......Tribe: Bald eagle permit a victory for tradition

[brandigirl]

Anybody as upset about this as I am

 

http://news.yahoo.com/tribe-bald-eagle-permit-victory-tradition-142059335.html

 

:crying:

[ktgrok]

eh, I see no difference in killing an eagle for a festival and killing a turkey for a festival. Two eagles will not impact the population to any real extent. I have no issues with this.

[Chris in VA]

Well, while I wish no birds would die, and I don't know why they have to use the wild eagles (instead of carcasses or farm-raised or whatever), I do trust that it's important to their culture and religion. If I want religious freedom for myself, I guess I'd better be willing to grant it to someone else.

[EmilyK]

It bothers me too, and I think it is worse when it is an endangered species. Whale hunting bothers me too.

[Bluegoat]

Are their farm raised bald eagles?

 

I don't have a particularly romantic view of them myself - they are garbage eaters as much as anything. I don't see it as different from other hunting as long as it isn't a conservation issue.

[beaners]

It bothers me too, and I think it is worse when it is an endangered species. Whale hunting bothers me too.

 

They aren't endangered anymore. :001_smile:

[Mothersweets]

Well, while I wish no birds would die, and I don't know why they have to use the wild eagles (instead of carcasses or farm-raised or whatever), I do trust that it's important to their culture and religion. If I want religious freedom for myself, I guess I'd better be willing to grant it to someone else.

 

:iagree:I don't have a problem with it.

[renmew]

It might bother me more if they were still endangered, but if their numbers are strong enough to support the loss, then the tribe should be able to carry on. It's not like Native Americans are known for destroying wildlife all willy nilly.

 

I googled images and they are so beautiful! Having been born and raised in Los Angeles, I have never seen one in person.

[Denise in Florida]

Well, while I wish no birds would die, and I don't know why they have to use the wild eagles (instead of carcasses or farm-raised or whatever), I do trust that it's important to their culture and religion. If I want religious freedom for myself, I guess I'd better be willing to grant it to someone else.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

This a more respectful use (and possible death) than many animals face.

 

I think it is an important acknowledgement of tribal rights that they are able to request and receive a license.

[redsquirrel]

It being an eagle doesn't bother me more or less than any other bird. I am generally not in favor of animals being killed no matter what kind they are. I am certainly not in favor of animals bearing the brunt of human religious or national or superstitious beliefs.

[*Lulu*]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

This a more respectful use (and possible death) than many animals face.

 

I think it is an important acknowledgement of tribal rights that they are able to request and receive a license.

 

:iagree:

[MSNative]

Well, while I wish no birds would die, and I don't know why they have to use the wild eagles (instead of carcasses or farm-raised or whatever), I do trust that it's important to their culture and religion. If I want religious freedom for myself, I guess I'd better be willing to grant it to someone else.

:iagree: Plus, they appear to have followed all the rules - applying for the permit, hunting off the reservation, etc.

[Abigail4476]

No, it doesn't bother me. Of all the ways and reasons for a bird to die, this seems like an honorable way to go. :)

 

They aren't an endangered species anymore; I might have a stronger opinion if the tribe were taking 2 of the last 5 existing bald eagles.

[Mergath]

Doesn't bother me. It's important to their religion and their culture. I studied Ojibwe in college (Boozhoo! Nindizhinikaaz Mergath. :D) and I remember that something about bald eagles actually did come up in class. I can't for the life of me remember the specifics, but I think our professor did say that yes, it does have to be bald eagle feathers. Can't tell you why, though. Wow, that was helpful, huh? :tongue_smilie:

[Bang!Zoom!]

Brandi, are you trying to say you support or are against the ceremonial hunt on tribal lands?

 

You didn't make a statement either way, I can read it two ways.

 

Care to clarify it a bit?

[tex-mex]

They aren't endangered anymore. :001_smile:

Correct.

 

The use of an Eagle feather is very significant in Native American's spiritual beliefs. If one was given an eagle feather (in regalia) by a native and the feds find out, it is against the law.

Most people buy trinkets and think the eagle feather is real -- but it is actually a turkey feather.

 

That being said, I do not see the problem with the permit to hunt.

Edited March 18, 2012 by tex-mex

[catz]

Eagles are no longer endangered. I see them live and in person on a regular basis and I live in an urban area. I have no problem with it. They followed the proper procedures.

 

If I want religious freedom for myself, I guess I'd better be willing to grant it to someone else.

 

:iagree:

[EmilyK]

I guess I knew they weren't endangered anymore, but I still think of them as a different category than an animal that is farmed or always plentiful.

 

Basically, I don't "get" hunting. The question was whether it bothered me, and yes, it does.

I don't know the background of this particular event, but I see a difference between law banning a practice that is occurring currently, and someone who wants to resurrect a tradition that their great-grandparents followed, but hasn't been since. One traditional hunt I'm aware of fell in that category, and to me it seems different to have to adapt your plans to resurrect old customs based on current laws or mores.

 

This is not a good thing to say on these boards, I know, but I don't "get" (on a gut level) many of the religious exemption things anymore. I have total tolerance for people doing things (for religious reasons, or otherwise) that don't affect me. And I'm a lawyer, so yes, I understand our complicated constitutional law on the issue. But despite my own religious feelings and beliefs, I just don't think that religion should be a reason for changing rules we've otherwise come up with (animal treatment, how we treat our employees, how we can appear in certain situations, etc). I'm really not trying to divert the discussion onto this, but wanted to respond to the thought that this is important for religious respect, and explain that not everyone feels that way.

[Ottakee]

I don't have a problem with it.

 

My dh is Native American and earned his Eagle feather when he got his college degree. The tribe held a huge banquet and had a cermony for him and a very few others (maybe 2 or so) that earned this distinction.

 

While I don't agree with the NA religious views in many cases, I can say that they were supressed, at least in our area. My MIL along with her siblings and cousins were some of the many, many Native American Children taken away from their parents for most of the year to be "civilized" at Catholic boarding schools. They were separated from their siblings, had their names changed, hair cut, and weren't allowed to speak their Native Language.......and this was in the US in the 1950s......so not that long ago at all.

[Bluegoat]

I guess I knew they weren't endangered anymore, but I still think of them as a different category than an animal that is farmed or always plentiful.

 

Basically, I don't "get" hunting. The question was whether it bothered me, and yes, it does.

I don't know the background of this particular event, but I see a difference between law banning a practice that is occurring currently, and someone who wants to resurrect a tradition that their great-grandparents followed, but hasn't been since. One traditional hunt I'm aware of fell in that category, and to me it seems different to have to adapt your plans to resurrect old customs based on current laws or mores.

 

This is not a good thing to say on these boards, I know, but I don't "get" (on a gut level) many of the religious exemption things anymore. I have total tolerance for people doing things (for religious reasons, or otherwise) that don't affect me. And I'm a lawyer, so yes, I understand our complicated constitutional law on the issue. But despite my own religious feelings and beliefs, I just don't think that religion should be a reason for changing rules we've otherwise come up with (animal treatment, how we treat our employees, how we can appear in certain situations, etc). I'm really not trying to divert the discussion onto this, but wanted to respond to the thought that this is important for religious respect, and explain that not everyone feels that way.

 

But as far as I understand, reasons for not allowing hunting were mainly about conservation? If that is no longer such an issue, then why would it be odd to now allow hunting permits to be issued?

 

If it was about it being the national bird or something, then I guess it is a matter of considering whether it was really appropriate in the first place to pass a law to prevent people hunting for a religious ceremony because of the somewhat arbitrary patriotic feelings of some newcomers.

[brandigirl]

sigh I had a feeling I would catch flame for this. I have always believed that if you are not going to eat it don't kill it. But my only issue with this besides the fact of the actual killing is the law behind it. Why are native americans allowed to do this? Now please explain this to me because I am not familiar with this culture. I realize that religion is a very touchy subject that comes with 500 million views. I guess I am just a little sad. I do not think there is anything honorable about death and yes there will always be a worse way to die.

[ktgrok]

sigh I had a feeling I would catch flame for this. I have always believed that if you are not going to eat it don't kill it. But my only issue with this besides the fact of the actual killing is the law behind it. Why are native americans allowed to do this? Now please explain this to me because I am not familiar with this culture. I realize that religion is a very touchy subject that comes with 500 million views. I guess I am just a little sad. I do not think there is anything honorable about death and yes there will always be a worse way to die.

 

I don't know if it is being allowed because it is religious. More that they are a separate, sovereign people in many ways, and that if we hadn't interfered they never would have stopped.

[brandigirl]

If I m not mistaken the US gives some sort of payment to the Native Americans. But the pay is crud I have driven through some reserves were people look so hopeless it almost hurts. There really is no way to fix this is there?

[pqr]

I have no real issue with it. I would hope that the animal is hunted using traditional Indian methods rather than simply shooting it, but beyond that I would say go ahead.

 

The religious issue is interesting; lets say a religion or even a tradition called for an animal to be tortured to death, horribly, would that be acceptable? Is a pass given to laws dictating humane treatment of animals? I do remember law suits over various voodoo practices and the sacrifice of animals which made for some rather interesting debate.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Well, while I wish no birds would die, and I don't know why they have to use the wild eagles (instead of carcasses or farm-raised or whatever), I do trust that it's important to their culture and religion. If I want religious freedom for myself, I guess I'd better be willing to grant it to someone else.

 

 

:iagree: Another vote for this.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I'm not the type of person to deny religious freedom.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Brandi, it sounds to me like you really are an animal advocate, compassionate and that this is confusing for you.

 

To get a sense of balance and put things in the right place, do you think you could set up a course of self-study to answer some of the questions you have?

 

While you travel, would your parents be interested in supporting a side trip to a historical site staffed with Native Americans to help you to understand the cultural issues?

 

Note to posters, Brandi is a minor home schooler with a fantastic blog in which she journals her education. Take a visit, it's very well done. :) You can find it on her signature link.

 

averagetravelingteen.blogspot.com

Edited March 18, 2012 by one*mom

[EmilyK]

But as far as I understand, reasons for not allowing hunting were mainly about conservation? If that is no longer such an issue, then why would it be odd to now allow hunting permits to be issued?

 

If it was about it being the national bird or something, then I guess it is a matter of considering whether it was really appropriate in the first place to pass a law to prevent people hunting for a religious ceremony because of the somewhat arbitrary patriotic feelings of some newcomers.

 

 

I don't care a bit about the national bird stuff. I am not at all sure that the endangered species listing is the last word on what is truly at risk. There are a lot of pressures to remove species. I worry about the reduction in wildlife since the Europeans settled North America. I think species diversity is at risk due to global warming. Personally, I rank having generous amounts of previously at risk wildlife above recreational hunting or religious preferences.

 

I also agree with the questions about where it ends. There have been cases about the religious and animal rights issues in santeria, for example.

[Mergath]

sigh I had a feeling I would catch flame for this. I have always believed that if you are not going to eat it don't kill it. But my only issue with this besides the fact of the actual killing is the law behind it. Why are native americans allowed to do this? Now please explain this to me because I am not familiar with this culture. I realize that religion is a very touchy subject that comes with 500 million views. I guess I am just a little sad. I do not think there is anything honorable about death and yes there will always be a worse way to die.

 

 

Here's some information I found from a quick web search:

 

http://www.great-spirit-mother.org/_/significance_of_the_eagle_feather_native_headdress.htm

 

Part of the reason I'm okay with this is that the United States government has done so much to harm the cultures of the various Native American tribes, and now as the direct result of that suppression, there are many, many tribes that have almost completely lost their cultural roots and practices. Their languages are dying out, and some are already gone. Anything we can do as a country to support the preservation of these cultures should be done, even if the government has to okay the death of a couple eagles. The Native Americans did a far better job of preserving the natural resources of North America than the Europeans did after they took the land, so for me to get upset over a couple of eagles seems wrong.

[tntgoodwin]

Well I don't like the idea of granting any certain groups special privileges, I also have no problem with people practicing their religion as they wish, providing they cause no injury to other people or other people's property.

[Elinor Everywhere]

Brandi, it sounds to me like you really are an animal advocate, compassionate and that this is confusing for you.

 

To get a sense of balance and put things in the right place, do you think you could set up a course of self-study to answer some of the questions you have?

 

While you travel, would your parents be interested in supporting a side trip to a historical site staffed with Native Americans to help you to understand the cultural issues?

 

Note to posters, Brandi is a minor home schooler with a fantastic blog in which she journals her education. Take a visit, it's very well done. :) You can find it on her signature link.

 

averagetravelingteen.blogspot.com

 

I love the idea of talking with NA about this issue. Great suggestion, and thanks for the blog link!

[Bang!Zoom!]

This Eagle "take" is unusual that it is focused on religious exemption.

 

Eagle "takes" (read: killing) and their permits are generally given to interests that are going to alter their environment and have for a long time. More Eagles are killed by Wind Turbine farms, habitat destruction, salmon fisheries and corporate interests than were ever "tooken" (lol) by Native Americans.

 

As a previous poster had mentioned Eagle feathers used in ceremony, I've seen this also up close and personal. Reverent doesn't begin to describe their value in the culture.

 

This particular tribe in discussion uses them in the Sun Dance.

[ktgrok]

sigh I had a feeling I would catch flame for this. I have always believed that if you are not going to eat it don't kill it. But my only issue with this besides the fact of the actual killing is the law behind it. Why are native americans allowed to do this? Now please explain this to me because I am not familiar with this culture. I realize that religion is a very touchy subject that comes with 500 million views. I guess I am just a little sad. I do not think there is anything honorable about death and yes there will always be a worse way to die.

 

Well, we permit hunting for skins, so feathers is really no different. If the article were about being allowed to hunt turkeys for their feathers would you have the same gut reaction, or does the symbolism of the Eagle affect your reaction?

[ktgrok]

I don't care a bit about the national bird stuff. I am not at all sure that the endangered species listing is the last word on what is truly at risk. There are a lot of pressures to remove species. I worry about the reduction in wildlife since the Europeans settled North America. I think species diversity is at risk due to global warming. Personally, I rank having generous amounts of previously at risk wildlife above recreational hunting or religious preferences.

 

I also agree with the questions about where it ends. There have been cases about the religious and animal rights issues in santeria, for example.

 

But we are talking about two birds a year in a species that has made a dramatic comeback. They are not only not endangered, they are not threatened anymore. I see them all the time where I live in Florida, and my family in Wisconsin have several families of them near their house. They just are everywhere. I think they can handle the loss of 2 birds.

 

As for the animal rights issue, killing an eagle is no different than killing a turkey, which our society condones. They are not asking to do anything different than hundreds of hunters do, just with a different species of bird.

[ktgrok]

Well I don't like the idea of granting any certain groups special privileges, I also have no problem with people practicing their religion as they wish, providing they cause no injury to other people or other people's property.

 

But technically these are a separate nation. So of course they would have different rules than us. I don't expect Canadians to have the same laws as the US.

[Whereneverever]

But we are talking about two birds a year in a species that has made a dramatic comeback. They are not only not endangered, they are not threatened anymore. I see them all the time where I live in Florida, and my family in Wisconsin have several families of them near their house. They just are everywhere. I think they can handle the loss of 2 birds.

 

As for the animal rights issue, killing an eagle is no different than killing a turkey, which our society condones. They are not asking to do anything different than hundreds of hunters do, just with a different species of bird.

 

Wyoming is working on opening up wolf hunting as well, in a much wider group then one tribe and two birds.

[brandigirl]

All right guys thanks for all the views. I really had not thought of it this way. I hate seeing things in pain from a worm on a hook to roadkill, I can not help but feel sad. I realize now that they are a seperate group and although it bothers me I have no right to infringe upon their land and culture. I actually have talked to Native American groups before they are pretty impressive :D. Most of those reserves though arent that nice and outsiders are seen as intruders and are treated as such. I would not get down in one of those reserves if you paid me. Its kind of weird some of them are very modern some very traditional and some stuck somewhere in between. I have already started researching it and I am going to email my AP World teacher to get her take on things. Wikipedia is quite useful when you comb through to get the good stuff:lol:

[creekland]

I have no problem with it and I wish they would let us get hunting permits to take out some of the red-tail hawks that are in our area. I've seen as many as six at one time and they've decimated our wild rabbit population. Now like eating chickens way too much. Red-tails are not rare any longer and I don't think they have natural predators. With their natural food supply decimated, they're turning to "important" critters and that bugs me. We don't need to wipe them out, but their numbers should match their natural food supply.

 

With regards to eagles, we have a nesting pair that live on a property next to ours and I love them. It would bother me if anyone took them out, but they're not as populous around here as the hawks are. In a different area with a sustainable population, I have no problem with issuing hunting permits for the Indians to keep their traditions.

[Jane in NC]

I have no problem with it and I wish they would let us get hunting permits to take out some of the red-tail hawks that are in our area. I've seen as many as six at one time and they've decimated our wild rabbit population. Now like eating chickens way too much. Red-tails are not rare any longer and I don't think they have natural predators. With their natural food supply decimated, they're turning to "important" critters and that bugs me. We don't need to wipe them out, but their numbers should match their natural food supply.

 

 

Rabbit populations tend to be cyclic. When the prey diminish in number, the predators will eventually diminish in number as well.

 

On a side note, I have wondered if reduced rabbit populations are due in part to rising coyote populations. I'd rather have more hawks than coyotes! ;)

[brandigirl]

I love red tail hawks we lived in an area that was full of them. They would hang out like pigeons.

[Haiku]

I am vegan, and I don't really see the need to kill animals, at all.

 

That said ... Native American nations are sovereign nations, and the US government has traditionally not done a good job of upholding their sovereign rights. Even though I personally disagree with killing animals, I think that giving the permit was the right thing to do.

 

Tara

[brandigirl]

I was actually thinking of going vegan since I am already allergic to wheat egg milk and pork and meats just do not agree with me. Maybe I will have to think that over its hard being vegan with no wheat and besides I love seafood way to much even though I only have it a few times a year.

[mamajag]

It bothers me too, and I think it is worse when it is an endangered species. Whale hunting bothers me too.

 

According to the article, they were removed from the threatened list in 2007. Their only protection is from the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

 

I support the decision, and several tribes have already been granted permission to do likewise. This is a legitimate part of their religion and culture, and I respect that. If a farm-raised bird would have been acceptable, I bet it would have been a lot easier than trying to get permits.

[mamajag]

I don't know the background of this particular event, but I see a difference between law banning a practice that is occurring currently, and someone who wants to resurrect a tradition that their great-grandparents followed, but hasn't been since. One traditional hunt I'm aware of fell in that category, and to me it seems different to have to adapt your plans to resurrect old customs based on current laws or mores.

 

 

This tribe's ceremony is considered intact and is not a resurrection attempt. One of their young men was prosecuted for killing an eagle for the Sun Dance, so they went to court afterwards to obtain a legal license for future ceremonies. There are only a few tribes with intact ceremonies that require an eagle, and several have permits to hunt them.

 

That said, even if it was a resurrection, I wouldn't have an issue with it because in many cases the inability to practice their religion was not their choice. If they want to fight to get back religious freedoms that were wrongfully and systematically taken from them that is their choice and their right.

 

I think there are bigger fish to fry as far as animal rights are concerned, and I think that eagle will be honored more in death than most animals are in life. It's a sacred animal. They're not about to go Elmer Fudd on them.

[brandigirl]

Why do we keep saying its an honorable death. I do not think anybody wants to die and when you think about it we are the ones who think its honorable not the eagle. You need it for your ritual fine but there is nothing honorable death. Yes there is always a more painful and disgraceful way to die (just look at the news) but that does not mean we make the death any better because it is killed for ceremony.

 

NOTE: I realize this is for their ceremony and yes they deserve it for their religion but I am just saying its not honorable.

[beaners]

Wyoming is working on opening up wolf hunting as well, in a much wider group then one tribe and two birds.

 

See, that's the tricky thing about conservation. It's easy to say that we need apex predators to balance the ecosystem. It's easy to say they are wild and beautiful and we shouldn't have killed them. It's easy to just say that people should find ways to live with them.

 

It's hard to worry about whether or not it is safe for your children to play in your backyard while you watch them from the window. It's hard to lose animals and money to those predators. It isn't just a matter of losing a few dollars here and there when you also worry about the safety of your children.

 

I know you are far more intimately aware of the complex issues surrounding this in your own state. It's just a very tricky subject when you move beyond everyone's vision of an ideal world into the real world where these animals are increasingly interacting with people.

[Haiku]

 

It's hard to worry about whether or not it is safe for your children to play in your backyard while you watch them from the window.

 

Unless I am missing something, isn't this just a matter of putting up a fence? I don't mean to sound blithe, because I grew up with coyotes and they regularly attacked the neighbor's ducks and any wayward cats. But really, if you live with wolves, put up a fence ... right?

 

Tara

[Whereneverever]

See, that's the tricky thing about conservation. It's easy to say that we need apex predators to balance the ecosystem. It's easy to say they are wild and beautiful and we shouldn't have killed them. It's easy to just say that people should find ways to live with them.

 

It's hard to worry about whether or not it is safe for your children to play in your backyard while you watch them from the window. It's hard to lose animals and money to those predators. It isn't just a matter of losing a few dollars here and there when you also worry about the safety of your children.

 

I know you are far more intimately aware of the complex issues surrounding this in your own state. It's just a very tricky subject when you move beyond everyone's vision of an ideal world into the real world where these animals are increasingly interacting with people.

 

Oh, I'm not protesting it. Although bears kill more people in Wyoming then wolves. ;). The wolves are more of a livestock issue, generally. I was just pointing out that we are reevaluating a lot of game management at the moment... And people who don't live here probably don't get it.

[TxMama]

Most of those reserves though arent that nice and outsiders are seen as intruders and are treated as such. I would not get down in one of those reserves if you paid me.

 

This saddens me. However, if you have never been a Native American living or visiting a reservation then you cannot possible understand the blatant hostility that is often experienced from the surrounding communities. I did not grow up on the reservation, and I remember being quite shocked as a young girl when I went to visit relatives. I'm quite shocked now as an adult professional.

 

My tribe has an excellent site to explain our sovereign nation status.

 

HTH

[beaners]

Unless I am missing something, isn't this just a matter of putting up a fence? I don't mean to sound blithe, because I grew up with coyotes and they regularly attacked the neighbor's ducks and any wayward cats. But really, if you live with wolves, put up a fence ... right?

 

Tara

 

I'm thinking as much of the mountain lion population a step-uncle has dealt with as I am about wolves, when I talk about worrying about your children. Fencing a small area for your children to play in might work right around your house, but it doesn't come close to eliminating the problems that result from an increase in predator and human populations in the same location.