her price and is using the marketing ploy of buy from me because you are getting something for free.

 

This is not a slam just the facts. WP and Sonlight and anyone else who tells you the TM is for free is using a marketing ploy.

 

I guess for me I prefer to buy most of my curriculum from a homeschooler, even if I am paying more.

 

Not saying that I never buy from Amazon. We are all different and I feel we meaning my family should honor their request. Bottom line is it's business.

 

For me the big saving about buying a core or package is everything is done fore me.I don't have to search all over the place. That in it self is a big time saver for me and worth every penny.

 

Blessings

 

[RebeccaC]

I guess for me I prefer to buy most of my curriculum from a homeschooler, even if I am paying more.

 

Not saying that I never buy from Amazon. We are all different and I feel we meaning my family should honor their request. Bottom line is it's business.

 

For me the big saving about buying a core or package is everything is done fore me.I don't have to search all over the place. That in it self is a big time saver for me and worth every penny.

 

Blessings

 

It is nice to be in the place where you can afford to buy only from a homeschooler but not everyone is kwim :001_smile: The option to use the library, or library sales ,or used curriculum sales, (where one is also buying from a hser,) where ever they might be is a necessity for some.

 

WP's using a marketing ploy is fine but their request is not in my opinion. It doesn't matter that they are hsers or that their company is small. It is a control issue and an infringement on owner ship rights in my opinion and the law does not give them a leg to stand on. Once they sell it they no longer own it and have no right at all to make any kind of a request. I actually think that their request not to resale or give away is unethical and unhealthy as I see it as a control issue on their part.

 

All that written it is OK that your family wants to honor their request. Our family just opted to deny their request and we saw nothing unhonorable in that and felt no guilt about it.

[Kate CA]

I believe that they can not tell you that you can not re-sell their stuff.

 

There is something called "Doctrine of First Sale"

 

It basically says that

 

Yes the Wiki article gives more detail:

 

The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1908 and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. That means that a copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy end once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule".

 

Very interesting reading!

[siloam]

My 2 cents. And this is TOTAL SPECULATION. :D

 

No WP doesn't have a leg to stand on, and yes it is a marketing ploy. Mostly WP, in MY OPINION, is trying to...keep up.

 

2006, the first year I bought from them their business grew 700, yes that is 700%. They also had to move twice that year. And they still hs their children. Got a headache yet?

 

This year they chose not to attend conventions, which they also got publicly slammed for, but I thought it was rather honest of them. They know they have been one step behind in dealing with customers and I think they are ok with having less business at this point. They just don't have the time to deal with used material.

 

From what I have seen they are trying to build infrastructure to deal with the demand. For a while it seemed everyone who called got a new person. I think they have had a really high turn over rate. Probably partly because small companies can't offer the benefits bigger companies can, and partly because I suspect there are a lot of stressed people calling (rightly so) and it is hard to get someone who wants to deal with that day after day.

 

As people I really like the Brooks, both of them. From what I have seen they have good hearts and really try to do the right thing. That said I don't think they have the best business experience, so they are learning that as they go, and I think their priority is keeping their home and hs going first and doing the business second, which I really actually respect even through I don't like that the side effect is policies asking you not to resell the IG.

 

That said when the new policy came out I did stop using WP for history and went to TOG because I prefer TOG's policies and was planning on moving to to them long term anyway. (I only buy the IG's so I don't get them for free either.) I will probably still spring for Sky and Sea down the road, even with the IG policy. If they come out with more full science programs I might consider them as well.

 

Oh and on the pricing. When I worked for a publishing company books were sold at a discount to the retail price:

 

Author paid 50% of retail (yep the author had to buy their own book).

B&N, Amazon and Boarder got 50% off retail.

All other shops got 30% off retail, with a few exceptions which got 40%.

 

My guess is WP would fall into the 30% off unless they made a special deal because they were buying so much of one book, and got closer to the 40%. My guess is they don't quite have that kind of purchasing power yet, and they are at the 30%. I can see SL, for example, as being big enough to get the 40% deal.

 

Heather

[SnowWhite]

 

Oh and on the pricing. When I worked for a publishing company books were sold at a discount to the retail price:

 

Author paid 50% of retail (yep the author had to buy their own book).

B&N, Amazon and Boarder got 50% off retail.

All other shops got 30% off retail, with a few exceptions which got 40%.

 

My guess is WP would fall into the 30% off unless they made a special deal because they were buying so much of one book, and got closer to the 40%. My guess is they don't quite have that kind of purchasing power yet, and they are at the 30%. I can see SL, for example, as being big enough to get the 40% deal.

 

Heather

 

Agreed. AND, since it is IMPOSSIBLE to predict which of the themes will sell like hotcakes, WP can't stay fully stocked all of the materials simultaneously and frequently drop ships from Amazon... where in order to have any profit margin they would have to charge more than Amazon. When I think about this angle, I don't see how they make enough money to pay their employees, much less support a family.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I am not sure if you intended to respond to me or not, but I do know what we are discussing. :) I was addressing something Melissa in CA said and that was all. Just a friendly FYI. :)

 

Actually I was responding to the post in general and just happened to follow you. A critical turning point appears to be the rights of the author/writer-in this case I assume that to be WP as opposed to any individual. Based on your post directly above mine-we seem to be in agreement. I'm not advocating breaking copyright. Just discussing the rights of a legal owner of a single copy-or at least my opionions on this. The later "Doctrine of First Sale" posts seem to put it more eloquently than I was able.

[RebeccaC]

Agreed. AND, since it is IMPOSSIBLE to predict which of the themes will sell like hotcakes, WP can't stay fully stocked all of the materials simultaneously and frequently drop ships from Amazon... where in order to have any profit margin they would have to charge more than Amazon. When I think about this angle, I don't see how they make enough money to pay their employees, much less support a family.

 

 

That still does not justify the request. I think where the Brook's mess up is assuming that every one who buys from WP is a hard core fan of WP and so willing to give up some of their rights to help WP. The beginning of WP was a lot of Karen Brook's followers, people who knew her, looked up to her and really liked her personally and wanting her to publish her schedules and ideas but the company has grown beyond that now. A lot of the people now buying and ordering have no prior friendship or loyalty to either Karen Brooks or WP and asking those folks, people who do not know you or your company, to willing give up ownership rights is tacky, rude, .........

 

It is not common to ask strangers or acquaintances to give up their rights to make your life easier or to help you with your learning curve while you build a business. It is even less common to ask paying costumers to willing give up ownership rights for those reasons. It is a tad bit short sighted and shellfish in my opinion. It is OK I guess if people want to hand over their ownership rights for those reasons but it is not OK to expect every one to do so.

 

Just for the record I have nothing against them personally I just think they have not really thought through what they are requesting and that the request could be viewed as unethical, and.........

[SnowWhite]

That still does not justify the request.

 

I was only addressing the issue of WP prices versus Amazon prices here, not the resale issue in this particular quote.

[SnowWhite]

WP gives you the TM for free when you purchase their package. Although I have bought some exclusives that I didn't use and I'm stummped with what to do with them because they were $20.00 each and a $40.00 map.

 

Linda! I have some GREAT NEWS for you. The map is resellable! According to WP's resale policy page, only the IG, Prayer and Personal Involvement Journal (consumable) and Make Your Own Travel Diary (consumable) are requested for no sale from the CATW set.

[RebeccaC]

I was only addressing the issue of WP prices versus Amazon prices here, not the resale issue in this particular quote.

 

Thanks for clarifying :) I was not sure what your angle was and since most of the thread was about ownership rights.......

[Julie in CA]

My 2 cents. And this is TOTAL SPECULATION. :D

 

Mostly WP, in MY OPINION, is trying to...keep up.

 

2006, the first year I bought from them their business grew 700, yes that is 700%. They also had to move twice that year. And they still hs their children. Got a headache yet?

 

They know they have been one step behind in dealing with customers and I think they are ok with having less business at this point. They just don't have the time to deal with used material.

 

I sympathize with their plight, but my question is this:

Wouldn't it take some of the burden off of their shoulders while still building the overall popularity and reputation of the curriculum if people could buy/sell used copies of the IG? How could it take them any extra time to deal with used material?

 

One other thing I wanted to mention, not that it makes much of a difference regarding my original question, but I *bought* my guides from them. They weren't free, or tossed into a package, because I already owned about a third of the books I needed for the program. If they were truly "giving" me the guide, I guess it would be more reasonable for them to ask that I not sell it afterwards, but no...I'm paying for the guides at full price.

 

Also, fwiw, when I priced books on Amazon it would indeed have been considerably cheaper to purchase them there. Some used, some new. Between my home library and my local library, I just didn't need to buy very many. Thankfully!

 

Who would've thought my original post would've sparked such a discussion?

Overall, I'm just pretty glad that you all didn't think I was a monster for disagreeing with the policy and considering under what terms I might sell regardless of WP's stated policy. I'm sure we're gonna *love* history this year though, so this is all probably beside the point, kwim?

 

Thanks,

Julie

[TraceyS/FL]

It has been interesting to read!

 

I own AW.

 

I debated the purchase with the policy, but i realized that i probably wouldn't sell it anyway. The books were all books that my DD will want to keep around, and the guide may or may not be used another time since i have a younger child. So in the end, i figured that i didn't agree with it - but i wasn't buying with intent to resell anyway.

 

I look forward to getting back to animals next week, our lives have been chaos and i'm beyond ready for some routine.

[siloam]

I sympathize with their plight, but my question is this:

Wouldn't it take some of the burden off of their shoulders while still building the overall popularity and reputation of the curriculum if people could buy/sell used copies of the IG? How could it take them any extra time to deal with used material?

 

Actually they get a lot of request for substitute websites for ones that no longer work, for older notebooking sets that go with the old IG, and for replacement pages when one or two pages are left out of an old IG (notebooking cards, timeline cards, the craft planning lists, ect...).

 

 

One other thing I wanted to mention, not that it makes much of a difference regarding my original question, but I *bought* my guides from them. They weren't free, or tossed into a package, because I already owned about a third of the books I needed for the program. If they were truly "giving" me the guide, I guess it would be more reasonable for them to ask that I not sell it afterwards, but no...I'm paying for the guides at full price.

 

I am with you. I buy the IG's at full price and then purchase the book used. I saved well over $100 by doing this. I just happened to buy then in 2006. :D Lucky me!

 

Who would've thought my original post would've sparked such a discussion?

Overall, I'm just pretty glad that you all didn't think I was a monster for disagreeing with the policy and considering under what terms I might sell regardless of WP's stated policy. I'm sure we're gonna *love* history this year though, so this is all probably beside the point, kwim?

 

Thanks,

Julie

 

I am not surprised, but I have very strong feelings like you. I may understand where they are coming from, but that doesn't mean I think they made the right decision in how they are handling it.

 

Hope you love WP as much as we enjoyed AW!

 

Heather

[Teri H.; Oregon]

but the samples are few on the site and I am very hesitant to give it a try now. :glare:

[txchick]

Once I own it...its mine to resell if I want to or keep if I need it. If they dont want it resold...they should offer to accept them back in exchange for another level or credit towards another level.

 

Seton HOmeschool , for example, sends lesson plans with enrollment. Your expected to send the used lesson plans back to them at the end of the school year. the books are yours to keep or sell..etc. They do this because you can only get lesson plans iwth thier enrollment...I guess.

 

So i assume they are on LOAN not sold.

 

I have not personally ordered from WP but have been interested in their stuff...

 

See if you like it.... If not, return it or sell it....I still say its yours!

[Sahamamama]

Here's the link to their resale policy, for anyone interested and having a hard time finding it:

 

http://www.winterpromise.com/resale_policy.html

 

 

 

HTH.

[Beth in IN]

A just wanted to chime in to this post as it was very interesting to read. I wanted to mention that not all publishers are like WP in their resale policy. For instance. IEW recommends you resell their stuff. Which is brilliant beacuse then you have more money to buy more of their stuff. It also gets people to buy who may be hesitant about purchasing something pricey that may not work for them. That gives them the "safety net" of reselling. Which is a great way to get more business. A lot of us, me included, never get around to reselling our stuff, so there is still plenty of business for the original publisher.

 

I do love IEW so excuse the shameless plug!;)

 

Beth

[Tabrett]

This is not a slam just the facts. WP and Sonlight and anyone else who tells you the TM is for free is using a marketing ploy.

 

SL doen't tell you that the TM is free. You get a discounted price if you buy a package, but you can also just by SL's TMs and use a library card. Just like FAIR.

[Mrs Mungo]

It is OK I guess if people want to hand over their ownership rights for those reasons but it is not OK to expect every one to do so.

 

Just for the record I have nothing against them personally I just think they have not really thought through what they are requesting and that the request could be viewed as unethical, and.........

 

I tend to agree with your view on the situation. I wouldn't go so far as to say what they are requesting is unethical but I don't appreciate from some the implication that ignoring the request of the publisher is unethical (and I've never bought or sold any WP materials).

[SnowWhite]

I tend to agree with your view on the situation. I wouldn't go so far as to say what they are requesting is unethical but I don't appreciate from some the implication that ignoring the request of the publisher is unethical (and I've never bought or sold any WP materials).

 

I hope I didn't imply this? I certainly didn't mean to. I personally wish they would get rid of the request. I find it embarrassing. I think a person can do whatever they want. A request is nothing but a request.

[LaMere Academy]

How is this different from buying ANYTHING used? I mean, do you think clothes designers will begin saying, "No garage selling" their clothes? Or what about the used book sales at the library? Isn't this reselling someone's "work"? Or what about used car lots? Will Ford begin requiring us all to buy new? Maybe I am just not understanding this but ALL of these products put food on someone's table and yet, buying used is sometimes the most financially wise move in many markets. So why should homeschool curriculum be any different? I really am not trying to sound rude about this. I just don't understand how the laws of economics are any different for homeschool curriculum and why specialized rules against reselling can be expected. The used market is part of economic stimulation as well. I just don't get it. Sorry.

 

That was exactly what I was thinking!

I bought WP last year and didn't like the program at all, like another poster, there were several mistakes in it and it was a boring program. I sold it and I don't feel one smidge guilty about it. I purchased it like I purchase anything and can do what I want with it after. If I decide to sell my washer and dryer does that mean I'm putting Maytag out of business??

:confused:

[Mrs Mungo]

I hope I didn't imply this? I certainly didn't mean to. I personally wish they would get rid of the request. I find it embarrassing. I think a person can do whatever they want. A request is nothing but a request.

 

No worries :) I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular, just a feeling that was put off from the thread.

[Murphy101]

Clarification about Seton. They do not sell their lesson plans, they are leased for those who enroll ONLY. Once your enrollment time is over, you are supposed to mail the lesson plans back to them. also, you ahve the option of only printing a week of lessons off at a time off their enrolled families' website.

 

 

OK, this is going to sound TERRIBLE and I know it...but when I purchase a curriculum, I consider it mine. I paid A LOT of money for it, all of it. I did not just pay for the use of it, I paid to downright OWN it thankyouverymuch! So, apart from copying it for some kind of money making scheme, I feel I can do what I want with it. If I want to sell it when I am done with it, I sell it.

 

And you most certainly CAN do all of that. They can request anything they want, but it doesn't legally oblige you to give what they request.

 

Now having said that, one thought I had about their particular policy is that their "exclusives" are basically a packet of paper stuffs (notebooking pages, timeline figures, etc.) that could very easily be copied and REPEATEDLY sold, and sold, and sold...yes, even their TM.

 

THAT would be totally illegal. So do not do it. Ever. Not to mention it'd just be a royal pain in the bum.:)

 

But again the way for them to stop the reselling of any of their exclusive items is to put it on a CD rom disk as a PDF file and licence it. Of course that would mean the buyer would have to print a lot but they would know that up front.

 

#1. CDs can be burned/copied too. If anything this would make it easier for less than honest people to take advantage. Honest people aren't going to copy for resale anyways. Dishonest people would hit the jackpot if given a CD.

 

#2 I HATE CD for print stuff. I HATE it. I do not ever buy it. I want to see what I'm getting. I want to flip pages. I want to pick it up and go to the park, not put it in a disk drive, look up the pages I need, print them off and find out that it isn't configured to my laptop or printer.

 

What an interesting thread..........I have a little different take on it. I e often buy used to give something a trail run to see if I am willing to shell out full price for it. Apologia for instance, I bought Astronomy used and have since purchased all of the others new. I would not have purchased new had I not had the chance to see what a great product it was.

 

Me too. I just absolutely cannot afford to buy something and have it not work for us. By goodness, if I buy it - we MUST use it! A wonderful person was kind enough to donate her Animals and Their Worlds TG and nearly all the books that go with it to me. If she hadn't done that, I would NEVER have risked a purchase. (Not that I can risk it - I don't have money to risk!:lol:) However, after being able to see it in person, I'm hoping we can purchase new TGs and exclusives from them next year. That wouldn't even be a consideration before this program had been given to me. In fact, when I first thought of WP, it was along the lines of it's too expense to risk and that was pretty much my last thought about them until this donated package arrived.

 

Following your logic, if I made my living sewing clothing and put a lot of love in the sewing and then sold you a dress for your dd, you would find it unethical to either sell or give away the dress once your dd out grew the dress. Following that logic everything sold at a garage sale is unethical because the original creator is not getting a kick back from the used goods? Everything given to Good Will is unethical because folks should only buy new from the original creator of any goods because that creator, who was already once paid for the goods, needs to feed his kids too.

 

Sorry it does not flush here and my dad made his living in part writing college textbooks. Does not flush with the laws on the books in this country either. Once it has been bought and paid for it is owned by the purchaser who has the right to dispose of it as they see fit. There is nothing unethical about selling something that was paid in full for. WP's gripe was it caused them more work not so much that they lost money :glare:

 

I agree 100%.

 

Also, I completely agree that it's worth it to try and get new current TGs or lesson plans or whatever they are called whenever one can. Errors are corrected, new infomation added, more teaching helps available and so forth. We find it well worth it and do it whenever we can.

 

Actually they get a lot of request for substitute websites for ones that no longer work, for older notebooking sets that go with the old IG, and for replacement pages when one or two pages are left out of an old IG (notebooking cards, timeline cards, the craft planning lists, ect...).

 

Again a request doesn't oblige WP to do it. And I don't think they should either. Maybe keep current support for things within a year or two, because sometimes people take a while to get through a program even if they bought it new. But anything older shouldn't be maintained. It drains their resources and discourages new purchases.

[cillakat]

Even though this is an old thread, I just can't resist:)

 

My dh is an attorney. He was rather amused by WP's no-resale statement. It's not legally binding in any way, shape or form. At all. In fact, they might as well have said "you must wear purple while using our curriculum". It's ridiculous.

 

You have paid for your copy and you can do what you'd like with *your* copy - including selling it. You cannot copy your copy to sell, but you can do whatever you'd like with the copy for which you paid.

 

I love AC1......and will probably sell it when I'm done with it.

 

:)

Katherine

[Lovedtodeath]

If it's a request, but not legally binding, here's what I look at as a reasonable thing for me to do.

 

I think not re-selling it after I've intellectually "used" it is fair.

I think not being able to sell it to someone who'd get use out of it if I won't be using it at all is ridiculous.

 

:iagree:

[apheartsong]

I have only read half the threads so far, but feel the need to defend publishers. Many homeschoolers (and of course others) have developed curriculum and other materials to support their own families. Perhaps if you cannot afford new curriculum, you could use the library or free internet resources (with are many) for a time while you save up for your favorite curriculum. Reselling curriculum that is not intended to be resold (or copyrighted by use for a single family or child) is unethical. It's like expecting your physicians or dentists to treat you for free. They would be unable to pay their rent, pay off their school debt, or support their families.

 

I know it is stressful to have to toss or keep years worth of materials, but it is more stressful for those who are losing their livelyhood as a result.

 

Allison in TX

[sagira]

Just my two cents:

 

I understand their position and the need to recoup some money as it's their livelihood. I do understand. However, it's not legally binding and the only right they have is freedom of speech, which is to ask. The rest is up to you.

 

I wouldn't if I were them. I'd gladly take the publicity that used curriculum generates. I loved it, here it is. The power of word of mouth is incredible. Plus it gives people the chance to test-drive it, as others have mentioned.

 

I wouldn't miss that opportunity. I'd rather create positive buzz in the form of people buying my curriculum used, than negative publicity. Then again, some buzz is better than no buzz at all. I can see all the people going to WP's website wanting to read the fine print and in the process getting interested in their products :D

[cillakat]

I so agree, Sagira. If more people felt that they would have the option to sell, more would buy it. It only benefits WP to get the curriculum out there to as many people as possible. The more buzz there is, the more *new* curriculum they will sell.

 

As it stands, I know more than a few who won't buy from them at all b/c of their shortsighted illogical position on relsale. It just leaves a bad feeling about them.

 

Katherine

[Blessedfamily]

I have only read half the threads so far, but feel the need to defend publishers. Many homeschoolers (and of course others) have developed curriculum and other materials to support their own families. Perhaps if you cannot afford new curriculum, you could use the library or free internet resources (with are many) for a time while you save up for your favorite curriculum. Reselling curriculum that is not intended to be resold (or copyrighted by use for a single family or child) is unethical. It's like expecting your physicians or dentists to treat you for free. They would be unable to pay their rent, pay off their school debt, or support their families.

 

I know it is stressful to have to toss or keep years worth of materials, but it is more stressful for those who are losing their livelyhood as a result.

 

Allison in TX

 

I'm not argumentative so please don't take this as such:001_smile:, but this would mean that some companies get special priviledges that no other author(s) and publishers in the country get. All authors use the money from books sold to support their families, pay their rent/mortgage, etc.

 

If I use the library as you suggest, that's not much better. The library buys a copy of a book. The book is paid for once and checked out thousands of times and the author doesn't get paid full price again every time the book is checked out(They may get a few pennies). You could say a few pennies is better than the orginal author not getting anything as with resale, but it also causes a lot of people not to buy the book because they can rent it for free. That's how the system works. If, as an author, I don't like it, I can't publish a book and say "No libraries can buy this book because I need my full sale royalties to pay bills". kwim?(absolutely no sarcasm meant, honestly)

 

You should see the waiting list for all of the Story Of The World books and cd's. I finally checked one out and the librarian said "homeschooler?". SWB isn't making the same money off of them. I liked it and will buy my own copy.

 

Now if you all really want to talk about authors losing money go to Borders. I see people in there reading whole books(I hear them say it) and actually doing homework out of books.

Edited October 17, 2008 by Blessedfamily
Clairification

[gardening momma]

Reselling curriculum that is not intended to be resold (or copyrighted by use for a single family or child) is unethical.

It can't be copyrighted for use by a single family or child. Copyright means no one can make a copy of it. And they can have any intentions they want, but it's not illegal to not follow through with someone else's intentions.

[melissel]

I have only read half the threads so far, but feel the need to defend publishers. Many homeschoolers (and of course others) have developed curriculum and other materials to support their own families. Perhaps if you cannot afford new curriculum, you could use the library or free internet resources (with are many) for a time while you save up for your favorite curriculum. Reselling curriculum that is not intended to be resold (or copyrighted by use for a single family or child) is unethical. It's like expecting your physicians or dentists to treat you for free. They would be unable to pay their rent, pay off their school debt, or support their families.

 

I know it is stressful to have to toss or keep years worth of materials, but it is more stressful for those who are losing their livelyhood as a result.

 

Allison in TX

 

In addition, many people here said they actually wanted to purchase from WP but held back because of the policy. That's not exactly helping their livelihood either.

[siloam]

In addition, many people here said they actually wanted to purchase from WP but held back because of the policy. That's not exactly helping their livelihood either.

 

Actually I was using two WP levels, AW and AS 1 when they changed the policy. My plan was to use several more levels (AS 2 and S&S at the least) then move to TOG when Sweet Pea was in Jr. High.

 

Knowing I couldn't sell my IG's was the extra push I needed to give TOG a try. TOG not only is fine with their material being sold used, but they offer a 50% discount to upgrade to new materials. Unlike SL this doesn't just apply to original purchasers, but to those of us who bought the product used.

 

While that wasn't the only factor in my moving to TOG it was part of the equation in when I move to TOG. I saw it in either investing $$ into guides I would use once and then throw away (because the websites go dead and the notebooking pages change), or investing in a product I could reuse, upgrade or sell as needed. The second was the smarter choice for me, so WP did loose my business.

 

Heather

 

Edited October 18, 2008 by siloam

[melissel]

Unlike SL this doesn't just apply to original purchasers, but to those of us who bought the product used.

 

WOW! That's a really big deal. I sooo wish I could adapt that program to a secular style. I have a huge amount of respect for that company and its products.

[Laurie4b]

Wow. That's a huge contrast to Tapestry of Grace. Not only do they allow resales, but they will give customers with used copies similar or the same (too lazy to look it up) upgrade packages when the new materials come out.

[siloam]

Wow. That's a huge contrast to Tapestry of Grace. Not only do they allow resales, but they will give customers with used copies similar or the same (too lazy to look it up) upgrade packages when the new materials come out.

 

It is the same upgrade package customers get. The one "catch" is the option to upgrade only lasts for 4 years after they publish new materials.

Heather

 

[Heather in VA]

I don't think Winter Promise realizes how damaging their policies are to their business. I bought some LA materials and it took them quite a while to get me the main book because they changed which book they were using. When I got it I immediately realized I didn't like the new book but they wouldn't let me return the package because they considered my 4 week return time to start from the time my original order shipped, even though it wasn't complete and was missing a main piece. They also charge you completely for a package even when it's shipped incomplete. I won't even buy anything from them again.

 

They need to give some thought to their policies before it does even more damage to their business. I know people have made these suggestions directly to the owners but have been rebuffed.

 

Heather

[Blessedfamily]

I don't think Winter Promise realizes how damaging their policies are to their business. I bought some LA materials and it took them quite a while to get me the main book because they changed which book they were using. When I got it I immediately realized I didn't like the new book but they wouldn't let me return the package because they considered my 4 week return time to start from the time my original order shipped, even though it wasn't complete and was missing a main piece. They also charge you completely for a package even when it's shipped incomplete. I won't even buy anything from them again.

 

They need to give some thought to their policies before it does even more damage to their business. I know people have made these suggestions directly to the owners but have been rebuffed.

 

Heather

 

Count me as part of the "damage to their business" because I would NEVER do business with a company with those practices.

True enough that although they have no legal rights about resales they can ask (and I don't think it's unethical for people to answer "no").

 

But the situation you just described is an absolute deal breaker for me. To claim to give a 4 week return policy (which obviously entices people who otherwise would not risk it to buy your product) and then not honor that on a book that the company shipped late is a very poor practice.

[sagira]

but after reading all these posts, I think I'm going to pass and piece my own curriculum then, or buy an IG used..

 

Wow. All this is also in stark contrast to Sonlight's 18-week trial period. That's too bad, because WP's curricula looks nice.

[Jennay]

I so agree, Sagira. If more people felt that they would have the option to sell, more would buy it. It only benefits WP to get the curriculum out there to as many people as possible. The more buzz there is, the more *new* curriculum they will sell.

 

As it stands, I know more than a few who won't buy from them at all b/c of their shortsighted illogical position on relsale. It just leaves a bad feeling about them.

 

Katherine

 

That's exactly why I haven't bought anything from WP even though I've been interested in some of what they have to offer.