Can anyone help me with a "general public" comment I keep hearing?

[Bang!Zoom!]

The other day when I was at the library, I was in the friend of the library bookstore. There was a guy working there who was very pleasant, very perky..like a really happy puppy delirious in manner. Just absolutely loves books, loves people.

 

He asked me if I needed any help, I had a big list of titles to watch for with me..and I showed it to him. He read it over and was scanning the shelves for possible matches.

 

Then he paused and said, "You want Latin?"

 

I said "Yeah, this is a collection I'm hoping to build up."

 

"Latin is a dead language, you aren't going to find much out there on Latin."

 

....Now of course I know this isn't the case and all, but this is perhaps the third comment I've heard with that exact statement.

 

Where does that phrase come from and what does "the general public at large" get this idea?

[Mrs Mungo]

Classical Latin is no longer spoken by a cultural group as its daily language. In that sense it *is* a dead language. But, it is also the language that birthed the Romance languages, and is therefore worthy of study.

[mommy5]

I would like to know,too, because I've heard this as well.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Okay, so there are no common mass "groups/cultures" that speak it in daily life. That's what they mean.

 

I don't know why I was getting the feeling when people said that, it meant that they were privy and snubbing it. It's happened more than once though, and each time I had that impression of put-down and superiority.

 

Maybe I'm just a grump too often lately.

 

Thanks!

[Lara in Colo]

I tell people it is the foundation of many modern day languages and by learning it, you can have an easier transition to other languages.

[momma2three]

Do you mean what does a "dead language" mean?

 

Language changes over time, as people use it. New words come into the language, people stop using other words, and words change meaning. That's a living language.

 

Classical Latin is a dead language, because it's no longer living. People no longer use it conversationally, and so it has stopped living. That doesn't mean that it's not worth knowing, or that it can't be useful to know.

 

I think some people do use "dead language" as meaning "useless language," but that's not really what it means at all.

[Alte Veste Academy]

ETA: Clearly I misunderstood the point of the question so I will just agree with this...

 

Classical Latin is no longer spoken by a cultural group as its daily language. In that sense it *is* a dead language. But, it is also the language that birthed the Romance languages, and is therefore worthy of study.

 

:D

Edited March 23, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[PeacefulChaos]

I do think that some people consider latin to be useless. Obviously, that isn't the case, but I will admit that (back when I was anti-hs, young, and knew a lovely lady who used the WTM when hsing her daughter) when I heard she was teaching her daughter latin, I thought it was weird.

Now, it makes perfect sense. But it wasn't something that had ever occurred to me at that point. I think that could be the case with a lot of the 'general public' :)

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I am reminded of a post someone made on here a while ago. Her father (I think) was in Italy. He needed directions but all he could find to help him was a monk. They didn't speak each other's language, but they were able to converse in Latin. Dead language my butt.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I've never heard that saying until lately as it's become a quest of mine to gather materials up.

 

Personally, I was thinking along the lines of National Geographic when I first heard that said, as in...oh..the Klickazoony Tribe of Southern Peru, that language died when their culture was wiped out...sort of way. So I was very perplexed, thinking, "Um, Latin is still published, studied and desired very much.."

 

I guess it's just that one couldn't pull up to a McDonald's and order a Happy Meal in Latin anywhere on the entire planet? :lol:

 

It's not like it's in the FREE box at a rummage sale now. C'mon people.

 

My impressions of the statement were totally off, I had no idea where it was coming from.

[LaxMom]

 

Where does that phrase come from and what does "the general public at large" get this idea?

 

(as an aside to the "dead language" comment because, yes, Latin is now static and, thus no longer a "living" language) The general public at large that I run into haven't mastered even 1% of English (the only language they use). They have no use for Latin (or any other language, dead or modern).

 

Interestingly, I keep seeing Wheelock at Barnes and Noble, prominently displayed, so maybe the tide is turning.

[Remudamom]

Umm.....sorry. My ds and his fb friends converse in Latin. So there.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Umm.....sorry. My ds and his fb friends converse in Latin. So there.

 

Oh how cool is that? :grouphug:

[Mrs Mungo]

I think what the bookstore employee probably meant was something more like:

 

Latin is a dead language. Therefore, relatively few books are published in Latin.

[redsquirrel]

A language is dead not because people don't converse in it. A language is dead when no one grows up learning it as their primary language as a part of their culture.

 

If there was a state that had latin as it's primary language meaning it was spoken to their children from birth, taught in their schools as the primary language of instruction, was the language of their government, was on the street signs, was the language of their own original works of literature then Latin would not be dead.

 

However, Latin is a dead language. No one grows up speaking Latin from birth as their primary language and has that reflected back to them as a part of their culture.

 

Languages have been rescued from near-death or are at least on life-suppport in some places. Welsh comes to mind. I believe that schools in Wales are now taught primarily in welsh... anyone know for sure? That is part of the language issues in Quebec etc.

[Bang!Zoom!]

So I think what I will do in the future is be more specific and say, "Books that are written on the study of Latin."

 

It's my error in saying, "Books in/on Latin."

 

That's too vague, I need to narrow it down and be more precise.

 

If I happen to hit on an old reader or something, bonus.

[SunD]

Yeah, I was yelled at in Latin several times during high school. Do nerds and homeschooled children count? There are probably many more Latin speakers than there are speakers of some languages that are technically still "living". I'm thinking of that one that only has two speakers left, and they won't talk to one another ... I wish I could remember what it is.

 

Would it be more convincing if we got a group of, say, 500 people together for a Latin convention and required all attendees to actually speak Latin while there? Bam. Conversational Latin. I know kids still wouldn't be growing up immersed in it (for the most part, maybe there are some super-Latin-speaking homeschoolers out there), but when most people call it a dead language, they seem to mean that you'll never need to have a conversation in it. Some even think you can't, as if it's impossible to read Latin aloud.

Edited March 23, 2012 by SunD

[Bang!Zoom!]

Yeah, I was yelled at in Latin several times during high school. Do nerds and homeschooled children count? There are probably many more Latin speakers than there are speakers of some languages that are technically still "living". I'm thinking of that one that only has two speakers left, and they won't talk to one another ... I wish I could remember what it is.

 

Would it be more convincing if we got a group of, say, 500 people together for a Latin convention and required all attendees to actually speak Latin while there? Bam. Conversational Latin.

 

I hear there's some shin digs in Rome once in a while like this. :)

[WTMCassandra]

Eh. Shrug him off. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

You've gotten some terrific answers.

[Cricket]

I am reminded of a post someone made on here a while ago. Her father (I think) was in Italy. He needed directions but all he could find to help him was a monk. They didn't speak each other's language, but they were able to converse in Latin. Dead language my butt.

 

Love it!

[La Condessa]

I am reminded of a post someone made on here a while ago. Her father (I think) was in Italy. He needed directions but all he could find to help him was a monk. They didn't speak each other's language, but they were able to converse in Latin. Dead language my butt.

 

Er, this doesn't actually have anything to do with whether the language is dead or not. "Dead" in reference to languages is not a pejorative term, but a descriptive one. As someone else stated, it means that there are no longer native speakers learning it naturally as a first language--Latin is dead, regardless of how useful it may be or how widely it is spoken as a second language.

[readinmom]

The general public at large that I run into haven't mastered even 1% of English (the only language they use). They have no use for Latin (or any other language, dead or modern).

 

:iagree:

[redsquirrel]

There are probably many more Latin speakers than there are speakers of some languages that are technically still "living". I'm thinking of that one that only has two speakers left, and they won't talk to one another ... I wish I could remember what it is.

 

That is a good example of a dead language. Two speakers left? No children growing up speaking it as their primary language in the home? Dead language.

[Pink Fairy]

It's dead in the sense that Latin grammar and vocabulary no longer change. That's why it remains the official language of governance in the Catholic Church.

 

Latin's a dead language,

as dead as it can be.

It killed the ancient Romans

and now it's killing me!

 

:D

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Er, this doesn't actually have anything to do with whether the language is dead or not. "Dead" in reference to languages is not a pejorative term, but a descriptive one. As someone else stated, it means that there are no longer native speakers learning it naturally as a first language--Latin is dead, regardless of how useful it may be or how widely it is spoken as a second language.

 

Umm, that last sentence was intended as tongue in cheek. :tongue_smilie:

[Crimson Wife]

Depending on the age of the gentleman in question, it's possible that he has a personal chip on his shoulder against Latin because he was raised Catholic in the pre-Vatican II era. My dad has a chip on his shoulder against Latin because he associates it with everything he dislikes about traditional/orthodox Catholicism.

[La Condessa]

Umm, that last sentence was intended as tongue in cheek. :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry I misunderstood.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Sorry I misunderstood.

 

That's okay. :001_smile: I should have added the :tongue_smilie: after it.

[Kareni]

I am reminded of a post someone made on here a while ago. Her father (I think) was in Italy. He needed directions but all he could find to help him was a monk. They didn't speak each other's language, but they were able to converse in Latin. Dead language my butt.

 

Yes, Punchie wrote about it in this thread -- Latin is still relevant!.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[ashfern]

 

I guess it's just that one couldn't pull up to a McDonald's and order a Happy Meal in Latin anywhere on the entire planet? :lol:

 

 

The ATM's in Vatican City have Latin instructions. :D

[Amber in AUS]

My cousins wife is Italian. Her parents live in Rome, her mother is a high school teacher. She teaches Ancient Greek and Latin :D It's very much alive in Europe. It might not be spoken on the street, but in classrooms they are learning it and conversing.

[momma2three]

My cousins wife is Italian. Her parents live in Rome, her mother is a high school teacher. She teaches Ancient Greek and Latin :D It's very much alive in Europe. It might not be spoken on the street, but in classrooms they are learning it and conversing.

 

They teach Latin and Ancient Greek in US schools too (and, I assume, in Australian ones too). Not all schools, I know, but my high school had both. There was also a Sanskrit independent study some students could opt to take.

 

A language being taught in school is irrelevant to its status as dead or alive. As others have said, a living language is one that people use as a first language, and one that is growing and changing as people use it. It's not a value judgement: it's not like being gifted a dead plant versus a living one. It's just a descriptive status.

[Mabelen]

They teach Latin and Ancient Greek in US schools too (and, I assume, in Australian ones too). Not all schools, I know, but my high school had both. There was also a Sanskrit independent study some students could opt to take.

 

A language being taught in school is irrelevant to its status as dead or alive. As others have said, a living language is one that people use as a first language, and one that is growing and changing as people use it. It's not a value judgement: it's not like being gifted a dead plant versus a living one. It's just a descriptive status.

 

:iagree: In complete agreement. It is not a value judgement, just a descriptive status. I heard it plenty of times from my own High School Latin teachers and even from my College professors back in Spain. I don't see why anyone should feel offended by it!

[rhrice3]

I got the same response from my husband's present employer when we interviewed here - he and his wife both asked me, almost in unison, "Do you speak Latin? Really, and your teaching him Latin?" I explained that the Latin I knew I had learned alongside my son from 5th grade up. He was at a point where he could teach it to himself and would eventually start another language. I explained that Latin was the foundation for all the Romance languages, it teaches roots, etc. I explained that just by knowing the little Latin I did know, I was able to read and to understand signs, menus, etc while traveling in Spain recently.

 

I think that the "general public" does not understand most home schooling let alone classical homeschooling. They do not see the importance of teaching our children ancient history especially along with the Bible or teaching them a "dead language". All they see is the way their children, or the children they know, are taught to test in schools.

 

I can't tell you the number of people here in the states or abroad, who have commented on my children's abilities to converse with them on adult levels. I think most of it has to do with the fact that they were taught classically. They can converse about current events, because they understand the history of that particular nation, etc. Wow, I'm rambling

 

Anyway, Have a great weekend.

ReneeR

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Yes, Punchie wrote about it in this thread -- Latin is still relevant!.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

Yup, that was the one. I thought that was really cool. :001_smile:

[Ester Maria]

A language is dead not because people don't converse in it. A language is dead when no one grows up learning it as their primary language as a part of their culture.

 

If there was a state that had latin as it's primary language meaning it was spoken to their children from birth, taught in their schools as the primary language of instruction, was the language of their government, was on the street signs, was the language of their own original works of literature then Latin would not be dead.

 

However, Latin is a dead language. No one grows up speaking Latin from birth as their primary language and has that reflected back to them as a part of their culture.

I sort of agree, but disagree with you. :tongue_smilie:

 

I agree with the part that it is legitimate to claim Latin being "dead", but I would draw some distinctions elsewhere.

 

I do not think the formal infrastructure of a statehood or a context of a formal education all the way through in that language is needed for the definition of a dead or a living language. However, I do think the language needs to be versatile enough for all the major societal functions to be carried out in it relevant to that community, and that that has to be actively done.

 

Languages like Latin or Hebrew have historically had a rather awkward position, in which they were not fully functional languages of a society, but they were fully functional within their own restricted circle of scholarship and were even used as spoken languages in that context. That made them more like zombies than truly "dead" - like walking anachronisms used for some functions, but not for others, without a culture within which they could function as stand-alone idioms.

 

Basically, we agree, I would just word it a tad bit differently.

[Danestress]

I have heard this said dozens of times. I understand that technically it may be true (in that Latin is not a living language) and I also understand that what the person is really saying is often, "why waste your time on that?"

 

I think this is partly the fault of Latin teachers, to be honest. They present the study of Latin as a valuable things because "it helps SAT scores." Obviously there are other reasons, but this is the one parents often hear most from schools.

 

My sister is an educator, and that's the reason at her school while most parents opt into Latin study for their middle school students. She is open minded and we have talked more deeply about this, but in her mind at first, it seemed like parents were choosing SAT scores over the ability to speak in the primary language of 37 million Americans. We need more Spanish speaking nurses, more Spanish speaking cops, more Spanish speaking teachers, so why choose Latin? I chose Latin, so obviously I have a few good answers to this question:) But I understand that people are curious about that and have opinions about it, even if they are .... uninformed opinions.

[marilla]

Some characters on Lost spoke Latin.