WWYD - Church and *very* disrespectful tweens

[Elizabeth in MN]

Normally nothing really gets under my skin at church. I love kids who dance around in joy, babies babbling, even all the questions kids ask about what's going on. However, two kids have been sent my way and all I want to do is knock their heads together.

 

I am allergic to something in the church and I have to sit in the back in case I have a bad asthma attack and need to leave and do all my medicines. About two pews up from me sits a family - a teen age boy, two preteen boys who may be twins, and the Mom and Dad. Dad does what he can to wrangle the younger boys. He keeps one near him at all times. Boy 1 is with him and generally good. Dad uses positive reinforcement with him, compliments good behavior, generally ends anything negative quickly. The worse I've seen him do alone is sit on the arm rest. No big deal. Then there is Boy 2. Boy 2 was busy testing in church, throwing spitballs at his brother, making fun of his parents while their backs are turned, throwing used gum into the chapel, pinching his brother until blood is drawn, walking out of church about a dozen times, and more. If texting was a contact sport, this kid would win. He lays on his back while doing it, waves his hands in the air while doing it, drapes his legs of the pew while doing it and so on.

 

The mom just sits like a lump on a log while she watches Boy 2 do all this. If dad sees it he makes stern faces or calls the Boy 2 over and tells him to behave. Boy 2 does until dad is distracted.

 

I've tried moving, I've tried closing my eyes, I've tried ignoring, I've tried praying and I've even tried talking to Boy 2. The family doesn't really seem to do any of the prayers, doesn't pass the peace, and doesn't seem to talk to anyone in the congregation.

 

I know I need to take a :chillpill: and cope, however I get really upset. Church is not being restful with these kids acting the way they do. I can't focus on the service. If I could go to a different church I would, however my Mom is leading the service and we have to be there. Wow would tongues wag if we went somewhere else! Plus I actually like the congregation!

 

So what can I do? I don't want to yell at anyone and make church a scary place, I don't want to scare them off by being so judgmental. Really, I want to just hug the kid and tell him that I know it's all boring but it's only fifty minutes of his time to thank G-d for all we get in this life and the next.

[Starr]

That's hard, you don't want them to leave. I would sit in the front of the church near an aisle so I could get out if the asthma kicked up. And look for them after church so you can say hello to the children. I'm always too distracted when I sit in the back even if all is well.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Starr

[Rebecca VA]

I wonder if the mom is completely worn out and that's why the dad is doing all the work. Boy 2 sounds like a handful -- I'm sure he's just as bad at home.

 

I would pray for this family very frequently. Is there any way you could help them by bringing them a meal or doing some other kind deed? Your kind gesture might mean the world to them.

[MomatHWTK]

If two out of the three kids are moderately well behaved and one seems "out of control" I might assume he has some sort of disability and the parents are doing what they can. (Because that's what it would mean in our household.) If you were feeling very confident you might talk to the family and ask why their DS has such a hard time sitting through the service.

[LostSurprise]

When one avenue of worship seems to be removed from you, perhaps you're called to another.

 

I would pray for that boy and his family. I would spend the time when he's distracting in prayer.

[homeschoolally]

If two out of the three kids are moderately well behaved and one seems "out of control" I might assume he has some sort of disability and the parents are doing what they can. (Because that's what it would mean in our household.) If you were feeling very confident you might talk to the family and ask why their DS has such a hard time sitting through the service.

 

:iagree:

This was my thought as well.

If this is the case, would it be easier for you to sit through it?

I agree with the poster below though, I wouldn't approach the parents.

Edited May 13, 2012 by homeschoolally

[Starr]

If you ask and they are embarrassed they will leave and never come back. We've been in way too many years of ministry to think this is a good idea.

[bettyandbob]

You do not know this family's struggles. Please just pray for them. Do not become another unfriendly, judgemental eye. They don't need that. That is not why anyone attends church.

 

Really, if church were this much of a struggle why aren't they staying home. Perhaps they really need to be there. Any less than super careful intervention by someone who knows them well, will be seen as the judgement it is. So, unless you want a family who clearly has to work very hard to get to church to leave, then you need to stay out of it.

[kolamum]

:grouphug: There was a young teen boy doing a lot of this kinda naughty stuff in church once. His Mum was a single Mum & the boy didn't stop when she told him to. The preacher was in the middle of his sermon, called this boy by name & told him to leave the sanctuary & stand outside in the hall. The boy looked shocked, but he said that since the child had no respect for his mother & was distracting others he was asking him to leave & he'd speak with him after the service.

 

Now, having said that the boy was often at the preacher's home & wasn't, normally, a naughty boy. I think he was just testing the limits GREATLY that day. No idea what happened behind closed doors, but that child never made the mistake of using spitballs in church again.

 

Can you sit one row or two rows in front of these people on the very end? My mil had issues with incense being used in church and setting off her asthma. She spoke with the priest about it & he wasn't willing to put her health at risk so refrained from using them thereafter.

 

I had a horrible allergic reaction for weeks at church, turned out the preacher's wife had thrown a new filter in the main vent.. A scented one. I would get sooo sick it was unreal. We figured out the problem the week she & her dh were out of town and someone else preached, the filter wasn't replaced & the "smelly" of it was gone.

[ma23peas]

Let him know you are watching him...

 

No matter how small...find something you can encourage or praise him about. "Billy, I thought it was so nice for you to let your mom into the pew, not many take time to put others first these days! Way to go!"

 

This will start an 'in' for you...start taking an interest in him...you see him throw a spitball...make a comment, "Billy, I bet you would be great at throwing baseballs, do you play on a team?". Little boys really respond to knowing someone cares and they 'see' the good in them.

 

If you see improvements, bring a small token...a small toy or ball he can practice his throwing skills...make his family some cookies...the great thing about church is finding those who will love my children and take an interest in them not for their peace of mind but because they genuinely want my children to know God...what better way than through love.

[Mommy22alyns]

If two out of the three kids are moderately well behaved and one seems "out of control" I might assume he has some sort of disability and the parents are doing what they can. (Because that's what it would mean in our household.) If you were feeling very confident you might talk to the family and ask why their DS has such a hard time sitting through the service.

 

This is what I was thinking.

[Mommyof4ks]

If two out of the three kids are moderately well behaved and one seems "out of control" I might assume he has some sort of disability and the parents are doing what they can. (Because that's what it would mean in our household.) If you were feeling very confident you might talk to the family and ask why their DS has such a hard time sitting through the service.

 

:iagree: there might be more to the story, but I would not say anything. I firmly believe that we can only control ourselves and not others.

[lcelmer]

Personally, I would just sit in the very front & bring all my inhalers & epi pen, and do the asthma treatments during the service if I needed to.

[BlueTaelon]

Personally I would explain the problem to the minister and let them deal with it, perhaps the child would do better in a crying room. My kids can't behave therefore we don't attend, it's not fair to others to have to put up with my misbehaving kids.

[Little Nyssa]

I've been in this situation a lot, re: kids disrupting service, though usually it's been younger ones. What helps me is to build some kind of alliance with the parents. Then when I get to know them a bit, the noise, however rude, does not bother me quite so much, because I feel fonder of them. I can still pray.

 

What helped ME when I was the one whose kids were driving everyone crazy, was that another, older, mom shared with me how badly behaved her boy used to be in church. (He climbed into the bishop's chair and took off his shoes and threw them at the people!) That made me feel so much better about my own kids, who were not nearly that bad, that I was able to relax and think more constructively about how to reign things in, with consequences, etc, without thinking so much that I was on the spot.

 

Honestly I think that sometimes, trying to talk to the kids just makes the parents feel bad ("she thinks she needs to take care of my kids for me because I'm a failure") so I try not to do that.

 

I bet boy #2 does have some challenges, or that perhaps the parents think that if they pay any attention to his behavior, it would reinforce it. Maybe they are trying to ignore it.

 

However, if there are activities at the church that would be good for tweens, like sports or Bible club, whatever you had, I would go up & make sure parents know about it. Perhaps if kids are more connected to the community, church will not be so dull for them.

 

:grouphug:

[MomatHWTK]

I try to make sure visitors at our church know who to ask if they need help with their child and offer up activity packages or other resources. So, in my position (de facto children's church person because I'm there early and look like a mom;)), I am able to get to know families well enough to offer up specific helps. It takes time. I know the ladies at church went very slowly with me when we first joined, letting me share our struggles when I was ready and just listening to my concerns and encouraging me in the meantime. I'm very grateful for that group of ladies.

 

In the meantime, is your church a single column set up? Would it be less distracting if you sat to the far left or right? Could you sit on a far side but closer to the front so that if you had leave you could go up the side aisle? Honestly, I don't know that if you sat right up front and had to leave it would be that terrible- does it happen often? People are human with human frailties, your church can surely accept yours. :grouphug:

Edited May 14, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[Elizabeth in MN]

I've talked to the minister (my Mom) and she's not sure what to do because she is doing supply work. She did see the oldest bending the thumb backwards on a younger boy (not his brother) while passing the peace. She gave him The Look and he stopped.

 

There is a cry room, but I'm not sure how to suggest it to the parents since they don't talk to anyone in the church. I've tried to approach them and they will turn their backs to me. Really, having been a minister's child for all my thirty-nine years I've never seen anything like this. If I give them special attention then other congregants will be hurt. It's something of a Catch-22.

 

It's looking like I'll sit way up front with my inhaler and pray hard for them.

[Celia]

You mentioned that the family doesn't seem connected to anyone in the congregation. You need to do something about that.

[RanchGirl]

I agree with the others that this boy probably has some kind of disability and if you try to talk to them, it could easily offend them to the point of not returning.

 

If I give them special attention then other congregants will be hurt. It's something of a Catch-22.

 

Elizabeth, could you elaborate on this statement? I find it confusing.

[CarolfromIL]

I've talked to the minister (my Mom) and she's not sure what to do because she is doing supply work. She did see the oldest bending the thumb backwards on a younger boy (not his brother) while passing the peace. She gave him The Look and he stopped.

 

There is a cry room, but I'm not sure how to suggest it to the parents since they don't talk to anyone in the church. I've tried to approach them and they will turn their backs to me. Really, having been a minister's child for all my thirty-nine years I've never seen anything like this. If I give them special attention then other congregants will be hurt. It's something of a Catch-22.

 

It's looking like I'll sit way up front with my inhaler and pray hard for them.

 

 

 

You use words like "me" and "I" a lot in this thread....This is the lords house...not your house. All should be welcome. Learn to tolerate, as you said its only 50 minutes. And Do not be judgmental.... Do not judge how people "pass the peace of christ". Talk to your mother (the minister) and seek wisdom to understand rather than find fault.

[tntgoodwin]

Maybe mention something to an elder or deacon?

[JFSinIL]

I agree with the posters who suspect the one boy has a disability...after all, this family is choosing to sit in the back for a reason,too.

 

Anything you do to point out the boy's behavior to the parents may only burden them more. They KNOW he is acting up. They are trying to go to church like a normal family. Don't do anything to scare them off.

 

I'd sit elsewhere, perhaps an aisle set on the other side of the church, so you can still get out fast if need be.

 

It is only an hour or so once a week. For them it is 24/7.

 

Then again - the kid may just be a brat. ;-) I'd err on the side of assuming a disability and live and let live.

(Not that I'd let SillyAutismMan act up in church - I'd use my Maternal Death Ray on him! But every disabled person is different.)

Edited May 14, 2012 by JFSinIL

[Tap]

Is there a strong male in the leadership who can sit a few 'seats' over from the family in the same pew? Maybe having a set of male book ends on they boys will help wrangle him in. (the dad and another male). He would need to be close enough to let his presence be known, but not so close that his reason is obvious.

 

Another thought may be to see if there is an opportunity for the boy to put some of his energy to good use instead of causing a ruckus. Maybe you can find out if there is some physical work that needs to be done during this time in the service. Ds goes to both services and volunteers during the one he is not attending. He helps in the kitchen, works in Sunday school with the young kids, with moving chairs around in another area of the church etc.

 

Assuming they only attend one service, maybe the group service is not the best place for him. During this time instead of 'listening' to the service, maybe the elder can talk with him about other things that can hold the boys attention, but still lead him on his walk with Christ. It could even be a made up project or one that is usually done at another time, but saved for just him. :)

 

For some people, physically sitting still...is very uncomfortable and can actually hurt! It is just a component of how their body is made. It can be a part of ADD but other diagnosis as well. DD5 is this way, so I totally understand the parents wanting him to participate, but it can be very distracting to everyone else.

 

 

 

For me, if someone came up to me before the service and said "Hey, Can DD5 come help me with a service project during main service today. I need someone who has lots of energy to put chairs away in the gym. We will be back in about 15 minutes so they won't miss the pastors talk, they will just miss the music portion etc. "

 

I personally would be very grateful!

[MomatHWTK]

I don't think I could ever has restful worship in a place where people would gossip about me if I wasn't there because I chose to worship God elsewhere or became jealous if I made a special effort to offer God's love and ministry to someone in need. :confused:

[Elizabeth in MN]

 

 

 

Elizabeth, could you elaborate on this statement? I find it confusing.

 

There are special rule for the way ministers and their families interact with congregants. For example, we're really not allowed to be friends with church members - we can be friendly for sure but just not friends. So if I were to treat this family that I am having a problem with differently than I treat all the other families my Mom could loose her job. Anything I do for one I would have to do for all, and this is a fairly large church. Between the distance to the church (it's an hour and a half drive from our home), money (I have very limited income), and time (I am a single, homeschooling, disabled mother) I would not be able to treat all to home made dinners delivered t their door. I'd love to be able to, but I just can't.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I don't think I could ever has restful worship in a place where people would gossip about me if I wasn't there because I chose to worship God elsewhere or became jealous if I made a special effort to offer God's love and ministry to someone in need. :confused:

 

This sentence is very hard for me to understand. Could you rephrase it?

[bettyandbob]

Anything I do for one I would have to do for all, and this is a fairly large church..

 

 

This makes no sense. People have different needs at different stages of their lives. It's not useful for a church, a community or any group to operate under this premise.

 

However, I'm sure it's true at your current church. I've found my most difficult moments, the times I've felt most alone and judged have been at church.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

There are special rule for the way ministers and their families interact with congregants. For example, we're really not allowed to be friends with church members - we can be friendly for sure but just not friends. So if I were to treat this family that I am having a problem with differently than I treat all the other families my Mom could loose her job. Anything I do for one I would have to do for all, and this is a fairly large church. Between the distance to the church (it's an hour and a half drive from our home), money (I have very limited income), and time (I am a single, homeschooling, disabled mother) I would not be able to treat all to home made dinners delivered t their door. I'd love to be able to, but I just can't.

 

This is none of my business and I totally understand if you lack the time, energy, or interest to answer me, but I have to ask:

 

What is the biblical justification for this?

[mom2samlibby]

There are special rule for the way ministers and their families interact with congregants. For example, we're really not allowed to be friends with church members - we can be friendly for sure but just not friends. So if I were to treat this family that I am having a problem with differently than I treat all the other families my Mom could loose her job. Anything I do for one I would have to do for all, and this is a fairly large church. Between the distance to the church (it's an hour and a half drive from our home), money (I have very limited income), and time (I am a single, homeschooling, disabled mother) I would not be able to treat all to home made dinners delivered t their door. I'd love to be able to, but I just can't.

 

Your church sounds odd.

 

I would consider finding another church. I know you said your mom wants you there, but the lack of friendship that you can seek there and the drive would find me looking for another church.

[Little Nyssa]

I understand. You can't do anything which could look like favoritism. Chatting with the parents, during coffee hour, say, wouldn't be out of line, I would think.

[Starr]

I would try and relax about this. As a priest's wife I can't imagine parishioners being jealous because I took a few minutes to get to know a new family. Once you move and are better able to worship things should get easier for you. :grouphug:

[MomatHWTK]

I mean:

 

You said "Wow would tongues wag if we went somewhere else!" That's gossip. You are telling us that your fellow church members gossip.

 

You said: "If I give them special attention then other congregants will be hurt." That smacks of jealousy to me. You can't meet someone's needs because someone else might not have that need, doesn't need you to minister to them in that way, yet might get upset if you did what Jesus would do?

 

No, I wouldn't find that place of worship to be restful. It just seems to me that there are so many expectations that you can't do what needs being done. :(

Edited May 15, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[Kathryn]

I mean:

 

You said "Wow would tongues wag if we went somewhere else!" That's gossip. You are telling us that your fellow church members gossip.

 

You said: "If I give them special attention then other congregants will be hurt." That smacks of jealousy to me. You can't meet someone's needs because someone else might not have that need, doesn't need you to minister to them in that way, yet might get upset if you did what Jesus would do?

 

No, I wouldn't find that place of worship to be restful. It just seems to me that there are so many expectations that you can't do what needs being done. :(

 

:iagree: I find the rules very confusing. What kind of church is this?

 

I also agree that the boy likely has issues.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I mean:

 

You said "Wow would tongues wag if we went somewhere else!" That's gossip. You are telling us that your fellow church members gossip.

 

You said: "If I give them special attention then other congregants will be hurt." That smacks of jealousy to me. You can't meet someone's needs because someone else might not have that need, doesn't need you to minister to them in that way, yet might get upset if you did what Jesus would do?

 

No, I wouldn't find that place of worship to be restful. It just seems to me that there are so many expectations that you can't do what needs being done. :(

 

No, I didn't say tongues would wag. People would be hurt and wonder why I went someplace else. They would wonder if there was something wrong with themselves or the congregation or the church in general. Yes, people talk about the actions of the minister and their family because we're held to a higher expectation. Would you be more angry at a minister if he gossiped or would you be equally disappointed in his actions?

 

Jesus was G-d made flesh. I am a human, not a god. I can't possibly do everything, nor could I hope to do everything Jesus would do. If I could there wouldn't be a hungry belly tonight or ever.

 

You're right, I don't find it restful. It's a job and jobs normally have work involved. The one part I can find some solace in is the church service itself and that is being ruined by a child being left to act out.

 

Now I am getting a bit upset and feeling personally attacked.

[Kathryn]

I don't think you're being attacked. I think people don't understand what's going on here. How is it your job, an adult child of a church employee, to keep congregants happy and feeling treated fairly? Why would your mother's job be in jeopardy if her adult daughter made friends or even showed compassion to one particular family in the congregation? What is the point of attending a church where you're not allowed to fraternize with other congregants? What do you get out of it?

[mamatohaleybug]

How do your actions as a 39 year old adult have anything to do with your mom and her job?? I'm having a hard time understanding where you are coming from. Your explanation confuses me even more.

 

If anything, this family needs more love and kindness and patience. Does your mom have a plan on how she will reach out to them?

 

I'm also asthmatic/allergic and can relate to your concerns regarding that. If you really can't sit anywhere else, I think you are going to have to learn how to ignore this child's behavior. We have many disruptive disabled people in our congregation and everyone seems to just love and accept them. I guess it's that "loving thy neighbor as thyself" thing. I sincerely hope you can make peace with this.

[Little Nyssa]

Clergy families live in a fishbowl-- that is hard. I'm not sure some of the PPs realize the extent of this. Even in the most healthy communities it is a balancing act which takes lots of wisdom. :grouphug:

[LittleIzumi]

So, if you can't fellowship them because of your position, who in you church can you talk to who CAN reach out to them? If they are having obvious difficulties with one child and don't feel connected to the church, I think that needs to be addressed. If they feel more support or even have someone willing to sit near/with them to help out, that would be wonderful.

[MomatHWTK]

I think if you read your first post you will see that you did type, "tongues would wag" because that's where I copied the quote.

 

You asked "WWYD" and you've gotten those answers. I would not assume my need to worship in a restful way was more important than this child and his family who for some reason God had chosen to send to my church home. I would assume that God had some role for me to play since He had brought the family to my attention and I would worry more about discerning that role than what other people thought about me. But, as I mentioned I am also involved in our children's program and have a SN child so these steps would probably occur to me right away. I usually do greet new families and address and assess the children's needs right away. And, we have had some kids in the past that I have agonized over how to best serve. I have also failed miserably sometimes as I let my own feelings overcome what I should do to be a good witness.

 

 

Read your posts with fresh eyes, see what you did actually say about your church, this family, and your needs and ask yourself what God would have you do. Because really, it's not about what we would do in a similar situation but what you need to do in yours that matters. Maybe you aren't the one who is supposed to step up for this family, maybe it's someone else in the congregation. You mentioned that you are asked to do a lot already. Are you able/allowing yourself to do the things that truly are your spiritual gifts? I know when I am pulled in directions out a feeling of obligation that aren't my gift areas it is much less fulfilling. I understand that there are lots of needs to be filled, but your posts to me just seem to speak of a level of frustration that goes beyond this one situation. It is wonderful that you are willing to do so many jobs, but not if it comes at the expense of your own spiritual growth and peace. I just wonder if the child would seem less upsetting to you if you had more opportunities to be fulfilled at other times.

 

I guess what I am saying is that if I couldn't relax at my mother's church on Sunday mornings, I would definitely allow myself to find a place where I could worship as myself, doing what God called me to do. What I am seeing from the outside is that you need to change things, and maybe not just this one situation.

Edited May 15, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[....]

So, if you can't fellowship them because of your position, who in you church can you talk to who CAN reach out to them?

 

Every family in our church has a church elder assigned to them. Does your church have anything like this? Are there church elders who can get to know the family?

[CalicoKat]

I wonder if the mom is completely worn out and that's why the dad is doing all the work. Boy 2 sounds like a handful -- I'm sure he's just as bad at home.

 

I would pray for this family very frequently. Is there any way you could help them by bringing them a meal or doing some other kind deed? Your kind gesture might mean the world to them.

 

:iagree: That'd be me @ church.