I am so sad to hear this about The Five Brown's

[mom2denj]

I have read about them in the past in a homeschool magazine. They are so incredibly talented and such a sweet family. I hate to hear this about them. How can a father do this to his own children, a monster! It is discusting and it goes to show it can happen in families that look so normal. I can't help but wonder, what the mom knew and what her place is now. So, so sad! They seem like they are doing really well.... I hope and pray that they continue to be successful and happy!

 

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/45596521#45596521

[MrsMe]

I have to wonder (and so does my DH) that are men not taught any control anymore? The sex, the abuse, even watching the news where they're all fighting in streets.

 

Sick society.

[Happy2BaMom]

I have to wonder (and so does my DH) that are men not taught any control anymore? The sex, the abuse, even watching the news where they're all fighting in streets.

You're kidding, right?

 

Sexual abuse has been around for centuries, and probably since the dawn of mankind. My mother grew up in the 40's and 50's, a very "controlled" era, in a very small town. Her next door neighbor routinely tried to get her to show him her panties, offered her money to do more than that. She had men who would pull alongside her when she was walking home from school and want her to get in the car. When she told my grandmother of these things, my grandmother believed her, because it turns out my grandmother was sexually abused by a family member when she was a child. On my father's side, I have an aunt who had to fight off a male cousin who tried to molest her when she was 11. One of my mother's best friends was sexually abused by a Catholic priest during that era. He (my mother's friend) later threw himself in front of a train (and died). There have been a number of conservative religious leaders who have been found to either be abusing their own children or participating in illicit sex.

 

There have been threads on this board that have discussed the amount of sexual abuse history various board members have had themselves, and in their families.

 

You may believe that men are no longer taught control , but a quick review of history is enough to prove that being taught control did nothing to stop sexual abuse.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Happy2BaMom

[gingersmom]

I was watching the news this morning and they mentioned the story was coming up and showed the family members. My first thought was it must be something awful but then they were all smiling away.

 

Its awful to hear. I still can't figure out why they were smiling though.

[LittleIzumi]

I was watching the news this morning and they mentioned the story was coming up and showed the family members. My first thought was it must be something awful but then they were all smiling away.

 

Its awful to hear. I still can't figure out why they were smiling though.

 

I'm sure they're used to smiling to the public through it.

Edited December 8, 2011 by LittleIzumi

[MrsMe]

You're kidding, right?

 

Sexual abuse has been around for centuries, and probably since the dawn of mankind. My mother grew up in the 40's and 50's, a very "controlled" era, in a very small town. Her next door neighbor routinely tried to get her to show him her panties, offered her money to do more than that. She had men who would pull alongside her when she was walking home from school and want her to get in the car. When she told my grandmother of these things, my grandmother believed her, because it turns out my grandmother was sexually abused by a family member when she was a child. On my father's side, I have an aunt who had to fight off a male cousin who tried to molest her when she was 11. One of my mother's best friends was sexually abused by a Catholic priest during that era. He (my mother's friend) later threw himself in front of a train (and died). There have been a number of conservative religious leaders who have been found to either be abusing their own children or participating in illicit sex.

 

There have been threads on this board that have discussed the amount of sexual abuse history various board members have had themselves, and in their families.

 

You may believe that men are no longer taught control , but a quick review of history is enough to prove that being taught control did nothing to stop sexual abuse.

 

Well, no I'm not kidding. We're in an era that if it feels good do it and it's becoming more rampant because of that thought process. I'm not saying it would stop it, but it certainly has increased.

[LittleIzumi]

Well, no I'm not kidding. We're in an era that if it feels good do it and it's becoming more rampant because of that thought process. I'm not saying it would stop it, but it certainly has increased.

 

Has it really increased, or do we just talk about it more/acknowledge it publicly more (as part of that loss of the appearance of control)?

[Guest]

That's terribly sad. I enjoy the 5 Browns.

[MrsMe]

Has it really increased, or do we just talk about it more/acknowledge it publicly more (as part of that loss of the appearance of control)?

 

Both. With the "do it because it feels good" era and the lack of respect and responsiblity that came with not hurting "Johnny's self esteem era" people post everything everywhere and it's all okay or so they think. It all morphs into what we have now. It's all a piece of the puzzle. Facebook and texting are a prime example of doing both on a small level.

[Wolfmeis]

Well, no I'm not kidding. We're in an era that if it feels good do it and it's becoming more rampant because of that thought process. I'm not saying it would stop it, but it certainly has increased.

 

I so don't agree with you. History is full of this. It hasn't increased; we're more aware of it and the victims have more power to bring things to light.

[MamaSheep]

I was watching the news this morning and they mentioned the story was coming up and showed the family members. My first thought was it must be something awful but then they were all smiling away.

 

Its awful to hear. I still can't figure out why they were smiling though.

 

I'm sure they're used to smiling to the public through it.

 

Remember that for them this is not something that's new and shocking and raw, or some new catastrophe that just happened and they're trying to cope with it. They've been dealing with it for a long time. It looked to me as if they've come to grips with it and are moving forward with peace and trying to help others who are going through the same kind of thing. I think sometimes we get the idea that traumatic things like this have to make you miserable for the rest of your life and you will never be able to be happy again. But that's not actually the case. Yes, it will always be there, nothing is going to make it go away. But healing is not unhealthy. It's ok to smile, even if you have scars.

[dangermom]

Well, no I'm not kidding. We're in an era that if it feels good do it and it's becoming more rampant because of that thought process. I'm not saying it would stop it, but it certainly has increased.

 

I have to disagree. The Romans were big into self-control, and very big into things I won't describe here because they're too horrifying.

 

I'm not at all convinced that sexual abuse of children is becoming more common.

[amey311]

Has it really increased, or do we just talk about it more/acknowledge it publicly more (as part of that loss of the appearance of control)?

 

I'm not sure statistics bore out the idea that certain things have increased. I know this is covered in "Protecting the Gift."

 

I'm also willing to bet that certain kinds of abuse, especially that contained within families was "managed" by the family - either by banishment ("get out of here or we'll kill you ourselves" or by forced sublimation (?? that might not be the right term - but basically telling the victim to ignore the abuse and eventually it will stop, or to just not think about it) or something similar. Family problems, especially in spread out communities were handled (or not) internally.

 

The 24 hour news cycle has made much of this more public. 100 years ago, people in Philadelphia might not care about what was happening to a family in California - or have reason to know about it.

 

ETA: an article said the abuse started before the girls turned 14. one of them is 32. That's 18+ years ago (depending on how much before 14 it started). You seriously can't blame "not learning control" on something that started nearly 20 years ago. He's 55. That means he started this when he was 30. Born in 1956. Were people learning "to control themselves" then? If so, why couldn't he?

Edited December 8, 2011 by amey311

[Lisbeth]

I think the history of children has been one of a lot of abuse, sexual or otherwise. I read a paper not long ago which traces the awful history of childhood through the ages.

 

I don't think this is any way new or increased. Horrifying and beyond words, but not new.

[mom2denj]

Remember that for them this is not something that's new and shocking and raw, or some new catastrophe that just happened and they're trying to cope with it. They've been dealing with it for a long time. It looked to me as if they've come to grips with it and are moving forward with peace and trying to help others who are going through the same kind of thing. I think sometimes we get the idea that traumatic things like this have to make you miserable for the rest of your life and you will never be able to be happy again. But that's not actually the case. Yes, it will always be there, nothing is going to make it go away. But healing is not unhealthy. It's ok to smile, even if you have scars.

:iagree:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

IMO, sexual abuse has NOT increased. People are just more willing to talk about it, which is a good thing.

 

Lack of control?! Really? If my DH had unlimited power he STILL wouldn't rape kids. Why? Because he doesn't feel the need to wield power and control over a victim-be they a child, the elderly, animals or the physically or mentally incapacitated. A normal healthy person doesn't just decide to rape and molest people just because 'society is out of control', there has to be pathology there.

[delaney]

Why is it that the dad's of these prominent, talented families go down this road? Is it the domination factor that drives the kids to excellence as well the dad to abuse his kids? I first thought of the Jacksons and then all of the other child stars that have come forward with terrible stories. Perhaps what the eccentric nature of the families genes are coming through(positively in the children and negatively in the kids)?

[mom2denj]

Why is it that the dad's of these prominent, talented families go down this road? Is it the domination factor that drives the kids to excellence as well the dad to abuse his kids? I first thought of the Jacksons and then all of the other child stars that have come forward with terrible stories. Perhaps what the eccentric nature of the families genes are coming through(positively in the children and negatively in the kids)?

This is interesting!

[Laura Corin]

Has it really increased, or do we just talk about it more/acknowledge it publicly more (as part of that loss of the appearance of control)?

 

I read a report which showed that the statistics for stranger abduction had not changed over decades. We hear more about it now, but the incidence has not increased. Unlike in-family sexual abuse, stranger abduction is not a statistic which will be affected by differences in reporting due to changing moral attitudes.

 

Laura

[gardenmom5]

You're kidding, right?

 

Sexual abuse has been around for centuries, and probably since the dawn of mankind. My mother grew up in the 40's and 50's, a very "controlled" era, in a very small town.

 

 

and my grandmother grew up in the 10's/20's in a very rural farming community in MO. some of the girls were sexually abused by their father. I really think my grandmother was one. .

 

You get into reading classical greek and roman histories - it was going on then.

Edited December 8, 2011 by gardenmom5

[MrsMe]

IMO, sexual abuse has NOT increased. People are just more willing to talk about it, which is a good thing.

 

Lack of control?! Really? If my DH had unlimited power he STILL wouldn't rape kids. Why? Because he doesn't feel the need to wield power and control over a victim-be they a child, the elderly, animals or the physically or mentally incapacitated. A normal healthy person doesn't just decide to rape and molest people just because 'society is out of control', there has to be pathology there.

 

If my DH had unlimited power he would never do those things either. What I'm saying is that in this feel good society, do what feels best, what makes you feel good, let it all out, don't hurt Johnny's self esteem, we've created a society (from early on) where the the lines of right, wrong, privacy, abuse has not been taught as it used to be. There definitely was several eras of keeping things under tabs and I'm not necessary talking about sexual abuse but in every day living, appropriate actions, as well as definite right and wrong, sex, etc, etc.

 

The lines of what is acceptable are so blurred now and it's wreaking havoc on our society. What was unacceptable years ago has no comparison to what is acceptable now. So in this sense, there's no control. Some of it's because it's readily available. It's an attitude of it's all okay, who's it going to hurt. This thinking morphs into more and more of what used to be unacceptable behavior more acceptable. A good example, the garbage on TV! Think about what was acceptable 20 years ago to what is deemed "normal" now. It makes me cringe!

 

I'm not saying to sweep things under the rug, but when a society has gone as down hill as it has, because of the lack of discipline (which includes teaching boys proper behavior) this is what you're going to get as a whole. Women too!

 

In this particular case, I don't know why this man did this. I don't know his background. And of course there are acceptions to every rule. But as a general concensus (and maybe not in this case or all cases, but generally), the more lax on disciplining children, this is the type of society your going to get. I'm talking of all areas.

 

I also agree that people like this really have a screw loose and they have for ages! I agree it hasn't changed. But what makes it different now it what is now deemed normal behavior among men (and women). It's sickening. The more the behavior is plastered all over every network or tech gadget, the more attention it gives it and it becomes something normal. And no this guy isn't normal, but really, this doesn't surprise me.

 

But I think you're misunderstanding me in what I mean by lack of control. People do things because they can. They've not learned any sort of control. Because parents are dropping the ball on a huge level (in teaching self control, right/wrong, acceptable behavior, privacy, and on, and on....), TV and Hollywood and society as a hole as given up their parental rights to let these outlets raise their children and because some people are just plain sick.

[redsquirrel]

Women have been asking men for centuries to please not beat or rape us or our children.

 

Centuries.

 

The patriarchy has been doing what it wants to woman and children for a long, long time.

 

Nothing new here other than every now and then one of them gets caught and even more rarely gets held a little bit accountable.

[amey311]

But I think you're misunderstanding me in what I mean by lack of control. People do things because they can. They've not learned any sort of control.

 

Just to recap. This man was born in 1956. So, his parents were born in, say, the late 30s. Your "no one learns control" comment would imply that he wasn't learning those things well before people were letting "hollywood" raise their children.

 

Sexual abuse of children is not related to societal influence. Men don't do this because Hollywood tells them they can, or because Mommy didn't want to hurt his feelings and make him clean up his toys. This kind of thing has been happening since ancient times.

 

You're arguing two different things.

[In2why]

IMO, sexual abuse has NOT increased. People are just more willing to talk about it, which is a good thing.

 

Lack of control?! Really? If my DH had unlimited power he STILL wouldn't rape kids. Why? Because he doesn't feel the need to wield power and control over a victim-be they a child, the elderly, animals or the physically or mentally incapacitated. A normal healthy person doesn't just decide to rape and molest people just because 'society is out of control', there has to be pathology there.

 

 

I started to write, but luckily I kept reading because you said what I was feeling. This has nothing to do with control or lack of control, or even "the feel good" era. No one in our society approves of sexual abuse of children. It isn't something that can be controlled or not, it is a sickness that can't be cured.

[MrsMe]

Just to recap. This man was born in 1956. So, his parents were born in, say, the late 30s. Your "no one learns control" comment would imply that he wasn't learning those things well before people were letting "hollywood" raise their children.

 

Sexual abuse of children is not related to societal influence. Men don't do this because Hollywood tells them they can, or because Mommy didn't want to hurt his feelings and make him clean up his toys. This kind of thing has been happening since ancient times.

 

You're arguing two different things.

 

LOL...yes, I'm arguing many things. And yes, as I stated, the guy has a screw loose. But our society is not helping in acceptablity.

 

But I do think parents need to teach their child self control in ALL areas. I don't see this very often...really. On the other hand, I also know that I did read that studies show that crime is more reported than it used to be so it appears it happens more and it's not. So then we get into what criteria did they use for studies and what crime?

 

When I see what now seems to be acceptable all over facebook and phones in a sexual manner and the fact that nobody talked much about sex when they could (2 different media types here), there was a standard on acceptability. There are none. In this way society is definitely worse, but it just doesn't appear as noticable. But I'll bet sexual crimes are up, maybe not this type, but in general.

[T'smom]

If my DH had unlimited power he would never do those things either. What I'm saying is that in this feel good society, do what feels best, what makes you feel good, let it all out, don't hurt Johnny's self esteem, we've created a society (from early on) where the the lines of right, wrong, privacy, abuse has not been taught as it used to be. There definitely was several eras of keeping things under tabs and I'm not necessary talking about sexual abuse but in every day living, appropriate actions, as well as definite right and wrong, sex, etc, etc.

 

The lines of what is acceptable are so blurred now and it's wreaking havoc on our society. What was unacceptable years ago has no comparison to what is acceptable now. So in this sense, there's no control. Some of it's because it's readily available. It's an attitude of it's all okay, who's it going to hurt. This thinking morphs into more and more of what used to be unacceptable behavior more acceptable. A good example, the garbage on TV! Think about what was acceptable 20 years ago to what is deemed "normal" now. It makes me cringe!

 

I'm not saying to sweep things under the rug, but when a society has gone as down hill as it has, because of the lack of discipline (which includes teaching boys proper behavior) this is what you're going to get as a whole. Women too!

 

In this particular case, I don't know why this man did this. I don't know his background. And of course there are acceptions to every rule. But as a general concensus (and maybe not in this case or all cases, but generally), the more lax on disciplining children, this is the type of society your going to get. I'm talking of all areas.

 

I also agree that people like this really have a screw loose and they have for ages! I agree it hasn't changed. But what makes it different now it what is now deemed normal behavior among men (and women). It's sickening. The more the behavior is plastered all over every network or tech gadget, the more attention it gives it and it becomes something normal. And no this guy isn't normal, but really, this doesn't surprise me.

 

But I think you're misunderstanding me in what I mean by lack of control. People do things because they can. They've not learned any sort of control. Because parents are dropping the ball on a huge level (in teaching self control, right/wrong, acceptable behavior, privacy, and on, and on....), TV and Hollywood and society as a hole as given up their parental rights to let these outlets raise their children and because some people are just plain sick.

 

I don't really understand your post. I think child molesters are more likely to be held accountable now than in any time in the past. And I really don't think that anything on prime time TV caused this guy to do this.

People do things because they can? Like rape children? Because they can? Because their parents didn't teach them right and wrong? Or privacy? I think not keeping things as private as they have been in the past is holding more molesters accountable. In the past, the victims wouldn't have spoken up. Lots still aren't. But at least there are more that are.

[KatieH]

How terribly sad :(

[elegantlion]

LOL...yes, I'm arguing many things. And yes, as I stated, the guy has a screw loose. But our society is not helping in acceptablity.

 

But I do think parents need to teach their child self control in ALL areas. I don't see this very often...really. On the other hand, I also know that I did read that studies show that crime is more reported than it used to be so it appears it happens more and it's not. So then we get into what criteria did they use for studies and what crime?

 

When I see what now seems to be acceptable all over facebook and phones in a sexual manner and the fact that nobody talked much about sex when they could (2 different media types here), there was a standard on acceptability. There are none. In this way society is definitely worse, but it just doesn't appear as noticable. But I'll bet sexual crimes are up, maybe not this type, but in general.

 

 

From what I understand, which I admit is limited, sexual abuse is not about sex. It is about power and control.

 

Even in a sexualized society preying on children and women is not acceptable. Looking at a pair of boobs or watching a show where everyone is getting some does not drive people to sexually abuse a person.

[amey311]

When I see what now seems to be acceptable all over facebook and phones in a sexual manner and the fact that nobody talked much about sex when they could (2 different media types here), there was a standard on acceptability. There are none. In this way society is definitely worse, but it just doesn't appear as noticable. But I'll bet sexual crimes are up, maybe not this type, but in general.

 

I'm suddenly reminded of being in Spain for a semester in 1993. My host mother actually said, "Things were better when Franco was in charge. Girls couldn't wear these short skirts, and there wasn't so much sex on TV." Apparently she was willing to cope with a military dictator if it meant there was less sex on TV?

[J-rap]

The lines of what is acceptable are so blurred now and it's wreaking havoc on our society. What was unacceptable years ago has no comparison to what is acceptable now. So in this sense, there's no control. Some of it's because it's readily available. It's an attitude of it's all okay, who's it going to hurt. This thinking morphs into more and more of what used to be unacceptable behavior more acceptable. A good example, the garbage on TV! Think about what was acceptable 20 years ago to what is deemed "normal" now. It makes me cringe!

 

I'm not saying to sweep things under the rug, but when a society has gone as down hill as it has, because of the lack of discipline (which includes teaching boys proper behavior) this is what you're going to get as a whole. Women too!

 

Since the beginning of time, societies have cycled through many variations of promiscuous, crude and horrendous behavior, even worse than what is going on here and now.

 

I know that's not the main point of this thread. What happened to the Brown children and so many other children is absolutely horrible.

[amey311]

I'm posting a lot because this conversation has so many directions.

 

I don't think it's necessarily bad that people talk about sex. We have discussions about it here (and generally, I consider this board to be conservative in tone). It makes a difference. Women and men aren't being silent about that part of their health, and generally that's a good thing. There is sound information available about human s3zuality (there - I spelled it weird for googlebot avoidance). There are solutions to problems that people simply didn't talk about before (things that probably could've been solved even then - so it's not a medical advances things).

 

Related to this situation, it's a VERY good thing that sexual abuse is more talked about. Children don't have to grow up thinking that every dad does this with his daughters. Women learn that her date paying for dinner doesn't means he's entitled to something more than a "thank you." Women can learn that sex doesn't have to lead to pregnancy if that's not what they want (i'm not getting into a quiverfull discussion).

 

You can't start waving the "it's all society's fault" flag unless you also won't complain when someone's arrested for shooting up a Quickie Mart and blames it on playing Call of Duty or whatever. You can't have it both ways. if you say that loosey-goosey morals and too much MTV makes for criminals, then you consider than an acceptable defense. it's not - MTV doesn't make someone a criminal - criminals predate television.

[amey311]

If you think that not watching TV or movies or having a Facebook account or texting is what's going to keep your children on the straight and narrow, then super. Just like the people who say the only reason they don't kill people is because the Bible says it's a sin. If that's what keeps you law abiding, then I'd like you to keep doing what you're doing.

[Trish]

I so don't agree with you. History is full of this. It hasn't increased; we're more aware of it and the victims have more power to bring things to light.

 

That we're more aware is a given.

 

But on what basis do we suppose it hasn't increased? the number of sexual stimulants in society seems to have gone WAY up. I'm amazed at what is shown on regular TV now, not to mention what you can apparently see in an Abercrombie and Fitch store at the mall. Between that and the widespread ubiquitousness of porn of all types, it's hard to picture that this type of behavior could NOT have increased.

 

Unless you think there's no relationship at all between what people watch/see/avail themselves of, and what they do.

[amey311]

That we're more aware is a given.

 

But on what basis do we suppose it hasn't increased? the number of sexual stimulants in society seems to have gone WAY up. I'm amazed at what is shown on regular TV now, not to mention what you can apparently see in an Abercrombie and Fitch store at the mall. Between that and the widespread ubiquitousness of porn of all types, it's hard to picture that this type of behavior could NOT have increased.

 

Unless you think there's no relationship at all between what people watch/see/avail themselves of, and what they do.

 

Versus knowing where the whore houses were or that children weren't supposed to go in to some business? http://www.thethinkingblog.com/2008/02/prostitution-story-of-oldest-profession.html (IMAGES ARE NSFW, possibly - they're historical images).

[MamaSheep]

Women have been asking men for centuries to please not beat or rape us or our children.

 

Centuries.

 

The patriarchy has been doing what it wants to woman and children for a long, long time.

 

Nothing new here other than every now and then one of them gets caught and even more rarely gets held a little bit accountable.

 

 

This is a VAST oversimplification and overgeneralization. Not all men are perpetrators and not all women and children are helpless, innocent victims. Many good men have fought and died to protect women and children--and other men--from abuse. Many good men protect and rescue women and children from abusers all the time. Some women are also perpetrators of sexual offenses. A corrupt patriarchy can certainly oppress women and children (and other men). A corrupt matriarchy can do the same thing. A benevolent matriarchy might protect women and children (and hopefully men?) from abuse. A benevolent patriarchy is capbable of this also. You're painting with a very broad brush.

[Wolfmeis]

That we're more aware is a given.

 

But on what basis do we suppose it hasn't increased? the number of sexual stimulants in society seems to have gone WAY up. I'm amazed at what is shown on regular TV now, not to mention what you can apparently see in an Abercrombie and Fitch store at the mall. Between that and the widespread ubiquitousness of porn of all types, it's hard to picture that this type of behavior could NOT have increased.

 

 

I really don't think so. It's part of the ebb and flow a pp spoke about. America in particular has always been a bit prudish, and I think that it's finally "loosening up" a bit. Whether you or I think that is a good thing is irrelevant; historically, sex and violence (child rape is still rape, which is still about violence, not sexuality) have always been perpetuated.

 

Good men are good men, no matter their historical time frame.

 

For every "sex is more available digitally via technology" I read, I can counter that with "religious / education / arts / food communities are more available digitally via technology." Technology is a tool and it is used by the people who wield it.

 

Unless you think there's no relationship at all between what people watch/see/avail themselves of, and what they do.

 

I absolutely think that there is, absolutely. But people choose who and what they want to be, even people who have had horrible things happen to them. It's how they use the tools that shapes their lives.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I'm suddenly reminded of being in Spain for a semester in 1993. My host mother actually said, "Things were better when Franco was in charge. Girls couldn't wear these short skirts, and there wasn't so much sex on TV." Apparently she was willing to cope with a military dictator if it meant there was less sex on TV?

 

People in Panama said the same thing about Noriega. They used to say, "You never saw poor people begging in the streets when Noriega was in power". :glare:

 

Just because something is less visible doesn't mean that it is less REAL.