For those Christian women who are struggling with this...

[stripe]

For those interested in statistics, this is very informative:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

This is from a pro-choice group ; these statistics are often used in materials produced by right to life groups.

 

About Asian Americans' increasing abortion rate and general support for it:

http://newamericamedia.org/2010/09/asian-american-women-who-accept-abortion-as-a-way-out.php

[Mommyfaithe]

I was on the table with my oldest. On the table. He was one week over the limit. I was so tiny they miscalculated his age. So I completely know what it takes to get to that place.

 

You are so blessed he was that one week over....not all are so blessed. :-(

:grouphug: and not all got away and live with that every day.'Nuff said.

 

Faithe

[NanceXToo]

Well, I have had one. Although not completely by choice. And maybe I'm not in your demographic as I was never Christian. I was raised white, middle-class, Jewish. I was 16 at the time. I got pregnant, and my mother made the decision that I was going to have an abortion, and she made the arrangements and took me to have it done and while I did feel some guilt, I was also only 16 and overwhelmed and went along with it, even though I guess I probably COULD have resisted and that she couldn't have FORCED me.

 

And then a year later I got pregnant again. And she once again tried to insist that I have another abortion. That time, I refused. There was just no way I could do it twice. No way. And she told me if I was going to make the grown up choice to have a baby, then I could leave her house and go be a grown up and do it on my own, and she pretty much kicked me out on the spot.

 

As it turned out, I had noticed in the yellow pages (while she was looking up abortion clinics) that there was an ad for something that said alternatives to abortion, and it was some Catholic anti-abortion agency, and I called them for help, and they helped me find a group home for pregnant and parenting teens (after having me sit down and watch a graphic film about the process of abortion), and they (the group home) really helped me with a lot of things. A place to stay for a year, getting into my first year of business college, getting a driver's license, parenting classes...my life turned around there, and that second baby she would have had me abort is now 20 years old.

 

I still wonder from time to time what the first baby would have been like. Was it a boy? A girl? S/he'd be a legal adult now. Doing who knows what with his or her life. Sometimes I still wish I would have refused to do it even then, even at 16. But then I guess I wouldn't have my oldest daughter now, everything would be different, it's so weird to think about. And I hadn't noticed the yellow pages ad that first time, would she have kicked me out at 16 like she did at 17? Would I have known where to go? My boyfriend at the time (yes, same guy both times), his parents didn't like me at all and were not exactly welcoming me to their home or anything. It was never a good relationship with him or his family. He eventually became my husband, then my ex husband, and good riddance, but that's a whole 'nuther story.

 

I do know friends who have confided to me about having had abortions when they were younger, mostly friends from my past as teens, and I'd confided my story to them.

 

I don't know anyone who has confided doing it as an adult, though, I guess people are more close-mouthed about that, and I guess it's easier to share when you can say that someone else "made" you do it, or you were "young," or whatever. It was still hard though. Sometimes I wish my mother would have been like, "Oh, a baby, we can make this work," or that I would have been like, "Are you crazy? No, I won't do that." But it happened the way it happened and I can only assume my life turned out as it was meant to at this point because to change that event would have changed everything.

[Parrothead]

 

2) On a sad note, even when a young couple chooses to carry a child to term, marry, and raise the child, the church often stigmatizes them and makes it know that the circumstances make them a second-class citizen. I've had friends tell me that even their younger children have been stigmatized for an older child's indiscretion. I was floored. How pitiful we are! God help us to see with love and not with judgement.

That is awful. How absolutely horrible. Do you mind if I ask which Christian denomination would do such a thing?

[Parrothead]

But it happened the way it happened and I can only assume my life turned out as it was meant to at this point because to change that event would have changed everything.

:grouphug:

[Shellydon]

Even if you think abortion is ok, I don't know of a single person who would do it nonchalently.

 

I do. An acquaintance's sister has had 4 in the last 2 years. I know there are many woman out there that struggle with the decision, but there are woman that don't give it a second thought. It has become such a part of our culture that they don't see it as wrong.

[Audrey]

 

I just was wondering what these statistics include... because a routine d&c after IUFD would be included as an abortion for statistical purposes (depending upon how the information is gathered), as well as possibly a miscarriage (spontaneous abortion, but has been lumped with all for some statistical purposes). Sometimes these statistics are difficult to read as absolute.

 

I was wondering, too. The 40% seems far too high to be only comprised of elective abortions. I can see how it would be that high if all spontaneous abortions were included, though. I think there needs to be a clear distinction between the two. One simply cannot avoid or prevent a spontaneous abortion. There is no choice in that matter. It should not be included in statistics that are aimed at targeting elective abortions. It is not the same at all.

[FaithManor]

That is awful. How absolutely horrible. Do you mind if I ask which Christian denomination would do such a thing?

 

It's generally not at a denominational level. Mostly, it happens in churches where the leadership is heavy-handed, big mouthed, and pretty certain they have a corner on the Christianity market...it literally, amongst the few types of churches that have the most problem with it, happens because the pastor and his elders are...well, I can't think of any politically correct way to put it so I'll just say, spiritually abusive.

 

My parents attended a church of this type for about three years during the last of my years before college. There was other rhetoric besides "shunning pregnant out of wedlock women" and I won't regale you with it...you can probably imagine. Anyway, the church operated a school and they would expel the girl, but not her boyfriend....they had a view of "male superiority" such that if anything happened it was entirely because the girl was a real "vixen"! Poor, poor boy. That was the attitude. Well, there was a LOT of "tude" in that place and most of it was very, very unChristian...very contrary to the words and actions of Christ.

 

But, the denomination, for the most part, was unaware of the "preaching" at this church. However, once it became well known, the pastor lost his ordination papers and the church was ousted from denominational affiliation.

 

To everyone here who has ever faced such a gut-wrenching situation, my heart goes out to you. :grouphug::grouphug:

 

Faith

[justasque]

I was wondering, too. The 40% seems far too high to be only comprised of elective abortions. I can see how it would be that high if all spontaneous abortions were included, though. I think there needs to be a clear distinction between the two. One simply cannot avoid or prevent a spontaneous abortion. There is no choice in that matter. It should not be included in statistics that are aimed at targeting elective abortions. It is not the same at all.

 

The Guttmacher statistics are lower than this. They say "At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45, and, at current rates, one in 10 women will have an abortion by age 20, one in four by age 30 and three in 10 by age 45." It's not clear to me whether this means three in ten women older have had one or more abortions per woman, or that there were three abortions for every 10 women (which would mean fewer actual women, given that some may have had more than one). I don't think they include spontaneous abortions (miscarriage).

 

PS - (:grouphug::grouphug:to Nance. Your posts are always so thoughtful.)

[LMD]

I do. An acquaintance's sister has had 4 in the last 2 years. I know there are many woman out there that struggle with the decision, but there are woman that don't give it a second thought. It has become such a part of our culture that they don't see it as wrong.

 

I've known two of those too. One was up to 4, the other - 7. Generally after one night stands, they didn't seem upset or ashamed. I'm not judging them at all, they were lovely women, they just saw it as a perfectly reasonable birth control method.

[Parrothead]

It's generally not at a denominational level. Mostly, it happens in churches where the leadership is heavy-handed, big mouthed, and pretty certain they have a corner on the Christianity market...it literally, amongst the few types of churches that have the most problem with it, happens because the pastor and his elders are...well, I can't think of any politically correct way to put it so I'll just say, spiritually abusive.

 

My parents attended a church of this type for about three years during the last of my years before college. There was other rhetoric besides "shunning pregnant out of wedlock women" and I won't regale you with it...you can probably imagine. Anyway, the church operated a school and they would expel the girl, but not her boyfriend....they had a view of "male superiority" such that if anything happened it was entirely because the girl was a real "vixen"! Poor, poor boy. That was the attitude. Well, there was a LOT of "tude" in that place and most of it was very, very unChristian...very contrary to the words and actions of Christ.

 

But, the denomination, for the most part, was unaware of the "preaching" at this church. However, once it became well known, the pastor lost his ordination papers and the church was ousted from denominational affiliation.

 

To everyone here who has ever faced such a gut-wrenching situation, my heart goes out to you. :grouphug::grouphug:

 

Faith

How awful.

 

I'm gobsmacked that there are still people who don't realize that it takes two. Or that women can't control their urges. What poppycock!

 

Thanks for clarifying.

[Rhonda in TX]

A friend good friend confided in me a few years ago that she had had an abortion. She had strayed away from her Christian faith and was living a lifestyle that she knows was very wrong. It is her biggest regret in her life. What saddens me is that she told me that when she confided this to another Christian woman, that woman then treated her like a pariah. :(

 

Another assumption that Christians make is that we were all virgins when we married. While I was, many of my friends were not. We all have sin in our lives, past and present. I am so thankful for God's grace.

[Laurie4b]

Yep--a friend in college had 6. She used it for birth control after inconsistent use of condoms and diaphragm.

 

For some women it is heart-wrenching, for others, it's not a big deal. I don't think we can generalize one way or the other. It depends on the individual woman and what her beliefs are.

[ktgrok]

My best friend has been through this. It still haunts her.

[Joanne]

A book I am reading that would be appropriate in this thread:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Proverbs-Ashes-Violence-Redemptive-Suffering/dp/0807067970/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328057241&sr=8-1

[PiCO]

Statistics show that 40% of US women have had an abortion.

 

I am interested in where this statistic came from. It seems extremely high to me. I don't think I'm that naive...

 

I had one friend in college who had an abortion (that I know of.) She was Christian then, she had the procedure done because she didn't want her parents to be ashamed of her. She was also talked into it by an adult who was WAY out of line IMO. She ended up marrying the young man after college, and they are still married. I know she grieves for that child still, every day.

 

As you know, I am an atheist- but I am against abortion. I do think they should be legal, because illegal abortions are a nightmare. But girls need to know the alternatives are all better for everyone, and help is out there.

[justasque]

When I read the statistics, what strikes me most is how many different stories there are behind the numbers.

 

Two interesting stats on women who have had more than one abortion, again from Guttmacher.

 

• Age. The strongest characteristic distinguishing firsttime and repeat abortion patients is age: Women who are older have had more years of exposure to the risk of having an unintended pregnancy and an abortion. Women obtaining second or higher-order abortions are almost twice as likely as those obtaining first abortions to be aged 30 or older (32% vs. 18%), a pattern that holds up when controlling for other factors through logistic regression.

 

• Prior births. The second important distinguishing characteristic is parity: Women having repeat abortions are more likely than first-time abortion patients to have had prior births (76% vs. 47%), and more likely to have had many [prior births] (19% vs. 8% have had three or more prior births). Again, this relationship holds up even when controlling for a woman’s age and other factors.

 

Stats on poverty:

 

Poverty Status

Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions in 2008 reported family incomes that qualified them as poor, and an additional 27% were low-income (i.e., had family incomes of 100–199% of the federal poverty level). By contrast, the proportion who were poor in 2000 was 27%; the increase was statistically significant and continued a trend that had begun between 1994 and 2000.

 

The decreases in the proportions who were low-income and better off (i.e., reported family incomes of at least 200% of the poverty level) were also statistically significant. Poor women were overrepresented among abortion patients. Their relative abortion rate was more than twice that of all women in 2008 (abortion index, 2.66) and more than five times that of women at 200% or more of the poverty level (0.48). The abortion rate for low-income women (1.42) was three times that of better-off women. Not only do poor women have above-average relative abortion rates, the abortion indices suggest that the difference increased between 2000 and 2008 (from 2.08 to 2.66). In contrast, the abortion indices for both low-income and better-off women decreased.

 

Stats on prior pregnancies. These are the stories we rarely hear, I think.

 

Prior Pregnancies

Abortion and motherhood are often regarded as opposing interests, and it is often assumed that women who obtain abortions do not want to be mothers because they are unable or unwilling to assume the responsibilities of raising a child. But 61% of women obtaining abortions in 2008 already had children, including 34% who had two or more. [bolding mine]

Edited February 1, 2012 by askPauline
clarifying quotes

[Shellydon]

My heart breaks for woman who have abortions has teens or young twenties. It must be awful when they decide to have children later in life.

[zaichiki]

What you say WRT how we should be treating others is absolutely on-target.

 

I just was wondering what these statistics include... because a routine d&c after IUFD would be included as an abortion for statistical purposes (depending upon how the information is gathered), as well as possibly a miscarriage (spontaneous abortion, but has been lumped with all for some statistical purposes). Sometimes these statistics are difficult to read as absolute.

 

I was wondering about this. 40% seems like such a HUGE number. Are these procedures included in the number?

[8circles]

I do. An acquaintance's sister has had 4 in the last 2 years. I know there are many woman out there that struggle with the decision, but there are woman that don't give it a second thought. It has become such a part of our culture that they don't see it as wrong.[/QUote]

:iagree: in college I knew a girl who had 7. No im not kidding.

[Paige]

I believe the statistic also seems high because it is counting individual abortions and generalizing it to everyone. A lot of people who have abortions, will have more than one, while many people have none. It's like, if I have 10 kids and 4 cookies....you could say that there are cookies for 40% of the kids and that would be true. In reality, however, it is likely that the youngest 2 kids sneaked into the kitchen and ate all the cookies.

[Moxie]

Maybe this has been answered, I haven't read the whole thread. I'm curious what they mean by "Christian". Is there a form to fill out? Check one--Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Other. I'd say a lot of people would mark "Christian" because they aren't any of the other things.

[goldberry]

Thank you for posting, Bethany.

 

I am wholeheartedly against abortion. But I had a friend who went through a horrible situation..and for the first time in my life I could see how how someone could reach that point. It was eye-opening.

 

I can honestly say I felt nothing but gutwrenching sadness for them both - mom and baby.

[Renee in NC]

I was wondering about this. 40% seems like such a HUGE number. Are these procedures included in the number?

 

What the statistics say is that 50% of women have an unintended pregnancy at some point in their lives and 40% of THOSE have an abortion. That means that 20% of all women will have had an abortion at some point in their lives, not 40%.

[LucyStoner]

A book I am reading that would be appropriate in this thread:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Proverbs-Ashes-Violence-Redemptive-Suffering/dp/0807067970/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328057241&sr=8-1

 

Great book. Very moving and challenging.

[LucyStoner]

What I find interesting is parsing what pro-life and pro-choice even mean.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148880/Plenty-Common-Ground-Found-Abortion-Debate.aspx

 

A significant percentage of people who say they are prolife are in favor of legal abortions under a number of circumstances. A significant percentage of people who say they are prochoice are in favor of various restrictions on abortion. In 1975, only about 22% of people thought abortions should be illegal in all cases. Today? Roughly the same. 38 years of debate and nothing is all that different.

 

All of the younger women I know who have had abortions I am aware of are religious. I helped many of them, they would find me because I was the liberal kid at church camp and they did not have anyone else they could tell. Most because of fear of their family or reaction from their religious community. The older women I know who have tend to do so more for economic and other pressures than anything else and as the stats bear out, often already have kids they can barely afford.

Edited February 1, 2012 by kijipt