Told that son is a sight reader even though....

[warriormom]

Ok, please explain this to me.

 

My son has been obsessed with letters since he was 2 years old. I taught him basic phonics. He watched the Frog when he was little. We finished TYCR 100 easy lessons. I taught him the Webster's syllabary ( and basic spelling). He finished Reading Eggs. This year he is learning kindergarten a beka phonics from his Classical Christian school. I spent TONS of time with phonics (besides Reading Eggs which does teach some sight words.)

 

I talk to my son's teacher and she insists that he is a sight word reader. She may be right....but oh how much that frustrates me. I worked very hard to make sure he was a phonics reader to make sure he would be able to word attack hard words in the future. He is probably reading at a 3rd grade level very accurately and somewhat smoothly.

 

Is it possible that with all of this instruction he is a sight reader? Any suggestions on how to Make sure he is sharp with word attack? I am glad that he is a good reader. I want to learn from the mistakes I made with ds for dd.

 

Btw, When I take him to church he reads words like : righteousness. I did not teach him this as a sight word. To me, I think he is using his phonics rules for word attack...or maybe he just understands some of the logic of reading English. Ah I am rambling....just thought the hive mind could explain this to me.

 

He does reverse letters sometimes (at 6) and he reverses some words sporadically like saying "was instead of saw". I just thought this was sort of normal at this age especially since this does not happen regularly.

Edited May 1, 2012 by cabreban
More details

[garddwr]

Honestly, if he is reading well I wouldn't worry.

[warriormom]

Does this have anything to do with the fact that he is a visual learner?

 

I just want to learn for dd who will be 4 in the fall.

[medawyn]

I had a reading specialist explain to me that children who learn to read before the age of four are often "sight readers", as this is the way the brain best retains information at that age. She also assured me that that is not to say that these students don't need or use phonics - it is just the next layer of skills.

 

Of course, aren't we all sight readers eventually? I was actually fortunate to attend a Spalding-based school despite the fact that phonics was not at all the rage during my elementary years. I was reading fluently when I entered the school (age 5), but phonics certainly enhanced my ability to read higher level texts. Now I can still phonetically "attack" words, but how frequently do I analyze words as an adult? Most of my reading vocabulary is "sight reading", which I suppose we call fluency. Maybe your son is just a fluent reader? :)

[boscopup]

I wonder what the teacher is basing this on? It sounds like he has had plenty of phonics, so I wouldn't worry one bit.

 

My oldest was a sight reader when he entered K. He truly hadn't learned some of the phonics stuff. His reading jumped above 4th grade level when we did AAS and he learned about syllabication and basic phonics. Now I don't know what level he reads at, but I haven't found anything appropriate for him to read that he can't read.

 

My middle son is a visual thinker, and he actually does very well with phonics, though he still gets some letters confused (m/n, b/d/p, etc.).

 

It sounds like you've done everything right. I'd continue to do it. Most people eventually "read by sight". That is a good goal. But they should also be able to phonetically break down a new word and figure it out. A child that has only been taught "sight reading" won't be able to do that. Can you give your son nonsense words and he can read them? If so, he's good with phonics and I wouldn't worry about it, no matter what the teacher is saying. It's probably more common for advanced reading K'ers to be reading by sight because they've usually taught themselves. The teacher will be concerned in such a case because the phonics are helpful for spelling and for 4th grade and up words. In your son's case, she probably doesn't realize how much phonics work you put into him, and she just assumes that he's one of those self-taught sight readers. That's my guess.

[alisoncooks]

Of course, aren't we all sight readers eventually? I was actually fortunate to attend a Spalding-based school despite the fact that phonics was not at all the rage during my elementary years. I was reading fluently when I entered the school (age 5), but phonics certainly enhanced my ability to read higher level texts. Now I can still phonetically "attack" words, but how frequently do I analyze words as an adult? Most of my reading vocabulary is "sight reading", which I suppose we call fluency. Maybe your son is just a fluent reader? :)

 

This is exactly what I was thinking (but worded much better). :)

[PeterPan]

Here's your problem. It's actually *possible* to read well and fluently but not be able to break apart words. My first thought when I read your comments from the teacher was that she's seeing a bit of a learning problem and isn't experienced enough to know *what* she's seeing or why it's manifesting that way. I taught my dd with SWR (like WRTR/Spalding, etc.) and indeed she could read all sorts of words at that age. However she couldn't sound out. She understood the components and could tell you what sounds letters said. She just couldn't actually sit down and break apart an unknown word.

 

So what you need to do to check him is get a copy of HTTS and use their *nonsense* words to check his actual decoding. It's the only way for you to determine what is happening. It's what they would do in a dyslexia test (CTOPP, etc.), where they would check decoding using things he can't guess. When you have a very bright dc, they're bringing their whole auditory memory and experience to bear, and it makes them INSANELY good, even accurate guessers at words. It's why they don't have to sound out.

 

I'm not saying to dream up problems you don't have. I'm just saying if you want to check, that's how, with non-sense words. Use longer and longer strings of letters.

 

BTW, the reason my dd couldn't decode? Well it turned out she had some visual processing and working memory issues. I think it's always good to get vision checked, especially when you're seeing things like reversals. Might be something, might be nothing. The optometrist you want is a *developmental* optometrist, not a regular one. Costs no more to get a regular exam through this developmental optometrist, but he'll screen extra things and make sure there's nothing going on. If he finds something in the screening, then there's a full developmental eval they can do. Cost us $250, took 2 1/2 hours. Among other things, they hook the kid to a computer with infrared goggles and track eye movements when they read. It's way beyond a regular optometrist. So if you want to get his eyes checked, that's where you go. The way you find them is through COVD. Get feedback and make sure you've got a good one obviously. *I* would get his eyes checked when you're hearing bizarre things from the teacher and still seeing reversals. Might be nothing, or you might catch something now. Better now than later.

[PeterPan]

Here's your problem. It's actually *possible* to read well and fluently but not be able to break apart words. My first thought when I read your comments from the teacher was that she's seeing a bit of a learning problem and isn't experienced enough to know *what* she's seeing or why it's manifesting that way. I taught my dd with SWR (like WRTR/Spalding, etc.) and indeed she could read all sorts of words at that age. However she couldn't sound out. She understood the components and could tell you what sounds letters said. She just couldn't actually sit down and break apart an unknown word.

 

So what you need to do to check him is get a copy of HTTS and use their *nonsense* words to check his actual decoding. It's the only way for you to determine what is happening. It's what they would do in a dyslexia test (CTOPP, etc.), where they would check decoding using things he can't guess. When you have a very bright dc, they're bringing their whole auditory memory and experience to bear, and it makes them INSANELY good, even accurate guessers at words. It's why they don't have to sound out unfamiliar words, because they can determine it very quickly from context.

 

I'm not saying to dream up problems you don't have. I'm just saying if you want to check, that's how, with non-sense words. Use longer and longer strings of letters.

 

BTW, the reason my dd couldn't decode? Well it turned out she had some visual processing and working memory issues. I think it's always good to get vision checked, especially when you're seeing things like reversals. Might be something, might be nothing. The optometrist you want is a *developmental* optometrist, not a regular one. Costs no more to get a regular exam through this developmental optometrist, but he'll screen extra things and make sure there's nothing going on. If he finds something in the screening, then there's a full developmental eval they can do. Cost us $250, took 2 1/2 hours. Among other things, they hook the kid to a computer with infrared goggles and track eye movements when they read. It's way beyond a regular optometrist. So if you want to get his eyes checked, that's where you go. The way you find them is through COVD. Get feedback and make sure you've got a good one obviously. *I* would get his eyes checked when you're hearing bizarre things from the teacher and still seeing reversals. Might be nothing, or you might catch something now. Better now than later.

Edited May 1, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

I agree on nonsense words.

 

If he can read a nonsense word, it has to be by sounding out. It is not a real word, so it has not been memorized.

 

Many children (I have read) can learn a word after seeing it 4 times. That could make it seem like they are memorizing words, when they are not.

 

I would like to know why the teacher says that. To me it sounds like the instruction has been good, and maybe she is not used to having kids who show up with that level of instruction.

 

If she said that your child was unable to read words that she would expect her to be able to sound out, based on letter sounds she knew, that would be a different story.

 

edit: for the word "righteousness," I know my son.... he could sound out "right" and "ness." He could say "righteousness" from context. He could very possibly read the word "righteousness" in context. I doubt he could get the "eous" if he saw the word with no context, at this point. So -- that is the reason to use single word lists or nonsense words (nonsense words being better I think). With all the instruction he has done -- I think there is a good chance your son would really be able to gt that word, but my son wouldn't, but reading that passage they might look the same.

 

I know for a fact that my son can read words, from the first letter only, when they are in context, especially the kind of context that is "name the fruit of the spirit that starts with an r." He is a smart kid but still early-ish in his sounding out skills.

 

/agreeing with Elizabeth

Edited May 1, 2012 by Lecka

[warriormom]

Well, his homework for today is for my son to read the a beka reader with expression. She said that he reads smoothly and accurately. I thought that, besides comprehension, that is one of the last steps towards fluency as a reader. Am I wrong? I know Captain America can word attack. I have watched him. He does guess some...but I stop him and remind him that this is not the guessing game...then I ask him to READ.

[Tanikit]

I also wondered what the teacher is basing this on - with a child who has been reading for a while and at a higher level then normal for his age, he could sound more fluent than is expected which would make her think he is sight reading. Does he make errors in class and if so what errors is he making? Apparently most adults sight read at least 70% of what they read - and if he has had enough practice then he could reach this level earlier.

 

If I were you, I would continue to get my child to read aloud to me everyday. That is the only way you can find out what he is doing when he reaches a difficult word - forget school reading since he is clearly beyond that level and chose a book at his challenge level where he may need help. Then try to determine how he approaches new words and help him with the phonics - if not, great.

[Walking-Iris]

I also wondered what the teacher is basing this on - with a child who has been reading for a while and at a higher level then normal for his age, he could sound more fluent than is expected which would make her think he is sight reading. Does he make errors in class and if so what errors is he making? Apparently most adults sight read at least 70% of what they read - and if he has had enough practice then he could reach this level earlier.

 

If I were you, I would continue to get my child to read aloud to me everyday. That is the only way you can find out what he is doing when he reaches a difficult word - forget school reading since he is clearly beyond that level and chose a book at his challenge level where he may need help. Then try to determine how he approaches new words and help him with the phonics - if not, great.

 

:iagree: If he's had a strong foundation on phonics and reads well, just keep doing what you're doing. And if he stumbles over an unfamiliar word just take the word, chunk it into it's patterns/sounds and then move on. One thing I do when my ds stumbles over a word while he's reading is to make a mental note of it and try to find ways to have him read that word in the next few days to see if he's retained the word from his initial sounding out of it.

 

Also wouldn't that be sight reading? Sound it out and then after a few exposures to it, we just know it instantly on sight?

 

Could your ds's teacher be expecting him to sound out words he already knows?

[PeterPan]

Well, his homework for today is for my son to read the a beka reader with expression. She said that he reads smoothly and accurately. I thought that, besides comprehension, that is one of the last steps towards fluency as a reader. Am I wrong? I know Captain America can word attack. I have watched him. He does guess some...but I stop him and remind him that this is not the guessing game...then I ask him to READ.

 

I'll say it again. When he's that bright and guessing, it could be you're seeing early indications of something (working memory, ADHD, vision, etc.). Why is he guessing at words? Until you do the non-sense words, you can't say clearly what he's decoding and what he's determining from context. I wouldn't blow off the teacher's comments. These people know normal and not simply because they've worked with so many kids. They might not know what the problem is, but they can tell there's a problem by smell sometimes.

[eloquacious]

I agree with the previous posters who have mentioned that fluency could be mistaken for sight reading. I can't honestly say that my brain decodes every word I read. Perhaps it does, really quickly? But far more likely is that, having practiced for so many years, it now reads by sight those words that it is familiar with.

 

My son is reading at about a 2nd grade reading level. He reads with fluency, and has frequently read words that I didn't explicitly teach him, or that I thought would be beyond him in terms of complexity. At that point I am not sure whether to be proud or worry. I'm going to go with praising him, perhaps occasionally pointing out WHY said word is pronounced this way or that. I figure if we encounter problems we'll tackle them, but I'm not going to waste my time worrying about the cause of his success.

[FO4UR]

My first thought is that he's not following in line with the Abeka scope and sequence...and whether that means he has a reading problem or not...well, I don't think you can tell by that measure. I would want to know exactly what the teacher is seeing that gives her the sense that he is a "sight reader." (If he is above grade level and bored out of his mind during reading, he might be resistant to doing "baby work" which the teacher terms "decoding." idk. Dig further.)

 

 

I agree with nonsense words.

 

 

Also, use a 3x5 card with a notch cut out of the corner, and uncover only one sound at a time. (So multi-letter phonograms like *ee* and *sh* are uncovered together.) He will not be able to guess and will HAVE to decode this way. I would only do this for short periods, and only as needed...if needed.

 

 

 

imho. It's possible that you are dealing with an LD (actually a 2E kid). It's also quite possible that he's just fine, and Abeka is not his cuppa.

[MomatHWTK]

I had the standard phonics instruction as a child, but am a natural whole word reader. My own experience is that I spell words using phonics, but with reading my memory allows me to sight read. Phonics is useful to attack new words, but it is also time consuming. I can read at a much faster pace if I recognize the shape of the word and keep going.

 

I've noticed with my own children, that despite the phonics lessons, this leads to guessing as they try to sight the word instead. So, I'm concluding that for a natural, speedy, sight reader you must "force" them to slow down and actually sound out the words. It's a matter of correcting them when they skip this step. (I'll let you know in a few years if it works.)

[forty-two]

I'll say it again. When he's that bright and guessing, it could be you're seeing early indications of something (working memory, ADHD, vision, etc.). Why is he guessing at words? Until you do the non-sense words, you can't say clearly what he's decoding and what he's determining from context. I wouldn't blow off the teacher's comments. These people know normal and not simply because they've worked with so many kids. They might not know what the problem is, but they can tell there's a problem by smell sometimes.

 

Interjecting here:

 

Dd5.5 will guess at some words, and when reminded will read them. She's been slow at blending, but finally has cracked it (she does it with nonsense syllables). But I have noticed that she mixes up b, d, and p - particularly b and p. And I do wonder that she gets those words by context/process of elimination - that she never does truly discriminate them by sight. Mostly her guessing seems to be when she's getting tired/bored with the hard work of reading.

 

Next step seems to be to work on them in isolation, I guess. Overall it doesn't feel like a big deal. But I guess I wouldn't necessarily know. What would you use to determine "give it time" vs "seek help" (we can afford $250 if we need to, but it's a big chunk - not something to drop on a whim, kwim)?

[Ellie]

She's full of baloney. :001_rolleyes:

[Tanikit]

Why does anyone guess at words?

 

There are a number of reasons for guessing and not all of them are related to a problem in reading. It should be remembered that these are early readers - they are also children and to be honest making an educated guess at a word is actually quite a sign of intelligence - they are able to use context to guess, a certain amount of phonics and preceding auditory vocabulary knowledge. Even when using phonics a certain amount of "guessing" MUST occur since many phonograms make multiple sounds (eg oo and ou) - you are guessing based on words you have already heard and if you haven't heard the word before you MUST guess and you MAY be wrong. "brOOm" vs "broom" - whose to say which is right?

 

So guessing may be a sign that a child wants to read faster than he is able to decode but is able if slowed down to decode, it may be a sign that the child does not know how to decode at all and is sight reading, it may be a sign that he/she has limited phonics and is using what they know but needs more instruction, it may be a sign that they are tired/bored/sick/feeling any negative emotion/needing to exercise and do not want to do the work involved in reading phonetically, it may be a sign that they prefer fluent sounding reading and find that decoding means it is harder to read with expression, it may be a sign of a lack of comprehension or a language/vocabulary issue.

 

There are far too many reasons for guessing to assume that it is a LD or even that reading training has been insufficient. Based on what the OP has written I suspect that the teacher is imagining a problem where there is none - I could be wrong, but we are going on probabilities here.

[freesia]

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it at all. We all become sight readers. We use phonics to sound out words. As a former first grade teacher I can say that the problem is that she either "tested" him informally on a bad day (he was in a hurry, wanted to get outside or back to his book, etc.) If you have done that much phonics with him and he's done well, he knows his phonics. If he doesn't for some reason (and it will eventually show up in spelling and more advanced reading) reinforce it. But, above all, don't worry.

[PeterPan]

Interjecting here:

 

Dd5.5 will guess at some words, and when reminded will read them. She's been slow at blending, but finally has cracked it (she does it with nonsense syllables). But I have noticed that she mixes up b, d, and p - particularly b and p. And I do wonder that she gets those words by context/process of elimination - that she never does truly discriminate them by sight. Mostly her guessing seems to be when she's getting tired/bored with the hard work of reading.

 

Next step seems to be to work on them in isolation, I guess. Overall it doesn't feel like a big deal. But I guess I wouldn't necessarily know. What would you use to determine "give it time" vs "seek help" (we can afford $250 if we need to, but it's a big chunk - not something to drop on a whim, kwim)?

 

There's a certain amount of reversal that is typical to the age, and then there's a line where it ought to be gelling up. I think when a mom comes on a public board and starts telling people she doesn't even know about symptoms and things she's seeing that are out of the ordinary in her kid that that's a PRETTY GOOD SIGN that at least a little check would be in order. Vision is the absolute easiest thing to get checked. A developmental optometrist can run a regular eye exam (not the $250 but a regular exam, runs $60 at our place). They'll *screen* for vision problems. They screened my 3.5 yo, so they can easily screen your 5.5 yo. It's just one of those good things to do, having their vision checked. Turns out my ds3 has my astigmatism and in fact will need glasses when he starts doing more close-up work. With the things the developmental optometrist screens for (convergence, focusing, etc. etc.) she found that one was weak and another was strong, meaning at that point he was ok. Gave us a baseline to work from so we can keep tabs on it. It never hurts to check their eyes is what I'm saying.

 

Sometimes the reversals at that age are a visual memory thing. Have you tried having her work with playdough or sculpey? That can help make the connections between what they see and what's really there. My dd though was really crunchy on letter formation for a number of years (like till age 10, mercy), and it was a visual memory thing, something that developmental optometrist can check.

 

So no, I wouldn't hesitate to get her eyes checked. It's just good to do, like going to the dentist, kwim? She could be within the realm of normal, or you could be seeing the first hints of something. What you DON'T need to do is be an idiot like I was and post on the boards for years and years about how your dc is so different from the other kids (doesn't like to color, won't do this, hates that) and find out a few years later when it snowballs that there were identifiable problems going on all along. Sometimes our freedom in homeschooling makes us gloss over the reality that missing norms actually means something. But no, I wouldn't get freaky. Get her eyes checked, do some things to work on reversals (kinesthetic, there have been threads on it) and watch what happens. You could even read a little bit if you wanted, say "The Mislabeled Child" just to see if anything jumps out at you. Sometimes at this point you're seeing little dots you haven't connected yet.

 

BTW, reading should not be hard. She's either not developmentally ready or there's something going on, because reading should not be HARD. And lest I sound original, go check WTM. It's in there. :) I repeat, reading should not be HARD. You said it is for her. You said she loses focus and gets bored and starts guessing. That to me is something I would hone in on, little red flags. When my dd was that age, I had so many little dots I didn't put together, things like how she needed to run around after every 5-10 minutes of work. I would actually tell her to go do laps, hehe. The signs were there. It's just that in girls it's not so dramatic, not till they hit puberty. Now she's out weeding for 2 hours a day and burning it off, my lands. But no at that age that's the type of stuff I was seeing, just this vague "not right" "should be working and isn't" kind of thing, some reversals, things not sticking, etc. You've got to trust your gut on this. If you think it's out of the norm, it is.

Edited May 1, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

If your child is only 6, I would definitely continue with phonics even if he is a good reader. IMO phonics should be continued up to 4th grade or so especially since phonics can double as spelling.

 

I am doing this ds despite the fact that he is a phenomenal reader. We are using Megawords, Rod and Staff Phonics, and Webster's Speller 1908 edition:D

 

 

Since you have done Webster's syllabary, have you used ElizabethB's phonics and spelling lessons? Have you taught the rules of syllabication which can be found on ElizabethB's page? Are you going through Webster's Speller which takes years and is well worth it. I second doing a test with nonsense works as well which will give you useful info.

[Kalmia]

It sounds like the teacher is ascribing a sight reading "diagnosis" because he is younger than most fluent readers she encounters. I would completely ignore her label and continue on with what you've been doing.

 

By the way, In Denise Eide's Uncovering the Logic of English p. 65 mentions that the latest brain research reveals that there are no fluent "sight readers" the brain of a good reader is decoding every word almost instantly. That the brain is simply not able to memorize thousands of "sight words." (reference: Myers, 10 Years of Brain Imaging Shows the Brain Reads Sound by Sound). So if he is reading easily and well, he is a fluent reader and the teacher has just been to influenced by whole language to understand that.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Kalmia

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I dunno, that sounds rather bizarre. Many schools still use the sight word method and now this school makes it sounds like a dirty word.

 

After reading ElizabethB's page and numerous articles, I came to the conclusion that sight reading is bad since it expects a child to memorize the shape of a word to know it from what I understand. Apparently, English is phonetc and 95% of our words can be sounded out phonetically according to her. By using sight words there is a danger that a child might be unable to learn how to read phonetically and have only a very limited list of words that a child can read:(

 

My 2 cents:)

[ssavings]

I think I'd sit down and talk to the teacher more in depth. I know this is the opposite of most responses you've gotten, but IMHO... this is a teacher who is working with your DC 5 days a week, and who has worked with numerous other children. If she suspects something is off, or that he needs an evaluation, it might be worth at least considering her perspective. And if she is just noticing that he's guessing a lot, but suspects no other issues requiring an evaluation, maybe together you can come up with a systematic plan to deal with the guessing, so that his instruction is consistent.

I guess my point is, since your DC is in a school with this teacher, and since she seems to care about your DC, it's probably worthwhile to work with her, talk to her, and be on the same page.

[Soror]

I would try the nonsense words. Just because he knows some phonics doesn't mean he isn't using sight reading methods to figure out words beyond his level of phonetic understanding. I agree w/ pp that is a reason to continue phonics or use a good spelling program to make sure they can decode words that are harder instead of guessing or such from context. He could very well have internalized the phonics and be able to apply that to the harder words but I would say you don't know for sure.

[staceyobu]

This is my personal take on reading... Of course, I have no qualifications, so there is no reason for you to listen to me! :tongue_smilie:

 

Some children rapidly internalize phonics rules and apply them. They may not be able to state the rule, but they can apply them while reading. I think this happens often with language. Do you know every grammar rule? I don't! But, I can speak with correct English without being able to recite them. I can spell really well without having memorized all the spelling rules. In fact, I think over emphasis on rules just bogs down the process. The point is to be able to READ... not to know every rule under the sun.

 

Some children do not internalize these rules. Maybe they have some sort of issue with language or reading that prevents that from happening. These kids need to learn more rules so they have more tricks to use to figure out words. Some people are poor spellers and need to memorize more rules to help them spell.

 

If a kid needs it, thank goodness for all the wonderful curriculum we have to help. If a kid doesn't need it... woohoo! Move on to other things.

[Laura Corin]

Calvin is a sight reader despite early phonics. It has not got in his way at all: it's just how he works. His reading level is way ahead of his peers and he is at the top of his English class. I wouldn't worry. He sometimes mispronounces long words that he has not heard spoken, but he has no problem knowing what they mean and spelling them.

 

Laura