What are they learning in PS?

[Peri]

OK so I have been sending my kids to PS and that is why I haven't been on here in a while. I just felt bad coming on here because I missed HSing so much.

 

Something has been bothering me about my sons and school. I feel like they are focusing more on sight words than they are on reading. When I was researching home school methods, it was my understanding that you go in the following order when it comes to teaching them to read:

 

1. Memorize the alphabet

2. Know what each letter looks like

3. Know what each letter sounds like

4. Know sound blends ... in other words phonics

5. Know sight words

 

I know that you have to overlap all of these but they should be introduced in this way or at least I think so. It just seems to me that 4 was skipped and they went straight to 5. They sent a small little reader home with my youngest who is in KG yesterday and I watched him read. It was introducing the sight words We and Have. He would read the sight words but instead of trying to sound out the other word he would look at the picture and say it. This isn't reading. I had to cover up the picture and make him sound out the word and it looked to me like he had no idea how to sound it out. I had to guide him through it. Seven hours in school! What the hell are they doing there?

[almondbutterandjelly]

Some ps do not use phonics at all. Only sight words. You may have gotten one of those. You might want to consider afterschooling with Abeka Phonics or some other phonics program.

[Peri]

Some ps do not use phonics at all. Only sight words. You may have gotten one of those. You might want to consider afterschooling with Abeka Phonics or some other phonics program.

 

Well then it's no wonder that DS8 is still reading at a KG level. I had no idea what was going on. I have just figured this out.

[msk]

Public school is not meant to operate in a total vacuum, 7 hours a day or not. Parent involvement is still necessary. It's important to have an idea of what is going on and try to help your kids learn anything they seem to be struggling with. Can you watch/help them do their homework? Volunteer in their classrooms, even if it's just for a couple of hours every month or two? Look at school or district websites to see what materials they are using, what their "standards" are in terms of the skills they work on each year, etc? Are classroom newsletters ever sent home? Do you have parent-teacher conferences? Are you in contact with your kids' teachers at all?

 

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, perhaps I'm misreading your post and what you mean by having "no idea" what has been going on for however long they've been there.

 

My daughter is in K this year in a PS, and has had those same sight words recently and what sounds like a similar reader. In her school that is known as "pre-reading" and not reading. I've been in her classroom and seen the kids sounding out words, and she does this regularly with us at home too so she can get more practice and one-on-one help. Yes, her "sight reading" skills outstrip her phonics skills right now, but I think they will catch up fast. If they don't, we'll simply increase our time spent on that at home, no big deal.

 

Another thing to think about is how your attitude about the school influences your kids. I know you wrote this in a moment of frustration, but if you give your kids the impression you resent the school and think it is a big waste of time, they will pick up on that and decide it's not worth their while to work hard. Again, sorry if this is not how you normally feel/act, but this particular post definitely has that tone to it.

[Shellydon]

Lots of schools skip phonics instruction. I worked at one for awhile. The schools I worked at also expected a child to know their letters and sounds before entering Kinder.

[Peri]

Public school is not meant to operate in a total vacuum, 7 hours a day or not. Parent involvement is still necessary. It's important to have an idea of what is going on and try to help your kids learn anything they seem to be struggling with. Can you watch/help them do their homework? Volunteer in their classrooms, even if it's just for a couple of hours every month or two? Look at school or district websites to see what materials they are using, what their "standards" are in terms of the skills they work on each year, etc? Are classroom newsletters ever sent home? Do you have parent-teacher conferences? Are you in contact with your kids' teachers at all?

 

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, perhaps I'm misreading your post and what you mean by having "no idea" what has been going on for however long they've been there.

 

My daughter is in K this year in a PS, and has had those same sight words recently and what sounds like a similar reader. In her school that is known as "pre-reading" and not reading. I've been in her classroom and seen the kids sounding out words, and she does this regularly with us at home too so she can get more practice and one-on-one help. Yes, her "sight reading" skills outstrip her phonics skills right now, but I think they will catch up fast. If they don't, we'll simply increase our time spent on that at home, no big deal.

 

Another thing to think about is how your attitude about the school influences your kids. I know you wrote this in a moment of frustration, but if you give your kids the impression you resent the school and think it is a big waste of time, they will pick up on that and decide it's not worth their while to work hard. Again, sorry if this is not how you normally feel/act, but this particular post definitely has that tone to it.

 

I actually love the school my kids attend and I have no problem with the teacher until I discovered this. I do get a newsletter with a list of sight words that they are going over this week and their other activities. I was surprised to see how quickly they jumped into sight words but I didn't say anything about it and maybe I should have. I just think that phonics should be more stressed on than the 20+ words they have to memorize and I think this is a disservice to our kids.

[GoVanGogh]

I just finished reading "The Good School" by Peg Tyre. It was a very enlightening read, even though we homeschool. (It is written for parents with children in public and private schools.) Her chapter on reading instruction is very informative. One of the biggest take-aways: Do not let reading instruction slide! Even a year delay at the younger ages can make a significant difference down the road.

Being taught primarily with sight words is why so many teenagers are graduating not able to read.

[msk]

I actually love the school my kids attend and I have no problem with the teacher until I discovered this. I do get a newsletter with a list of sight words that they are going over this week and their other activities. I was surprised to see how quickly they jumped into sight words but I didn't say anything about it and maybe I should have. I just think that phonics should be more stressed on than the 20+ words they have to memorize and I think this is a disservice to our kids.

 

That's good-- it sounds like you are just stressed right now and I misinterpreted your post. Maybe you can arrange to talk to the teacher (after you've had time to decompress), let her know your son doesn't seem to be sounding things out or learning phonics, and see what she says. If your school really doesn't teach it at all, that does sound bad, but you can do it yourself as others mentioned. If they are using "some" phonics but it doesn't seem to be sinking in, it may be pretty easy to supplement what he already knows. (I just got the OPGTR from the library myself so I can give a better explanation of some of the rules about long vowel sounds.)

[....]

Do you have Ordinary Parents' Guide to Teaching Reading? In the back of the book, JW has a section about remedial reading with an older child. :thumbup1: I pulled my son out of public school and he did not know his letter sounds. He wasn't able to learn to read with the way they were teaching in ps. He eventually learned to read with Hooked on Phonics. He's a great reader now and he is a better speller than my oldest daughter (who learned to read in public school by the whole-word-method or whatever they call it). I think some kids really need phonics to learn to read.

 

About the comment about ps not operating in a vaccuum...two of my kids went to ps for awhile. There IS no time for anything else. They're gone all day and when they get home, they're exhausted...they've got homework, projects, permission slips, dinner... There's no way my son would want to sit and learn to read after sitting in class all day. At some point, they needed time to play and be kids. :confused:

[littleWMN]

Well, I homeschool my kids but my 5 year old went to K this year. She has special needs and was in a special needs classroom. This is the VERY reason I pulled her out. They were pushing sight words and she hasn't learned phonics yet. It's a HUGE issue to me. I loved her teacher and the class and her services and everything. There were a few small issues but this was the #1 reason I pulled her out and have not looked back.

[simka2]

I am actually glad for the sight word instruction my son is receiving. His school does sight words and phonics at the same time. Learnning the sight words has given him a sense of accomplishment and excitment with reading that my older two really missed out on. My older boys learned to hate reading, because it was a solid phonics/decoding type approach that was really difficult for my undiagnosed Dyslexic.

 

I was walking through the K classrooms a couple weeks ago and was very pleased with the blending I heard and saw them doing. They touch their shoulders for the first sound and then run their hand down to the elbows for the second sound and out past the wrist for the third. It is all done with a fluid sweeping motion.

 

I am sorry your school is not doing phonics along with the sight words.

[NatYoung17]

Some ps do not use phonics at all. Only sight words. You may have gotten one of those. You might want to consider afterschooling with Abeka Phonics or some other phonics program.

 

:iagree:

[msk]

About the comment about ps not operating in a vaccuum...two of my kids went to ps for awhile. There IS no time for anything else. They're gone all day and when they get home, they're exhausted...they've got homework, projects, permission slips, dinner... There's no way my son would want to sit and learn to read after sitting in class all day. At some point, they needed time to play and be kids. :confused:

 

That's too bad. That must be another thing that varies a lot by school. It's not a big deal at all for us to work on something for 10-15 minutes once or twice at some point between the end of the school day (2:30 here) and bedtime, but our school seems to have a much more sane homework policy than some. I've heard some people have more luck with this in the morning, especially if their kids are exhausted after school (mine really isn't, but I know some kids are).

[beaners]

I had to cover up the picture and make him sound out the word and it looked to me like he had no idea how to sound it out. I had to guide him through it.

 

Some ps do not use phonics at all. Only sight words. You may have gotten one of those. You might want to consider afterschooling with Abeka Phonics or some other phonics program.

 

My mother is a nanny for two young boys. One of them was having trouble reading some things in one of his books, and she was trying to help him sound out the words. Not only did he have no idea what she was talking about, his teacher later informed the family that he should not be taught how to sound things out.

 

I'm not horribly opposed to teaching sight words in addition to phonics, but I'll admit that a teacher "forbidding" parents from showing their children how to sound out words horrifies me for so many reasons.

[Tammyla]

I would expect a child to be taught to read at school with no parental help or involvement.

 

I realize, most families are going to be involved to some extent, but learning to read should be the educators number one job and priority. You'll never read to learn if you can't read. jm2cents.

 

OK so I have been sending my kids to PS and that is why I haven't been on here in a while. I just felt bad coming on here because I missed HSing so much.

 

Something has been bothering me about my sons and school. I feel like they are focusing more on sight words than they are on reading. When I was researching home school methods, it was my understanding that you go in the following order when it comes to teaching them to read:

 

1. Memorize the alphabet

2. Know what each letter looks like

3. Know what each letter sounds like

4. Know sound blends ... in other words phonics

5. Know sight words

 

I know that you have to overlap all of these but they should be introduced in this way or at least I think so. It just seems to me that 4 was skipped and they went straight to 5. They sent a small little reader home with my youngest who is in KG yesterday and I watched him read. It was introducing the sight words We and Have. He would read the sight words but instead of trying to sound out the other word he would look at the picture and say it. This isn't reading. I had to cover up the picture and make him sound out the word and it looked to me like he had no idea how to sound it out. I had to guide him through it. Seven hours in school! What the hell are they doing there?

[Lily_Grace]

OK so I have been sending my kids to PS and that is why I haven't been on here in a while. I just felt bad coming on here because I missed HSing so much.

 

Something has been bothering me about my sons and school. I feel like they are focusing more on sight words than they are on reading. When I was researching home school methods, it was my understanding that you go in the following order when it comes to teaching them to read:

 

1. Memorize the alphabet

2. Know what each letter looks like

3. Know what each letter sounds like

4. Know sound blends ... in other words phonics

5. Know sight words

 

I know that you have to overlap all of these but they should be introduced in this way or at least I think so. It just seems to me that 4 was skipped and they went straight to 5. They sent a small little reader home with my youngest who is in KG yesterday and I watched him read. It was introducing the sight words We and Have. He would read the sight words but instead of trying to sound out the other word he would look at the picture and say it. This isn't reading. I had to cover up the picture and make him sound out the word and it looked to me like he had no idea how to sound it out. I had to guide him through it. Seven hours in school! What the hell are they doing there?

 

And that's why we taught reading before I sent my son to PS. I learned that their method was sight/whole language. I prefer the more streamlined phonics approach:

1. Teach the main sound for each letter

2. Teach how to blend sounds.

3. Teach how to sound out words in sentences.

4. Teach letter names.

5. Teach common sight words.

 

I could never figure out why on earth public schools would waste so much time and energy first with useless information (giving them letter names but having no way to use them) and then progressing to utter confusion. Don't get me wrong, sight word lists have their place, but certainly not at the beginning of the reading journey.

[Kalmia]

I know it is hard for people who have excellent public schools to believe, but many, many of us are stuck in school districts where phonics is not only not taught, but parents are instructed not to use phonics. I quote from a note the teacher sent the parents of my son's kindergarten class: "If your child still cannot figure out a word after looking at the picture NEVER ask them to sound out the word. Instead have them guess from context."

 

Luckily my son was reading before he went to school. My cousin was taught with the whole-language sight word method, and she was still guessing words in 5th grade. Halt the guessing game now.

 

Don't count on a meeting with the teacher to change anything. Afterschool 15 minutes a day with OPG or a similar resource. A fun game is to print a funny sentence containing the phonograms he has learned at the bottom of the page and to tell him you will draw the funny picture to go with it after he has sounded out the words. (Something like: The cat sat on the hat--anything that will make a funny visual.) My kids loved this game and it didn't seem like work. Plus they are too small to care how well you draw.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Kalmia

[Mom22ns]

My kids went to ps when they were little. Their public school did letters, letter sounds and sight words in K. They were expected to be reading independently in order to go on to first, but were taught no phonics beyond letter sounds. When they got to first they had a good solid year of phonics though - really solid.

 

Both of my kids were reading on a high school level by the time they left that school (one by 3rd grade the other by 4th). Of course, they were both reading before they started too. :D

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

That is exactly what ds5's friend in public school is learning. She can read "I like the slide." But can't sound out "cat."

[*********]

Lots of schools skip phonics instruction. I worked at one for awhile. The schools I worked at also expected a child to know their letters and sounds before entering Kinder.

 

I find both of those things to be strange. Why on earth do schools NOT teach phonics; and why would a child be expected to know both the letters AND their sounds BEFORE entering Kindy? Some kids are only four years old at the start of Kindy! I was! I knew how to say the alphabet, but I'm not sure I could identify all my letters, and I'm REALLY doubting I could tell you all the sounds. Do you mean also the long and short vowel sounds? That just seems strange. Isn't that what Kindy is FOR?

 

I am actually glad for the sight word instruction my son is receiving. His school does sight words and phonics at the same time. Learnning the sight words has given him a sense of accomplishment and excitment with reading that my older two really missed out on. My older boys learned to hate reading, because it was a solid phonics/decoding type approach that was really difficult for my undiagnosed Dyslexic.

 

I was walking through the K classrooms a couple weeks ago and was very pleased with the blending I heard and saw them doing. They touch their shoulders for the first sound and then run their hand down to the elbows for the second sound and out past the wrist for the third. It is all done with a fluid sweeping motion.

 

I am sorry your school is not doing phonics along with the sight words.

 

We use CLE, and I like their combined approach of phonics and sight words both taught at the same time. Like Simka's dc, my boys are really encouraged (when they're first learning to read) by having those sight words they can read easily. It gives them the boost they need to not get exhausted and discouraged when they encounter a word they have to sound out. It works well for us.

 

I know it is hard for people who have excellent public schools to believe, but many, many of us are stuck in school districts where phonics is not only not taught, but parents are instructed not to use phonics. I quote from a note the teacher sent the parents of my son's kindergarten class: "If your child still cannot figure out a word after looking at the picture NEVER ask them to sound out the word. Instead have them guess from context."

 

Ok, you're not the first poster to mention this. I have to ask, what in the WORLD is the reasoning behind NOT teaching phonics/how to sound out words? Why would it be preferable to have the child guess?! I don't get it. Someone 'splain it, would ya? I mean, what exactly would the teacher say is BAD about knowing phonics?

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I find both of those things to be strange. Why on earth do schools NOT teach phonics; and why would a child be expected to know both the letters AND their sounds BEFORE entering Kindy? Some kids are only four years old at the start of Kindy! I was! I knew how to say the alphabet, but I'm not sure I could identify all my letters, and I'm REALLY doubting I could tell you all the sounds. Do you mean also the long and short vowel sounds? That just seems strange. Isn't that what Kindy is FOR?

 

 

 

We use CLE, and I like their combined approach of phonics and sight words both taught at the same time. Like Simka's dc, my boys are really encouraged (when they're first learning to read) by having those sight words they can read easily. It gives them the boost they need to not get exhausted and discouraged when they encounter a word they have to sound out. It works well for us.

 

 

 

Ok, you're not the first poster to mention this. I have to ask, what in the WORLD is the reasoning behind NOT teaching phonics/how to sound out words? Why would it be preferable to have the child guess?! I don't get it. Someone 'splain it, would ya? I mean, what exactly would the teacher say is BAD about knowing phonics?

 

 

My kids were not only expected to know their letters and sounds before they entered public school K, they were also supposed to know how to write. They kept a journal from day 1 of K. My kids knew how to write their names upon entering school, but that was it. It drove me crazy that they didn't teach them how to write the letters. I had to teach them at home so they could write in the stupid journals. Our schools teach a blend of phonics and sight words, which I also found kind of confusing, but luckily both my kids knew how to read before going to school.

[FourOaks]

This is definitely what I am finding.

 

I have always homeschooled my kids. Up until very recently I knew absolutely NOTHING about the public school where we live -- never had a need to.

 

As of this past Sept. I am doing before & after school care for a couple of my neighbors. I have 2 1st graders (same as my youngest dd) and a 2nd grader. My 1st grader is still learning her phonics, which I am a HUGE proponent of. By "outsiders" accounts -- those that send their kids to public school -- she would probably be in the lowest reading level. I teach sequential phonics along with appropriate phonics, so her ready is far from fluent. She sounds out all words.

 

When the kids come home from school they do their homework with us. This experience has solidified for us the fact that what they are being taught is absolutely useless. One of the 1st graders is not a strong reader and it is quite apparent that if he does not remember the words of the story that were drilled into his head prior to bringing that same story home, he is completely unable to sound out the word. They do not know phonics. They bring absolutely no phonics work home.

 

As an aside, when I was in college for my teaching degree, it was at the beginning of the "whole language" movement. We were not taught a shred of phonics. NONE. I personally believe this is yet another reason why kids in ps struggle and aren't reading at levels that kids were 50-75 years ago. Take away phonics and you take away the necessary skills to sound out words, and therefore the ability to truly know how to read anything. JMHO

[FourOaks]

Sorry, meant to type "appropriate sight words".

[merry gardens]

...It was introducing the sight words We and Have. He would read the sight words but instead of trying to sound out the other word he would look at the picture and say it. This isn't reading. ..

The words "we" and "have" are not sight words. They are words that fluent readers should know by sight; HOWEVER they follow the rules of phonics. They can be sounded out.

 

"We" is an open syllable so the vowel makes its long sound. "Have" is a silent e syllable, but in this case the e doesn't make the "a" say it's name. A is making its short sound but the silent e is there because American words don't end with the letter v.

[Shellydon]

I find both of those things to be strange. Why on earth do schools NOT teach phonics; and why would a child be expected to know both the letters AND their sounds BEFORE entering Kindy? Some kids are only four years old at the start of Kindy! I was! I knew how to say the alphabet, but I'm not sure I could identify all my letters, and I'm REALLY doubting I could tell you all the sounds. Do you mean also the long and short vowel sounds? That just seems strange. Isn't that what Kindy is FOR?

 

 

 

Ok, you're not the first poster to mention this. I have to ask, what in the WORLD is the reasoning behind NOT teaching phonics/how to sound out words? Why would it be preferable to have the child guess?! I don't get it. Someone 'splain it, would ya? I mean, what exactly would the teacher say is BAD about knowing phonics?

 

There are several theories and educational philosophies do not include phonics instruction. It is really very common.

In my state, you must be 5 by Sept. 1 to enter Kinder. School begins August 20, so while there are young 5 year olds, no one is 4 for more than a few days.

[*********]

There are several theories and educational philosophies do not include phonics instruction. It is really very common.

In my state, you must be 5 by Sept. 1 to enter Kinder. School begins August 20, so while there are young 5 year olds, no one is 4 for more than a few days.

 

Yes, I *get* that it is not uncommon to not teach phonics; I'm asking what the REASONING in those theories/philosophies would be for forbidding a child to learn to sound out words instead of guessing. I don't get that, so I was hoping someone would explain it to me.

 

My birthday is Nov. 6. I started Kindy sometime in late August, which means I didn't turn five until almost 2 1/2 months into Kindy.

 

Moose's birthday is at the end of November. Our state cut-off for entering Kindy is December first. Our schools now start the day after Labor Day every year. Which means, had I put Moose in Kindy last year, he would not have turned five until over 2 1/2 months into the school year; some children may be as much as three months into the Kindy year before turning five.

 

Every state has it's own date cut-off for entering Kindy; personally, I think a child should have to be 5 by July 1 to enter Kindy that year. Seems to me that makes the most sense, but no one asked me. :D

[Shellydon]

Yes, I *get* that it is not uncommon to not teach phonics; I'm asking what the REASONING in those theories/philosophies would be for forbidding a child to learn to sound out words instead of guessing. I don't get that, so I was hoping someone would explain it to me.

 

My birthday is Nov. 6. I started Kindy sometime in late August, which means I didn't turn five until almost 2 1/2 months into Kindy.

 

Moose's birthday is at the end of November. Our state cut-off for entering Kindy is December first. Our schools now start the day after Labor Day every year. Which means, had I put Moose in Kindy last year, he would not have turned five until over 2 1/2 months into the school year; some children may be as much as three months into the Kindy year before turning five.

 

Every state has it's own date cut-off for entering Kindy; personally, I think a child should have to be 5 by July 1 to enter Kindy that year. Seems to me that makes the most sense, but no one asked me. :D

 

 

I haven't taken an education class in nearly 20 years, so I am not in a position to summarize the major points of various education philosophies. I am sure an internet search would yield you several sources including books you can check out from your library though.

[beaners]

Yes, I *get* that it is not uncommon to not teach phonics; I'm asking what the REASONING in those theories/philosophies would be for forbidding a child to learn to sound out words instead of guessing. I don't get that, so I was hoping someone would explain it to me.

 

.....

 

Every state has it's own date cut-off for entering Kindy; personally, I think a child should have to be 5 by July 1 to enter Kindy that year. Seems to me that makes the most sense, but no one asked me. :D

 

I've heard a few reasons, but I'm not sure if they are the actual reasons given by the teachers. One is that it doesn't fit into the very specific "look-say" model of teaching that supposedly fell out of favor but is still used in some places. Another is that students will already know phonics and be bored when it is taught in a later grade. A third is that students will ask too many questions about things like vowel blends and why words sound the way they do, instead of just learning the word and moving on. I've heard all of those, but I don't know if they are behind the reasoning of the "forbidden phonics" teachers.

 

If we weren't already planning on homeschooling, a July 1 date would have sealed the deal for us. My daughter would miss it by a few days and enter a year later than she is scheduled for now. She would enjoy the social aspect of it, but I don't think the school would have a clue what to do with her.

[Kalmia]

Bethanyniez,

 

This is all I could find to answer your question right now. It is from Charles j. Sykes book Dumbing Down Our Kids.

 

Sykes finds the origin of this whole-word philosophy began with James Cattell at Columbia University in the late 19th c. "Through a series of experiments Cattell found that adults who knew how to read can recognize words without sounding out letters. From that, he drew the conclusion that words aren't sounded out, but are seen as 'total word pictures.' If competent readers do not need to sound out words, he declared, then there was little point in teaching such skills to children. "The result," wrote Lance J. Klass in The Leipzig Connection, "was the dropping of the phonic or alphabetic method of teaching reading, and its replacement by the sight-reading method in use throughout America."

 

"As many of his successors would do, Cattell confused the 'attributes' of readers (or in later eduspeak, 'the expected behaviors' or 'outcomes') with the appropriate way of acquiring those attributes. Of course, skilled readers did not stop to sound out words; long practice had made that unnecessary. It was thus an 'outcome' of learning to read; the mechanics of reading, including the ability to sound out words, enabled the reader to achieve that outcome. But since the actual process of sounding out words is not the desired 'outcome.' educationsts decided that they could dispense with it." Sykes p. 107-108

[Peri]

I would expect a child to be taught to read at school with no parental help or involvement.

 

I realize, most families are going to be involved to some extent, but learning to read should be the educators number one job and priority. You'll never read to learn if you can't read. jm2cents.

 

:iagree:I feel like I'm doing most of the work. I have to make sure his handwriting is good. I have to make sure he knows his sight words. I have to make sure he knows how to sound it out. When I was in elementary school, we didn't have parental involvement at all. I'm not saying that that is the best set up but to me parental involvement meant knowing what your kids are doing in school and helping them to some extent. I feel like most of the learning is taking place at home and not in the schools. I might as well just pull him out and home school.

[EJCMom]

All I can say is, my MIL learned the "whole language" way to read with sight words, and although she loves to read, I'm amazed when she's reading to my kids how often she "reads" the wrong word. Seriously...Dr. Seuss doesn't even rhyme! :lol: If I didn't already homeschool, I would pull my child out of any school that not only doesn't teach phonics, but actually forbade me from doing it.

[Ohdanigirl]

:iagree:I feel like I'm doing most of the work. I have to make sure his handwriting is good. I have to make sure he knows how to sound it out. ....

 

.... I feel like most of the learning is taking place at home and not in the schools. I might as well just pull him out and home school.

 

This is why I began home schooling my dc. They were in a private school that actually did phonics, but I still felt like I was doing ALL the work.

 

I also tutored kids in San Diego area schools, and rarely had kids that knew phonics. The only ones I have met that did lived in the VERY upscale communities with the top notch schools. It is tough to see.

 

Danielle

[Shellydon]

The last school district I worked at had all children K-5 learning with this method

 

http://www.four-blocks.com/index.htm

[Peri]

The words "we" and "have" are not sight words. They are words that fluent readers should know by sight; HOWEVER they follow the rules of phonics. They can be sounded out.

 

"We" is an open syllable so the vowel makes its long sound. "Have" is a silent e syllable, but in this case the e doesn't make the "a" say it's name. A is making its short sound but the silent e is there because American words don't end with the letter v.

 

In his school they are sight words ...

[2_girls_mommy]

I haven't read all of the posts, but I wanted to say it doesn't mean they don't do phonics. You have a specific order in mind, but some programs do it differently and still teach phonics.

 

We used Rod and Staff reading and phonics. It has a big phonics emphasis. But still, the first readers used pictures and sight words. It gives the child the feeling they are "reading" and gently begins adding in words with the phonics they are learning as it goes. So by the end of the year they are learning less sight words and relying much more on the phonics skills. It didn't hurt my dd any :) She is reading at a fine 2nd grade level, still practicing her phonics every day in Rod and Staff phonics and spelling workbooks (we did drop the reading and sight words after 1st when she had a good handle on reading...)

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

I could go on for days about why they do it when all the research shows otherwise...and in fact the research also shows that the less sight words and more explicit the phonics used, the less reading failures. But, I'm very busy this week, if you still want to know in a week or two, PM me to remind me and I'll post it here!

 

But, after years of remedial reading tutoring, I do know the best way to fix the problem and can quickly explain that:

 

Nonsense words and quickly teach the sight words phonetically.

 

Nonsense words via my concentration game.

 

How and why to teach all but 2 of the most commonly taught Dolch sight words phonetically:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/sightwords.html

 

And, for an older student, work through the things on my how to tutor page or my phonics lessons (linked below) and the syllable division exercises on my how to tutor page.

Edited January 26, 2012 by ElizabethB

[Peri]

So after two grueling afternoons of practicing reading with the bob books, he finally is sounding out and not just guessing at the words anymore. It has been exhausting to try to get him to stop guessing and sound out using phonics.

[ElizabethB]

So after two grueling afternoons of practicing reading with the bob books, he finally is sounding out and not just guessing at the words anymore. It has been exhausting to try to get him to stop guessing and sound out using phonics.

 

Nonsense words! Nonsense words stop the guessing.

 

It is exhausting...a lot of retraining and un-teaching.

 

My easiest remedial students have actually been those of formerly homeless moms; there is no re-training necessary since they were out of school so much.

[Peri]

Nonsense words! Nonsense words stop the guessing.

 

It is exhausting...a lot of retraining and un-teaching.

 

My easiest remedial students have actually been those of formerly homeless moms; there is no re-training necessary since they were out of school so much.

 

I looked at your program and I am kind of doing that. I have a set of alphabet flash cards and I will put down the letter A and ask him what sound that makes. Then I will put down the letter M and ask him what sound that makes. Then i will ask him what it sounds like if he were to put them together. Then I put a series of letters in front of them, like B, and ask him what would happen if I put B in front of AM? Then i will pull out a book that uses that blend. I had to do the whole process twice today. I also had to underline the AM to get him to read it and stop guessing.

[ElizabethB]

I looked at your program and I am kind of doing that. I have a set of alphabet flash cards and I will put down the letter A and ask him what sound that makes. Then I will put down the letter M and ask him what sound that makes. Then i will ask him what it sounds like if he were to put them together. Then I put a series of letters in front of them, like B, and ask him what would happen if I put B in front of AM? Then i will pull out a book that uses that blend. I had to do the whole process twice today. I also had to underline the AM to get him to read it and stop guessing.

 

:grouphug:

 

Sounds like you are doing great!

 

I also sometimes have my students sound out every sound before they are allowed to say a word. You can also give them incentives not to guess--for example, they will have to sound out 10 words if they don't guess, but 18 if they guess at any of the words. (You select the numbers according to their ability, but the ratio of words should be somewhere around there.)

[HeidiKC]

My ds is at school in Kindergarten, and they do something similar. BUT they are not skipping phonics, they are just introducing sight words this year. They are doing just some very basic phonics (I think they have learned short vowel sounds, and maybe blends and silent e?), but then hit it really hard in 1st grade. I am not crazy about this, but it doesn't bother me as much as it used to. He also brings home little readers, and I don't expect him to sound words out (although he is beginning to do so recently) since he hasn't learned the phonics rules. What I did until recently was pointed to each word as I read the book, then let him do it the second time around (since there were going to be words that he hadn't learned yet).

 

I don't think it's so bad to learn some easy sight words first, but I don't like it that there are other words mixed in the books they have to read, and they don't have the phonics background to figure them out. I guess it is probably the idea that they don't teach real reading until 1st grade, but are at least giving them a headstart by putting some sight words in their toolboxes.

 

So I wouldn't write the school off and assume they don't teach phonics. Have you asked the teacher if they'll be doing that next year or if she does any phonics with them?

 

As for the 7 hours at school, hopefully they are doing some wonderful things like "science", learning about money and it's value, learning about our Presidents, some basic information about American Indians, rhymes, memorizing the Pledge of Allegiance, learning about artists and different types of art, music, composers and musical instruments, maybe some basic cooking (involving measuring), seasons, mental math, learning how to form letters correctly, learning that sentences begin with a capital letter and end with a period. Or if it's a question, with a question mark. There are so many fun (and important) things they learn in kindergarten, and I don't think they are wasting all day doing those things. I'm amazed at all my ds has learned this year. He even informed me that for each line on a pumpkin, there is a seed! I had NO idea. He learned that an apple grew from a flower, and showed me the part where a flower was. And that oil floats on top of water. These all seem like small things, but there are tons of things like that (that I never thought to teach him!!!) and he's learning about the world. And feels so happy and proud that he is learning new things. I'm glad these are things he's learning, even if it's at the expense of a heavier dose of phonics. Time for that next year when stuff gets "serious"! I love kindergarten!

[Surfside Academy]

SWB makes a great point in The Well Trained Mind that kids who miss phonics instruction often will hit a wall around 4th grade when the words in their reading materials becomes significantly more difficult. They can't rely on sight words and pictures to clue them in any longer. I'm curious how the public schools deal with this especially if they use a whole language program.

[Jenny in GA]

A book I found very very interesting talking about exactly why some school are adamently against teaching phonics is "Why Johnny Can't Read." I found the author's descriptions of the classrooms he visited to be very eye-opening.

 

Here is a blog post I wrote about the book and my initial reaction to it a few years ago.

 

And here is my follow-up post after I thought about it for a while.

[Jenny in GA]

A book I found very very interesting talking about exactly why some school are adamently against teaching phonics is "Why Johnny Can't Read." I found the author's descriptions of the classrooms he visited to be very eye-opening.

 

Here is a blog post I wrote about the book and my initial reaction to it a few years ago.

 

And here is my follow-up post after I thought about it for a while.

 

 

I wanted to add that, from my understanding, the main reasons phonics is shunned are:

 

- That's not how fluent readers read. We don't break down everything and sound every word out; therefore, it's silly and wrong to teach someone to read that way.

 

- It's sad and boring that a child would read things like "The fat cat sat on the mat." They should be reading something "real."

 

I actually have a Master's degree in Education with an emphasis in Language Arts. As a prereq, I had to take an undergraduate class on the teaching of reading.

 

I remember even while taking the class thinking, "Ya know, we spend all this time debating things like phonics and whole language, and sharing classroom experiences, and whether inventive spelling is a good thing, and talking about our favorite kids' books. But if someone brought me kid tomorrow and said, 'Teach him how to read,' I would have no idea how to go about or where to even start -- whether I was doing it with phonics OR whole language!"

 

(Especially whole language -- I couldn't make sense of what it actually WAS, other than reading a bunch of great books and sometimes "pointing out" a beginning letter sound here and there. Oh, and I specifically remember our Teaching Reading texbook saying "It a common myth that whole language teachers do not teach phonics. They do teach phonics!" I think that casual "pointing something out while reading it" is what they mean by "teaching phonics."

[Rod Everson]

The main reason every American school doesn't teach phonics first and foremost is that English is a relatively "messy" language. In countries that have a simpler spelling system (orthography), they always teach the phonics of their language. They wouldn't conceive of doing it any other way, because it's how print works. We code sounds, write them down in that code, and people are then supposed to decode the result and turn the print back into the spoken word.

 

But, as I said, English is messy. And that mess has been causing instructional confusion for well over 100 years now. Nevertheless, it's still a code system, even if the code is messy. What that means is that to teach the code well, you need a good system. For example, The Spalding Method is a good, thorough, system, so it works.

 

But not everyone uses a good system. In fact, most phonics programs in schools are relatively poor, confusing kids more than they help them. So teachers drift toward sight word teaching because it looks like it works, at least in the lower grades, with the smarter kids anyway.

 

Nevertheless, if you're going to consistently raise proficient readers, it's best to ensure that they have a good handle on how English works. The problem is that most adults don't have a very good handle on it either, so they have a hard time teaching it.

 

Along those lines, a while back I made up some phonogram flash cards that illustrate what I believe is the way the English code should be thought of by a child. There are 84 flashcards in a PDF that can be printed front and back. You can see a preview of them at Lulu.com here. (Just click the "preview" link under the picture to go through them all. And be patient, Lulu.com is a slow-loading site.)

 

Now, I'm not posting this to sell the flash cards. In fact, for a year I've been giving away free copies of the pdf, and I stated on my website at OnTrack Reading that I was going to give away another 50 sets. I do want to start selling them eventually, but I still have to meet my commitment to give away the free ones, so if anyone wants a free set after you've examined them the at Lulu.com, email me from the Contact button on my website and I'll send you a free set.

 

I should probably add that I taught about 200 kids the exact same phonograms on those 84 flashcards over the past decade, so they've been well-tested. They differ from Spalding's phonograms somewhat, but about 75% are the same. Actually the main difference is that I added some to get rid of her method of treating the "ending-e", but that's another long, long, story.

 

(I have no idea what sort of response this will generate, so let me specify that the offer's only good through, say, this Friday, Feb 3rd, or until I give away the 35 or so sets I have left of the 50 I was going to give away--I don't want to find I've committed to answering a thousand emails. I'll repost here if I run out, or want to extend the time period.)

[msk]

I would expect a child to be taught to read at school with no parental help or involvement.

 

I realize, most families are going to be involved to some extent, but learning to read should be the educators number one job and priority. You'll never read to learn if you can't read. jm2cents.

 

Either I am misunderstanding this, or we have different philosophies. I feel like my husband and I are the ones ultimately responsible for our 6yo's education, and sending her to school doesn't change that at all. If something isn't going as well as it could at school, we feel responsible for figuring it out and helping her until she gets it. Sure, she's at school for a good part of the day on weekdays, but she's still our kid!

 

If I were hiring a full time private teacher just for my daughter, I would not expect to have to help her with the nuts and bolts of learning, but at this age I would still want to have a good idea what was going on in her lessons and how she was doing. By sending my daughter to school, I have "hired" a teacher for 33 hours a week and then split that teacher 20 ways with other families. For that kind of an investment, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the teacher to ensure that my individual child learns reading, math, science, history, and writing at the level I expect unless I do whatever I can to help my daughter whenever she needs it. I feel like my daughter's education is one of my primary responsibilities as a parent, and sending her to public school does not shift that responsibility away from me at all.

 

I also feel weird having this conversation on a homeschooling forum, especially one where people regularly classify afterschooling as "just being a parent!"

[MistyMountain]

I was touring charter schools in my area and asking about how they teach reading. It is common to do all the steps but to do step 5 then step 4. The do phonics but they do more sight words in kindergarten and phonics in 1st grade. One school mentioned teaching reading through whole words. I didn't realize at the time that was a way of saying sight words. They said that the reasearch says that is the best way to teach. Some of the charters says that the regular schools use mcgrall hill or mcruffy or something like that. I am not sure what method that is. We do have one charter that is a back to basics school and they do phonics. It is one of the few half day schools and they use saxon phonics.

 

I still not 100% sure how I want to school but I still want to teach dd because it seems like they really push the sight words then get to phonics in first grade. She will be 7 by then. Now that I know more about curriculums I am not crazy with what even the good schools are doing. We hopefully won't live here by the time she in in kindergarten officially and I am leaning more and more towards homeschooling.

Edited February 1, 2012 by MistyMountain

[TracyR]

Phonics is something that takes time. Schools don't have that sort of time. Especially when they are pressed to measure up to the state standards. I think ps are adopting sight reading because it takes less time and the kids usually learn it quicker then having to take the time to sound things out.

Not saying all ps's are like this. But I've noticed the trend.

 

My sister's daughter who is austic , spent 2 yrs in K , and this was her first year of 1st grade. She had her pulled out due to the school. But the only words my niece could read was , and , the and is. That was it! All those years of her not learning to read. Now that my sister is learning to be a homeschool parent she realizes that she wasn't involved enough. In the month she's been home , she has progress wonderfully and is now reading more than just three words. She is reading the 1st grade Calvert books I gave my sister that I had. HUGE leap in just a month.

 

I on the other hand have taught my daughter using both methods and they are EXCELLENT readers. My 5yr old reads at least at a 2nd grade level right now. I taught using sight words first , and am backing track and teaching phonics.

[funschooler5]

:iagree:I feel like I'm doing most of the work. I have to make sure his handwriting is good. I have to make sure he knows his sight words. I have to make sure he knows how to sound it out. When I was in elementary school, we didn't have parental involvement at all. I'm not saying that that is the best set up but to me parental involvement meant knowing what your kids are doing in school and helping them to some extent. I feel like most of the learning is taking place at home and not in the schools. I might as well just pull him out and home school.

:iagree:

 

My older two were in school for three months (DD in grade 3, DS in grade 1). Especially for DS, I felt like I was doing almost as much work as when we were homeschooling! The amount of paperwork that came home was unbelievable. We'd always planned on their PS experience as being temporary, and the homework sealed the deal. (That, and the fact that it took the teacher 3 months before she realized DS could read. He was reading at home before he was enrolled, but they assessed him later like they were the ones who had taught him. :glare:

 

Nonsense words! Nonsense words stop the guessing.

 

:iagree:

 

I taught my older two to read using only magnetic letters. They loved it when I would make up ridiculously long nonsense words for them to sound out. Of course, they also made up words and had me sound them out, too. :)

 

It's taken my youngest a bit longer to get the hang of it, so I backed off for a bit. We're using Programmed Reading about 10 minutes a day a couple of days a week. She's recently just started reading *everything*. She's really taken off in the last few weeks. I guess I just had to wait until she was ready.

Edited February 1, 2012 by funschooler5

[GingerPoppy]

There are several theories and educational philosophies do not include phonics instruction. It is really very common.

In my state, you must be 5 by Sept. 1 to enter Kinder. School begins August 20, so while there are young 5 year olds, no one is 4 for more than a few days.

It depends where you are. In my country/province, you have to turn 5 by December 31, so my dd (who has a December birthday) was 4 starting kindergarten, and stayed 4 for three and a half months.